Pizzaiolo: Beating a dead horse

I swore after the first time, never to return. So, after some arm twisting by friends, I decided to give it another try. With out going in to great detail, I just have to say that I am baffled at how a restaurant can operate with such inhospitable service. I make no "expert" claims, but I worked in restaurants. For a long time.
The "bartender" at Pizz. has got to be the rudest bartender working in any local restaurant. Her skill at ignoring just about everyone seated at her bar, and the snotty "you really are bothering me" attitude is amazing. She was a major downer on my first visit and we nearly walked out before we got a table on this one because she is just.....
The host is up against great challenges at Pizz, the lack of space, the lack of a place to really greet guests; but really isn't the point of his job to make guests feel welcomed? Thankfully on this visit we had a really great waiter. Proffesional, friendly and honest with his thoughts on the food. He steered us to some good choices.
All things being subjective, I just do not think that the food at Pizz is worth being subjected to the struggle to enter, get a table and be seated. Struggle should not be part of the dining out experience. The pasta was forgettable. The condiment on the pasta was truly lovely but not earth shattering. The pizzas on this visit were bland. Desperatley under seasoned and the crust, while crispy lacks any real flavor or texture. The pork meatballs were really yummy, but you could easily make them at home so why bother. Nothing else rates a mention. And even though the "bartender" said that the wine we ordered "tastes like dirt" we love it. Frequently buy it for 65% less at Berkeley Bowl.
Food is only one component of dining out. The "entire package" makes for a great meal and Pizzaiolo does not deliver.

[zin1953]

Never had a problem at Pizzaiolo with the food.
Never had a problem at Pizzaiolo with the wine list.
Never had a problem at Pizzaiolo with the space itself.
Never had a problem at Pizzaiolo with the hostess.
Never had a problem at Pizzaiolo with the wait staff.
Never had a problem at Pizzaiolo with the bartender.
Never had a problem at Pizzaiolo with getting a table (except when the first opened).
Never had a problem at Pizzaiolo, period.

[Melanie Wong]

So, you're saying you like it? (g, d & r)

[Robert Lauriston]

Pizzaiolo had serious problems at the front of the house when they opened. First they didn't have anyone handling the door, then they had a succession of people who weren't very good at it. But they got that together within a few months.

The only problem I've ever had with the food was an inedible salad of whole Little Gems that were full of sand.

[Bookmark]

Robert and Morton,

Have never been to Pizzaiolo.

Am interested. Will try as so as I'm in the area and not late for a something as usual.

So I take it the rude/bad employees have been replaced in the year since the org post.

You both seem to be 'regulars' at Pizz. Could you have rec'd better treatment as such compared to some of those first-timers who had bad exp w/ the bartender and others?

Just wondering.

[Robert Lauriston]

From day one, I've had good and friendly service once we got to the table, and it has always looked like tables around us have had, too. The bartenders are not usually so friendly and have sometimes been pretty curt. I wouldn't eat at the bar.

[Oakland Barb]

I guess I'll chime in, as everyone else already has.
There is a woman named Journey who tends bar frequently. She couldn't be nicer or more accommodating- one of those reasons I like to sit at the bar in Pizzaiolo.
She also makes a mean cocktail and excellent suggestions about the menu. Invaluable.

[chemchef]

While my husband and I enjoyed our first (and only) visit to Pizzaiolo, I agree that its not all that its cracked up to be. Thankfully, according to you, we did not drink, so that wasn't an issue. However, we ordered enough food to make up for it. My husband got the lamb with ceci ceci's which he thought was just "ok". I had the spicy penne with cauliflower, which I thought was the best part of the meal. We ordered the sausage with rapini and red onion pizza to share. I liked the pizza, but thought that it was a little dry (probably from the small amount of cheese they used) and the crust had little flavor, nor was it crispy as everyone here says. My husband didn't really care for it at all.

Aside from my pasta, the real highlight of the evening was my dessert of profiteroles filled with ice cream. They were heavenly!

Pizzaiolo was recommended to us for our anniversary dinner which is when we went. I guess I was under the impression, based on that rec, that it was a little more upscale. However, I have to say that I was a little disappointed upon arrival, as it is little more than a glorified pizza parlor. Having said that, I think that there prices are not horrible, but are maybe a little on the high side.

I agree with jd that a great restaurant experience is a package deal, and I have to say that while Pizzaiolo's food is good, its not excellent. Also, there's some inconsistency with the atmosphere... Is it a pizza joint, or an upscale restaurant that serves pizza? Our waiter was very personable and honest about giving recommendations, however, as others have said, the service is very "leisurely", which is unexpected at a casual pizza restaurant. I think meshing these two aspects a little better would make for a better experience as people would more easily have their expectations met.

I like the place, and would like to give them my repeat business providing they can pull it together.

[lexdevil]

FYI: You are replying to a year old post that was resuscitated in order to give a positive review while commenting on the expected price for a dinner for two.

[jrhsfcm]

Um, does that mean that someone isn't allowed to continue commenting on a thread (or only if giving a "positive review?")? If people have an issue with continued posting to old threads, well, then people shouldn't revive old ones in the first place. Chemchef was simply giving another account.

Thanks for the post, chemchef!

[chemchef]

Thanks!

[lexdevil]

I certainly didn't mean that. I just found it odd/interesting that the post by chemchef appears to respond to the year old post by the OP (hence the comment about fortunately not having ordered wine), rather than the recent post by psb (that made no mention of wine or surly bartenders). It was confusing to me when chemchef wrote, "I agree that its not all that its cracked up to be," when the recent poster (psb) seemed to have a great time. It just made the conversation confusing to me. I was simply seeking clarity.

