Ideas Wanted for Substitute for Buttermilk in Fried Chicken

[niki rothman]

Yikes! My lactose intolerance is getting worse, and I just cannot think of what to substitute for the buttermilk into which one dips the chicken pieces before frying.
Any ideas???

Thanks!

[maria lorraine]

Niki, there are several ways to create a developed crust for your chicken. I wonder if you are aware of the breading method called Anglais. It's a three-step breading process:
1) Roll the chicken in seasoned flour 2) Dip the chicken in a mixture of eggs beaten with a small amount of water 3) roll the chicken gently into flour again.

You can also dip the chicken into egg before the very first dip into flour...so the sequence would be egg, flour, egg, flour. Once the egg and flour layers hit the oil, they solidify and create a crunchy coating. Good luck.

[maria lorraine]

Just read these four fried chicken recipes -- two use flour and water...
http://www.ajc.com/living/content/liv...

[paprkutr]

I keep a kosher home so I don't use milk with meat, chicken etc. I use Mocha Mix for everything, just take a little of the off and add some lemon juice to equal what you need. It bakes well, heats well, and I use it for everything. Good luck

[niki rothman]

Great idea! And I feel guilty for being to lazy to keep kosher. But I've heard that even for the not very observant - every time you do eat a kosher meal - it is a Mitzvah.

But in any case, good idea. What I do for milk, even with cereal, is whisk coffeemate and water with a dash of salt - BUT does it curdle or thicken with the addition of acid - thickened liquid is key for adherence of the crumbs, four, etc.

[Diane in Bexley]

Nikki, have you tried soy based milk with a little vinegar or lemon juice? Frankly, I make my chicken oven fried and coat it with low fat mayo, dip it in flour, then seasoned bread crumbs or panko and drizzle some canola or EVOO over it. Key is to bake on rack over cookie sheet, turns out very crispy. Doesn't smell up house like stovetop frying and is healthier too.

[niki rothman]

Hi Diane in Bexley!

Are you in the UK? I LOVE Britain!

You are totally brilliant! Mayo is w WONDERFUL idea!
Could you please, please, please type out the exact recipe here, along with oven temp - all that good advice. I can't wait to try your recipe. Would you ever take the skin off before dipping in the mayo and crust (as I suppose there is a health reason for baking and not frying?)

Thanks!

[Diane in Bexley]

No, Niki, I am in Columbus, OH. Bexley is a suburb. I don't really have an exact recipe per se for the chicken. I use Hellmann's low fat mayo, put some in a small bowl. Use a pastry brush (or your fingers! LOL) to smear heavily on boneless skinless chix breasts. In 2 pie plates, put some AP flour seasoned with Lawry's seasoned salt, lots of black pepper in one and in the other Progresso Italian bread crumbs or panko with garlic powder, s&p. Pat flour on breasts then bread crumbs. Arrange on greased cookie sheet with wire rack. Preheat oven to 375. Bake for 20-30 min, depending on size of breast and thickness.

[niki rothman]

Hi Diane,
Let me see if I got this right...smear on the mayo, then pat on flour and then crumbs. But I am surprised you do wet then dry and MORE dry. If the flour is on what does the crumb stick to? I've always seen flour, then liquid, then more flour or crumbs. So, dry - wet - dry?
No?

[Diane in Bexley]

Niki, sometime I get lazy and mix flour with crumbs. It seems to work. By putting mayo on first, there is a base for mixtures to stick to.

[danhole]

I was going to suggest mayo as well, but she beat me to the punch! I have done this before, but not with the flour. I just smeared mayo on the chicken and then pressed in the breading. This is really good with the french's fried onions, as well as bread crumbs or panko.

[chef chicklet]

potato buds work too, and the mayo is a terrific idea.

[danhole]

Not only potato buds, but crunched up potato chips, or corn chips.

[Diane in Bexley]

Also have made this with crushed corn flakes!

[MakingSense]

Have you even heated mayo? Try putting a couple of spoonfuls in the microwave and see what happens. It breaks down into oil and some clumps of what was probably egg, stabilizers and other stuff. Might as well dip the chicken in oil, egg or a combo.

