465520 Sat Dec 01 17:25:09 -0800 2007 6 19 Outer Boroughs 0 3171472 I know we've been there, done that before, and I've even started a thread before. Here's the background -- I've lived in Park Slope for about 5 years. I've waxed and waned about joining the Coop but always decided against it in the end. But two kids later, groceries are getting incredibly expensive and besides, the produce along 7th Ave is pretty gross. So after doing lots of research, my husband and I decided to go for it. We've been there about a month and, well, I'm not sure I get it. I know I'll get a lot of "then just leave" responses, but honestly, I'm trying to understand. The work didn't offend me as much as I had anticipated and the people have been just fine (I was very concerned about the People's Republic of Organica militia mentality.) Here's my issue -- all I heard about was the produce, the produce, the produce. Maybe because I didn't join in the summer, but it's really just meh. They even had moldy strawberries the other day. And no matter what day I go, what time I go, it's packed. It's super difficult to navigate between the shoppers and the workers stocking shelves (yet they're often out of stock on things) and I usually end up forgetting half of what I need or just being too stressed to try to find it. And here's the thing to understand -- I go to Trader Joe's in Union Square all the time, I used to live on the UWS and braved Fairway on Saturdays all the time. I am no pansy when it comes to crazy shopping experiences. But this place is small and hectic and, I don't know, it's just really frustrating to me. And here's the kicker -- I may be alone in this opinion, but...I don't think the prices are really that great. I just looked up what I got on Fresh Direct. Some of it was a lot cheaper, much of it was a little cheaper, but some of it was actually more expensive at the Coop. WTF? We don't have a car, so to go to Fairway in Red Hook is basically $20 in car service fees if I'm lucky, so that's an option, but not the greatest one. Still, that may make more sense than this place. After writing this, I'm thinking I will probably quit, but I guess I'm still wondering -- am I missing something or is it really the Emperor's New Clothes? I mean, is the only pull the fact that you're helping the environment, local farmers, etc? Because I do believe that's a noble cause, but since we both work fulltime and have two young kids, I'd rather give some money to Farmaid or something. Seriously, I'm not trying to start anything here. I just want to understand. If you hung in through my long winded monologue, thanks! Sat Dec 01 17:25:09 -0800 2007 40624 vvv03 1 3171733 We actually went through some steps to join a few years ago to support better food choices for our (then) vegan daughter. However, I found it to be a over-complicated bureaucratic place which tended toward tiny packages and offered with few advantantages foodwise over other neighborhood shops, the farmers market (better produce), Sahadi, etc.. What is it you are having a hard time finding in the neighborhood? Maybe someone can recommend. Sat Dec 01 20:04:18 -0800 2007 3171472 11130 jen kalb 1 3172103 When I was on a suspension from the co-op after 5 years, I had the epiphany that buying groceries should be a god-given right; I shouldn't have to work in order to be able to go to the store to get a dozen eggs. The producer does get better during the year; we've all gotten very used to having whatever produce we want whenever we want it, but I'm guessing the co-op adopts a more ecologically friendly stance, which is not to buy anything that is out of season and thus has to be shipped in from another country off season (except bananas, perhaps). I do think the prices are better at the co-op, but there are definite downsides, and it's not for everyone. When i joined, we didn't have fairway (which does deliver to PS, by the way, for $5), didn't have Whole Foods on the F line (and obviously the one to come). I get my produce at the farmers' markets in the neighborhood. A neighbor and founding co-op'er also mentioned to me last week that it's actually not so cheap, once you factor in the cost for your time. That is, if I billed those 2.75 hours at my normal rate, that adds a lot to my co-op bill and actually makes it more expensive than shopping anywhere else. Sun Dec 02 04:26:54 -0800 2007 3171472 73451 bebevonbernstein 1 3174757 It is winter; therefore the produce is not the best of the year. The best produce is naturally May through September. The Coop and the farmer's market share many suppliers, but you'll get a significant discount at the Coop. Best shopping strategies: go in the morning on weekends, near closing on weeknights. Whenever there's a storm or something, the coop is empty. I have a nine-to-five job, and would never go to the coop after work or late afternoon, evening on the weekends. Mon Dec 03 07:31:45 -0800 2007 3171472 15750 Mandymac 1 3174779 Greetings All: My mother send me a link to this thread, thinking I might be interested and, even though I'd run from a PSFC General Meeting, I do actually have some thoughts about why I'm a member. I completely respect the views all writers have outlined in their responses. I think that the produce is usually awesome, but yes, those moldy strawberries were disgusting (and expensive)! Shopping in the grid-lock crowds is crazy and can be taxing on the nerves. Yes also, they do sometimes employ non-eco-friendly packaging. However, I do love the co-op and my love, I believe, goes beyond the food and the shopping experience. I love my workshift; childcare. I love that this is a place that thought childcare was a good idea and took up a large chunk of their obviously valuable and much needed real-estate to make it happen. I love that the PSFC only marks their goods up by 20%, as opposed to the ~ 200% of supermarkets, because of the member-as-worker system. I love that even though I sometimes wish the aisles contained traffic lights to help with the weekend congestion, no one is ever cross, or rude and mostly navigate the mess with a smile. I love their dogged support of Hepworth farms and the trumping of minimally treated local, to imported organic. I love the clothing swaps, the member movies, the non-NYC plastic recycling and the orange vested workers who amicably walk me to the bus on 5th Ave. I live in Sunset Park and travel to and from the co-op isn’t easy, but even if I’m in line for 20 minutes, I value grassroots ethics and community the PSFC has created in the city. Mon Dec 03 07:40:24 -0800 2007 3171472 26963 JenAriel 2 3174948 where did you get the 200% stat from? It's always been my understanding that most supermarkets have a profit margin of from 2%-4% and do not mark up the goods drastically--it may be the wholesaler who does that. but i could also be dead wrong. just wondering. I am not a member of the PSFC and have no desire to join, but your post i think clarifies some of the issues. people shouldn't join because they want good (ie. local, organic), cheap food--there are other places to get that in brooklyn. people should join because they philisophically support the concept of PSFC and it's ideals. Otherwise, the inconvenience and costs (ie. shift time) are just not worth it. And the PSFC should really only want new members who share the philisophy and are committed. Otherwise, the place gets packed with people who are unhappy and the co-op stops being the place it can and should be. which is what i think all the bureaucratic, over-complicated stuff (as jen put it) is good at weeding out. only those who are truly committed will/should end up staying. Mon Dec 03 08:35:06 -0800 2007 3174779 12221 missmasala 3 3200862 Supermarkets have both a low profit margin and a high markup, because the expense of running the store adds up. But the 200% figure cannot be across the board. We can use algebra to determine the typical supermarket markup: PSFC's markup is 22% and it's 30-40% cheaper than other stores. So if something costs $1 wholesale, PSFC sells it for $1.22 and other stores sell it for between (1.22 * 1.3) and (1.22 * 1.4) = between $1.58 to $1.70, so the average markup will be closer to 60-70%. Of course this varies by item - loss leaders will have a negative markup, and there probably will be specific items that are marked up by as much as 200% to compensate. Wed Dec 12 06:19:12 -0800 2007 3174948 94978 hautepanda