[Robert Lauriston]

Actually it was psb who bumped the topic.

I don't think Pizzaiolo's changed a whole lot, the older posts seem current. Main changes are that they now take reservations and they've got a back patio.

[Morton the Mousse]

Fewer reports on spotty service and long waits in the past year. The service has improved markedly, in part because they fired a couple of really lousy servers, and in part because they hired a host so that the manager doesn't have to do double duty any more. The reservations policy and back patio have improved wait times.

The food is as good as ever, and dessert has improved significantly since they hired a new pastry chef.

[Ruth Lafler]

I don't think it's correct to characterize Pizzaiolo as a "glorified pizza parlor" -- it's a restaurant that serves pizza as part of a full range of Italian dishes, like many other mid-to-upscale Italian restaurants in the Bay Area.

I'm sorry that you were disappointed and your anniversary meal was not what you expected, but it's not the restaurant's fault that your expectations were faulty.

[chemchef]

I'm just not sure that I'd call their limited menu a "full range" of Italian dishes, Ruth.

My expectations were faulty as a result of people recommending Pizzaiolo to me for an anniversary dinner. Its hardly what I'd call romantic. The atmosphere is loud and casual (even on a Tuesday night). My intent with my post is for others to get a better impression of what its like so that others are not disappointed as well. I did enjoy the food and I will go back, but next time I will know what to expect.

[Robert Lauriston]

Much as I love Pizzaiolo, it's not at all my idea of a place for a romantic dinner for two.

More the kind of place for a festive birthday party with a bunch of friends.

[JasmineG]

I would never recommend it for a fancy dinner, and I think a lot of posts here have been pretty clear that it's a very casual and pretty noisy place (and that the pasta is by far the weakest choice there).

[Ruth Lafler]

In addition to pizza, Pizzaiolo serves antipasti, pastas, "secundi," "cortoni" and dessert, and has a full bar. What's missing that would make it a "full range" and that would make it a restaurant rather than a "glorified pizza parlor"?

I wouldn't say that "small" is the same as "limited" and that having a small number of dishes means a restaurant isn't a real restaurant -- lots of restaurants in the Bay Area choose to concentrate on a small number of dishes that change seasonally (or even daily) rather than the kitchen sink approach. I've been to many restaurants that have a much smaller menu than Pizzaiolo.

That said, I couldn't agree more that Pizzaiolo is not a romantic restaurant suitable for celebrating an anniversary, and I'm truly sorry that you were led to believe so and were disappointed.

[Robert Lauriston]

The current sample menu has eight appetizers and eight pizzas, but only two pastas and two entrees, and all four pastas and entrees include red meat or poultry.

Terminology aside, that's a significant difference between Pizzaiolo and other top Italian places such as Oliveto and Incanto.

[Ruth Lafler]

First, there's always more on the real menu than on the sample menu, and second, when did I ever say Pizzaiolo was in the same category as Oliveto or Incanto?

[Robert Lauriston]

The sample menu is a real menu from a particular date. The current one is from Wednesday.

I'm not commenting on your opinion, just expressing my own. To my taste, Pizzaiolo, Oliveto, and Incanto make the best rustic Italian food in the area.

Incanto typically has five pastas and six entrees, always including some vegetarian and fish dishes. Olvieto has an even wider selection. That factors into which of the three places I might pick depending on a particular mood or who I was going with.

Dopo's menu is also eccentrically limited: no entrees.

[jrhsfcm]

Ruth, you just gave the implication that Pizzaiolo is like other mid-to-upscale Italian restaurants. There are a number of higher end Italian restaurants in the Bay Area, many of which have higher end surroundings and fantastic service. Clearly there have been MANY negative posts about service issues (which I DON'T expect from a higher end restaurant) and she found her surroundings "pizza parlor"-ish. I've actually NOT been to Pizzaiolo; however, with all the posts I've read I've formed my own preconceived notions of the place - all the comparisons give me the impression it's A16-like. If that's the case, while not everyone can shell out $200/person on an anniversary dinner, I could see something A-16-ish fitting the bill. I'm frankly really curious to visit Pizzaiolo... just so I can see how all these Chowhounder reports measure up.

Though, more likely than not I won't bother actually posting a review... since seemingly any time I do that I'm wasting my time. Maybe I should post more "I'm coming from out of town, please tell me where to eat" posts.

[Ruth Lafler]

Please to post your reports! We have to drown out those blasted "in SF for XXX days where do I eat posts"!

I was actually thinking of A16 (and La Ciccia) when I said mid-to-upscale places that serve pizza. I didn't mean to imply the Pizzaiolo is "upscale" only that serving pizza doesn't make a restaurant a pizza parlor!

[jrhsfcm]

That post of mine was a bit snarky, I do realize. I'm still relatively new to CH, and I've posted a number of long posts about restaurants I've visited and they've gone completely ignored. If I'm going to comment about individual dishes and aspects of a restaurant, well, it's going to get quite long (I'm verbose... I can't help it). Otherwise I'm left with "Oh, that was nice/bad." If they're of any use to people, by all means I'll write them. But it really seems like people spend more time replying to posts with "For information about that, refer to X post" comments... and I just wasted my time. lol

I'm really pretty curious about Pizzaiolo now, as I said. Granted there's a lot of subjectivity when comparing restaurants: I love A16, and while I love to have those good ol' "standards," I like trying new places. Even if it does end up being a "pizza parlor" in my mind, my memories of such places might not justify $50/head price tags... but I remember always having a good time! :)

[Morton the Mousse]

Keep in mind that just because nobody comments on a post doesn't mean that nobody reads it. Requests for information tend to get the most replies, because they're asking for feedback. Someone may read your report, enjoy it, and learn valuable information, but if they don't have anything insightful to add, or any questions to ask, they wont leave a reply. Some of the best reports I've read on Chowhound wind up with zero comments.

