462991 Thu Nov 22 19:37:13 -0800 2007 50 34 Wine 0 3148462 i had two bottles of the same wine. robert hall 2004 cab. i had bought one bottle last april and the other one last week. back in april i had a taste of it and thought it was decent so i bought a bottle but never opened it. i went to a dinner tonight and we opened both and someone noted that they tasted different. so we all did a comparision and the older one (i know it was the older b/c the label had gotten scuffed) from april tasted tremendously better. i'm a complete wine novice so i'm not sure how to describe how it tasted "better" but the older one had more of an earthy fuller taste. the newer bottle was very light. i know every bottle will taste different but sheesh! we were all stumped wine novices. does anyone have a good explanation? thaanks! Thu Nov 22 19:37:13 -0800 2007 17438 trolley 1 3148478 Well, 1) you have 7 more months of bottle age on a very young wine 2) alot can happen with storage conditions. 3) wine is not completely homogenous... if you had two separate bottles from two separate vats, and those particular vats weren't blended prior to bottling, then you'll have two similar but not identical wines. 4) The corking could have been bad on one of the bottles And, my favorite... 5) Our "fond memories" of this wine or that wine often don't re-occur when we try the wine again... it's good, but not revelatory as it was the first time :) Thu Nov 22 19:53:53 -0800 2007 3148462 42549 Chicago Mike 1 3148567 Sounds like the more recent purchase may have been slightly corked. I do not have a high degree of sensitivity to cork taint, or TCA (an abbreviation for a chemical which makes its way into wine both through tainted cork and any number of other possible sources along the production process if I'm not mistaken) but others do. TCA produces a distinct musty "wet cardboard" type aroma. In smaller doses it can (so I have heard, as I said I'm not usually attuned enough to detect it) cause simply muted, dampened flavors and aromas. CM - you've misread the OP. He is not comparing a tasting of one bottle 7 months ago to another more recently. He bought one bottle 7 months ago, another last week, and tasted both at the same time. They've had the same amount of bottle age. Thu Nov 22 21:24:27 -0800 2007 3148462 35525 Frodnesor 2 3154434 Yup. I'm betting the "lighter" bottle was very slightly corked. So slightly that the characteristic musty, wet cardboard smell wasn't present. I'm supersensitive to TCA/TBA and if I think a wine is borderline corked, I ask myself "Is the fruit muted?" and "Is the acid low?" Yes to both confirms corked status. Sun Nov 25 22:14:26 -0800 2007 3148567 18222 maria lorraine 3 3155468 Normally, I find that the acid levels have increased with the presence of TCA. Yes, to the muted fruit, and sometimes to the musty, damp cardboard. I have also noticed that many of the corks have a grey tinge, where contact was made with the wine, and that, even with the wine stored with liquid contact to the cork, it seems dry in that grey area. This has been a series of observations with reds, as well as whites. So you find the acid levels down? My experience has been just the opposite with regards to cork taint. Interesting. Curious, Hunt Mon Nov 26 10:36:58 -0800 2007 3154434 11329 Bill Hunt 4 3159547 Hi, Bill, Yes, low acid has always been one of the hallmarks of cork taint in my experience. I'll see if I can dig up some notes/reference material for you in the next week. I have experienced two (even three of four!) wine flaws occurring in the same bottle, meaning, I have smelled TCA with VA at the same time, so taint plus high acid. I'll try to find out more and report back. Best, Maria Tue Nov 27 14:53:37 -0800 2007 3155468 18222 maria lorraine 5 3159657 >> Yes, low acid has always been one of the hallmarks of cork taint I see hope here for producers of bad wine. Since in my experince many bad/cheap wines usually carry way too much acid I propose to 'fix' the problem by tainting their corks ;) Tue Nov 27 15:30:44 -0800 2007 3159547 118541 olasek 5 3159742 Thanks for the response. Unfortunately, it goes contrary to what I have observed. Other than the smell, the first thing that I look for is elevated acid levels, then little, or no, fruit. Interesting. I'd like to see the notes. I know that different folk taste/smell