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Your favourite NDG/CDN pizza delivery place

OK, I've been living in NDG for 20+ years now, and have seen pizza joints come and go. You how every now and then you get a hankering for a good Montreal pizza? Well, it seems it's getting harder and harder to find good ones these days.
Growing up in Laval in the 60s, Labelle Pizzeria was THE place, but those days are long one.

So here's my NDG rundown:

Pendelis: Old faithful Pendeli Special is a meat lovers feast, but way too greasy, way too much cheese, and tasteless sauce, which seems to be the most common downfall.

Carvelli: Better sauce, but agian, too much cheese and not enough quality ingredients.

Chicago Pizza: a nice change from the above two, but another tasteless sauce. Sigh.

B&M: So salty, you're up all night drinking water, and once again, what's with all that cheap cheese?

Al Dente: The best pizza in NDG, I think, but certainly not classic Montreal style.

Pizza Welat or Double Pizza: Both just bare bones, not very flavourful.

Bonora: Used to be quite good about 15 years ago, but last time I had it was quite disappointed.

There was one other "gourmet" delivery place that produced the worst pizza crust I've ever had. I swear it was made from Bisquick. I forgot the name, probably on purpose.

It's becoming sad. There must be some place that can deliver a tasty pizza with a really good crust.

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  1. Hi,

    We have ordered from Pizza Prima, and are quite happy with the thin crust and toppings (my husband doesn't go for the usual "North American" style pizza and he's got me convinced too). We also ordered a few times from a new place? Sul Viale (I put new with a question mark because we only just got the delivery menu about a month or so ago, but I don't know if they just started delivering or just opened- and I have to say, with all the complaining I've done about delivery service, and service in general - these people are amazing. Soooo nice over the phone, quick, efficient and polite and friendly. And the pizza was really good. I had a pasta dish once, when my husband had pizza and it was incredibly oily and greasy - so I'll stick to pizza - but the pizzas are good. We've also ordered on occasion from Pizza Pinoli, and if you specify thin crust, they're really not that bad.

    So my top vote would go to Sul Viale, Al Dente (for pizza delivery) and Pinoli.

    To me, Welat, or Double pizza don't even make the radar.

    10 Replies
    1. re: maisonbistro

      Oh dear, I think Pizza Prima may have been the place with the Bisquick crust....!

      I've heard very good things about the food at Sul Viale, but didn't know they did pizza delivery. I'll have to zip by for a menu.

      1. re: bomobob

        I don't think it was Prima with the bad crust. We're quite picky about crust (we were royally spoiled a few years ago by having eaten about 10 pizzas at Da Baffone, in Italy) and theirs (theirs being Prima not Da Baffone) really isn't bad. Da Baffone is out of this world good. It could nerver/should never be recreated in North America.

        yeah, Sul Viale is good, and as I said the service (for delivery) is really nice.

        1. re: maisonbistro

          Yeah, probably another place and not Prima. But please don't mention Italian pizza again:) It makes me want to cry, it's so good.

          1. re: maisonbistro

            Where's this Pizza Prima? I Googled and found something on Sherbrooke near Roslyn but I can't picture it in my head. I want to try it now - and Sul Viale too. Thanks!

            1. re: kpzoo

              corner sherbrooke & decarie, directly across from chalet BBQ

            2. re: maisonbistro

              Ordered from Prima tonight, and no, they definitely weren't the Bisquick crust people.
              Damn, that was one good pizza!

              1. re: bomobob

                Glad I could help. You should try the other place, Sul Viale also, and let me know what you think.

                1. re: maisonbistro

                  It's next on my list. Prima's "Mexican" was delicious. Lovely sauce, not drowning in crappy cheese, and the peppers were so perfect.

          2. Mamma Mia - it's a thinner crust, not classic Montreal style, but worth trying. It's on Cote St Luc road, and they deliver. There's also Bardeco, downtown - but it's salty (or perhaps that's just because I get their pepperoni/bacon/onion pizza...)

            2 Replies
            1. re: cherylmtl

              I love pizza and montreal defintely has a few good places. Bardecco, however, is the worst pizza i've ever had. By far! Not only was it tasteless it took the delivery guy an hour and twenty minutes to get here(i live 5 mins away from the place) and the pizza was cold to the touch. Avoid at all costs!
              My favorite places:
              Pratto on st Laurent
              Woodland Pizza in Verdun
              F&F in the plateau
              Pizza Napoletena in Little Italy
              Molissana in NDG has the best slab pizza
              Mmmm... I'm hungry.