These methods of cooking chicken do produce tasty meals but they may not give you the classic fried chicken you're looking for.
All the other coatings, even bread crumbs, have flavor of their own - other than the simple flour used in fried chicken - so you end up with something completely different.

[Diane in Bexley]

MakingSense, have been dipping chicken in mayo for almost 25 years. Works great. Can use light mayo to cut down on calories.

[MakingSense]

I sometimes use mayo for fish on the grill. Nothing wrong with it as a cooking method. It's just not "classic fried chicken" especially if you use something other than flour as a coating. You still have a tasty chicken, fish, pork or whatever dish.
Light mayo cuts the calories by the addition of water to the emulsion. It might make the final product a little softer. Try putting a few spoonfuls of lite mayo in the MW and see what happens. The same will occur from the heat of cooking your chicken.

[WCchopper]

Do you know if kefir is tolerable for you? I have heard of it being acceptable for those who are lactose intolerant, although a allergy is obviosly different. Kefir is tangy like buttermilk though.

[niki rothman]

To those kind folks who replied with questions about my lactose tolerance - I'm very much afraid to test it is the bottom line because of the violence of my reaction over several very unpleasant days. Not much trouble with hard cheeses or even cream cheese in small amounts but that's as far as I feel safe going.

I had an idea for dippin chicken myself though - what about using soy milk with lemon juice in it? Maybe heat the soy milk first with corn starch to thicken it?

[WCchopper]

Maybe just brining it with a little acid in the brine and then not drying it off completely before dredging it in flour would work.

[niki rothman]

Well, I want the thickness of the 3 layers dipping. Brining chicken is something I have yet to try and will try one of these days but it is really the crust I am after with the buttermilk.

[C. Hamster]

Try using self rising flour

[niki rothman]

Yes, Chef Paul Prudhomme recommends adding a lot of baking powder and baking soda to the dipping flour.

You are right. Good idea.

[WCchopper]

I actually brine mine in buttermilk et al. and make one pass through the flour, then let it sit to firm up the crust. I don't really dip it more than once. Not that I'm being particularly helpful to you! But my lactose intolerant frind can manage kefir since the lactic sugar(?) is eaten up by the kefir culture. It might not hurt to read a little about it to see if that would work?

[niki rothman]

Unfortunately, I cannot tolerate yogurt type products. And about the brining - yes, I've got to try it for temderness, juciness - but with the buttermilk subs. request I was looking to the coating - the 3 layer style and hoping for some thick liquid that would hold lots of crust on the bird.
Thanks, tho'.

[daveena]

If you can tolerate cream cheese (even a small amount), you can definitely tolerate buttermilk. Fresh cheeses have way more lactose than buttermilk does (and you won't even be ingesting very much - I can't imagine it would add up to more than a spoonful or two for a serving of fried chicken).

Don't forget - lactase-treated milk is very sweet, so you may end up with sweet fried chicken if you use it.

Soy milk with lemon juice sounds awful. Just use the buttermilk. Take two extra-strength Lactaid before the chicken, if you're that worried, but honestly - I'm really lactose intolerant - my lower GI system can identify truffles made with fresh cream more reliably than my palate can - and I can eat buttermilk fried chicken, no problem (without premedicating).

[niki rothman]

I actually think it is the upper GI system and stomach which are sensitive to lactose because it is the stomach and small intestine that add the enzymes that break down the lactose into their molecular components. The lower intestine - large intestine - only does one thing - it absorbs water. But with all the gassy symptoms one can easily understand thinking it was the large intestine reacting.

About the acidifying soy milk or lactaid lactose free milk - you are better off adding lemon for sweet baking and white vinegar for savory cooking.- taste wise.

[daveena]

Well... it's the bacteria in the colon that ferment the undigested sugars into gas. So I opted to credit the half directly responsible for the tooting.

However, looks like I'm totally wrong about the lactose content of buttermilk - looked at a few sites, and while none of them seem to be in total agreement, it does look like buttermilk has a lot more lactose than I had thought (and more than cream cheese, percentage wise).

There's a Chinese breakfast dish of coagulated soy milk - I was told that it's the vinegar that's responsible for the coagulation - so while I have not tried it myself, it's possible that adding acid to soy milk will actually give you curds, rather than a thickened dipping liquid.

