463393 Sat Nov 24 17:39:42 -0800 2007 21 29 Not About Food 0 3151863 A few threads on other boards got me thinking. I kept hearing that restaurant X was really good, but a touristy place. Same for restaurant Y – tourists go there. Got to restaurant Z and the comments were I don’t want to eat with a bunch of tourists. I do associate certain restaurants with catering to the tourist trade. Seldom are these really food-oriented spots, and usually rely on heavy marketing, discounts, proximity to major hotels or a long-tarnished name (amongst locals). The prices are usually above the norm for that city and the service is often an afterthought, as most of their clients will not likely be returning, at least for some time. However, I am beginning to worry about the “tourist/touristy” aspect of otherwise great restaurants. Now, in Phoenix, most higher-end restaurants are on the radar-screen of the tourists. Heck, many of the chefs have been featured in major food/wine publications, or on TV, or are James Beard Award winners. I rub elbows with tourists all of the time. When we’re traveling, we ARE tourists, though most of our choices are predicated solely on the food. If the in-room magazine has ads for my choices, I am often a bit hesitant, though have found some major exceptions. By that, I mean great restaurants, that ARE featured in some of those publications, like "Where." So, I then become a “tourist,” and someone to be avoided, or disdained, according to many “locals,” who post here. When we’re dining in New Orleans, Chicago, San Francisco, London, Paris, Las Vegas, Honolulu or any other spot, other than Phoenix, we are the tourists. With the exception of the above cited “tourist restaurants,” why do so many folk turn up their noses at any place with tourists? Is it that they want to be unique, dining in a totally undiscovered spot? Is it because they feel that only a local can ferret out good food, so if a place has tourists in it, it cannot be good? Because I hear, otherwise good restaurants, prefaced with, “I don’t go there, because of the tourists... “ I wonder what this means in the grand scheme of dining, especially in the arena of fine-dining. Now, when I am grabbing a quick bite, not on an expense account, and looking for flavors, indigenous to the locale, I will seek out small mom & pops, that are out of the way, especially as opposed to most chains. I do avoid most heavily tourist-oriented spots, especially in cities like Honolulu and Las Vegas. This is because I am going for the food, and not because of a discount in some book, or an ad in my in-room magazine. I do not care if other “tourists” are in the crowd, especially as I am one. All I care about, is the food. Still, I see so many fine restaurants falling out of favor on various boards, just because tourists go there. Questions: is it the general feeling that because tourist know about and dine at a certain restaurant, it is a bad thing? Would you snub a restaurant, just because some of the diners are tourists? Is your dining experience somehow enhanced, if the place is populated 100% by locals? What about the next night, when some "tourists" find there way to it? I’m just trying to get a handle on this, as I feel that it should be about the food (of course I also mean the service, the wine, etc., etc.). Sign me “curious,” Hunt Sat Nov 24 17:39:42 -0800 2007 11329 Bill Hunt 1 3152007 I live in a town that is touristy 70 % of the year...swells from 30,000 to 200,000. You can not go ANYWHERE that does not have tourist during that time.But I was thinking about this topic this morning at breakfast.Our favorite little dive was locals only this morning , no problem getting a table unlike in the tourist season when you have to wait IN LINE! but the food was still out of this world and I realized if it wasn't for those tourist my favorite place probably wouldn't make it.So I will share with them. http://johnbscigarblog.blogspot.com/ Sat Nov 24 19:07:44 -0800 2007 3151863 11854 LaLa 2 3152033 Interesting observation. Phoenix is not unlike that. It is a town of 5,000 (OK, maybe a few more, but not many), or so, that swells to almost 4M, come the Fall, Winter and early Spring. Yes, I have to tailor my reservations farther out in the "season," but that is the only problem, that I incur. I have been known to call "favors" from some restaurants, during "season," but I would not pass on any of these, just because "tourist," or, in our case "snowbirds" are there. For me, it's the food, not the clientel. Hunt Sat Nov 24 19:15:40 -0800 2007 3152007 11329 Bill Hunt 3 3152274 Hunt, loathe as I am to mention this - the last time I looked, Phoenix - the city, not the metro area - had somewhere over 1.5 million people. It's a real city - and yup - full o' tourists this time of year. (They're the ones wearing sandals and shorts in December and January,) That said, when I lived in Philadelphia,we had plenty of tourists. And it seemed to me then that they were likely to be seeking and