different things in wine - happens all of the time. However, acid levels are usually constant, amongst tasters. When I've done A-B comparisons, I (and all others, that I've been around) find more acid in the tainted bottles. Curious, Hunt Tue Nov 27 16:03:55 -0800 2007 3159547 11329 Bill Hunt 6 3159791 Hi again, Bill, Well, I've done some digging. I called the leading TCA chemist at the ETS wine lab, and also the former winemaker who is in charge of organoleptic characteristics vis a vis cork taint at the cork manufacturer Amorim. Here's what they say: TCA, TBA and the family of haloanisoles that cause cork taint have no chemical or molecular effect on levels of acidity in wine. So what I've experienced -- low levels of acidity with TCA -- is just a coincidence, and the two are not related at all. Still, it strikes me as curious (I'm curious, also!) why I have noticed this (along with many other good wine tasters). Likewise, for you, it seems that TCA is usually accompanied by higher acid levels. It turns out there is no correlation whatsoever. What is a true correlation with TCA is muted or flattened fruit. So there's the research. If you'd like the specific contact info (phone numbers, emails) of the scientists with whom I spoke, please email me at the address on my profile. Call me surprised. Maria Tue Nov 27 16:21:30 -0800 2007 3159742 18222 maria lorraine 7 3159919 Wow, you HAVE been digging. I, obviously, cannot argue with chemists, at a molecular level, but dang, I find my observations so very common - as you, probably, do yours. Interesting. By that same token, the wine industry cites anywhere between 2% and 10% of the wine, that is corked. They are that their business, and can’t seem to come to a consensus. I’ll make you a deal - next TCA-tainted bottle, that I get (provided that I also have a good one), I’ll spend more time with it and give you my impressions. I had two over the last three weeks, a Gainy SB and a Sullivan Chard. Maybe I was too quick to pour back into the bottle, and grab another good one, of each. As I find acid levels to be “different,” and so do you, just in different directions on the acid scale, I wonder what else might be attributing to these observations. I know your posts, and respect your comments, but wonder why we find different aspects of this one element, and the scientists say that it has no direct correlation. Curiouser and curiouser it gets. Thanks for your efforts, Hunt Tue Nov 27 16:59:26 -0800 2007 3159791 11329 Bill Hunt 8 3160035 Dear Dining Companion over the weekend opened a bottle of the Nickel & Nickel Sullinger Cabernet. Corked, at first sniff for me. It took my dining companion a few more sniffs to come around to TCA recognition. The longer the corked wine sat in the glass though, the more apparent the cork taint became. We opened a second bottle. Absolutely flat. Not only no fruit, but dullsville in every way including no acid zinginess. Dear Dining Companion says to this dear dining companion: "It doesn't taste like it usually does," thinking this new bottle is not corked. But, of course, it was -- borderline corked. We put stoppers back in both and, luckily, DDC has a relationship with the N&N folks, so hopefully two new bottles will arrive as replacements. A deal, it is. Will likewise spend a few more minutes with the next corked bottle in an attempt to get a read on the acid level. Tue Nov 27 17:40:01 -0800 2007 3159919 18222 maria lorraine 9 3160079 Oh sh*t, I have a half-case of N&N Sullinger in the cellar! Well, I guess that I know what we'll be opening with the filets this PM. Two at a time, eh? Man, that is a real bummer. I've encountered several at an event with maybe a half-dozen cases, but never from my cellar, or at any restaurant. Talk about bad luck. Besides, the N&N should be drinking OK, by now, so it's time to see. Maybe this will be another phase of the test - though, I hope NOT. Take care, Hunt Tue Nov 27 17:56:18 -0800 2007 3160035 11329 Bill Hunt 10 3160199 Just let the N&N folks know if you get a corked bottle. They have such high quality control standards that they always want to know if a bottle isn't up to snuff, and will gladly replace. Tue Nov 27 18:35:25 -0800 2007 3160079 18222 maria lorraine 11 3160257 Well, one down & five more to go. This was the '99, that I laid down a half-case of. My wife