448461 Sun Oct 07 03:32:17 -0700 2007 46 29 Not About Food 0 3011761 I wasnt sure where to post this but thought I'd start out here. Having just returned home from three weeks touring in the US, I've noticed a difference in the restaurant experience between the two countries (leaving aside the issue of cost). I'm talking here about mid-highish end restaurants (say £50 or $100 a head and up a little ways). And it's not service. It's not ingredients. And it's not cooking style. Spend $100 and you are served exactly what you order. Spend £50 and you're going to start being served "free" extras. The higher end the restaurant, the more "freebies". So you might expect canapes with your apperitif; an amuse bouche before your starter, a pre-dessert and petits-four with the coffee. Since coming back, I've thought about this and not sure which I prefer. The Brit/European approach certainly brings an element of surprise to the meal which can be nice. But it can detract from the dishes actually ordered. And, of course, it isn't "free". Any thoughts on the relative experiences? John Sun Oct 07 03:32:17 -0700 2007 78808 Brit on a Trip 1 3012143 Perhaps American restaurants put so much on the plate at times that they feel the 'extras' are superfluous. Some upscale places will serve cookies/biscuits with coffee. Many years ago, a lovely place called The Tower Suite (it was on the high, high floor of the Times/Life Building) always served an intermezzo between the starter and the main course. Back in the 60's, we found that so, so intriguing and unusual. I remember the first time we went to Paris years ago and were served delicious biscuits with our coffee......but that was after our huge dessert! I learned my lesson and came to know that dessert, although wonderful, can sometimes be passed by in certain places. Sun Oct 07 08:52:29 -0700 2007 3011761 11939 zuriga1 1 3012154 I am in Manchester right now. The first evening, we ate late -- having been delayed at Heathrow. We went to an Italian restaurant called Felicini -- one of several in England. We were tired and ordered modestly: garden salad and lasagne with layered with bolognaise sauce, bechemal and a light tomato sauce my husband, and Caesar salad and wild mushroom risotto for me. We did not get a piece of bread or even a breadstick. Talk about no extras! Everything was quite tasty and the portions were reasonable (not teeny, but not excessive either). However, there was nothing stellar -- and the presentation was nothing. Neither a parmesan crisp planted vertically in the risotto nor lasagne served in the pan in which it was cooked makes anything approaching presentation. The bill came to 32.70, for two glasses of wine, two entrees and two salads. This would have been better if it had been in dollars, but translated from the strong pound to the lame dollar, it came to about $65. That's not super high-end, but it's not cheap-o either. Last night four of us went to Choice, multiply honored and very good. The Lakes District bread board w/ a both butter and olive/oil cost extra. The appetizers are in the 4 to 5-pound range, the entrees 13 to 20 pounds and the desserts 5 to 6 pounds. Plus wine. Again, translated into dollars, this is not a budget eatery. Even the most modest US restaurant puts rolls or bread w/ butter or olive oil on the table. A little amuse is not uncommon for higher-end establishments. In Boulder, Frasca starts diners w/ a small glass of appetite-enhanceing wine -- on the house -- and the Flagstaff House does not only an amuse but but also sends out a tiered dish of complimentary petits fours and chocolates. The nothing-extra rip-offs are the high-end steakhouses, where you pay extra for everything: salad, potato, veggies, etc Sun Oct 07 09:00:54 -0700 2007 3011761 54833 ClaireWalter 2 3022642 I would not cross the door of Felicini's. It used to be a single restaurant in Didsbury and was pretty good (not least as it was only 5 minutes drive or so from home). I think it was bought out by new owners a year or so back. It has now expanded to 4 or 5 branches around Manchester. The space is now cramped; food quality is indifferent, as is service and prices have increased. As you might have gathered, I don't like it there any more! I don't know Choice. "Trendy & expensive" part of town - but I see their "Smart Choice" menu offers three courses for £15.95 Monday - Thursday which I'd regard pretty much as budget eating. I see also that the a la carte menu is very heavy on premium quality local produce, including a main course of Cheshire Smokehouse smoked haddock (see my comment about this on the other current Manchester thread). I wonder if they'll let oldies like me in the place : - ) Wed Oct 10 13:57:29 -0700 2007 3012154 78808 Brit on a Trip 3 3026956 You're right Felicini's was owned by a couple called Delfina and Mark Prosser who now run a golf club somewhere near Bolton They were forced out by their landlord and the new owners took the name and