452098 Thu Oct 18 15:52:17 -0700 2007 43 29 Not About Food 0 3047802 I'm a 21 year old culinary arts student. The other night for dinner, I made chicken breasts filled with stuffing (tasty by the way).. I learned yesterday that stuffing must be chilled before coming into contact with raw meat. I feel a little silly asking (being a student of cooking) but why is that? Thu Oct 18 15:52:17 -0700 2007 106169 linz_e_moore 1 3047857 Stuffing in general is rather risky in terms of health/food-poising. Remember, heat travels from the outside of meat inward (duh), so the stuffing and meat juices it gets might not be cooked to a safe temperatur by the time the whole bird/piece of meat is done. However, you can put the stuffing in a cloth bag (there are stuffing bags you can buy) and then insert it and then take the stuffing out when the bird is done and then cook the stuffing separately in a pan until it reaches a safe temperature to kill all the potential microbial nasties. Doing this also allows you to mush the stuffing up for a nice chewy texture. Alton Brown has covered this topic in numerous shows and came up with a slogan "stuffing is evil." However in another show he stuffed some pork chops that he later grilled - he explained that things like chops and breasts are small enough that the heat can travel to the stuffing quickly enough to get it at a safe temperature. He has also said that roulades are safe (when you spread a stuffing on a flat piece of meat and roll it up). Here is a transcript of the stuffing show: http://www.goodeatsfanpage.com/Season8/stuffing/stuffing_transcript.htm As per your specific question, that doesn't sound right. Indeed it is a WORSE thing to do. You want to keep the stuffing at room temperature so that it can heat up to a higher temperature when cooking, so it's safer. However, chilling the stuffing would help let it firm up and stick together a bit and thus make stuffing easier - but it is definitely not the safer thing to do. This is why I'm weary of culinary school - even chefs might not know exactly WHY they do what they do when they cook, and you could "learn" things that simply aren't true (but with cooking you can still be great at it even if you don't understand every detail) - they've probably even told you to add a pinch of salt when whipping egg whites/meringue. Thu Oct 18 16:20:29 -0700 2007 3047802 129811 peanuttree 2 3049556 Could you please explain why adding salt to whipped egg whites are bad? I mean, I never do it but I've seen so many recipes (especially for pavlovas) to add salt and "whip to saliney peaks" Thanks. Fri Oct 19 09:31:15 -0700 2007 3047857 58855 digkv 3 3052247 it's not that it's bad - it's just that chefs and a lot of people think helps puff up the egg whites, when it doesn't - Sat Oct 20 10:17:41 -0700 2007 3049556 129811 peanuttree 4 3056967 It does contribute to the flavor of things, however. You need a little salt with your sweet. It's a background thing. Mon Oct 22 13:38:20 -0700 2007 3052247 11225 rabaja 2 3052296 In a similar 'huh?' vein, has anyone heard of frozen turkeys already stuffed that are cooked straight from the freezer? According to those in Canada on another board, they are delicious. Sat Oct 20 10:48:50 -0700 2007 3047857 11104 dolores 2 3052427 peanut tree, thanks for the good eats link. i like the transcript feature. Sat Oct 20 12:33:38 -0700 2007 3047857 105717 alkapal 1 3048217 The only reason I can imagine stuffing needing to be kept cold is if it was its own contamination risk - if it had raw meat in it, for example. Otherwise I would agree with peanuttree - that you would probably want your stuffing as close to room temp as possible. You should definitely ask these questions in class... you're a student, you're there to learn. You're not there because you already know everything! Thu Oct 18 18:43:26 -0700 2007 3047802 72401 jnstarla 1 3049473 If the chicken breasts were not going to be cooked immediately after being stuffed, yes the stuffing should be chilled. Remember the danger area for bacteria to multiply exponentially is about 40 to 140 degrees. If the stuffing is warm and inserted into the chicken breasts, the heat from the stuffing will warm the immediately surrounding meat into the danger zone, and any bacterial growth will also have the happy warm environment of the stuffing to multiply away. Further, putting the stuffed breasts into the fridge won't solve the problem, since the interior where the problem is growing is insulated and shielded by the chicken meat. This stuffed chicken breast problem is a very different bird than the issues involved with roasting a huge turkey. But even those techniques for warming stuffing before roasting the bird (so it will reach a safe temp of about 160 before the rest of the turkey is overcooked and dried out) always warn that the bird should be stuffed immediately before being roasted. For similar safety precautions, even a chilled stuffing should not be placed in the bird for any substantial length of time before cooking, to avoid cross-contamination. Fri Oct 19 09:07:18 -0700 2007 3047802 10855 nosh 1 3051447 I read