[TSQ75]

vegan friends of mine commonly use vinegar-added, or lemon-added soy milk as a sub for buttermilk

[niki rothman]

Hi TSO75,

Does adding vinegar to the soy milk thicken it? I'm looking for a thick liquid to help the crust adhere to the chicken.

Thanks!

[niki rothman]

Hi Daveena,
This is interesting, isn't it (ick!) but there should be NO sugars whatsoever left in the colon by the time the remains of digestion reach it. Sugars, next to alcohol, are the very first things digested from the small intestine - that is why sugar and alcohol go to work so very fast and if we don't work it off it's removed from the bloodstream and stored as fat. All that's left for the colon to do is remove water and transport what is feftover that is completely undigestible - out of the body.

I'm thinking about buying the non-dairy sour cream product called "IMO" and diluting with water to the thickness of buttermilk - seems to be the easilest and least risky - to my health - solution.

Thanks!

[daveena]

Right, but since we're unable to break lactose down into absorbable sugars, it stays in the intestine and causes osmotic diarrhea. Same concept with lactulose (an indigestible sugar-based laxative). And why Splenda can cause diarrhea.

I like the diluted non-dairy sour cream idea, in terms of coming closest to the flavor you'd get from buttermilk.

[niki rothman]

Oh, silly me, now I see your point. Duh...

I am shocked Splenda is dairy related. I use a LOT of it because of my black tea addiction. AND I have habitual diahrrea which I thought was just part of the baggage of my gastric bypass woes...

[daveena]

Ack, I'm not writing clearly today. Sorry about that.

I don't think Splenda's dairy related, but it IS a non-absorbable sugar. I don't know why more people don't get diarrhea from Splenda - it doesn't seem to be a universal side effect. Anyway, see what happens if you cut down on it.

Yummy thoughts for the cooking board! Sorry everyone :)

[niki rothman]

OK, will try. Perhaps I should go back to Equal?

[daveena]

I suppose so... out of curiosity, I looked up aspartame to see if it's been linked to diarrhea, and it has, but I would guess it's less likely than Splenda to cause problems.

A better solution would be to find a delicious black tea doesn't need sweetening :)

[danhole]

You are fortunate that you can tolerate the Lactaid. I tried that when I first became lactose intolerant, and had the worst reaction to it. It was almost like anaphaylactic (sp?) shock, but my throat didn't swell, but my BP dipped so low I thought I would die.I ended up on the floor in the hallway until someone came and found me. Scary!

[niki rothman]

Hi Dan,
Don't get me wrong, I do NOT know that I will tolerate the Lactaid. I was just stupidly assuming I will tolerate it, based on the further assumption that "no lactose...no problem." This as you show could be a BIG mistake. How could I test how I wiill react without risking my life?
P.S.
Is your health OK now? Is it very difficult to totally avoid the ingredients that are literally poison to you?
My prayers are with you.

[HillJ]

niki, could you tolerate dipping the chicken in applesauce and breadcrumbs? Or ketchup and breadcrumbs? I do this for the kids all the time and they love it.

[danhole]

I have no idea as to how you could test your tolerance for Lactaid. I will say that I am somewhat of a freak when it comes to allergies. I was the only person in the allergy clinic that was allergic to the allergy shots. It was something in the base mixture that they used that put me into shock every time, until they developed a special base for me. I also cannot take flu shots for the same reason. I just read in a separate post that you cannot OD on Lactaid, but the first time I used it I only used one, and when I tried it again (in order to eat a baked potato with butter, cheese and sour cream fool that I am) I took two. That is when I had the reaction.

I have gotten a bit better over the years, and cut out a lot of dairy from my diet. It seems to come and go, so to say. Sometimes I am fine, and 2 days later I am miserable. I really need to keep a food diary to figure out exactly what it is that is the worst, because I do love my cheese! Other than that, it isn't difficult to avoid the foods if you know you are going to "pay" for it later! And it's probably a good way to control my weight! Thanks for the prayers. You are in my thoughts as well.