[adrienne156]

Yeah, I second Morton. You guys make work (for me atleast) a million times more interesting! :o)

[chemchef]

Them serving pizza actually had very little to do with my "pizza parlor" comment. The fact that it is casual with bench-style tables and loud is what warranted that comment.

[Ruth Lafler]

Bench-style tables? In the back room, maybe. The front has regular tables. It is loud, but then, so are lots of places, even upscale ones (I actually had laryngitis after dinner at Perbacco).

I'm not trying to dispute your experience, only that I don't think that anyone who has read much about Pizzaiolo on chowhound would have gotten the impression it was the type of place you were obviously expecting, and thus I think the harshness of your characterization is a bit unwarranted.

ETA: When I think of a loudness in terms of a pizza parlor I think of kids running around and frat boys with pitchers of beer. That's definitely not Pizzaiolo. Again, you're entitled to your opinion, but I don't think the restaurant should be faulted because other people gave you a mistaken impression of it.

[chemchef]

It is warranted in my opinion, which I am entitled to. Pizzaiolo was recommended to us by Morton in a previous request for a last minute, moderately priced anniversary dinner (you can find the topic listed if you search under my name). That was the first thing that gave me the impression that it was an upscale, romantic restaurant. Second, Looking at the menu and prices online was a little deceiving b/c it gives the impression of a "nicer" atmosphere. Those are just my perceptions. The point here is to give readers all perspectives, and I am just giving mine.

BTW, we sat in the front room. I can't remember exactly what the table/seats were like, but I remember it reminding me of the pizza parlors my family and I used to frequent when I was a kid.

I'm not trying to be harsh. I enjoyed the food. I'm just saying that its not an upscale restaurant, in my opinion, as I feel I was lead to believe. Please don't criticize me for my opinion.

[Robert Lauriston]

It's definitely a very casual place, especially given the high quality of the food and the relatively high prices.

Here's that topic with your previous report:

http://www.chowhound.com/topics/374155

[chemchef]

Agreed. Thanks for the confirmation.

Nevertheless, the food is good, and I'll definitely go back, just not for an anniversary dinner.

[rworange]

I thought your review on Cyrus was wonderful.
http://www.chowhound.com/topics/390370

Really as others have said, sometimes people don't have anything to add so there's no feedback. Sometimes, like with a place like Cyrus because it is out of the SF area, there are fewer people to comment. A good many of my reports go with zero comments. Sometimes weeks or months later someone comments.

However, no comments doesn't mean unread and I figure it might help someone who is curious about a place. And as others said, the more reports about restaurants, the more it drowns out xxx perfect days in SF and encourages others to post.

My own preference is for people to post their own topics rather than tacking on to older ones, especially long ones. Usually the updated info is at the end and people are reading a lot of old stuff before getting to the current info. However, as long as people add info that's good however they like to do it.

[Robert Lauriston]

Also, someone may read a report, be inspired to eat at the place, and post their own report in respose to one of the other 5 or 25 or 200 topics where the place has been discussed.

[Morton the Mousse]

Aw, no antipasti? If I were to rank Pizzaiolo's menu from favorite section to least favorite (not including dessert), it would be:

1) Antipasti
2) Controni (best value)
3) Secondi
4) Pizza
5) Pasta

If I ever ordered a dinner of pizza and pasta, I would probably be disappointed as well. I usually just order a selection of the antipasti and contorni, unless the secondi really calls out to me.

[Robert Lauriston]

I mostly agree, except I almost always get the pizza.

But pizza's my favorite food, and Pizzaiolo's is as good as it gets.

Generally I prefer whatever's coming out of the wood oven to the other dishes.

[chemchef]

Well, I'll have to listen to you more often, Morton!

I think I was going to get a salad or somthing that night, but oh yeah, I just remembered that we decided to get the fritto misto, which was good. Also, my husband got some sort of special prix fixe menu and I think we were able to substitute that appetizer for the salad that it was supposed to come with (b/c my hubby wasn't that thrilled about it). So, after the prix fixe menu, my pasta, the pizza (we couldn't really go w/o at least trying the pizza), and the two desserts, we didn't have much room (in our stomachs or our budget, since we are college and grad students!) for anything else.

[jrhsfcm]

Interestingly enough, people usually just rave about the pizza.

[susancinsf]

At Pizzaiolo? (all the posts are confusing me). Not me! I really don't like pizza, and I really, really like Pizzaiolo. As for the poster who said that their meatballs could be just as easily made as home: well, I am not sure I can. If you can, please post the recipe on home cooking!

I had a lot of pre-conceived notions about Pizzaiolo also, and was prepared to dislike it. Once I went, my only regret was that I hadn't tried it sooner.

[510jeff]

I went to Pizz last night. I really wanted to order all the veg contorni but I relented and ordered the Phipps ranch beans and the rapini both were outstanding. We also ordered a margarita pie and got a little dish of freshly grated parmesan, it was delish, but maybe a bit boring, a gl of the nero d'avola which was great and the meal was $31 w/o tip.

