463581 Sun Nov 25 14:57:12 -0800 2007 15 29 Not About Food 0 3153586 I just started working at a community dining program, and I am finding it extremely difficult throwing out food that isn't used. Sometimes its Huge amounts, and I know that I can't really use it at home, but still the thought of just throwing it out is unbearable. It came to the point today where I had two large clamshells full of diced raw potatoes, a large tupperware full of soup, and another clamshell filled with roasted potatoes ready to take home with me before my coworker felt sorry for me and took one of the diced potatoes. Am I being ridiculous? Sun Nov 25 14:57:12 -0800 2007 10797 beany 1 3153633 The question is not whether you're being ridiculous, but what would you do with all the food? Another way to look at your dilemma might be to consider how much food in total was served. Is it possible that the amount of food you're throwing away would only equate with a forkful on a single plate that you'd think nothing of rinsing down the drain on that scale? As Einstein said, everything is relative. Sun Nov 25 15:21:07 -0800 2007 3153586 112096 Caroline1 2 3154555 If I sound flip above, I didn't mean to be. I am concerned about passing along the soup (presumably open in a kettle) and the roasted potatoes. The raw potatoes will presumably be cooked before using. Salmonella and other forms of food poisoning are always on my mind. The worst possible scenario I can imagine is a bunch of homeless people contracting a diarrhea inducing bug from well intentioned but contaminated food. Roasted potatoes? Not more than five years ago -- maybe less -- a favorite Greek restaurant was closed down because they left foil wrapped baked potatoes on a counter over night and made skordalia with them in the morning. They felt the potatoes were still too hot to refrigerate when they closed. That didn't result in salmonella. It resulted in botulism! One person died, many were seriously ill. I'm also assuming that this food was prepared on site, then left out during the serving time? I just might be one of psb's "super greens," what with all energy star appliances, no aerosols (fluorocarbon free or not), no freon, CFLs in nearly every light socket in the house, I recycle, and anything else I can think of to do my part for the planet, BUT... I have absolutely no qualms about throwing away food that may, in any way, bring harm to others. Mon Nov 26 03:34:44 -0800 2007 3153633 112096 Caroline1 1 3153639 i'm procastinating on some work so, here goes ... >Am I being ridiculous? > I dont think so at all. In fact I think people who blithely throw away food with the rationale "well, i paid for it, and it's not like i can send it to darfur" miss the point that not all of life is "strictly rational" ... there is pathos as well as logos, you might say, if you want to put a greek turn on it. an example borrowed from "philosophy class" is ... say you were alertly driving the speed limit in a car of well-repair, and a child runs out from behind a car and you run him over. no reasonable person would rationalize that as "i didnt everything i could ... stuff happens ... there is no reason i should 'feel bad'." in fact even if you were walking down the other side of the street and had no involvement in the accident, we'd still consider you somewhat sociopathic if you immediately thought "i couldnt do anything about this, i dont know any of the principles, why should i feel bad? ok i dont feel bad. i think i'll get a chocolate truffle now." you may wish to see e.g. Bernard William's influential essay "Moral Luck", in particlar p.27ff, the discussion of agent/spectator regret. on a personal note, i think i do live life differently after travelling in poorer countries. not just in terms of really being averse to throwing away food, but "decandent" expenses in geneal ... say high end wine. i dont lecture other people about this kind of thing, and i realize there is a huge arbitrary component to this [occasional $10 cocktail or foie gras ok, massages or +$200 bottles of wine -> decadent]. i think there is a somewhat convoluted way to partially defend this, but that a philosophical detour way beyond CH. what is ridiculous are the SuperGreens who recycle and engage in other nickle and diming conservation ... often quite sanctimoniously ... but otherwise live highly consumptive [not necessarily evaluated by pollution impact] and decadent lifestyles [i think the book has it's flaws, and i dont like david brooks, but for a sense of this, see his Bobos in Paradise book]. ok tnx. Sun Nov 25 15:22:45 -0800 2007 3153586 16770 psb 1 3153657 You're not being ridiculous. You just hate the waste. As most of us should in an overly wasteful society. However, you may be crossing an ethical line taking the food home. Questions like: can this food be used in another dish? can this food be saved for tomorrow? can this food be donated somehow? should be rolling around in the discourse among coworkers. I don't know your program setup, of course, but I would think that the best and most