would not let me drink more than the first bottle with the filets, but I'll keep going, until they are all done. I choose this particular bottle, since the capsule was distended about 1/16". I was a little worried, based on your report, that I might have two flaws, in one bottle. However, the cork was slightly below the lip of the bottle, maybe 1/32". Do not know why the capsule was poofed a bit. No heat damage, and a great wine. Besides, it's about time to drink it all up, though at several seatings. I'm hoisting the first glass to Gil, may he RIP! Hunt PS Poor Trolley - he/she posted a simple question, and look where it's gone! Tue Nov 27 18:59:59 -0800 2007 3160199 11329 Bill Hunt 12 3160335 Report on btl. one, of six: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/464311 Hunt Tue Nov 27 19:39:25 -0800 2007 3160257 11329 Bill Hunt 7 3162364 Though the molecular structure of the wine doesn't actually change (those pesky scientists are always soooo precise) is it possible that the muting of the fruit make us perceive more acid as the fruit is not there to balance it, even though there isn't actually any more acid than before..... Wed Nov 28 12:24:08 -0800 2007 3159791 96313 ellaystingray 8 3163427 A good possibility, as my experiences have been less than emperic. I still wonder why Marie Lorraine and I have had such different experiences. Since we're not talking about nuances, but "taste," here, I'm puzzeled. Still, that is one of the things that makes wine so very interesting - it's different things to different folk; even if it's a fault! Hunt Wed Nov 28 17:10:10 -0800 2007 3162364 11329 Bill Hunt 9 3163586 Yeah, maybe Lorraine, but still Maria, with an "a". Wed Nov 28 18:12:13 -0800 2007 3163427 28703 RicRios 10 3163686 Duh! Should not type, while tasting wine, otherwise big mistakes can, and will happen. Sorry about that - mea culpa, mea culpa. Hunt Wed Nov 28 18:56:31 -0800 2007 3163586 11329 Bill Hunt 11 3163796 Aw heck, I'm not that sensitive, Will. Wed Nov 28 19:42:28 -0800 2007 3163686 18222 maria lorraine 12 3163842 Touché. Hunt Wed Nov 28 20:02:03 -0800 2007 3163796 11329 Bill Hunt 1 3148584 Storage conditions seems to me the most probable cause. Did you buy both from the same merchant? Thu Nov 22 21:59:16 -0800 2007 3148462 28703 RicRios 2 3149084 chicago mike-, as frodnesor pointed out we drank both bottles at the same time. so point #5 is not applicable but sure sounds probable in most other cases :) ricrios- no we didn't buy them from the same merchant. older one was bought at trader joe's and the newer one at whole foods. the newer bottle had almost no taste. the strong cab taste that the old bottle had was barely there in the new bottle. Fri Nov 23 09:00:42 -0800 2007 3148584 17438 trolley 3 3149501 Good! The multi-merchant source lends support to the storage conditions theory. Neither TJ nor WF have temperature controlled storage for wines. However, the second bottle could have been kept in much worst conditions than the first one, like under the sun, close to some heat source & such. It would be nice to get a second bottle of the same wine from the same WF store to further support the theory. If condition is same as with the first one, you should be able to take it back to the retailer, together with copy of this thread, for a full refund. Fri Nov 23 12:18:37 -0800 2007 3149084 28703 RicRios 4 3149556 What storage conditions would cause a wine to taste "lighter"? I've certainly had wines get "cooked" as a result of bad temp control, but this has almost always revealed itself in stewed, pruney "cooked" flavors rather than no flavor at all. Fri Nov 23 12:45:47 -0800 2007 3149501 35525 Frodnesor 5 3149589 I've had watery bottles many times. Hard to pin down the cause with certainty ( hey, even some H2O "supplementing" the vintage at the time of bottling is not unheard of...), but bad storage was often involved at some point along the line. At this point I'd just insist on double checking with another bottle to either detect consistency or give up as just a fluke. Fri Nov 23 13:05:02 -0800 2007 3149556 28703 RicRios 1 3149759 As many have pointed out, there is no shortage of possibilities on why this happened. An interesting way to have fairly dependable uniformity in wines is to buy them by the case directly from a vintner, if you live in a state where this is