              Bardeco Restaurant
              1676 Av Lincoln, Montreal, QC H3H1G9, CA

            2. I agree that Al Dente has the best pizza I've tried in NDG... however, I haven't ordered from there since the spinach on the vegetarian pizza I had delivered was completely full of - and I mean full of - sand! I had to throw it out. (I know - I should have called and returned it but I just wasn't up for any arguments that evening.)

              I really enjoy two pizzas from B&M and have never found them salty myself: the Santa Maria has chicken, sun-dried tomatoes (albeit too many of them), hot peppers and a few other things. I also like their vegetarian edition with artichoke hearts, fresh tomatoes, and again a few other things.

              I do like Bardeco's pizza best of all - but alas neither the downtown location nor the one in Lachine delivers to NDG.

              Edit: Just occurred to me that even though it doesn't quite fit the thread, I love getting a tomato pizza base from Molisana bakery on Somerled (half a huge sheet for $5.25) and topping it with cheese and veggies myself - in fact that's what I made last night and had leftovers for lunch, topped with caramelized onions & zucchini - yum! They also have pre-topped variations as well and if you're into meat you can stop by Tranzo's butcher across the street for some sliced pancetta or whatever you prefer.

              B & M Restaurant
              5800 Rue Sherbrooke W, Montreal, QC H4A1X3, CA

              3 Replies
              1. re: kpzoo

                not surprised at all about al dente's spinach. the restaurant itself is filthy- looks like that carpet hasn't been changed in 15+ years.

                1. re: kpzoo

                  OMG Molisana has the best tomato pizza. I used to go to an all girl's school (we're talking decades ago folks) run by Italian nuns, and they made incredible pizza - much like Molisana's.

                  I just add a bit of fresh bazil, some mozzarella di Buffala and broil it. YUMMM

                  Good job KP

                  1. re: kpzoo

                    Molisana has been one of my favourite NDG stores forever, and yes, their pizza is amazing. Equally fabulous is the Boulangerie NDG down on Upper Lachine and Melrose. But you have to get there early to get the best selection. They used to have cases full of the most amazing veg pizzas, as well as a meat monster that was out of this world, but they seem to have cut way back on those. They still have tomato pizza all the time, and it's some of the best I've ever had.

                  2. There's this place on Queen Mary near the corner of Mountain Sights called Pizza Rodi that sells pizza by the slice and I find it very good. However, I don't think they deliver but you can do take out. Funny thing though, the pizza by the slice is better than the take-out full pie (maybe it's just my crazy imagination or maybe the pizza sitting under those fluorescent lights mutates to higher levels of deliciousness...hahaha).

                    1. nothing beats a TASTY FOOD pizza with pepperoni well done. give it a try, its served on these cardboard plates and the pepperoni is really cute!

                      3 Replies
                      1. re: redroses

                        Ooh - sorry redroses, I really have to disagree about Tasty Food! It was my favourite childhood pizza back when it was on the other side of the street - but these days whenever I'm forced to have it (i.e. when my brother is visiting Montreal wanting to relive his childhood food experiences) I'm always surprised by how much the actual *pizza* tastes like cardboard!

                        1. re: kpzoo

                          thats too funny! the last time i had it was when my brother was in town. i kind of like how thw cardboard and pizza meld together. is that weird?

                          1. re: redroses

                            Never liked my pizzas at Tasty Food the 3-4 times I've tried them over the years. Among the very few pizzerias in Montreal, making a pan pizza(they have done it from the start, if my memory is correct).

                      2. There's a full-page ad in one of the NDG weeklies advertising the launch of a Pizza Pizza on Sherbrooke at Girouard. I know this is a chain, but I've never had it before - does anyone know if it's any good? My hopes are never very high for chains, as a rule.

                        (As an aside, the ad strangely did not include a phone number for delivery. They seemed to be promoting a walk-in special - but still, not publishing the phone no. for a pizza delivery joint is kind of odd.)

                        I did try Pizza Prima a few weeks ago but must admit I was underwhelmed - it was not horrible, but had very little flavour and the mozarella had an odd taste to it that I've noticed on other cheap pizzas.