About service:
We sat at the communal table and listened while another patron told the waitress he usually gets bad service in his previous 4 visits (a persistent lil bugger or into S&M or the food is outstanding?) but with his and our server Emma it was great. Personally we've never had really bad service. we thought Emma was great too. We sat at the communal table - maybe we wouldn't do that again or in the back room- you're either looking in the glare of the flourescent lighted kitch each time the door opens or seated by the bathroom door, though I think it's quieter there as there aren't any music speakers. However air was blowing down on us unpleasantly until we switched spots at the table (then caught the kitch door/light issue.) oh well the beans & rapini were 10's and the pizza a solid 8 (and $10 so not $).

Can someone comment whether it would have been acceptable to order all contorni? If yes we're going back in a flash!

[Robert Lauriston]

The contorni are the real bargains of the menu. We always order as many as appeal. Worst case we have leftovers.

[Melanie Wong]

"Thanks for the rec. We ended up going to Pizzaiolo... it was great. "

So you've changed your opinion?

[chemchef]

No, I haven't changed my opinion. And, in fact the hubby and I went to Pizzaiolo last night for dinner. My opinions stands... great food, slightly overpriced considering the atmosphere, but well done and worth paying for.

We ordered the Pizza Margherita, the meatballs, and the rapini. These items are clearly what this restaurant is all about, they were fantastic. Yet, the bill came to ~$50, which I think is kind of a lot for a pizza dinner (no drinks or apps).

I also don't know why I was catching so much slack over my comment about the seating. I took a closer look at it last night... really, just wooden tables and chairs. Ok, they're not benches, but they might as well be b/c they are really not very comfortable. And the waitress were running around with see through t-shirts or tank tops with their black bras showing, which to me, doesn't scream upscale dining.

[Melanie Wong]

"My husband got the lamb with ceci ceci's which he thought was just "ok". I had the spicy penne with cauliflower, which I thought was the best part of the meal. We ordered the sausage with rapini and red onion pizza to share. I liked the pizza, but thought that it was a little dry (probably from the small amount of cheese they used) and the crust had little flavor, nor was it crispy as everyone here says. My husband didn't really care for it at all.

Aside from my pasta, the real highlight of the evening was my dessert of profiteroles filled with ice cream. They were heavenly!"

Thanks, was confused because your description of the food from your first visit didn't sound satisfactory. Or at least not for your husband, so I couldn't understand where "great" could apply.

[chemchef]

I apologize if I came across as if we didn't like it the first time. I may have sounded that way b/c, as I have stated before, we were both a little disappointed that the atmosphere was not what we were expecting.

We both agreed that the pizza was good, my husband just decided he didn't care for rapini on his pizza, and I would've preferred more cheese since there was no sauce to give it moisture. My husband has only eaten lamb ~2-3 times in the 7 years we've been together, but he says he grew up eating it, so its always a special occasion when he can have it. While I know that lamb is typically served with mint (in some way shape or form), he said that he didn't care for the mint sauce. He's also not a big fan of garbanzo beans and probably thought that they'd be more of a garnish and not a major component of the dish as they were. I think that these are the reasons that he was disappointed in the lamb dish, although admittedly the lamb was cooked to perfection (it was braised and melted in your mouth). Like I said, I loved the penne with cauliflower and the dessert, so really we were just disappointed with a few things that first time, and since the entrees are a bit pricey, that adds to the disappointment. However, if you read about my experience last night, you'll see that we were more than satisfied. Unfortunately, we went under less than ideal circumstances as we were on a quest for fried chicken which we almost never have, and I suggested that we try Bakesale Betty's since I've heard so much about them (and in fact, the last time we were at Pizzaiolo, the waiter recommended BB's fried chicken sandwich). But when we got to BB's they told us that it's only a lunch item. So, I mentioned that Pizzaiolo usually serves their fried chicken on Friday's, so we walked over only to find that the chicken wasn't on the menu last night. Nevertheless, we stayed (couldn't help it after talking about it all day on CH yesterday) and decided to order some of the items that people have been saying are their specialty. We were not disappointed!

[jrhsfcm]

If you're going to start quoting...

"I thought it would be a little more 'fancy' (we got dressed up), but nevertheless, the food was good. We both just felt a bit over-dressed, since most other were in jeans and t-shirts (atmosphere was more like a very upscale pizza parlor."

I do believe she has said, time and again, that the food was very good; however, Pizzaiolo was recommended as "someplace nice" for an anniversary dinner. Doesn't sound like she's changing her tune at all, only stating an opinion about the nature of the restaurant. Most of the pro-Pizzaiolo comments on this board WOULD give someone the impression that the restaurant is fairly upscale. I don't see any harm in someone commenting to the contrary.

[chemchef]

Thanks. I seem to be the underdog here, which is fine. I just don't appreciate my opinion being attacked. I shouldn't have to justify it time and time again, its my opinion, that's all. You guys don't need to protect your precious Pizzaiolo, by the looks and sound of it, its not in any danger, its always packed. So, just let others express their opinions and give it a rest. Let's put this dead horse in its grave and enjoy Pizzaiolo for what it is.