possible. I know you didn't ask, but you say you're a wine novice, sooooo... For storing wines at home, aim for a cool dry place at floor level, and preferably on floors that don't have much bounce. I know it's popular in magazines to have a wine rack for storing fifteen or more bottles in the kitchen, often over the refrigerator, but this is the worst possible place to store wine! Heat rises, refrigerators produce a lot of heat, and it's a sure way to ruin good wine. Always store the bottles on their side. When you order from a vintner, chances are the wines will arrived in a carton that can simply be turned on its side for storage. It's also pretty easy to make a wine rack. If you live on slab floors, a really good home wine rack can be made by stacking sections of terra cotta or concrete pipe on their side, then storing a bottle of wine in each. They will go far to even out and maintain temperature for long term storage. PVC will work, but not nearly as well. Taste and smell are the most accurate and lasting of human memories, so go with what you like and ignore all of the "wine babble" that talks about the overtones and subtle hints and long finishes "like mountain grown Castillian blueberries." One man's blueberry is another man's carrot. Go with what tastes really pleasing to you. And unless two bottles of wine from the same bottling have been treated identically up until the time you drink them, there is faint chance they will taste alike. Fri Nov 23 14:40:42 -0800 2007 3148462 112096 Caroline1 2 3150069 it must be beginners luck b/c i store my wine in a dark closet on the floor. if and when i get more space, i'll try your pipe rack. thanks! Fri Nov 23 17:28:52 -0800 2007 3149759 17438 trolley 3 3150671 My pleasure. And remember, all a vintner is asking is that you enjoy the fruit of his labor. Sat Nov 24 06:19:59 -0800 2007 3150069 112096 Caroline1 3 3151047 Carolyn's idea of terra cotta is an excellent one. Make sure you bring a Champagne bottle with you when it comes to selecting the pipe -- you want to make sure it will fit! Sat Nov 24 10:08:56 -0800 2007 3150069 28122 zin1953 2 3153133 You mention storing in a cool, dry place. What happens if the storage space is somewhat humid/damp? Can it have a bad effect on the wine? I have had some labels ruined by dampness, usually at the bottom levels of a rack in the basement, but so far the wines seem to be fine. I've reasoned (worried?) that the dampness might eventually make the cork moldy and spoil the wine but I think one time at a winery visit the winemaker told me not to worry about it. What do you think? Sun Nov 25 11:41:33 -0800 2007 3149759 10270 gnocchi 3 3153295 Labels are usually the main concern. As for mold on the cork, beneath the capsule, well, that happens. A clean damp bar towell takes care of most of it, the pulling of the cork a little more, and then a careful wipe with another part of the towell, usually cleans the lip of the bottle up perfectly. Had a moldy cork in a Riesling over Thanksgiving. It was really covered, but using the above method, and inspecting the cork, to make sure that it had not been leaking enough to affect the wine, I served it to rave reviews. It did take a bit more scrubbing, than I am used to, but no ill effects. Hunt Sun Nov 25 12:44:35 -0800 2007 3153133 11329 Bill Hunt 3 3154483 Wow! If I had that much moisture in my house, I'd be deeply worried about the house! Mold can be a major enemy. Even if you're just renting, when you move, the mold will move with you. As far as wine goes, as Bill Hunt points out, the wine is safely tucked behind glass, and mold the whole length of a cork into the wine means the cork was bad in the first place. But it can do damage to the labels. The advantages of a terra cotta pipe rack is that the pipe acts as a mini-cellar for each individual bottle of wine. It will average out the humidity by both absorbing and/or releasing moisture, it minimizes temperature changes, and is generally much kinder to wine than most storage methods. From a personal viewpoint, I don't much like those refrigerated, temperature zoned wine storage "refrigerators" unless either it or the whole house is solar powered. The longest power failure I've had to endure in the U.S. was five days. I've never seen a refrigerated wine storage unit with insulation to withstand that long a