                        28 Replies
                        1. re: kpzoo

                          Pizza Pizza used to be all over Montreal, but vanished over 10 years ago. I have to admit, I used to love their pan pizza, and the fact that their ingredients were really fresh. I got very excited when I saw them re-opening on Sherbrooke. In fact, there's also a second one further west. I think it was near Benny, but I just caught it out of the corner of my eye last night.
                          I'm going to swing by tonight to pick one up (Thursday is pizza night!), so I'll report back.

                          737-1111, just like it used to be.

                          I've tried Prima twice now, and really quite liked it, except for the gawd-awful chicken pizza, which I never order because chicken on pizza is always dry and horrible, but I had a momentary lapse of reason. Anyway, all the others were really nice. Not piled up with tons of stuff, but sparse and tasty, like in Italy, or at Napoletana, which does not deliver to NDG :)

                          1. re: bomobob

                            > In fact, there's also a second one further west. I think it was near Benny,
                            > but I just caught it out of the corner of my eye last night.

                            Oh my, you're right. That's so embarrassing - it's actually right around the corner from my house, I just never paid any attention to it and they don't seem to send around their menu like the other places do.

                            Let me know how you like it and what kind you got. Thx!

                            1. re: kpzoo

                              Oh yeah, I also ordered form Sul Viali, and yes, they were extremely nice on the phone. Unfortunately, it was one of those really miserable nights after the first storm, so it took a long time and was barely warm when it arrived. Not a fair test. It was still very good, but piping hot and fresh would have been much better.

                              1. re: bomobob

                                Hey KP and BoB- I've never had Pizza Pizza but I have to say I'm a little bit of a snob, and just tend to shun the big chains. Bob - you put chicken on your pizza??? disgraceful. Chicken belongs across the street at Chalet BBQ dunked in sauce, on the fork with some fries and a silly hamburger bun, that just seems to work with the whole thing.

                                Definitely give Sul Viale another go - they really do good stuff (except for an overly greasy pasta I had once - don't even remember what it was)- when it comes to pizza. And that nice guy on the phone, you can't beat him!

                                KP - check your latest PubliSac - there was a decent (considering where it came from) calendar from Pizza Pizza, with a menu on the last page.

                                1. re: maisonbistro

                                  > KP - check your latest PubliSac

                                  You're right - it's in my recycling bin but I'll pull it out - thanks. :-)

                                  correction - whoops, no, that one seems to be Double Pizza?

                                  1. re: maisonbistro

                                    I know, I know...I sometimes think I live at Chalet BBQ. Chicken on pizza is NEVER good, ever, never, ever. It was..oh, I don't know, just one of those moments, you know when you read the menu and you think, mmm, that sounds good, and you lose sight of reality.
                                    I love the hamburger buns, BTW.

                                    I don't like the pizza chains either, especially Domino's, partly because they have had some controversial donation policies in the past, partly because their phone number is the same as mine, save for one digit, which means I get calls at all hours for pizza (yes, I do take the orders...), and partly because their pizza is more disgusting than Pizza Hut.

                                    Pizza Pizza was always different. You could choose the ingredients, the crust was extremely good, and the sauce actually had not just flavour, which is rare, but good flavour.

                                    1. re: bomobob

                                      No, you can't live at Chalet BBQ, because I do... (seriously, my family is there so often, the people working there are on a first-name basis with us.)

                                      As for Pizza Pizza, I've had to have it a few times recently when in Ontario (and there were truly no other choices) and while it used to be passable, it really isn't anymore. Artificial overwhelming garlic-powdery taste, rubbery cheese, salty, the list goes on... I'd be surprised if the pies here are any better.

                                      F&F is tempting, though - does anyone know when the Westmount location opened?

                                      1. re: cherylmtl

                                        OK, I volunteer to be the sacrificial lamb for PP tonight. Not passable anymore, huh? I'll keep that in mind and go in with no expectations, 'cause even passable ain't good enough.

                                        1. re: bomobob

                                          You're a brave person, bomobob...

                                          1. re: bomobob

                                            Taking one for the team... I like it.

                                            I have been bemoaning the status of pizza in Montreal for a while. This post has me feeling hopeful again. You seem like an expert on this, so I would love to hear your opinions and narrow down my search.