ethical approach is to talk to the supervisors/directors of the program and bring your concerns to them. Perhaps you could even spearhead an initiative to take care of the surplus food in a way that is neither unethical nor wasteful. You certainly don't sound as if you're in this for something free, so don't mistake my ethics comments as being directed toward you, please. I think the ethics of maximizing the food use is important, and if you're willing to take the initiative to address the issue with those managing your program, I would applaud you heartily. Good luck! Sun Nov 25 15:30:39 -0800 2007 3153586 49525 cayjohan 2 3153800 Thanks to everyone for the replies so far. Something funny happened soon after I posted. We found out two people in our community are under the weather. So we used the potatoes for a curry and gave some of it away, I made a roux and added some chicken to the soup, and gave away most of it, and at the same time, used up some older rice and made chicken/shrimp fried rice and made some nice take outs for these families. More than 2/3s of it was given away to people who would not have had a proper meal tonight otherwise. On a weekday, if there is leftover food, we bring it back to the office and if it can be used at another program it is, and if not, other staff members gobble it up. Both my coworker and I are new to this job, so we are resisting some of the habits of the old staff member. The problem with giving leftovers away to clients is it can be come a cycle that we can't support and it is also unfair to other clients who may have left early, or whatever it is. Concepts like Second Harvest are a sticky situation because of legal issues and then it becomes something more than wrapping it up and taking it home. I know this has to do with portioning, and deciding how much to pack for a program but it is extremely difficult to do. We always ask for reservations, but at least 1/3 show up unannounced. These are seniors, and part of the rationale of the program is to be able to provide at least one hot meal during the course of the day. Today's program was an "All you can eat brunch". We had 35 clients, and packed for 40, because thats what we had last time. But even with planning, you can't account for taste. Sometimes when I'm on my way to the car, I feel like I may appear to be greedy, but then when I think about it more, its harder to think of food with NOTHING wrong with it going into the garbage can. I guess I just need to know if my issues with food make sense or if I have to get over it and get used to throwing some food out sometimes. Cayjohan, lol trust me this job is definitely not about the money! Thanks for listening. Sun Nov 25 16:32:21 -0800 2007 3153657 10797 beany 3 3153886 I have the same "issues with food" - can't bear to see it go to waste if I know that somebody, somewhere can use it. I do a lot of events and have a list in my head of who can make use of what. At the end of the event, the leftovers get packed up and I deliver them to the right place. Not everybody can use the same things. The people who prepare food for immune-compromised patients can't take anything that has been opened - no partial platters. Only sealed containers. I have too many of those to throw out. The men's Mission will take almost anything. Even one or two sandwiches for people who come in the middle of the night from the cold. That clamshell of raw potatoes you were going to pitch will be hash browns or home fries the next day. A couple of bags of lettuce is tomorrow's salad. Baked goods might find their way to the police station for midnight munchies. Leftover meat or the roasted potatoes to the firehouse where the guys chip in for groceries since they prepare their own meals during their 24-hour shifts. We don't pay our First Responders that well and they're happy to get it. The teachers' lounge at the local public school always welcomes snacks. We've even taken left-over sandwich trays to heating grates in winter for homeless guys who were delighted with an impromptu tailgate on the back of an SUV. They're always happy to get fruit and things they can put into their pockets for later. If you do this, have some small plastic bags for them. There are many small programs - not as big as yours - that can make creative use of small amounts of leftovers that help them stretch budgets that depend on charitable giving. We should always try to pass on what we can, if we can, rather than let it go to waste. Each of them will know what they're allowed to accept and how they can use it. Once you build a list of recipients, you'll be able to waste very little. Sun Nov 25 17:07:56 -0800 2007 3153800 32444 MakingSense 4 3154388 Wow thank you for the ideas! I seriously never would have thought of all the options that really are available. I will definitely keep them in mind next time it happens :) Sun Nov 25 21:29:53 -0800 2007 3153886 10797 beany 3 3154192 beany, I hope I didn't come off too strident - I know it's not about the money; I so hope I did not offend! You have issues to