finding local favorites - say, cheesesteaks - at some fairly ghastly places and prices. It seems to me that while many tourists do find their way to great local restaurants, many make assumptions based on what they believe to be true about a city's or region's food and/or eating habits. Unfamiliar with the area, and perhaps not terribly knowledgeable about where and how to look for a better restaurant, they will ask the most unlikely people - a front desk clerk, for instance - for advice about where to "find a good restaurant." And they're sent...wherever that person might be familiar. Or they'll just set out on their own without any sort of reference. In either case, it makes for a difficult dining experience - especially in areas in which those from elsewhere are likely to be quite unfamiliar with the kinds of restaurants available. It seems to me that many tourists here are unfamiliar with the variety possible in Mexican food - not to mention the variety of restaurants we have in this region that are not Mexican! In any event, to me a "tourist" restaurant might be one in which the service is careless (they'll never see that group again) and so is the food (they'll never cook for that person again) and maybe overpriced too (these customers don't know local prices!). We're really fortunate that so many of our "tourist" restaurants are really local favorites - as well as favorites with the concierges and staff at so many of our resorts, too - since that's often how tourists find local restaurants. Sat Nov 24 22:33:32 -0800 2007 3152033 11599 Alice Letseat 4 3153359 As it was the Metro Area, to which I was refering, I'll go with the higher number, roughly. Getting to Philadelphia, I love two of the restaurants, though do not think that I'd term either one a "tourist restaurant," Le Bec-Fin and Morimoto. One of the main differences, that I see with CH's is the majority check out the cuisine of a region, when traveling there - unlike the majority of "tourists," that you cite. I agree that so many seem like lost souls, and DO rely on the wrong sources in too many instances. Looking at the type of restaurant, that I was referring to, let's take Le Bec-fin and Commander's Palace (NOLA). I often hear folk comment that they would not go to Commander's, because of all the tourists, regardless of how good the food is. Do you feel the same about Le Bec-fin? Last few times there, I could not distinguish the tourists (and I was one), from the locals. It was all about the food and little more. I tried to differentiate between the definitely "tourist restaurants," and the great local restaurants, that have just been discovered by "tourists," but probably did not do an adequate job. I usually travel with a short-list from CH, or similar, and will often use these to "grade" a concierge. If I describe some local CH favorites, but do not mention the names, and none appears on the concierge's list, I most often dismiss their advice. OTOH, if they hit several CH recs., I feel that they can be trusted to help fill in some free nights, or should we change our mind, re: cuisine. I'll list the cuisine, add that we're looking for a good wine list, and never ask for a "locals only" spot. However, it seems that many go that route, to stay away from tourists. Personally, so long as they are well-behaved diners, I do not find any problem with dining where there are tourists. Matter of fact, I hardly notice them, AND they help the restaurants stay in business for my next trip. Thanks for the comments, Hunt Sun Nov 25 13:15:03 -0800 2007 3152274 11329 Bill Hunt 4 3174279 "...they will ask the most unlikely people, like a front desk clerk..." (?) I am not sure what sort of hotels you normally choose, but in San Francisco, the front desk agents are extremely capable of making great suggestions...particularly at the boutique-style hotels. They often know places that even locals and so-called "foodies" have never heard of. It's the professional "concierges" that are the unimaginative ones, in my experience...not everyone wants to eat at Masa's every night! And at the larger hotels, the concierge desks are often staffed by flaks who are paid by the tour companies - many who have never lived in SF nor eaten at any place other than Burger King or Lori's Diner! Sun Dec 02 22:56:51 -0800 2007 3152274 134351 Morticia 1 3152225 I live in Orlando- which, at times, seems to be the tourist epicenter of the universe. Here, we appreciate good food anyway it comes to us, and we do not mind eating with tourists. But, I have noticed that the main difference is that the quality of service in the touristy areas is often horrid - eating "there" means that you have chosen to place yourself in an area where the money that a server makes is often predicated on how many tables they can turn in one night rather than the quality of service - because the servers know they will likely never see repeat customers. It is so stark, that locals can immediately tell when a "local" restaurant