goodwill (without paying anything for it!) It's now just a bland chain restaurant I wonder how they ended up there of all places? Thu Oct 11 17:42:42 -0700 2007 3022642 132961 kphilbin 2 3027666 I have to say that comparing prices in this way, with the exchange rate as it is, doesn't really work. I know that the £32.70 cost you 65 dollars, but it isn't expensive on our terms, and a couple of years ago, this would have meant something more like 48 dollars. Things have changed radically price-wise for US visitors to the UK, but it's still the same for us. Fri Oct 12 03:01:39 -0700 2007 3012154 12573 Theresa 3 3028584 That's really interesting. Could you please explain more about your purchasing price parity. Because I was at an international airport one day and there at a Lacoste store, shirts were "on sale" for $100 or 50 pounds. I remember seeing a bunch of young English teenagers walk in and saying "oh, it's only 50 quid," as they grabbed many, many shirts. I wasn't sure if this would be cheap for a Britisher or something because I would never pay $100 for a shirt, or even $50. (Sorry if this isn't even remotely regarding food.) Fri Oct 12 09:50:36 -0700 2007 3027666 58855 digkv 4 3028892 Without wishing to second-guess Theresa, a discussion based on exchange rate comparisons can be pretty meaningless, unless you're a foreigner visiting another country. So, in the example above, neither Theresa nor I would think the £32.70 was an unreasonable price and it will have varied little in the couple of years for us Brits. However for, say, an American returning there after the couple of years (and thinking dollars not pounds), they're going to say "Wow, isnt it really expensive compared with a couple of years ago". Similarly, while we in the States we kept remarking how cheap things were compared to our last trip 3 years back. But I bet Americans don't think US prices have come down dramatically, do they? Maybe we should invent a sort of Chowhound "unit of currency" that allows us to compare prices across countries. Call it something pretty much universally understood and comparable - maybe a "McDonalds" - how many minutes does the average American/Brit/Hungarian/etc have to work to buy one. BTW, a Lacoste polo in the UK costs about £60; a "proper" shirt £80. And, no, I wouldnt buy one either. Not even at the dollar equivalent. Fri Oct 12 10:53:43 -0700 2007 3028584 78808 Brit on a Trip 5 3038341 Yes - that was exactly what I meant. Designer clothes are another issue altogether - as far as I know, other countries have always been much cheaper than here, regardless of exchange rates. A food related unit of currency for chowhound would be great - and a "big mac" is a good unit to start with. If I ever complain about the price of a starter in a fancy restaurant, my husband always uses the price of a big mac as a comparison - saying that the fine food in front of me, made of carefully sourced ingredients, by people with serious talent and love for food, is the same price as a couple of mass produced, tasteless products from McDs. Tue Oct 16 02:34:40 -0700 2007 3028892 12573 Theresa 2 3028630 ---Even the most modest US restaurant puts rolls or bread w/ butter or olive oil on the table.--- Not anymore. It seems some rip off places are now charging for bread. I also agree with you on the rip off of so called 'high end' steakhouses in charging for every last thing and overcharging for the meat to boot. Amazing what people will pay for when they go out to dine, isn't it? But yes, there are still the good restaurants that seek to give the patron an enjoyable dining experience without ripping them off. Fri Oct 12 10:00:46 -0700 2007 3012154 11104 dolores 3 3146511 Re "It seems some rip off places are now charging for bread." I'd love some examples. Wed Nov 21 15:17:49 -0800 2007 3028630 54833 ClaireWalter 1 3022053 As a Brit (OK a Londoner) who has lived in the US for about five years, the major difference between UK and US dining is the quantity of food. My comments relate to non-chain restaurants/eateries since when I eat out that's where I tend to dine... In the US, the focus appears to be to provide a lot of food for one's money. I don't care for unlimited refills of sodas (I live in the South) or rolls/tortillas/something to snack on as you decide on your order. In the UK, when dining out, I may order two courses occasionally but when I eat out in the US, I rarely order more than just an entree and then I leave with a doggy bag. In the US, for Chinese and Indian food, the rice is included in the price of the entree. This is not true in the UK. I prefer the British way in some respect. I'd like to be able to choose the carb that goes with my meal by way of paying for it as a separate item. Wed Oct 10 11:32:14 -0700 2007 3011761 80084 Chow Penguin 2 3024369 I always felt it was fine to take the free rice and order something else if that was my craving... fried rice always appealed to me more than plain, boiled