time, and with global warming... Well. The most damaging thing to wine is abrupt temperature changes. Do look into solving your dampness problem for the sake of your lungs, and the sake of your leather! Your wine is pretty safe. Sun Nov 25 23:25:52 -0800 2007 3153133 112096 Caroline1 1 3151848 Did they have the same color intensity in the glasses? As red wine ages it will become lighter in color, less purplish and more brick colored. You really shouldn't be seing this in a young cabernet properly stored, but if your 2nd bottle was stored at elevated temps in the store or warehouse the ageing could have been greatly accelerated but still not to the point of "cooking" the wine. Who knows what could happen as the wines bounce around the distribution channel from truck to truck, warehouse to warehouse, sitting on loading docks and hot trucks, etc. Or maybe just a very slight cork taint in the 2nd bottle as someone else said. Sat Nov 24 17:26:04 -0800 2007 3148462 10270 gnocchi 2 3151919 That was my initial thinking, but on reflection, would expect the one stored/shipped in a cooler environment (artifically aged less) to be angular, with sharper tannins, indistinct but forward fruit, etc., and the other (warmer shipping/storage, and artifically aged more) to me more rounded with integrated tannins and fruit. To have the described tastes, puzzels me. I am not at all familiar with the wine, in question, but even wonder if bottle variation (from my experience) could account for so drastic of a difference. I've found some bottle variation, even within the same case, and definitely from wines bought some months apart, but nothing akin to this. Curious. I'd love to hear the outcome from picking up another bottle from retailer B (at least I think that it was B). Hunt Sat Nov 24 18:12:40 -0800 2007 3151848 11329 Bill Hunt 3 3153094 Re: bottle storage, and in response to Caroline's advice, I read an interesting article in the wine spec about two months ago summarizing results of a study in wine storage. Others may have heard of the study (I think it was a French study). It found that bottles stored on their side were no better preserved than bottles stored standing upright. Apparently, the study found the internal humidity in the bottle is high enough that cork shrinkage is not significant in bottles stored upright. Another finding of the study was that bottles with screwcaps had the least deterioration over time; synthetic corks were the least successful enclosure for preventing oxygenation. Oak corks were somewhere in the middle. If I find the study, I'll link it... Sun Nov 25 11:20:54 -0800 2007 3151919 99971 anewton 4 3153309 Interesting. I see that I have about 6 editions of WS, still in their little rubber bags. Been too busy to even open them up. The article is probably in that stack. Possibly an "old wive's tale," about the storage of the btl. on its side. It seems reasonable, considering the distribution of the liquid, but then, if the study was run well, and they found the relative humidity in the bottle (upright) did an adequate job, I won't fret about the bottles that are upright, at this moment, as I can't reach two of the walls in the cellar, unitl it's cool enough to drag 20 cases out into the Arizona air, to get in and re-fill the slots in the cellar. This seems like a project for the Christmas Holiday, as I should have time, and the low temps. You saved me some worry. Hunt Sun Nov 25 12:49:27 -0800 2007 3153094 11329 Bill Hunt 4 3164340 I can see it now. A sommelier presents a venerable bottle of Chateau Lafite-Rothschild, the host nods, the sommelier opens the bottle and presents the host with the screw top cap! LOL! One of the problems I see with the study is that it stops short. The cork may not shrivel and die when the wine is not in contact with it, but what happens to the wine? There's a lot of chemistry going in a bottle of unopened wine. What sort of interaction takes place with the cork, if any? I was also taught that when you have laid in a supply of long aging wines, you turn the bottles a half turn every so often. It seems logical to me that if these things were not important practices, through the ages the vintners would have figured out they could just stand their bottles in the corner and no need for cradles to keep their corks wet... Thu Nov 29 05:15:09 -0800 2007 3153094 112096 Caroline1 5 3164463 The only reason for turning the bottles from time to time is to avoid unsightly sediment stains on the inside of the glass. It's purely aesthetic. Thu Nov 29 06:20:57 -0800 2007 3164340 10520 carswell 1 3154169 There are absolutely excruciating stories about what can happen to a bottle of wine before it gets to you--and this is treatment by wine "professionals."