[psb]

you were unhappy because of inaccurate representations ...
"a romantic upscale restaurant" ... and now take umbrage at
people suggesting calling it a "glorfied pizza parlor" also
misrepresents the place?

yeah, i suppose there are different consequences of the two misrepresentations:
overselling: you go and are disappointed
underselling: you dont go and "suffer" a deadweight loss

BUT:
--my understanding is the people who oversold it to you were not CH people
--somewhere in all this flogging, a reasonably accurate portrait emerges

as i said in my posting where i disinterred this horse for a re-beating:
"i think it is important to clarify this most likely a +$50 restaurant,
not a $30 place" ... so my point wasnt to rave about the place but to
try and represent the place more accurately.

i suppose if this was not in the land of chez panisse, i would have also
mentioned in spite of the high price, it's not an overstaffed pretentious
operation set in a ritz-cartlon type marmoreal setting ... but i assumed
here people were quite used to "casual" +$50 restaurants [CP, delfina
etc]. BTW, I lived in the east bay for quite some time, so until recently
I would have found it hard to imagine a restaurant worthy of running up a
$75 tab could be located at 51st and telegraph. isnt that 300 feet from where
a p0rn theather used to be? ... i thought that was one of the standard
"landmarks" of the area. ok tnx.

[chemchef]

FYI: the people who, as you say, "oversold" it to me were indeed CH people.

[Robert Lauriston]

Only Morton the Mousse recommended it, for a moderately priced anniversary meal, on short (three days) notice, for a Monday night.

http://www.chowhound.com/topics/374155

I'm surprised I didn't reply noting the casual atmosphere. The site was acting up that week, maybe it didn't show up as new.

[Morton the Mousse]

Talk about beating a dead horse...

Last minute res, Monday night, moderately priced, good ingredient sourcing, you weren't going to do much better than Pizzaiolo.

Nice is a subjective term. I really enjoy the atmosphere at Pizzaiolo, and Mrs. Mousse and I have celebrated many special occasions there. If I realized that chemchef was looking for something intimate or romantic, I probably wouldn't have made the same recommendation.

[rworange]

So you're the rat responsible, eh Morton :-) . You know, I never got that Disney reference in your handle before. This conversation is just forcing me to go to Pizzaiolo finaly ... and I know what to order ... and not.

But ... uh ... I'll probably append it to lintygmom's excellent, recent post.
http://www.chowhound.com/topics/389589

[chemchef]

My bad. I thought "anniversary" implied romantic. Anyway, no harm done. As of Friday night, my hubby and I have found the perfect items to order at P. We got seated within 5-8 min (on a Friday night!) and had an excellent meal.

[Glencora]

Yeah, my mom worked at the library that was "kitty-corner to the pussycat theater." Not much to eat in the area other than a hotdog at Kaspers. (Caspers?)

[lexdevil]

And Soul Brothers Kitchen, next door to the Library. And Genova Deli in its original building just down the street. And, if you head back in time a bit further, stunningly cheap food and drinks at Bertola's, just a bit further than that.

[Glencora]

Now that you mention them, I remember all three of those places. I was under ten and mostly interested in Hooper's candies.

[lexdevil]

The sadly closed one is Kasper's. The still open one past Claremont is Casper's, as are the bagged dogs sold at Costco.

[Melanie Wong]

Sorry, as I noted above the food description didn't seem to match "great" or "very good". I'm not attacking just asking for clarity. I've not been to the restaurant so have no dog in this race.

[chemchef]

I hope that my lengthy post above is enough clarification. If that's all you wanted, you should've just asked for clarification! I'm happy to clarify, I just usually try to avoid posting such long replies b/c I don't feel like people want to read that much. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm a totall foodie, and have a culinary degree, so I'm always happy to expand on my experiences!

i just went to pizzaiolo for dinner last night with three other girls. we had such a fantastic time. we ordered the winter citrus salad that has avocado and a kumquat vin. totally well balanced with the creamy avocado, slightly anisey fennel, and the deep sweet blood and navel oranges. the ricotta and prosciutto dish was perfect, the ricatta needed a bit more salt, but i just added that myself. the wine was outrageous and the pizzas were fantatic. we know charlie a bit and requested a calamri pizza and were so excited when he sent it out to us. that with a the squid pasta, creamy phipps ranch beans, and the nettle pizza did us in. we thoroughly enjoyed the service, the atmosphere (which was hopping) and the food more than enough. i will be going back for sure ver soon.

it was a saturday night, and a bit cold out, but we waited, had a glass of wine and just enjoyed. by the way, once summer comes, waiting for a table will be easy-peasy as the warm oakland weather will be welcome compared to the city

I have to agree with this post although we've only been to Pizzaiolo once. We expected the wait -- we've always seen a line at the door -- but we did not expect to be treated with such coldness by our waiter once we were seated. He was utterly unhelpful and humorless. If the food had been spectacular, we'd chalk it up to one guy or a bad night, but given our experience with pretty bland appetizers, pasta and pizza, and then serious attitude from our server, it would take some arm twisting for me, too, to head back into the wilds of Pizzaiolo.

I like the fact they don't take reservations, I think it keeps the restaurant more of a neighborhood place, which it should be. It's gotten so much buzz, and I think it would be a shame if it and other Temescal joints turned into an extension of Rockridge. It's nice to have the change of scenery just a few blocks away.

I agree. If the wait's too long, we just walk over to Lanesplitter.

[Waterboy]

That's a very different pizza. Didn't find my takeout from the Albany takeout only location much diff than Redboy and others. Maybe the sit down joints are better.

I've been to Pizzaiolo a number of times since I live in the neighborhood. Except for the one time I went right as they opened, it's always been a huge hassle to get seated. The thing I hate most about it is that, as soon as you walk in the front door, you are standing just a few feet away from people eating dinner. Oftimes the hostess is nowhere to be found, so you are just left standing there. I always feel like I should start up a conversation with the poor folks sitting right there trying to eat. I've had the pizze three times, once was very good, the other two were not so memorable. On New Year's Eve, my girlfriend and I went there and it was a MESS. We had reservations, but still waited almost 45 minutes. I ordered the pork meatballs braised in milk, and out came 4 little meatballs in a puddle of milk. And it was a pricey entree, too. Over 20 bucks if I remember correctly. Overall, I don't understand the hype.