white. Have you ever eaten at the Cheesecake Factory? Their portions are truly bordering on obscene. Thu Oct 11 06:34:09 -0700 2007 3022053 11939 zuriga1 3 3025758 This brings me to another US/UK dining difference. Back in the 1980s when I still lived in London, I had to queue (at least half an hour) to get into the Hard Rock Cafe in London. That was my first experience of having to queue to get into a restaurant. This was because the restaurant did not accept reservations. This is also true for the Cheesecake Factory (although I think they do accept "call ahead" type reservations). That's one reason I don't bother with Cheesecake Factory. The other reason is portion size. I'm told the quality of the food is high but come to think of it, their prices are too. I'd rather spend the money on a non-chain eatery where I can make a proper reservation. There's a Maggiano's Little Italy near me too. This is a chain restaurant too. Their fullsize pasta entrees are truly obscene. Even half portions are more than enough for one. Thu Oct 11 12:27:17 -0700 2007 3024369 80084 Chow Penguin 4 3025984 Ooooh! I used to wait tables at "The Cheese" in Chicago where the wait on a Saturday night used to go up to 3+ hours-- for meatloaf and burgers! Then pay premium for the privilege of a dinner that's too big to finish and too gross to take (the leftovers) with you to the movies!!! So wasteful! Although, one day we were visited by the company founder, who was nearly as wide around as he was tall. That's why the portions are so big; he likes a big portion and it's his restaurant, so there. As an American living in London, I can say that one thing I prefer about the UK system is that the diners ask for the cheque to be delivered at the end of the meal, instead of the pressure-inducing "Can I get you anything else? No? Well, I'll just leave this (the check) for you when you're ready," method of US restauranting. I like that it's up to me when I'm finished with dinner, not the waiter who's interested in turning the table. Thu Oct 11 13:22:11 -0700 2007 3025758 128592 sloepoke 5 3147875 I like getting the check that way. It doesn't affect how long I stay in a restaurant and it beats hunting down the waiter when you really want to leave. Thu Nov 22 10:53:49 -0800 2007 3025984 11002 thirtyeyes 4 3026245 My last job in the States was working at a large store that had a Cheesecake Factory in the same complex. It was easy to pick up a snack to take home or have an early dinner before the place filled up. I'm not quite sure why those restaurants are as popular as they are. The menu is huge, so I guess there's something for everyone. I miss that sort of place here in the suburbs of London. There doesn't seem to be much variety or imagination. Thu Oct 11 14:14:48 -0700 2007 3025758 11939 zuriga1 2 3026077 On this most recent trip, we tended to eat at more higher end places than we have in the past - perhaps the only (financial) penalty of having discovered Chowhound and, therefore, knowing where the better places were. As a fairly general statement, I didnt feel that dishes were over-portioned, with a couple of exceptions. I accept I have a healthy appetitie but in the past have usually been happy with just a main and, perhaps, a share of a dessert. This time, there were a number of places where portions were of much more European proportions and three courses were perfectly possible. Even my wife, who has a small appetite, usually managed to clear her plate. I did rather miss having an encounter with an all-you-can-eat US buffet which tend to be much bigger and better than over here. Greed will out. I don't drink alcohol these days and am now a great fan of free soda refills - we should import the concept. Thu Oct 11 13:39:40 -0700 2007 3022053 78808 Brit on a Trip 3 3026218 >am now a great fan of free soda refills - we should import the concept.< Yes, I really miss that nice luxury found in many U.S. restaurants. The price of soft drinks in the UK is just out of proportion with what the liquid actually is worth. John, I'm starting to see portions here in the UK much larger than they were years ago. I remember starving during my first trip here - about 1989. It was such a change from what we were used to (and portions in the U.S. weren't all that large back then). The larger portions is taking its toll. It's easy to see how obesity is becoming a problem. Thu Oct 11 14:09:57 -0700 2007 3026077 11939 zuriga1 4 3027634 June, it's a growing problem in the UK (apologies for awful pun). I went for lunch to a chinese buffet in my local town centre this week. I felt quite slender in comparision with many customers and, whilst I was very greedy (it's quite a good quality place for buffet- and only £5.50), I kept seeing very, very fat people walking past with plates piled very very high. Fri Oct 12 01:12:50 -0700 2007 3026218 78808 Brit on a Trip 5 3027640 I remember when going to buffets was a real waste of money for me. As a younger person, I never