--distributors, retailers, trade etc. Determining the exact provenance of any particular bottle is a challange, even if you buy it from the winery, though this is by far the least likely chance of the bottle having been handled poorly. However, there are a few things that could have happened at the winery. TCA as noted and explained very well be Frodnesor, in small amounts could easily be the culprit. Also, there is a flaw called "reduction" where a wine has actually not had proper exposure to oxygen during production and storage and therrefore doesn't display the more complex characteristics usually associated with the wine. There is significant discussion amongst the wine intelligencia about the various ways this happens and why, but a "sulfery" or "rotten egg" characteristic is often detected in "reduced" wines. This can blow off and just leave a sorta "wine junior" version. It is true that water is often added during the winemaking process and there could have been some variation as a result of error or just general variation between vats though it doesn't likely the variation would be that extreme. It doesn't sound like the wine was "cooked," or exposed to a period of very very high temperatures but was possibly stored at slightly elevated temperatures for extended periods of time and that can also flatten out a wine. Though heat exposure tends to create sharp notes of alcohol, some color variation at the meniscus (the very edges of the wine in the glass) and sherry/madeira characteristics--doesn't sound like that is what you are describing. There is an outside chance it was fatigued do to exposure to vibration. This is also a bit of a challenge to prove or explain, but it is generally accpeted that wine exposed to even small vibrations over extended periods will deteriorate more quickly. You'll hear people say this is why you don't want to store wine on top of your refridgerator (though I think the temperature issues is probably more pressing up there)--nontheless, shaking your wine a lot is almost surely not good. In regard to the bottle standing up vs. bottle on its side storage question. I've had a chance to open a large number of bottles that are 15-30 years old as a result of a relationship I have with a restaurant that buys its wines and and stores them themselves for this long (in temperature and humidity controlled warehousing). Corks will absolutely dry out and disintegrate. At 30 years old, depending on the quality of cork used, I've had trouble with 50% of the corks in a case. HOWEVER, the failure rate seems to be completely disconnected from whether these bottles were stored on their sides or not. Meaning, they had all sorts of wine stored both ways and either the corks tended to hold up or they didn't. Now, we are also not talking about First Growth Bordeaux and Cult cabs who are spending $3 a piece on inch and 3/4 corks. These wines were predominantly good quality California wines that would have used good but probably not the best corks i.e. the difference between the cork in a bottle of Robert Mondavi Napa Cab and the Robert Mondavi Reserve. SO, I think temperature, humidity and even aesthetics are more important for your storage than the orientation of the bottle. I'll leave with this, this is why I love wine--it is almost always something a little different. Sun Nov 25 19:22:26 -0800 2007 3148462 96313 ellaystingray 2 3154228 Thanks for the well-written and informative addition to this thread. I've been pondering the two descriptions of the wines, and still cannot come to grips with what would cause the two, so different, wines, other than something at the winery. Maybe there was a contract for X cases, and they got to the last barrel and realized that they would not make their quota - does not seem likely, but I suppose that it could happen. Also, I suppose that it is possible that in the bottling line, some of the cleaning liquid could have not been dumped 100%, but still, most