I was there on NYE as well. The pork meatballs were not over 20 bucks, they were under 15. You are confusing them with an entree.

You could be right. I just remember being astounded at the price compared to the portion and also the plating was not good. Did you have the meatballs? Did you think they were way overpriced?

I've had the meatballs, which were delicious, and like almost everything I've had at Pizzaiolo I thought the price was reasonable for the quality.

I haven't tried their pasta, probably never will unless someday they run out of pizza.

I think that it is unfair to look at a single dish at any restaurant and say that it is overpriced. Many starter dishes are portioned as a starter and therefore not as good a "value" as an entree. For example, the salads at Pizz are on the small side and pricey, but the entrees are quite generous and reasonable and the sides are an incredible value. What matters to me is how all of this adds up on the final tab. When I dine at Pizz I usually spend $30-$40/pp including drinks, tax and tip and I go home stuffed and drunk. I do not know of another restaurant in the East Bay where I can get such a good meal for such a reasonable price.

I've been to Pizzaoilo twice...once when they first opened and had a terrible experience. I wrote it off to being a new restaurant working out the kinks. The second time I went (about a month ago) I had a similarly bad experience.
It just makes me wonder...if the pizza is better at both Dopo and Oliveto, the wait is almost always too long, the service is consistently poor (and rude), and the other items on the menu are not impressive in the least, why bother going again? The meatballs were just okay. The squid, which I had high hopes for, was cooked for too long and came out rubbery and nearly inedible. Squid needs to be cooked for either a very short amount of time or for a very long time. Anything in between and you end up chewing the same piece for five minutes. And the pasta was a joke. I, for one, will not be returning.

[psb]

I finally made it to Pizzaoilo tonight. I thought the food was quite good and I'd
solidly recommend it. I didnt have a massive wait and thought the service was
mostly ok ... BUT, we got there before 6pm, so it was pre-rush. [by the time we
were heading out, 7:15ish, there was definitely a lot of people hovering around
the entrance area].

I thought it was a little odd that my associate (who arrived separately, before
I did) was seated by herself in in the table at the far corner of the back room ...
it felt kinda weird, like you'ld been sent to exile or something (by herself, I
mean there was nobody else back there and the front room was less than half
full). Anway I joined her there and eventually it was driving me nuts being
there and I asked "could we be moved to a less cold table" [it was also like
58deg next to the back door] when the waitress came by ... this was handled
reasonably and no complaintes there, except thinking it was an strange choice
in the first place.

I was happy with everything I tried, and even better, there were plenty of
things I didnt get to try, from drinks, to starters, to pizzas and desserts
that I was excitied to go back for ... it's terrible when you go to a splurgy
restaurant, but for some reason nothing catches your fancy on the
daily menu ... I cannot see that happening at this place.

The weakest item was the coppa with pickled shallots ... i thought the
shallots were a little strong and temporarily dulled one's tastebuds.
Dunno why some people knocked the pasta ... I thought the calamari
with spaghetti was better than the pizza. Anybody know what runny
cheese was on the manila clam pizza?

Very interesting collection of drinks. Was delighted to see APEROL (who else
around here packs that stuff?). My questions about some of the drinks were
patiently answered ... went with the vin d'orange ... very nice, although would
have been even better on a hot day sitting on the Mediterranean coast.

Very good affogato. assume it was BLUE BOTTLE. Why shouldnt it be good!

Anyway, not to nitpick but what really motivated me to respond in this
thread was the comment about getting out of there for $30-$40. ok maybe
$40, but i dont see how you an get out of there without scrimping [e.g. splitting
a pizza] for $30 ... which is $24 food cost + tax/tip [and that is leaving a
minimal tip]. I was pretty restrained in ordering and my non-drinking,
small sized friend just had a starter and pasta and it was $80 for the
two of us. I think for a serious but non splurge meal there, I think it's really
a +$50/person restaurant ... [$9starter + $15main, + $9drink + $9dessert > $50
with tax/tip]. And if I was there with serious eaters, add in another side, and
another drink ... so we're approaching the $80 range. Unless you see it as a
neighborhood place to drop in for "a beer and pizza", I dont think it's fair to call
it a $30 place ... I grade harder for $50-$75 restaurants ... While I feel it makes
the grade, I do think people should know what they are getting into
checkbook-wise. (apologies if they have raised their prices since the posting
was made ... or if you were referring to lunch service). ok tnx.

[Robert Lauriston]

We always spend over $40 a head, sometimes well over.

Prices are about the same as a year ago, and they don't do lunch. The menu's online so the cost shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, so long as they know that the pizzas are smallish.

http://pizzaiolo.us/

[psb]

Perhaps my memory is foggy, but I felt the pizzas here [Pizzaiolo]
are a better deal than at Nizza la Bella. As pizza for one, I thought it
was pretty fair sized.