brings in their staff from the tourist areas for training because the quality of service plummets so quickly. Secondly, I find that upscale restaurants who want to attract the tourist crowd (and this might just be limited to where I live) fall prey to the inane tactics of the family-oriented restaurants to do so. Once I was at Emeril's at Universal Studios - which was once a very upscale restaurant - for a nice dinner with my husband and, despite the "quiet, out of the way room" we were in, we were treated to at least six renditions of the birthday song performed by their staff. Expensive bottle of wine + birthday song*(6) = yuck. Third, most restaurants that serve the tourist population are aiming for the lowest-common denominator, and I find the food in those places to be somewhat overpriced and uninteresting. This may sound harsh, but finding a really good restaurant in which to have a nice, high-quality, well-serviced dinner here is difficult. And, while I do not necessarily blame the tourists for creating a general atmosphere of bad service and mediocre food in the "touristy" area, I do not care to have those characteristics influencing the restaurants in which I like to dine. I would happily share these spaces with tourists if the quality would stay the same, but, in general, it does not. Now, having said that, chowhound has actually been a great way to steer many tourists towards higher quality restaurants in Orlando - but then, if they are here and asking, I'm assuming they not going to be requesting the birthday song where I like to dine. If that is indeed the case, then they can have the table right next to mine. Sat Nov 24 21:25:21 -0800 2007 3151863 88792 jazzy77 2 3153372 Very good comments, re: the service and the "lowest common denominator" aspect of the over-all experience. And, yes, I think of Orlando as the tourist epicenter too. Unfortunately, for us, the only high-end spots that we've dined at, have been places like Victoria & Albert's on the Disney property. Even when we've left the property (usually there for meetings) and visited with relatives, we are usually dragged to what I would typify as a "tourist restaurant," similar to what you and Alice Letseat describe. I know that there have to be dozens of great local restaurants, but we've never had the opportunity to go and find them. Hunt Sun Nov 25 13:21:07 -0800 2007 3152225 11329 Bill Hunt 3 3169900 I live two counties away from Orlando and sometimes we actually go there to eat at some unique places that we don't have access to where we live. Tourists in Central Florida are a fact of life so I've never really differentiated between "touristy" restaurants and otherwise. One of my biggest pet peeves is the lack of good service in this area but I don't blame the tourists. I blame management. Fri Nov 30 21:09:54 -0800 2007 3153372 27357 PDeveaux 2 3163452 At the places I consider to be tourist traps, the problems seem to be that they're realized they can skate by with mediocre food if they're got a good location. They've figured out that they can get away with a lower grade of fish because the folks from Atlanta or Birmingham want to look at the ocean while they eat. And I'll admit to being misanthropic enough to find a certain percentage of tourists to be unpleasant. So many times, the ones we get in my neck of the FL swamp seem to feel that a) because they're on vacation, they're entitled to some sort of super-duper special treatment on their week of bliss, and that often comes at the expense of the pleasure of other diners and b) there's a certain subset of them that feels that if they're on vacation, they're got free reign to not discipline their children and let them run wild all over the place (I can't believe they let little Snotleigh Do That at a restuarant back home. They might run into a neighbor there, and word would spread of little Snotleigh's deeds among the other PTA moms.) Wed Nov 28 17:19:22 -0800 2007 3152225 11781 beachmouse 3 3163492 Yes. I see that sort of behavior with many, who call Phoenix "home" for six months of the year. They are not officially "tourist," though act as though they are conventioneers on a jag, as their priest, parson, rabbi, etc., will likely not hear of their deeds, away from "home." I can see your point about why one might wish to avoid this sort of place. We encounter many, in the places that we travel to, and I most often shy away from them, as well, since it's about the food for us. Thanks for helping me get a handle on some of the feelings, re: tourist restaurants. Hunt Wed Nov 28 17:31:49 -0800 2007 3163452 11329 Bill Hunt 3 3171562 I WOULD believe that they'd let little Snotleigh (great name!) run amok in restaurants at home. I live near Indianapolis, the antithesis of a tourist city, and yes, the kids can be quite badly behaved. I attribute this more to some sense of entitlement rather than "tourist privelege". Sat Dec 01 18:15:50 -0800 2007 3163452 131171 nofunlatte 1 3152242 When “tourist” is used in a