the chilling stuffing article in the latest issue of Gourmet Magazine, not in class. Also, I should have phrased myself better. The stuffing wasn't actually "stuffed" into a whole chicken, it was chicken breasts with stuffing rolled and secured with a toothpick. Fri Oct 19 19:19:23 -0700 2007 3047802 106169 linz_e_moore 1 3051464 From a health prospective I would imagine hot stuffing coming into contact with raw meat would warm it and increase the liklihood of bacteria growth. Fri Oct 19 19:27:42 -0700 2007 3047802 20921 Tay 2 3052121 exactly - I assume the student was being taught to work in a commercial setting. One would not want to take warm stuffing and proceed to stuff 200 breasts. By the time you're done the first has been out too long. If you are cooking three and poppibng into the oven - its just not an issue. Commercially stuffing never goes into the bird - at home I do with room temp stuffing and a calibrated thermo!! P.S You should get what you paid for, ask your chef - it was a valid question Sat Oct 20 08:58:21 -0700 2007 3051464 78681 coastie 1 3052026 jfood normally follows the safety rule that the innermost part of the thing being cooked has to pass into the safe zone. Stuffed turkey for example. jfood would never want the stuffing cold when he puts it into the bird (no meats in the stuffing) since it would take that much longer to bring the stuffing to the appropriate temp. And the end result will be waaaay overcooked meat. stuffed pork and chicken cutlets/chops same thing. do not understand the gotta be cold advice though. seems counterintuitive. Sat Oct 20 08:02:41 -0700 2007 3047802 11290 jfood 1 3052315 Warm stuffing would provide a perfect medium for the rapid multiplication of any bacteria present. Sat Oct 20 11:02:46 -0700 2007 3047802 36661 Sam Fujisaka 1 3052406 What does your instructor say about it? Sat Oct 20 12:19:44 -0700 2007 3047802 10059 ChinoWayne 1 3052457 My guess is that the instruction says to chill the stuffing so that the chilled chicken breasts and stuffing are at the same temperature -- and so that they are done at the same time. But another reason to chill the stuffing is so it congeals a bit and more easily forms an solid, compact oval (without losing bread crumbs) that the chic breast can wrap around. In this case, I don't believe it has anything to do with food poisoning, or cross-contamination or keeping large quantities of food unrefrigerated during prep. In the case of a Thanksgiving turkey, those would all be considerations. A chicken breast wrapped around stuffing is relatively small, and its structure is rather open so the hot oven air can penetrate. So I think the chilling is for doneness at the same time and easy assembly. Sat Oct 20 12:51:48 -0700 2007 3047802 18222 maria lorraine 2 3052681 I've been working in a kitchen for TOO long - its definitly about bacteria grwoth. If it were about being done at the same time you would raise the temperature of the stuffing so it cooked more quickly as heat radiates in from the outside cooking the outside first. At home its just not an issue if you are putting in the oven rt away and cooking to proper internal temperature. Ir would be a problem if you prepped them and then chilled them allowing the internal temp to be too high for too long - the chicken flesh would act as a great insulater. THen later if not days later the product might be cooked. If it were not cooked to proper internal temp it would be a definite place for growth to occur. your point about chilling the stuffing for ease of work is a good one- some stuffings I work with I must form warm and allow to cool because they are so fragile. Then they are something I can get the breast around. Sat Oct 20 14:59:03 -0700 2007 3052457 78681 coastie 2 3052709 maria lorraine "In this case, I don't believe it has anything to do with food poisoning, or cross-contamination or keeping large quantities of food unrefrigerated during prep" Please, please, please tell me you're not a prep cook at a restaurant! What Sam Fugisaka wrote in his posting, above, is correct "Warm stuffing would provide a perfect medium for the rapid multiplication of any bacteria present" Sat Oct 20 15:14:03 -0700 2007 3052457 20921 Tay 2 3053087 Easy now. I indicated the stuffing would be refrigerated. I also took into consideration how long the batch of the stuffing would stay in the food danger zone -- between 41 and 140 degrees Fahrenheit -- and the size of the batch. If the batch is small, and made and used immediately before the stuffed breasts enter the oven, then the amount of time in the bacterial danger zone is quite short. No refrigeration required but refrigeration definitely aids assembly. On the other hand, if the batch is large, the mass must be broken down into smaller quantities and chilled. Each small batch is brought out as needed during assembly, and then the prepped sheet pan of chicken breasts goes back into the frig until just before firing. Again, the amount of time in the food danger zone is quite short, but the stuffing must be refrigerated. By no means was I advocating warm stuffing. Coastie, Tay and