[woodburner]

There was this recipe from good ole Paula Deen, that called for cracking about 4 or so eggs, and thinning it with about a cup -- yes, a cup -- of Franks hot sauce. Franks is a great pepper sauce for taste, but not particularly hot. She swore "you won't end up with hot chicken, but it will be great." It was. I do it all the time now. Also, she uses self rising flour. just hit the chicken with a rub or S&P, dunk in the egg/sauce mix, then into the flour (season the flour, too). fry as normal. outstanding. please try it.

[niki rothman]

I've got to try this one too!
Thanks!

[chef chicklet]

You will love this one if you like hot sauce. I use Crystal, have not seen Franks, but it is just the best fried chicken, which I dearly love. Hope it works for you..

[MakingSense]

I use Crystal, too. Also for grilled chicken. Marinate in straight Crystal, then use a soy sauce based mopping sauce.
Never have used buttermilk. Nobody in my family ever has.

[chef chicklet]

I use several hot sauces for cooking and greens, Crystal has that vinegary flavor, and the consistency is perfect in this use, don't you think?

[niki rothman]

I am interested in using a hot sauce as part of the coating mix (wet part) but everybody should be aware that some hot sauces contain a lot of sodium benzoate - to keep the red color I suppose, yet many hot sauces are preservative free. Citric acid is a very harm - LESS preservative.

[chef chicklet]

I like the heat mostly Niki, just added my note for the use as a flavoring sorry forgot you are looking for options to dairy products. What about using milk from corn? or unsweetened coconut? Are you looking for the buttermilk to give you tang? Add lime or lemon to the coconut, then flour and dip/ might work?

[niki rothman]

I love the heat too, cheffie, but I hate the preservatives except for citric acid - which is actually in some hot sauces - it is harmless.

I am looking for a thick liquid that will help the crust to adhere to the pieces of cicken.

Thanks1

[piccola]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard that fermented dairy products aren't as bad for lactose intolerance. So maybe yogurt or kefir?

Otherwise, try a ceviche-type marinade. It should tenderize the meat like the buttermilk would have.

[paulj]

Buttermilk is a cultured dairy product like yogurt. Think of it as non-fat sour cream (without the thickeners either). The traditional by product of butter making is usually not sold in markets.

Does fryer chicken need tenderizing these days?

When chicken is soaked in buttermilk, how much milk is left on the pieces when they are coated with flour?

paulj

[maria lorraine]

That's a good question about the milk, paulj.,,just how much milk are we talking about on a couple pieces of chicken? And what happens to the lactose when the chicken is fried in hot oil? Does it change into a more digestible sugar?

[niki rothman]

You are right - we are not talking about much milk at all. Trouble is, it acts like a real poison to me.

[niki rothman]

My use of buttermilk is aimed at building a proper southern fried chicken thick crust to fry up to a succulent golden chewy-brown deliciosusness.

[MakingSense]

Then, of course, there are some of us Southerners who don't find that awful old "thick crust" to be "proper" at all.
Some of that stuff is achieved by dipping the chicken in batter which is really nasty, only made worse if the cook adds honey.

[niki rothman]

Weeelll...Chef Paul Prudhomme is one of my personal cooking heroes and he's a Southern cook. He does fried chix with the 3 dip method, buttermilk, and lotsa baking powder and baking soda in the flour.

[maria lorraine]

Good idea with the yogurt, piccola. Fermented dairy products have about half or less the lactose of milk. Here are the measurements of lactose in dairy products:

Yogurt, plain, low-fat, 1 cup 5 g
Milk, reduced fat, 1 cup 11 g
Swiss cheese, 1 oz. 1 g
Ice cream, 1/2 cup 6 g
Cottage cheese, 1/2 cup 2–3 g

Source: http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddisea...

[paulj]

A search on lactose and buttermilk turns up:
"Summary of Safe Milk Products.

* Lactase treated milk
* Natural yoghurt, preferably one with live culture
* Aged, fermented cheeses
* Dry cottage cheese
* Cultured sour cream
* Cultured buttermilk
* Cultured butter
"""
http://www.telusplanet.net/public/eke...

paulj

[niki rothman]

Thanks, Lactase is the only one that is in the running - from your list. And thanks for doing that. I wonder if lkactase thickens up enough. homemade vinegar/milk buttermilk is watery compared to store bought buttermilk which is wonderfully thick.
There is thids product called "Imo" which is the coffeemate of sour cream - I am seriously considering using this strange product watered down a bit for chix dipping.