                                            I love big sloppy American pizza. I am particularly fond of Chcago deep dish. Montreal has a lot of places with good "fancy" pizza (thin crust, wood-burning oven, gourmet ingredients yadda yadda yadda, but sometimes you just want a big slice of Zaa. Nothing fancy. The closest I have found in Montreal is Amelio's ( but the darn place is always closed when I want pizza, usually Sunday afternoon in front of the football game). I also like the thin crust pizza at Napolitana in Little Italy. I don't often order pizza from other places, as my expecations are too high. Do any of the places posted here compare to my two standards? Which places would I be most likely to enjoy? Thanks very much for your advice!

                                            1. re: moh

                                              I've let you all down...mea culpa. PP doesn't deliver yet, and parking at Sherbrooke/Girouard is impossible. I ordered from Chicago Pizza instead. Good pizza, but only one note, which is too bad.

                                              For big sloppy American pizza, you might really like a Pendeli's special, black olives, no anchovies. But have a big jar of hot peppers handy or some sambal olek to smear on it. Their crust is a few notches above bog standard, but nothing like Napoletana. I call it the Chomedey crust because it reminds me of the old Labelle Pizzeria. Doughy, a little chewy. I order from the Cote. St. Luc Road one, but I don't know the Ville St. Laurent or Outremont ones are related.

                                              I used to go to Amelio's back in the day, but always hated the way if you tipped your hand just 10 degrees, everything would slide off on an oil slick.

                                              1. re: bomobob

                                                Yeah, I hate the fact that i have to eat Amelio's with a knife and fork (that's not right)... Will have to give Pendeli's a try!

                                                1. re: moh

                                                  when I lived in that neighborhood Pendeli's was our favorite. Their pepperoni is unique- longer stips, very thinly sliced, and put on top of the cheese for a wonderful crispiness. Our standard was bacon, mushroom, and pepperoni, although the special is probably fantastic too.

                                                  (I'm in St. Laurent now and order from St. Laurent pizzeria or Du College restaurant. Both make a fine american-style pie chock full of topppings. We've tried all chains and they skimp out on toppings and taste like crap next to these two.)

                                                  1. re: C70

                                                    I used to love Pines Pizza, way way back, but that's long gone (and probably should have been gone sooner than it was, considering how the quality declined in its later years).

                                                2. re: bomobob

                                                  > PP doesn't deliver yet

                                                  Ah well - that probably explains why there was no phone number in the ad, I guess. ;-)

                                                  And now I'm wondering if that really is a Pizza Pizza on Sherbrooke & Benny (and maybe not a Double Pizza?) - I don't see any Montreal locations when using their store locator: http://www.pizzapizza.ca/frames_locat...

                                                  I'll have to walk by and see....

                                                  1. re: kpzoo

                                                    Whatever opened on Girouard and Sherbrooke is the same that opened on Sherbrooke W near the Blockbuster. I would have sworn up and down that it was a Pizza Pizza - just drove by both of them this evening, you think I couldn't taken a closer look!!!

                                                    1. re: kpzoo

                                                      Yeah, it's definitely a Pizza Pizza. I looked on their website too, but they're obviously a bit behind the times and don't list anything outside Ontario. The Benny one didn't look like it was quite ready to open. It's a bit funny that they don't deliver yet, because their little SUV thingies have been all over NDG for the last week, but I guess it's just for promotion.

                                        2. re: bomobob

                                          Sur Viale from what I gather with a wood-burning oven, makes a thin gourmet pizza. Those type of pizzas I would never have it delivered, as it gets soggy fast.

                                          1. re: BLM

                                            Well, as previously posted, I've had their pizzas often (it's delivery once a week at my house) and their pizzas are one of the best delivery pizzas I've had. Thin, crispy crust, great fresh toppings, great great service, you can't beat them.

                                            We're not talking Pizza hut pizzas here - this isn't the spongy dough crust, with fake pepperoni and wax cheese and pre cut peppers, onions etc... This is real pizza.

                                            1. re: maisonbistro

                                              I ordered pizza from them based on your rec. from an earlier thread, and I did not regret it. They are light years ahead of any other pizza place that I've tried in the area. I wouldn't call their pizza thin crust, but it is in the thin crust family. Thanks for the great recommendation.