ate much and the famous American spreads were lost on me. Times have changed! People just don't realize they can't eat at 50 or 60 the way they did at 20 or 30. Metabolism changes. That said, I'm eager to try the Thai buffet I saw in Soho the other week! Fri Oct 12 01:19:47 -0700 2007 3027634 11939 zuriga1 5 3093976 I didn't know there was such a thing as a £5.50 buffet anywhere in Britain - no wonder it is popular! Sun Nov 04 11:39:54 -0800 2007 3027634 84119 lagatta 1 3031703 here's what i've noticed as an american living in london for the last 3.5 years: 1. You sometimes have to beg for tap water in the UK, and the first question posed by most servers is "Still or sparkling?" If you are successful in getting tap water, getting refills can take ages. 2. Napkins. And I suppose I refer mainly to take-aways when I say this. In the UK, you get one napkin at Pret. They give you the napkin. They put it in your bag. If you want extra napkins, you have to reach over the counter and grab some and they might look at you funny. The same goes for most chippies and other random take-aways...you'll get a plastic fork and knife, wrapped with a single lonely napkin. Related, I've dined at the homes of English friends, where there have been NO napkins...not even paper towels. Compare this to the "grab a stack of napkins" approach in the U.S. and the ever present rolls of Bounty. Interesting, I think! 3. Unlimited refills of soda. Nearly non-existent in London. (Nando's and Subway seem to be an exception.) I was somewhere in London today where they wanted £2 for a Diet Coke. One diet coke. If I wanted another, it was another £2. This is a rip-off, first of all. And second of all, there should be refills! 4. Paying the bill. Asking for separate checks in the US is still somewhat of a no-no. In the UK, it's very normal. (Maybe not separate checks, per se, but paying separately.) I really like this about the UK. Also related, I like how they charge my card in front of me. That's cool. 5. The "How is everything?" question. In the US, you're very likely to get this question after the food has arrived. In the UK, you'll only get this every so often. 6. Arugula/Rocket. It seems to be on every menu in London. More rare in the US. 7. White rice. I think someone mentioned this before, but I feel like at US Chinese takeaways, everything came with white rice. But in the UK, you have to ask for it specifically. 8. California wine. Take a look at your next wine menu. The US lists are full of CA wines. The UK lists sport the rare bottle. 9. SALADS. Dinner salads are not uncommon in the US. They're pretty uncommon in the UK. I'll stop there. Interestinging thread! Sat Oct 13 11:59:07 -0700 2007 3011761 51531 kristainlondon 2 3038349 On your points, kirstainlondon, which I find very interesting. Here in Westchester, NY, napkins aren't that generously offered. I agree with you that they shoud be. Ditto on refills of soda, I don't usually see free refills, and there might be many varying opinions on whether there should be. Completely agree on the water. As to salads, in the US? Good luck. With verrrrry few exceptions, salads are NOT given with a meal. Or, did you mean the presence of a salad on the menu for dinner, say with a meat or fish included? As to the OP, you're correct, the most recent obscenely priced restaurant where the tab for two came to $170. gave........nada. Zilch. Zip. Bupkus, in terms of add-ons. Not even one thin mint with the bill. I think it's quite nice that you get little surprises in the UK, but I don't think we'll ever see that here. Tue Oct 16 03:03:11 -0700 2007 3031703 11104 dolores 3 3094095 Maybe we live in different parts of the country or dine at different types of restaurants, but I find that a salad is fairly commonly included with a dinner entree at restaurants in the US. You know : "House or Caesar" It seems to be more common here than in Europe with their à la carte menus (admittedly I haven't been to the UK so I can't comment there.) It certainly isn't so rare as to warrant the quintupling of R's in the word "very". I'm talking about affordable restaurants here. Sun Nov 04 12:24:16 -0800 2007 3038349 106932 Agent Orange 4 3094100 Agreed - I find salads that "come with the meal" are v. common in the Midwest, PA and NC (my non-NY points of reference), but are less common, even rare, in urban areas such as NYC, DC and Miami. Sun Nov 04 12:26:58 -0800 2007 3094095 10985 MMRuth 2 3038354 I'm an American in England for 4.5 years now, and you've hit my main issues, particularly about water, "how is everything," and napkins!! I once actually dined at a friend's house where they only had two cloth napkins (there were four of us) and we actually had to share! Not that I think this is normal English behavior, but I had to mention it apropos of your English friends' home dining experience. Brits need to learn about napkins. One other thing re salads: True about their being uncommon in the UK. But have you