deal with the most people don't - heck, we've all been worrying in the boards for the past couple of weeks on how to plan for our holiday guests in our homes. Your planning needs extend much further! (Kinda puts in in perspective for the rest of us, I think.) Making Sense has wonderful (!) comments on redirecting the victuals. I will pass some suggestions along to others I know doing such work. beany, don't feel bad about your waste-averse nature. It's admirable and I agree with it. cheers, Cay Sun Nov 25 19:39:50 -0800 2007 3153800 49525 cayjohan 4 3154383 hi Cay, No definitely you didn't come off that way. I think I replied the way I did because I can see other people seeing me as greedy, like oh I bet she made extra food so that she would be able to take the leftovers at the end of the day, so I may have reacted a bit too strongly. Really I appreciate your comments :) Sun Nov 25 21:27:12 -0800 2007 3154192 10797 beany 5 3154404 Sorry to say, your concerns aren't unreasonable. People can be pretty catty even in charitable situations and those who don't realize that you're passing surplus food on - with authorization - to other charities or legitimate recipients might think you were just taking it home or to your friends. Make sure that you do get permission, make a point of mentioning it every now and then, ask if others know of programs that can be added to the "surplus" list, and enlist their help. They'll likely work at other places someday and learning how to spread surpluses around is a useful skill to learn. Always check with potential recipients first. Not a good idea to just show up with food they might not want and can't use. Sun Nov 25 21:43:56 -0800 2007 3154383 32444 MakingSense 1 3154286 Absolutely not. I second the idea of seeing if there is some way to "recycle" the food to clients of your program, and then if not, making use somehow, whether to other local programs organizations, or, ultimately to your staff members, or to you personally. Sun Nov 25 20:31:20 -0800 2007 3153586 117292 Shayna Madel 2 3154670 Where I live, we have a non-profit outfit that does this, just call them and they'll be waiting outside the door at the end of your meal/affair/trade show/concert. They also get leftover bread from bakeries and everything that the supermarkets don't want. Then they divvy it up and everyone gets some. It's such a nice idea, and you'd be amazed at how many food pantries and soup kitchens there are out there, even in the richest towns. http://www.islandharvest.org/ Maybe there's something like that near you? Mon Nov 26 06:04:44 -0800 2007 3154286 11097 coll 1 3154989 No you're not being ridiculous. I kind of have the same issues with throwing out food. Back when I was really struggling, even ramen noodles were expensive for me. I felt that wasting food equaled wasting money. I still hate seeing food go to waste. Mon Nov 26 08:28:11 -0800 2007 3153586 11701 MrsT 1 3155147 Another alternative, though you'd probably have to do some research to find a place, is composting. You'd need to find a place with big enough (i.e. hot enough) piles to digest your contributions -- too much for backyard composters. Organic farms or even enlightened municipal greenwaste programs are possibilities. They could take the kitchen scraps you produce too -- potato peelings, etc. It's so sad to see how much vegetable material gets landfilled that could be going back to feed the land. Slowly the mainstream is coming around, and more cities at least compost yard trimmings. A few (well, Berkeley & Oakland) even collect kitchen scraps for composting! Of course, a much higher use for the food is if you can feed it to people, per all these excellent suggestions above. But I wanted to make a small pitch for composting. Mon Nov 26 09:09:41 -0800 2007 3153586 19542 Karen_Schaffer 1 3156169 recognizing the issue is the first step in solving the issue. jfood truly dislikes throwing away food. even when little jfood takes the skin off the chicken and leaves it on her plate when finished it still irks him when he tosses it in the disposal. but over the thirty years that jfood has prepared dinners, he has gained a great deal of experience in purchasing and preparing what will be eaten and will match his eat-ratio against anyone's. That being said once when jfood was in costco purchasing stuff to make sandwiches for the homeless the guy behind him looked at jfood basket of a dozen loaves of bread, 20 packages of bologne, mustard and american cheese and looked at jfood and asked, "do you own a restaurant?" when jfood told him he was making the sandwiches to bring to the shelter, the guy said "why would you do that?" How do you answer a question like that? So try to channel this energy to figure out a way to satisfy your desire to give to the people who might not have, not beating your self up. If you are anything like jfood you will have plenty of real issues to beat yourself up on, take this heart-filled opening and march forward to do some good. We're proud of you. Mon Nov 26 13:34:47 -0800 2007 3153586 11290 jfood