                                              1. re: Moosemeat

                                                Glad I didn't steer you wrong. And wasn't the service (at least on the phone) great too?? They are just so nice. What a change from the norm.

                                                1. re: maisonbistro

                                                  I can't say that their service is any better or worse than the average delivery place, but there's certainly nothing wrong with it.
                                                  BTW, I tried two of their pasta dishes tonight (Gnocci w. gorgonzola & walnuts and Tagliatelle Verde.) and I am truly impressed. The only comparable restaurant in the area is Pasta Cassereccia, which is almost twice the price.

                                                  1. re: Moosemeat

                                                    See, that's where I disagree. The service to me - courteous, friendly. efficient- was (is) totally different from what I get pretty much anywhere else . But heck, as along as we agree on the food, then what's to quibble?

                                                    1. re: maisonbistro

                                                      I finally ordered from Sul Viale yesterday - yes, the guy on the phone was super-helpful and friendly, answered all of my questions, and when they said it would take about 30 minutes to deliver the pizzas, they were pretty accurate (it was actually a wee bit longer, but not by much). Perhaps I live a bit farther than maisonbistro, because the crusts on ours were not crispy - although they weren't soggy either. I liked the pizzas, although I thought they were a little light on the seasonings (ie - garlic). But that may just be the ones we ordered, and a splash of flavoured oil would have gone a long way towards remedying that, had we had any in the house... The cheese was very good, though - does anyone know what kind of cheese they use? It didn't look or taste like the typical "mozzarella" you find on most pizzas here.

                                                      1. re: cherylmtl

                                                        I think most of their pizzas have a mix of mozzarella and fontina cheese, real mozza though, not the part skim stuff most pizza places use.

                                                  2. re: maisonbistro

                                                    Agree they're very nice on the phone when ordering, almost makes a girl blush.................. But after receiving a large delivery order, I noticed the charge was *way* higher than expected. Check the menu vs the bill and we were charged
                                                    $1-2 more on every item ordered. I phoned them back and inquired, he said "oh, we have new prices and you must have an old menu." I asked him "then why did you attach the same old menu with our order today?" well, yadda, yah, yah,.....whatever. That's what we both basically said to each other on the down-CLICK. Service is nice when it feels good, I'm all with that.

                                        3. re: bomobob

                                          From what I remember Pizza Pizza first opened in Montreal about 20 years ago, & they lasted maybe 2 years before they closed all their Montreal locations. They were all over Montreal then?

                                          Are their still anymore Little Caesars pizza locations in the Montreal-area?

                                          1. re: BLM

                                            There is one on Samson west in a strip mall in Ste-Dorothee, Laval that we ordered from this past summer. The website though lists only Fabreville, DDO and Kirkland.

                                      2. Does anyone have anything to say about F&F pizza? There's one in Westmount that delivers to most of NDG. I'm just curious because I've been by the one in Mile-End many times and never dared to try it.

                                        3 Replies
                                        1. re: SnackHappy

                                          Colour me clueless, what's F & F? - which also means, no, never tried them - or even heard of them, I think.

                                            1. re: carswell

                                              Thanks. Okay, does this put me in the "not fit to be a Chowhound" category???

                                        2. Too bad we are not in Paris!! Pizza 12 looks like the way to go...


                                          1. I've tried the Pizza Pizza on Sherbrooke and Benny and I'm underwhelmed. The toppings were very fresh and the pizza looked very attractive but.... the cheese was very meager and scant and the tomato sauce tasted very bland like it was made from one part canned crushed tomato and one part canned whole tomato pureed in a blender--no herbs or garlic, and the crust tasted like instant bread dough; a little sourdough taste would have been appreciated. I can't see myself ordering from there again. BTW, I had the all-dressed pizza and not one of their "gourmet pizzas".

                                            1 Reply
                                            1. re: JadeMyst

                                              I finally gave it a shot as well, and while not blown away, it wasn't bad at all. I made sure to order the "vielle maman style maison" sauce, or whatever it's called, and chose the toppings, rather than go with the listed pizzas. Thin crust, of course, because thick crusts are most often under or uncooked in the middle. It was not heaped with cheese, it's true, which is actually the way I prefer it, but the cheese was not the usual vulcanized crap.

                                            2. Finally tried both Pizza Prima and Pizza Pizza. Verdict: Both are mediocre, acceptable only if you want cheap eats in bulk for a crowd, which was how we sampled them. We tried an all-dressed and a vegetarian from each place.