ever tried to eat the little "salad" that comes on the side of a plate, like with a sandwich or a little meal? I've never had one that wasn't gritty. It seems they don't wash the leaves. Tue Oct 16 03:10:23 -0700 2007 3031703 14139 Kagey 3 3038443 "How is everything?" Of course, we don't keep asking. It is our custom to assume it's fine unless the customer (who has a mouth and brain in their head) tells us otherwise. Even asking the once seems a fairly recent invention. Napkins? I can't really comment about this as I've never been to dinner at a friend's home where there were no napkins. I wonder why folk wouldnt have them. John Tue Oct 16 05:21:43 -0700 2007 3038354 78808 Brit on a Trip 4 3039305 I should clarify: I don't need a server to keep asking "how is everything?". But quite often, I find the food is served and then the server vanishes, so that if I do need something, I have to get up and find someone. All I'm asking is for one "how is everything?", maybe five minutes or so after the food is served! Tue Oct 16 09:38:26 -0700 2007 3038443 14139 Kagey 5 3041644 Ah, yes. The Case of the Disappearing Server. A worldwide problem Tue Oct 16 23:47:17 -0700 2007 3039305 78808 Brit on a Trip 2 3093151 >> I've dined at the homes of English friends, where there have been NO napkins...not even paper towels. << WTH?! Can you explain this? I am dumbfounded. What did your friends do when they got goob on their mouth or fingers? Sat Nov 03 22:09:09 -0700 2007 3031703 99521 KenWritez 3 3113417 Yes, I know. It's odd. When it first happened (lunch with friends at someone's home and no napkins), I thought maybe it was an accident. I was the only American there. I was also the only one who asked for a napkin. Maybe Americans are messier eaters? The English (and Germans...I can't speak for the rest of Europe) keep their fork in their left hand and their knife in the right for the entire meal. They don't put their knives down and switch hands like Americans do. So that's one theory. But then an American friend of mine married a Brit and she has much more experience now with the no-napkin thing than I do...very rarely does she get one at a friend's home. And if she does, it's a single and lonely one. A limp one. So in answer to your question--they wipe their hands on their trousers...or their socks. (That is, cross legs. Surreptitously wipe fingers on socks while ankle is crossed over knee.) I've never confirmed this verbally. I've only watched it. :) Sat Nov 10 14:34:59 -0800 2007 3093151 51531 kristainlondon 4 3113499 You have some very strange Brit friends. Wipe our hands on our socks? How peculiar. John Sat Nov 10 15:16:10 -0800 2007 3113417 78808 Brit on a Trip 5 3145709 I've been to the UK a number of times, and have never witnessed this. Wed Nov 21 10:40:53 -0800 2007 3113499 91415 hungry_pangolin 2 3146525 Re #2 . A convention in Manchester last month is what took me to England. Some delegates were indignant that only small (by US standards) paper napkins were offered at a buffet breakfast -- and, I think, with box (bag) lunches as well. Now I know it's cultural. Wed Nov 21 15:25:57 -0800 2007 3031703 54833 ClaireWalter 3 3146825 I recall living at Passfield Hall (an LSE res) many years ago, and yes, I do recall the paper napkins being smaller than I had in Canada. But they were there, and no sharing. Wed Nov 21 17:53:47 -0800 2007 3146525 91415 hungry_pangolin 1 3031807 Depends on how you define "mid-highish" and free. In S.F., $100 p/person is on the high end. You can however get an excellent meal for half that and be very happy. In the U.S. I don't think it's the price but the service and expectation model. You can spend $100 at an expense account place and feel it's a high end feed trough and there are no expectations except it to be of good quality and presentable/safe within a corp/biz context. In the $100+ range, in SF, I've received comps like aperitif, amuse-bouche, olives, etc. but it's always been at destination places and it's hardly free when you consider everything...but it is a very nice gesture and good hospitality. Again, I think it's about expectations in the US more then price. Sat Oct 13 12:52:59 -0700 2007 3011761 27275 ML8000 1 3091587 jfood just returned from a week in London and everything is expensive at 2:1 exchange rate, in fact jfood was charged 2.20 at the airport for sterling on arrival, ouch. With this exchange rate everything will seem expensive to us coming across, but standing in line at Heathrow the English lady in front of jfood was bringing an extra suitcase to NY to shop all the bargains. jus a fact of macro-economics and exchange rate theory. can't do much except wish back to the days of 7-FF to the dollar. But to the topic. Jfood commented to a colleague that he did not understand why NYC does not have more Prets or EATS. Just seems a natural for the rush rush environment. Dinners - Americans have been brought up with freebies. Bread, take-away containers, anything to