Pollo, I agree with you and wish I had been clearer. In my post above, I incorrectly assumed the batch would be a small one (kind of a silly assumption). Whether a small or large batch, the stuffing (and chicken) would spend a short time in the food danger zone before hitting the oven. Sat Oct 20 18:58:28 -0700 2007 3052457 18222 maria lorraine 3 3053257 Sorry for the remarks....but, having been working in the food industry I can tell you from experience that food safety rules in order to be effective have to be designed with the "KISS" rule in mind....as soon as you put in "exemptions" to the rules or ask people to "think/use common sense" you are asking for trouble. Personnaly, based on my experience in thermal processing the whole idea of "warming up stuffing before use" is a lot of nonsense....made a nice program but is impractical and unnecessary... Sat Oct 20 20:49:06 -0700 2007 3053087 19117 Pollo 3 3076384 I agree with you ml/ I have done large birds for years. I do not allow the bird with the stuffing to sit out at all. I prep and cook immediately using high heat at first, then lower the temperature. I think that cleaning the bird with extra care, then salting and I do mean a good rub down with a coarser salt in every cavity and the exterior too, is the best way to protect against the bacteria growth. Can you imagine the handling of the bird before we see it? I am least worried about stuffing. Mon Oct 29 09:47:08 -0700 2007 3053087 50431 chef chicklet 2 3077630 I might stuff a bird for FAMILY consumption as I will have control of the bird from preparation to consumption. I would NEVER stuff a bird for COMMERCIAL purposes as there are too many things that can go wrong as 10-15 people might have access to the process. Mon Oct 29 14:27:36 -0700 2007 3052457 12471 jlawrence01 3 3077730 Can you explain what you mean? Mon Oct 29 14:54:48 -0700 2007 3077630 19117 Pollo 3 3077972 Can you comment as to why not for COMMERCIAL purposes? Mon Oct 29 16:10:48 -0700 2007 3077630 19117 Pollo 1 3075813 Okay, I may be wrong on my rules of thumb here and may get jumped all over for this. Stuffing something into something else while it is warm is fine if it goes directly into/onto the heat. In fact, it can be beneficial since it will be warming from the inside as well. Chilling the stuffing first is if you aren't cooking right away. You don't make your stuffing, stuff the bird and then put it in the fridge until tomorrow morning. You keep both in the fridge apart from each other. I would then get the stuffing at least up to room temperature before stuffing because you don't want to have it in contact with bird juice and then the stuffing not get up to temperature. A few ways around this is to not stuff your bird. I usually make the stuffing (dressing) in a casserole. Another I've seen is to stick a metal knife into the stuffing inside the bird. The theory being the knife will carry heat into the middle of the stuffing. DT Mon Oct 29 06:46:05 -0700 2007 3047802 11291 Davwud 2 3075970 The whole idea of warming up stuffing from fridge temperature (~35F) to room temperature (~70F) is a non-factor when it comes to cooking the whole bird. You need a good thermometer and you need to use it properly....that is place it in the coldest/slowest heating part of the bird (~center/stuffing) and watch the temperature.... Mon Oct 29 07:47:06 -0700 2007 3075813 19117 Pollo 3 3075988 But you'd end up over cooking the bird. DT Mon Oct 29 07:56:06 -0700 2007 3075970 11291 Davwud 4 3077961 Only if you don't pay attention or do not know your oven....you can always put a pan with water in the oven and increase the humidity which will improve the heat transfer and decrease drying out..... Mon Oct 29 16:09:34 -0700 2007 3075988 19117 Pollo 1 3076321 I have not heard this before that you must chill the stuffing, I must live on the edge. I do stuff chicken, meats, and turkey. I have not ever had a problem, but the one thing I do is that I make the stuffing, stuff the whatever and cook it right away. If I were to make stuffing ahead, If I stuff a chicken or roast it for that matter, I do clean the inside extremely well, then salt the dickens out of it with a salt run down. I think that salt helps with any problems with bacteria. Least I was told that by my Dad...I believed him. Mon Oct 29 09:32:01 -0700 2007 3047802 50431 chef chicklet 2 3077275 My parents told me that too. It sort makes sense but at the same time, it's completely illogical but I still do it anyways: more out of habit if anything. Mon Oct 29 13:04:59 -0700 2007 3076321 58855 digkv 3 3077942 Illogical sorry? But in what way? I was under the impression that salt kills bacteria? Existing bacteria and a salty environment discourages new bacteria growth? Mon Oct 29 16:02:18 -0700 2007 3077275 50431 chef chicklet 4 3077959 Just rubbing salt on the surfaces will not do much in terms of "bugs"....it will draw out some moisture which will tend to "wash out" some of the "bugs" but in reality that will not change the potencial hazards since the infectious dose for say Listeria or Salmonella is v. small.... Mon Oct 29 16:08:10 -0700 2007 3077942 19117 Pollo 4 3078045 Salt does kill bacteria but only in concentrated solutions. You would sort of have to "cure" or completely saturate the poultry in salt in order for the salt to actually have bacteria killing effects. Mon Oct 29 16:39:06 -0700 2007 3077942 58855 digkv 5 3078135 Which would make it un-edible so it's not an option.... Mon Oct 29 17:09:18 -0700 2007 3078045 19117 Pollo 6 3078280 well, it may be inedible to us but I saw on tv once where in Thailand or somewhere, some of the natives just had pieces of pork in jars of salt which they would "preserve" for weeks and serve it with ice cubes: that may be safe to eat but in my opinion, it seems totally inedible; yet, fish sauce is nothing but rotting fish and salt and that's some good stuff. Mon Oct 29 18:04:06 -0700 2007 3078135 58855 digkv 7 3078296 But how much fish sauce can you eat at once versus turkey? Mon Oct 29 18:11:41 -0700 2007 3078280 19117 Pollo 8 3078347 Haha yea, and I'm sure this hypothetical salted turkey must really smell awful. I also wonder, how safe is a brine? It's pretty concentrated while it probably won't kill bacteria I'm wondering if it's safe to eat a turkey that been brined outside of the fridge. Mon Oct 29 18:35:12 -0700 2007 3078296 58855 digkv 4 3078187 But you're talking about the surfaces of the bird that are going to be exposed to heated air in just a few minutes. Killing 'em with salt before you kill 'em with heat is, well, overkill. The nasties that worry me aren't the ones on the skin or in the cavity; they're the ones that are deep in the muscle tissue. Fortunately, 140 degrees for ten minutes will spell the end of whatever pathogens might be in there. So as long as you're not eating your poultry medium-rare, you shouldn't have any problems. Stuffing is an issue; it's cooked before it goes into the bird, and won't necessarily be unpalateable if it hits the plate at 139. So it's possible to have a fully-cooked bird stuffed with cornbread, apples, and salmonella. Not good. In these circumstances, anything that sanitizes the cavity would be helpful. Salt? Sure. Or maybe kerosene. Or a blowtorch. Or some combination thereof (how's that for an image?). Better yet, just make very, very sure that the bird and the stuffing are fully cooked. Mon Oct 29 17:23:47 -0700 2007 3077942 58743 alanbarnes 5 3078209 Or keep it simple and stick the thermometer in the internal cavity of the bird where the stuffing is and make sure it gets past 165F during cooking....remember the KISS rule..... Mon Oct 29 17:36:36 -0700 2007 3078187 19117 Pollo 6 3078451 Yep. That's the only way to be sure that it's fully cooked. Mon Oct 29 19:13:45 -0700 2007 3078209 58743 alanbarnes 7 3096897 always always, use the probe. This is the only true way to ensure you've reached temperature. And use a good one, this is one place its not a good idea to get cheap. They aren't that expensive, but I have a couple in my drawer that are joke. Mon Nov 05 11:39:13 -0800 2007 3078451 50431 chef chicklet 8 3097027 jfood agrees 100% on buying a better than grocery store probe. He cooked some chicken to "190" three weeks ago and when he served it to his family it was, at best, 140. Every cheap probe went into the garbage that night. He bought a new digital fast read and it has proven fantastic over the last three weeks. Mon Nov 05 12:10:43 -0800 2007 3096897 11290 jfood 9 3097050 Thermos should always be calibrated, they get knocked off all the time. USe boiling water as ur guide. the cheap kind your talking about ie nondigital have a "nut" near rthe top that allow you to change temp to true read Mon Nov 05 12:14:59 -0800 2007 3097027 78681 coastie 1 3093129 If it's for home cooking, chilling the stuffing is probably not related to food poisoning. Chicken breasts are relatively small and the common food poisoning organisms that affect chicken are destroyed by cooking, so chilling the stuffing wouldn't make any difference unless the stuffed breasts were going to be kept for a while prior to cooking. If they ARE going to be kept for a while, chilling the stuffing (the meat should already be chilled) prior to assembly and re-chilling would be good practice since warm stuffing contacting the meat would allow rapid multiplication of bacteria until the stuffed breasts are chilled. If the stuffed breasts are cooked immediately, once they're in the oven, whether or not preparing them with warm stuffing caused more organisms to multiply in the short period of time they were in contact with the raw meat would be immaterial, since they'd all be killed by the heat of cooking. The cautions against cooking stuffed whole birds are generally due to cooks who don't ensure the internal temperature gets high enough to kill bacteria that may have multiplied to dangerous levels during the long cooking process. In a commercial situation, though, there is no advantage in cooking the stuffing within the bird (or roasting a bird whole, for that matter) unless it's intended to be carved tableside - it's harder to cook safely, and there may not be enough of it. Sat Nov 03 21:44:12 -0700 2007 3047802 69044 hsk