                                              Pizza Pizza was extremely skimpy on the cheese, just a tiny bit on each slice. The toppings, particularly on the veggie pizza, were also very stingily applied. The crust was way too thick and doughy. The taste: bland city. The one nice thing was that the call centre lady* let me substitute artichoke hearts for mushrooms at no extra charge.

                                              * Interestingly, call centre lady was in Ottawa - when she asked what city I wanted my delivery made, I just had to ask where the heck *she* was! Maybe this is common with chain restos, but since I never usually order from them, this was my first experience of being asked which city I was in when calling in a delivery order...

                                              Pizza Prima was very much the same in terms of blandness, I'm afraid. Nothing memorable about it whatsoever.

                                              So for me and hubby, it's back to B&M and Al Dente. I've yet to try Sul Viale, and would still like to. In a group setting and where budget is a big concern, both PP's are not horrible, but really not what I'd like to be eating too often.

                                              5 Replies
                                              1. re: kpzoo

                                                B&M makes an excellent pie, except that every now and then you’ll get one with really substandard, past their best-before date, ingredients. To me, serving anything in this state is unacceptable, and it’s put me off ever dealing with them again. Doubly so because a polite call about the problem to the women who answers the phone is met with a frosty, if not downright rude, reception. Too bad, because more reliable ingredients and decent staff and I’d be a regular.

                                                1. re: erich wiess

                                                  OMG that woman who takes the orders is just not to be believed. I called 2 weeks ago, 'cause we only wanted some salads, and I swear to God I felt like an "issue" that needed to be dealt with, rather than a customer calling to make an order.

                                                  Try Sul Viale, if only for the incredibly gracious phone service.

                                                  1. re: erich wiess

                                                    > substandard, past their best-before date, ingredients

                                                    Ugh! Fortunately that's never happened to me, but I only order from there about once every 6-8 weeks or so. What kind of ingredients have been below par?

                                                    1. re: erich wiess

                                                      About B&M. That sounds right (frosty reception) but if you eat at their dining room restaurant on Somerled .. the service is fantasic and the food is fantastic and since it's the next generation that's running the restaurant (the children of the two owners ), they are more receptive to talking about problems, of which I've only had one and it was quickly resolved. Since I live a block away from the dining location, I usually call them for pickup instead of calling the delivery location on Sherbrooke.

                                                      1. re: foodjunkieNDG

                                                        >>"Since I live a block away from the dining location, I usually call them for pickup instead of calling the delivery location on Sherbrooke."

                                                        Interesting - I didn't know you could do that! I also live a block away. Is the takeout menu exactly the same as the Sherbrooke location? thanks.

                                                  2. Mamma Mia's on CSL Road corner Hampton & California Pizza on Decarie corner Plamondon are 2 of my favorites. If you prefer an AD pizza that weighs about 2 pounds, then B&M is your place but IMHO it's not nicknamed the bowel movement for no good reason. Pendellis on CSL road is ok but the one in St-Laurent made my cast iron tummy quite ill last week.

                                                    3 Replies
                                                    1. re: RhondaB

                                                      I’ve tried Sul Viale, and I concur that their service is first class. They could give a customer-appreciation clinic for that harridan working the phone over at B and M. As to what elements of the pizza were stale, my wife believes it was the pepperoni – I can't recall, except that on two occasions it smelled and tasted “off”. The first time I called about it and was rudely dismissed, the second time I swore off the place for good. I will give both Mamma Mia's and California Pizza a try – thanks for the tip!

                                                      For this evening though, I making my own.

                                                      1. re: erich wiess

                                                        The service is first class, that is if you go there but waiting for a delivery when your stomach is growling is an annoying feeling. During the week delivery service is nothing to brag about but on the weekends it is horrible. 1 hour to 2 hour waits. I can't leave my house often due to my young kids so I always have food delivered. I order from many pizza restaurants in ndg but on the weekend i steer clear of sul viale. They do deserve a thumbs up for their service tho. I've been on two separate occasions and they have very clean restaurant and above first class waiters.

                                                        1. re: ndgpizzalover

                                                          That's weird because I have never waiting over 45 mins for their food to be delivered. You should mention that next time you call (if you order from there agani) - it might make a difference - that's the way they are.