bottles invert, prior to filling - fairly unlikely, also. The second (listed) bottle seems to be suffering from dilution, or some sort. I hope that the OP does take the suggestion to pick up a second (actually a third) bottle from the source of the latter, just to try. I know that I certainly would. The descriptions seem to defy standard practices, and normal problems encountered. Waiting for the test report, Hunt Sun Nov 25 20:00:08 -0800 2007 3154169 11329 Bill Hunt 3 3155277 bill hunt- i will go back and buy another bottle this week and report back. you guys are so informed and technical that you make me feel like i'm back in school :) Mon Nov 26 09:47:35 -0800 2007 3154228 17438 trolley 4 3155495 Yes, please report back. Try and find all common ground as well as differences. Look to the fruit, acid and body of each. Your description of "earthy" leads towards THAT bottle being slightly corked, but the "fuller" doesn't. The "lighter" of the other bottle, could point to cork taint, but what else did you notice. Could be a little Bret in it, to yield "earthy" flavors and aromas. In light degrees, many do not call this a fault, though there is personal disagreement there. For me, besides the afore-mentioned mustiness (some might call it "earthy," though I would not), I find that corked wines are thinner ("lighter"), with little or no fruit, and though Maria Lorraine and I differ, higher acid levels. Without the mustiness, many describe the wine as being "scalped." Hunt Mon Nov 26 10:43:44 -0800 2007 3155277 11329 Bill Hunt 5 3156681 Bill: bringing up "Brett" made me think--I might be going about this backwards. The newer (better tasting) bottle could actually be the "flawed" bottle. Brett could easily do this. A 2004 cab with a little Brett might taste pretty darn good. Trolly: in case this sounds like a bunch of gobbledygook...Brettanomyces (Brett) is not the winemaker at Robert Hall--it is a naturally occurring yeast present in wineries and on grapes. It can be introduced in various quantities at various times during the winemaking process. Different wineries in different regions have higher or lower occurrences of these characteristics in finished wine depending on numerous factors. It creates a distinctive enough set of aromas, and happens often enough, that most experienced tasters and wine industry types are able to identify it. Mr. Hunt is very correct in saying that there is considerable debate as to whether low levels of Brett represent a flaw, as numerous tasters have found themselves to rather like the characteristics in small quantities. Though, to a winemaker, it is technically always a fault... (but this is getting pedantic and you already said you felt like you are in school). SO, don't assume that you and your party were "wrong" in preferring a wine that might have had a little Brett. And one last thing, and I know this sounds like the "eeew this milk is gross, here smell it," but it can be totally valuable and possibly fun if you are into this sorta thing. If you are ever at a good wine bar, tell them that you are trying to learn what TCA (corked wine) and Brett smell like and see if they have any bottles that have the characteristics. Chances are they will. Any big wine tasting will do as well. Mon Nov 26 15:51:12 -0800 2007 3155495 96313 ellaystingray 6 3156964 Your suggestion for a "smell/taste" test for TCA and Brett is a good one. When we're doing a wine event, and encounter a "bad" bottle, I always pour a bit and pass it around, to help folk identify the flaws, faults, or at least the condition of the wine. Even being very sensitive to TCA, I still play with the wine for a moment, just to see what other aspectts have changed. I usually have a replacement bottle handy (though not always), and do an A-B comparison, before pouring the remaining TCA tainted wine back into the bottle for a return to my retailer, or distributor. I've got two wine club bottles (different wineries), that I need to send back right now. Thanks for the additions, Hunt Mon Nov 26 17:35:28 -0800 2007 3156681 11329 Bill Hunt 3 3164419 "There are absolutely excruciating stories about what can happen to a bottle of wine before it gets to you--and this is treatment by wine "professionals."