[niki rothman]

Of your list the only thing I can tolerate is hard cheese. Too bad you can't use it to dip chicken into : )

[maria lorraine]

Niki,

The acid in the buttermilk is a tenderizer. The traditional substitute for buttermilk is one cup milk plus 1 T. vinegar. In your case, use lactose-free milk.

By the way, do you know how much lactose content (by grams) triggers a reaction? Plain yogurt and buttermilk have far less lactose than milk. Might be good for you to know the levels of lactose in many products; you can read them here:
http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddisea...

Take note of hidden lactose in these foods (actually in far greater concentrations than in dairy products): bread and other baked goods, processed breakfast cereals, instant potatoes, soups, and breakfast drinks, margarine, lunch meats (other than kosher), salad dressings, candies and other snacks, mixes for pancakes, biscuits, and cookies, powdered meal-replacement supplements.

Finally, are you sure that what you suffer from is a lactase deficiency? Sure it's not a milk allergy, a reaction to milk proteins, or a reaction to tyramines? Lactose intolerance can fade in and out, and can appear in those who don't have it (or become worse in those who do) after a diarrheal illness, use of antibiotics, chemotherapy and lots of other conditions.

[niki rothman]

Thanks Maria for such a thoughtful reply. It does seem to be a lactose intolerarnce as i lost the first 5 feet of my small intestine. This part I think handles the lactose. Although small amounts of cream cheese, once in a while do seem OK. But it is such I violent reaction and lasts for days that I really fear testing my limits. So far, there have been great suggesstions for use of mustard, egg, lactose free milk made into buttermilk via vinegar - I'll try these.

[niki rothman]

Thanks! Yes, it is lactase insuffiviency as I lost much of my stomach and 5 feet of small intestine. I have trouble with yogurt. In fact, I may well have trouble with other foods too, so thanks for suggesting that, no one else has. I should get my GI MD to check that out.

I wanted the thick product thinking, rather than tenderizing, that it was recommended for dipping for frying crusts because the thickness held more crumbs or flour on the bird.

[C. Hamster]

Generally you soak the chicken in buttermilk - not dip it.

You can brine the chicken and then do the traditional flour/egg/crumb coating or just egg and flour.

[niki rothman]

I could try that with lactaid and vinegar. But I did think the tickness of the crust is related to the thckness of the adhering liquid., no?

[paulj]

In your use, what is purpose of the buttermilk? Tenderizing the chicken, sour flavor, helping the flour stick? There are a lot of frying recipes that don't use buttermilk. For example chicken fried steak often uses a 3 stage dip - flour, egg, more flour or crumbs. Chinese deep frying uses corn starch or corn starch and egg. I don't recall what the Japanese use as a base under panko.

paulj

[OysterHo]

Heavy cream has less lactose, but I really don't know how it would work with fried chicken.

[TSQ75]

I use mustard for dipping when I fry fish. I also find that the mustardy flavor doesnt linger heavily at all...

[rabaja]

This is a great suggestion. I have a friend who whisks dijon with an egg or two, then tosses cut up, boneless chicken into it before dredging in panko and frying. They are very good chicken fingers. You still need to season the meat with a little salt and pepper, but the mustard will contribute some saltiness, so don't go overboard. The mustard is not at all overpowering, and most kids seem to love these.
You could certainly use bone in pieces too.

[ccbweb]

My ideas would be a soy based yogurt or, if you use lactose-free milk you might add a tablespoon of vinegar per cup of milk. I know it works with regular milk as I use it on occasion as a substitute for buttermilk when I'm out.

[niki rothman]

I've also used milk and lemon juice for a buttermilk sub. in baking. So, I could try lactaid but the resultant buttermilk is just not very thick at all. And for soy milk, DOES soy milk curdle with an acid, or do tofu makers use something else to coagulate? Beacause for chicken dipping - the thickness is the goal.