separate and be a differentiator. Did jfood care that one resto this week charged 1 for some bread and butter? Not really and jfood thinks given the time, effort and cost of making bread today he fully expects the US restos may pick up this theory in time. The funny part of this week was ordering non-flat water. Jfood did not know whether to call it fizzy, sparkling, club, every place had a different term. Seasoning - The major difference that jfood noticed was seasoning. He found the UK side less heavy-handed on the salting of entrees. Jfood usually does not season at the table in the US but found he needed to on every occassion in the UK. Serving size - Let's try to get apples and apples. Four dinners this week in the UK. And jfood could not find consistency in serving sizes. One was large, one medium, one small. In the US Jfood normally finds the same and is resto dependent (chains not included here). But the major event that jfood has noticed over thelast ten years in London is the qulity. It is onpar with other major cities now and when people state they are going to London and are fearful of eating, jfood is quick to correct. there are lots of good places now. Sat Nov 03 07:49:19 -0700 2007 3011761 11290 jfood 2 3093491 thanks jfood, as an expat Brit in the USA I do so hate Brit bashing regarding food. British food, not just in London, is certainly excellent in many restaurants and has been for a number of years now. Sun Nov 04 06:50:36 -0800 2007 3091587 22559 smartie 3 3093652 Four days in London this week. the bacon egg and cheese on a roll was better than any jfood has found in the US, 2-quid (thinks it's called Piccolo a block north of Piccadilly behind the Athenaeum and Park Lane). The simplest sandwich at a local deli was served on fresh bread had lovely chicken and veggies and was 2-pounds-80 (love the way it's priced). Dinners were great. Jfood was actually upset that he did not have bangers and mash this trip but will be visiting monthly so that meal's all set for the end of November. Will be trying several other restos in Mayfair & Shepherds Market (especially the Italian bistro two doors up from The Grapes) on the next go-round. Sun Nov 04 08:50:28 -0800 2007 3093491 11290 jfood 4 3093987 I'll be back in April-please post a report on the Shepherds Market restaurants that you visit. I missed that area last spring but it is on my list this time. Sun Nov 04 11:42:18 -0800 2007 3093652 109992 Hooda_Guest 4 3113420 I had the best bacon-egg-and-cheese on ciabatta last week at a "caf" on Whitecross Street close to Old Street. With a big mug of tea (something I do love about London), my bill was about £3. It was fantastic. Sat Nov 10 14:37:08 -0800 2007 3093652 51531 kristainlondon 5 3121383 When we visited London a couple years back, breakfast was the best meal of the day. We found a little caf next to the Tube station where all 4 of us ate for less than 20 pounds, the cost of one breakfast at our 4* hotel. Like every major city in the world, you have to investigate options and know where to eat. We made a major mistake having lunch at Harrad's, or Horrids as my kids called it. Found a great small Italian meal with salad, wine, and mains for 60 pounds, again a bargain for 4. Tue Nov 13 11:42:28 -0800 2007 3113420 15139 Diane in Bexley 3 3094883 I'm surprised that this myth is still around. Though I think a lot of the people perpetuating it are the dreaded "foodies," as opposed to people who actually like food. Sun Nov 04 18:40:30 -0800 2007 3093491 10681 piccola 4 3095087 agreed and it is also a topic for know it all travellers who went to England in 1959 for their one and only visit! Or have visited but only ate in their 3* hotel or at their second cousin's house in Wolverhampton. Sun Nov 04 20:07:36 -0800 2007 3094883 22559 smartie 5 3145765 Quite. People don't realise that traditional English food is really quite good, and tend to ignore the fact that the poor reputation of that cuisine is largely the result of 50 years of scarcity of quality products. From 1914 to 1955 there was successive rationing, depression, and more rationing. It really wasn't until the late 60s that there was beginning to be the sort of prosperity that would allow people to purchase quality ingredients and also to travel abroad. What cuisine wouldn't suffer from that sort of deprivation? Now, I think the myth can be safely laid to rest. If one wants to use the "celebrity chef index", the UK beats the USA when you take into account the relative sizes of populations. How can one condemn the food of a nation that has produced White, Henderson, Oliver, Lawson, Ramsay, Blumenthal, Dickson-Wright, David, etc.? Whatever you think of them individually, taken collectively they are evidence of a vivacious food culture. Wed Nov 21 10:56:28 -0800 2007 3095087 91415 hungry_pangolin 6 3147080 Yeah, it'd be like judging American food on the Jello/Campbell's cooking of the 50s... Wed Nov 21 20:39:48 -0800 2007 3145765 10681 piccola