--distributors, retailers, trade etc. Determining the exact provenance of any particular bottle is a challange, even if you buy it from the winery, though this is by far the least likely chance of the bottle having been handled poorly." Bill Hunt ~ ~ ~ ~ When there is a profit to be made... Years ago, I lived in Las Vegas, and had a wonderful "little" wine shop (they supplied many of major hotels and restaurants) that would sell me a mixed case of red French wine at quite a reasonable price. But NONE of the burgundies were burgundy! I took back bottle after bottle. They would cheerfully provide me with another bottle that I would end up bringing back as well. I was the only one in the entire city doing this. "Don't you guys have any returns from sommeliers?" "No. None. You're the only one. Maybe you've lost your taste for red burgundy?" I scowled! And then the scandal in France hit the press... Cruse brothers were bottling junk wine and labeling it burgundy! It was a global scandal. And my wine shop held me in great regard. Every once in a while, they'd slip me a bottle and ask my opinion... But...! It really gave me pause for thought! Not ONE sommelier in all of Las Vegas had returned even one bottle? What was wrong with their taste buds! Or, in their defense, how many wine rookies were dining at their establishments? To plod on in a stream-of-consciousness sort or way, taste is not something we really have a universally shared verbal language about, though oenophiles have tried for years. As children, we're all taught this is orange, this is blue, this is hot, this is cold, but it's the rare child who is instructed on what is sweet, what is sour, what is flinty, and least of all what "The bouquet is graced by cola, black licorice, marzipan, pipe tobacco and other alluring smells in addition to pure, dark fruit notes" can possibly mean! (That's an on-line description of 1999 Musella Amarone and the pure pretentiousness of it made me laugh out loud.) So, in my experience, unless you have a group of friends and acquaintances with whom you share wine tastings and develop a common language among yourselves, it's pretty much a hit or miss game trying to talk to someone you've never shared a bottle with. Seems to me... '-) Thu Nov 29 06:03:21 -0800 2007 3154228 112096 Caroline1 4 3165630 "Don't you guys have any returns from sommeliers?" "No. None. Risking the ire of the board's gatekeepers, I must say the Vegas wine distribution circuit has a very ... how can I put it elegantly ... shady tradition. Thu Nov 29 11:52:57 -0800 2007 3164419 28703 RicRios 5 3165860 '-) Thu Nov 29 12:56:22 -0800 2007 3165630 112096 Caroline1 4 3166540 Some years back, on alt.food.wine, one of the subscribers did a wonderful tongue-in-cheek piece on wine aromas/tastes. With descriptors like "the inside of a well used violin case... ," "the ivory on only the sharp keys of a grand piano... " and "the inside of a sardine can, from the dumpster, behind a Michilen 3-star restaurant." Yes, the words of wine can be confusing, and often contridictory. Still, it's very interesting to read. "Stewed prunes," and "cigarbox," I get. Some of the rest is more Faulkneresque, that I can fathom. Thanks for interjecting some humor into the thread. As for the Las Vegas sommeliers, I'd guess that most did not have returns, because the clinents were buying, based on price, and had no idea what a DRC (or whatever) was supposed to taste like. Now, one would think that some of these folk, would have tasted the wines to see how they paired with the chef's fare. Apparently, none did. Hunt Thu Nov 29 17:15:40 -0800 2007 3164419 11329 Bill Hunt 1 3163576 Though Bill Hunt and I have discussed a slightly corked bottle of wine as a possible reason for your "light" wine, I don't mean to say it's the only reason. As described by others, poor storage, especially heat, will also cause this problem. It's quite difficult to tell what the cause might be without having the wine (and bottle and cork) in front of us. Wed Nov 28 18:08:35 -0800 2007 3148462 18222 maria lorraine 2 3163694 I agree, though we might NOT want to have the wine in front of us. It will be intersting to see how bottle C comes out. And, please forgive me the typo, that RicRios (hope I got that one right) pointed out in an earlier article. I owe you one - maybe a corked bottle of Gainy Central Coast SB, as I have one at hand. Hunt Wed Nov 28 18:58:54 -0800 2007 3163576 11329 Bill Hunt