[since this is a beating the dead horse thread, in re: the comment below]
>glorified pizza parlor.
>
come on, you can think of the place however you want, but is that
a useful "public" description at all?
a "pizza parlour" that makes it own vin d'orange and charcouterie and
will pour you an Oban?

yes, some places have "housemade sausage" but this is a far
cry from that. yes, you can say "when evaluating the experience
you have to compare it to a16, nizza la bella, not tomassos" and
it's reasonable to say the atmosphere is some what casual and
bustling for a place where you can easily drop $75, but it's some
world class stretching and spinning to call this a pizza joint.

yes, there are "upscale steakhouses" which are even more expensive,
but people know the range runs from sizzler to mortons. "pizza
parlor" and "pizza joint" dont go up to $75, even in the bay area or nyc.

[JasmineG]

I really really hate sitting at one of the tables in that back room. It really is freezing cold back there, and you're usually in the middle of someone else's party, which is a little irritating.

[Ruth Lafler]

I find these comments about Pizzaiolo being expensive interesting. When I had dinner there last month I thought it was quite reasonable for the quality of the food: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/376859

I don't know of many places that are using anywhere near the quality of ingredients Pizzaiolo does where the prices are lower. Of course if you're going to run up the bill with $9 cocktails, you can spend a lot of money, but cocktails run up the bill anywhere.

[psb]

Well who knows which comment about the price you were
replying to but mine was an objective one: $30 -> no way at
Pizzaiolo. Not so much of a subjective one about whether it
is worth it or not ... that's too much of a personal matter.

What I used to think of as the $50 restaurant ... but is now more
like the $80 restuarant ... is one of the hardest categories to
excel in, I think. I'm forced to ask "is the twice as good as a $30-$40
comptent comfort food place?" Is i three times as good as a good
"ethnic" place in the $25 range? Is it 10x as good as a good hamburger
or hot pastrami sandwich? Of late Pizzaiolo and Kokari do well
in this category, but usually I'm disappointed. [btw, unlike some CHers
i dont ever go to expensive places by myself, even when traveling on
expense account/per diem, so the company and social dimension are
a big factor for me ... not just food, food, food. So no matter how good Piz
is, i'd never come here and drop $50 on dinner with myself, nor would
i suggest coming here on a "dinner of obligation" with people i didnt
like ... i'd try to wind up somewhere cheaper, because to me it would be
a waste of money, rather than the "at least the food will be good" view
some other doubtlessly have]

>but cocktails run up the bill anywhere.
>
try the Gold Cane.

[Ruth Lafler]

If you read my post, I say that a friend and I had dinner for $50 -- we shared an app, a pasta a pizza and a dessert. That was plenty of food for us. So I would categorically say that you can do Pizzaiolo for $30/person if you don't pig out.

[psb]

yes, the sceario where you dont even get your own items for $25/person
is essentially anticipated at:
http://www.chowhound.com/topics/44861...
clearly i am responing to that Mousse fellow's comment about having a
full meal and leaving "stuffed and drunk".

"i'd like to take my gf and her parents out to dinner in oak/berkeley
and spend about a $100 ... should i go to pizzaoilo" ... hah, yeah, right.

i suppose Pizzaolio has odd property that there are people
there splitting a fancy pizza and fancy beer as well as people having
a multicourse italian meal. it would be like putting delfina pizza and
delfina propre under the same roof. or only getting a dinner burger
and a coke at at cafe rouge etc. in fact partly the reason i picked up
the tab there was my small, non-gluttonous dining companion's tab
was probably "only" $25, and it would have been ridicuous to split
the bill and it's too close of a friend to have done exact accounting.
besides, she got the tab at kokkari.

but to add some substance to this post, i think the Pizzaoilio pizzas are
a better deal than 211 pizza, nizza la bella, and definitely delfina,
which i thought was wildly over priced for such a small, spare offering
[although some people said they've retooled since i analyzed their
pizza].

[Robert Lauriston]

$8.50-10 for appetizers, $15 for pastas, and $21 for entrees is relatively expensive for the East Bay, though not for the kind of places that use top-quality ingredients. Prices are comparable to Cesar's.

[Ruth Lafler]

And Cesar is just a glorified bar ;-) I happened to eat at both last month, and thought, for the food at least, that Pizzaiolo is a much better value.

[Robert Lauriston]

Pizzaiolo's food is generally better, but Cesar's open earlier, later, and Sunday.

[JasmineG]

Also, the drinks at Cesar are better than the ones at Pizzaiolo.

[Robert Lauriston]

Cesar always has some interesting wines by the glass, but Pizzaiolo's even better on that score.

[JasmineG]

Right, the wine list at Pizzaiolo is great, but the cocktails (what I meant by drinks, I should have clarified) are miles better at Cesar.

[Robert Lauriston]

Cesar is sort of equal parts bar and restaurant, and the Oakland branch has a huge bar.

Pizzaiolo is a restaurant and isn't set up to handle a bar crowd. To be true to their Italian style they shouldn't really offer cocktails at all, only aperitifs and digestivi.

[psb]

>I think that it is unfair to look at a single dish at any restaurant and
>say that it is overpriced.
>
i assume you will agree it is perfectly reasonable to say some particlar
dish is overpriced but that shoudnt be be confused with "the restaurant is
overpriced". it's certainly reasonable to say "the food is a good value
but the wine markup is high" etc.
it would also be reasonable to say "no you are wrong ... that dish as
more expensive ingridients than the similarly named but inferior dish
at the place your are comparing prices to" or "that is more labor intensive
than you think" [i dunno how that factors into pricing], or "it is a new dish
and they havent figured out the right price for it". take for example creme
brulees ... they come in quite a range of sizes ... some i dont think were such
a good deal. i had some dessert at that ALBONA restaurant tht was a 2sq in
ripoff. i think many of the lunch items at gregoire are a decent deal, but i
have a lot of trouble paying $4 for "french fries" ... yes, they deliver a lot of
"utility" but fundamentally, i think they are "extracting rents" with those things ...
especially considering they are borderline addiction goods for some.