pejorative manner to describe a particular restaurant as a “tourist restaurant,” we would assume that this has the following meanings: a. The assumption is that of the general population, only a small percentage of the people “live to eat” rather than the typical “eat to live,” hence when a restaurant is described as a “tourist restaurant” this infers that the large majority of the customers patronizing the restaurant are of the “eat to live” variety who do not have discerning palates and are also indeed tourists who will not be a regular repeat customer and be unable to give negative “word of mouth” for bad food and/or service. b. There is also the assumption that the restaurant management will be typical businessman who follow in the footsteps of Senator Plunkett of Tammany Hall fame who stated, “I seen my opportunities and I took ‘em.” This means that the restaurant will have no remorse in fleecing the undiscerning tourists with less than great food and bad service at very high prices. For a restaurant to truly deserve the moniker of “tourist restaurant,” both of the above conditions must be true. The restaurant has to have a large percentage of tourist diners, where the majority of the diners are unable to recognize over priced food and/or will not be repeat customers and the restaurants are unscrupulous in taking advantage of the customers. An example of a restaurant that would not deserve the title of “tourist restaurant” would be the “Per Se” restaurant in New York City, where even if the large majority of the diners were tourists, the restaurant would still serve great food to each and every diner, regardless of whether they are regulars or tourists. The assumption is that the “Per Se” owners would have too much pride and integrity to take advantage of the tourists, plus at the very high prices charged by the “Per Se” restaurant, it may be unlikely that the “Per Se” restaurant would ever receive a wide cross section of American diners (assuming that one could even obtain a reservation), since the very high prices may ensure that either only the rich and/or serious and knowledgeable diners would choose to dine there. This example would be typical of great restaurants in this world that would never be labeled with the tag “tourist restaurant.” While we have not dined at “Tavern On the Green” in New York City, we have read a number reviews that purports to put the label “tourist restaurant” upon the “Tavern On the Green” restaurant. The “Tavern On the Green” has a beautiful location set into Central Park with very nice décor, but according to many of the reviews, the food is over priced and one does not receive commensurate food and service value for the price paid. Plus according to the reviews, the restaurant is also full of tourists. We would guess that the serious diner might become jittery whenever one encounters too many tourists who are a normal cross section of the populace and who typically do not “live to eat,” since there is the fear that the restaurant management will not be able to resist taking the easy way out and lowering their food standards when it is too easy to make money by taking advantage of the tourist trade and serving indifferent food. This may or may not happen and would depend upon the integrity of the restaurant owners. If one wants to try a particular restaurant known to have a large percentage of tourists, one must either risk eating a meal there first or one may read restaurant reviews in your local paper or participate in websites like Chowhound.com to assess whether the restaurant is worth eating at. Sat Nov 24 21:43:33 -0800 2007 3151863 11282 lwong 2 3153398 Very well stated. You did a far better job, than I was able to. I like the analogy between Tavern on the Green and Per Se - showing the possible differences in the overall experience. I've not dined at Per Se, but have at Thomas Keller's first major restaurant, The French Laundry. Though most of the diners, on our excursions, have definitely been "tourists," I'd never, in a million years, use the term "tourist restaurant." I'd guess the same for Per Se. Pretty much the same can be said for the great restaurants in Las Vegas - most of the diners are tourists, but the high-end spots would not qualify, in my book, as "tourist restaurants," even though some are priced near the stratosphere. So long as the food and service equal good value for the $ (regardless of how many $'s one adds), I do not care who the fellow diners are. I will say that Las Vegas has a disproportionate share of “tourist restaurants,” and some big-name chefs have contributed to that number, lending their name to spots that are horribly over-priced, with poor service and creating an unpleasant dining experience. Maybe it is the persuit of the bottom line, that leads them to do this. Hunt Sun Nov 25 13:33:19 -0800 2007 3152242 11329 Bill Hunt 2 3155469 I'm finding that in NYC, any restaurants that are reviewed in the NY Times/New York Magazine/Time Out, have a