I'm glad someone else brought this up, because our group of 4 was treated really rudely by the female (brunette) bartender too. She seriously needs an attitude check and/or reprimanding from the mgnt. It was so bad we debated walking out after we'd ordered our first glasses of wine. Went there late, so it was winding down and there wasn't a wait, in fact, half the restaurant was empty, so her rude behavior was really puzzling to us. Anyway, we were seated and the gruff busser came and said flatly "tap or bottled?" Nothing more, no greeting whatsoever. So, it was obviously not off to a good start. The waiter came around and was far more professional and courteous than the previous two employees, but I must say both the pork meatballs (all 4 of them!) were terribly underwhelming, and the sausage/rapini pizza he said was "the best choice" did nothing for us either. Really stingy on the portions, only one tiny piece of sausage per slice, and as thin as it was, $15 seems a bit high for something so small and bland. The meatballs could've been better had they been seared before braising. Again, $14 for 4 of them just seems too high for something appetizer-sized. The salads too were really small. We won't be going back any time soon, unfortunately. Too bad because the room's nice and they did have some good wines, but neither the food nor the service were up to our standards.
ps don't think the owner was there that night...this was two fridays ago, I believe.

Wow, do they only have one bartender? I ate at Pizzaiolo about 3 weeks ago and as a singleton, I sat right by the cash register at the bar. The bartender was in fact my waitress since she handles both duties.

Having said that, I got to observe her in action for the duration of my meal and I never found her to be rude or inhospitable. Busy, yes. Every seat at the bar was filled with a diner (not a drinker). Drinkers were standing in line for tables. She served them plus the orders brought in by the other waitstaff. Never once was she flustered although she was clearly getting snowed by the onslaught of orders. When I finished my burrata appetizer, she thoughtfully offered to bring me some bread to sop up the rest of the incredible olive oil that covered the burrata. (Anyone know what their olive oil is? I want more!) Perhaps you caught her on an off day? I certainly found the service friendly, if a bit slow.

Btw, I had the meatball pizza (on the bartender's recommendation) and loved it. Yes, I probably could make meatballs like that. I doubt I could put them together and end up with a pizza like that.

As for the struggle, well, sometimes it makes the whole meal that much more special. For me, the triumph of succeeding in landing a French Laundry reservation (for example) does not detract from the meal, but makes me appreciate that I was fortunate enough to get through.

Too each his or her own. Vive la difference.

i know charlie and i've worked a few times at the pizza oven with him. he uses primus novello sicilian olive oil. you can get it at monterey market or berkeley bowl.

Peter,
did you eat at the French Laundry? Any tips on how to get through on the phones for a table?

I can see how the waits at Pizz could turn someone off. I always just get there before opening so I don't have to wait for more than 10 or 15 minutes and I don't go when it's raining. Though I understand that not everyone likes to eat at 5:30. I do appreciate that they don't take reservations because I can show up on a whim rather than booking a table weeks in advance. I think the best solution would be to open a wine bar a couple of doors down with intercom communications.

Glad to hear that the service has improved since your last visit, several other people have commented on an improvement in service. Sorry to hear that you didn't love the food. I agree that the pasta is forgettable and try to steer folks on this board away from it. I think the pizza is much stronger during tomato season. I want to have dinner at your place if you can make meatballs that good :). The salads, entrees and sides are consistenly my favorite dishes on the menu. I can't help but wonder if Charlie (the head chef) was cookin the night you went as they have been short staffed lately and he's been wearing different hats. When he's not behind the oven the food is good, but rarely stellar.

After about twenty visits Pizzaiolo remains my favorite "non-splurge" restaurant in the Easy Bay. Not sure if I would love it so much if I was subjected to hour waits every time.

I didn't notice any change in the pizzas after tomato season. Wouldn't expect any given that they didn't use fresh tomatoes on any of the pizzas I've had.

If you've never tried one of Charlie's cherry tomato, sausage and red onion pies you are really missing out.

[Waterboy]

Can't please everyone - evidently jd's not thrilled with the place.

I can appreciate that, haveing been there - the pizza didn't impress me, but I had no problem at all with the service, that being friendly, including the bartender, who I recall as a guy.

Long wait on a Saturday evening for so-so take out - didn't intend to go back, but you've intrigued me - don't see how cherry tomato/sausage/red onion becomes a great pizza. I'll try one.

I have never been to the place, so forgive my biases. I know there are alot of people on this board whose opinions I respect who think highly of the food and overall experience. I think however, that there is a lemming like tendancy to patronize southside spots like Pizziaolo and Kirala is spite of rude service, interminable waits etc, because other people are doing the same thing. Come on, how good does pizza(sushi) taste? So good that its worth waiting an hour in the rain? When you can get food that is (almost) as good at Olivetto cafe, Dopo etc.
I could be wrong, but I hate waiting.

I eat at Pizzaiolo because I love the pizza and always have a great time there.

If you hate waiting, make a reservation at Cera Una Volta in Alameda. Dopo's worse than Pizzaiolo.

>>> If you hate waiting, make a reservation at ...

To be fair, the original poster didn't have a problem with waiting.
The problem was waiting with a hostile bartender.

When you say "on this visit" do you mean they were underseasoned compared with your previous visit?

The pizza's the main reason I go there, and I've found them very consistent. Never had anything underseasoned, to the contrary the chef's not afraid of salt.