chef/owner with their own FN or PBS show (or featured on the FN), is located in/around Time Square, the Theater/Meatpacking/Financial District, featured in Sex and the City, rated in Zagat's, is mentioned as a "celeb" spot, is hard to get a reservation, and in general is near any "must see" site is a tourist spot. With the weakening dollar and the influx of European bargain hunters, it seems EVERY restaurant from Per Se to Applebee's to McDonald's are tourist restaurants. Mon Nov 26 10:37:09 -0800 2007 3152242 11701 MrsT 3 3160478 Although many of the Manhattan restaurants may be full of tourists, don’t you feel that among these many Manhattan restaurants there are also a certain percentage of them who comport themselves with honor and integrity? If there were not sufficient people in this world, including restaurateurs, who have honor and integrity and “do the right thing,” wouldn’t you agree that this world would not be a very fit place to bring up children, and the world would have descended into chaos and despair a very long time ago? We consider ourselves very cynical, but we feel that there is still hope for this world and that there are many restaurants operated by good people who “do the right thing.” You must be one of the few persons in this world who are more cynical than us. (LOL) Tue Nov 27 20:39:04 -0800 2007 3155469 11282 lwong 4 3162777 I am cynical but I don't have problems with "tourist-y" restaurants. It just seems like any place can be a tourist spot. I actually like going to some of them, with the exception of the Bubba Gump and Olive Garden. The tourists are now crossing the bridges and going into Brooklyn. I just had a nice conversation the other day with a couple visiting from Germany at DiFara's. Would they have come all the way from Manhattan 10-15 years ago if it wasn't constantly written about in magazines, featured on TV, or on message boards? I don't necessarily doubt the honor and integrity of a person, but hey if you own a restaurant it's a business. You make your money off your clientele...tourists or locals, it doesn't make any difference to me....unless service and quality start to suffer. Wed Nov 28 14:00:35 -0800 2007 3160478 11701 MrsT 5 3163393 Very good points! Maybe I should relax my aversion to some of the restaurants, that buy ads in some of the tourist-oriented, in-room mags. As I had stated, I have found some CH favs., and later favs., of mine, in those same pages, though was somewhat surprised. Thanks for your observations, Hunt Wed Nov 28 16:58:57 -0800 2007 3162777 11329 Bill Hunt 2 3155472 Excellent reponse. I would like to add a nuance. We live in Miami and tourist places fit the description you gave. They really do not care.As an example, we were charged $1.50 per drink for "rocks!!" On the other hand, we spend summers in New England in an area that almost exclusively has tourists in the high end restaurants. In this case, the restaurants go all out to deliver the best in food and service they can or they will not survive. They very much care. Mon Nov 26 10:38:45 -0800 2007 3152242 68319 Sinicle 2 3172379 Iwong, I would like to add to your analysis: A tourist restaurant doesn't have to depend on repeat business as a quality local restaurant does. The concept of Chowhound allows us to travel the world and avoid most of the tourist traps. What amazes me is I live in a city that has 9,000,000 tourists a year and where do they go when they visit? P.F. Chang's. They bring it on themselves. Sun Dec 02 08:15:50 -0800 2007 3152242 11158 Leper 1 3153418 This is a problem I have not encountered here in DC, despite the yearly influx of tourists that keep me away from the Mall from May to September. I theorize that two things contribute to this: the lack of a strong regional food specialty like a cheesesteak that can be used to suck tourists into cheap low-quality places, and the lack of food options in the defined "tourist area". The Mall is full of museums and federal buildings with nary a restaurant to be found except museum cafeterias, so tourists tend eat at those or to scatter out in the more food-friendly areas of the city where the rest of us live and eat. This scattering keeps them from being as noticable, and keeps them from being such a strong demographic that resto owners are tempted to adjust their food/service to cater to them. Instead of "tourists" going to "tourist" places, they are families going to family places or foodies going to foodie places, etc, etc. This said, when I lived in Italy it took some serious legwork and advance planning to find places to eat in Rome or Venice or Florence that did not cater almost exclusively to the tourist of the lowest common denominator, serving up bland red-sauce pasta the patron would never eat or serve to his friends or family. Sun Nov 25 13:46:20 -0800 2007 3151863 102571 mordacity 1 3158604 Reminds me of the old saw "Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded" Tue Nov 27 10:35:55 -0800 2007 3151863 10784 Scrapironchef