445572 Thu Sep 27 15:17:47 -0700 2007 44 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 2983541 This is always something I've struggled with. When I suggest a "french" restaurant, and someone asks me, "what is french food" - what do I say? It's obviously easy with certain cuisines to generalize, like mexican, chinese, indian, italian - but how does one do so with French cuisine? Thu Sep 27 15:17:47 -0700 2007 77809 gemster 1 2983576 Sorry I'm not helpful with this reply but I'm equally stumped! I know many people define it as using a lot of "butter" and "cream" but I've never been able to get a handle on it. In other words, I've never found myself craving French food... Can't wait for the answers! Thu Sep 27 15:28:33 -0700 2007 2983541 112406 Chew on That 1 2983637 define or describe? Thu Sep 27 15:50:15 -0700 2007 2983541 12139 paulj 2 2985683 More describe. Like a 2-3 sentence description - almost a "dummies" version for someone who's not that knowledgeable about different cuisines... Fri Sep 28 10:08:18 -0700 2007 2983637 77809 gemster 1 2983653 French food is based on stocks, sauces, and technique--skinning, plucking, boning, trimming, cutting, interlarding, trussing, barding, larding, stuffing, scaling, blanching, braising, poaching, roasting, broiling. Post WWII French is lighter, with less butter and cream, and always dependent on what's fresh at the market. Fish, seafoods, beef, veal, lamb, mutton, pork, blood, the "nasty bits" and innards, and game--from boar to lark--are characteristic, as are pates, terrines, timbales, and complicated desserts. Matching food and wine optimizes enjoyment. Thu Sep 27 15:55:32 -0700 2007 2983541 36661 Sam Fujisaka 2 2984527 Nice description, Sam. I would add that the regional geographical differences that defined French food & cooking pre-WWII linger today. No specialty of Normandy or Brittany uses olive oil and the cooking of Provence is pretty limited in butter and beef consumption. Come autumn, I get a hankering for the traditional peasant soups and stews of the french countryside, so bring on the "nasty bits"! Nothing like a couple of chicken feet or some rich blood to enrich a simmering pot of something wonderful. Thu Sep 27 22:23:02 -0700 2007 2983653 15743 Sherri 3 2984563 Couldn't agree more. We have to get together, but only if you love the food but not necessarily the French. Gads, the richness of being when faced with simmering pots of such stuff--young wild boar blood to the gelatinous contribution of moose ears. Thu Sep 27 22:56:52 -0700 2007 2984527 36661 Sam Fujisaka 2 2984624 Sam, what you are referring to is Classical French Cuisine which is a categorized, regimented, codified, written down compendium of preparation and techniques. I cook and eat French food all the time, and I mostlyt use NO butter and cream, but Olive Oil, Garlic, Anchovies, Olives. Read Escoffier on French Cuisine, or the great masterwork "Mastering the Art of French Cooking" by Julia Child for the Classics. Go to france, or a good local Bistro in NY for the rest. Fri Sep 28 00:22:06 -0700 2007 2983653 10838 Fleur 3 2984646 Fleur, again sorry to have offended you. I did say that French food in the last 50 years is lighter than previously and that it had always relied on what is fresh that day in the market. My including the compendium of techniques and foods = codified? Just the opposite. Techniques that I've strived (but often woefully failed) to master. Butter and cream: we agree 100%, much less today. I learned to cook French and still feel it is the basic way of doing things. Come to my place for from sauces to boar's head to terrines to judge for yourself. I've eaten well in France, the last time only five days ago. And, I think, almost as much fun, where the French have been: Vietnam, Laos, Madagascar, Quebec, west Africa, and on and on. My only exception is that I spend my meals in NYC on other cuisines. Please, never again will I even lightly joke about the French. Fri Sep 28 00:53:22 -0700 2007 2984624 36661 Sam Fujisaka 4 2986849 You sound like a really great cook! I envy you being in France just five days ago. I live in NYC as well, and the choices of French restaurants from Classic elegant to simple Bistro is ever growing. Cocotte, le Petit Marche, Quercy, and many others are really excellent, and moderately priced. The growing influence of foreign ingredients in French cuisine, like Ginger, LemonGrass, everything Moroccan has injected some new vitality into Parisian restaurants. No offense taken, Sam. But the time for French bashing is over. They have a new and US friendly leader and government and have given up their anti-American bias. Fri Sep 28 14:49:59 -0700 2007 2984646 10838 Fleur 3 2984899 Fleur, it strikes me that your French food is just as classic as Sam's but it is the food of Provencal France. I don't know that French food is any more amenable to generalizations than Italian food. We probably think of French food as more unified than it really is because of the writing of Escoffier which is, as you say, categorized, regimented, codified, etc. Escoffier's French food is the food of chefs, not of the family cook. At home, regionality dominates. Provencal ingredients won't appear on a table in Alsace. Choucroutes garni will characteristically appear on tables in Alsace. And cream-apple-Calvados combinations will characteristically appear on tables in Normandy. And the list goes on. Fri Sep 28 06:29:43 -0700 2007 2984624 61567 Indy 67 1 2984619 French food is simply food from France. There is not just one generic "French food". France is a large country, with many geographic and culinary regions. The cuisine of each region is very different from others, with emphasis on local specialties. The food of Normandy and Brittany uses butter and cream, while the cuisines of Provence and the Cote d'Azur use Olive Oil. I would add that the Cuisine of Italy is the same; the Italian food of Naples is very different from the Italian food of Bologna or Milano. Italian-American food is almost a cuisine unto itself...delicious, wonderful, based on traditional Italian cooking, but never found in Italy. The food of China is also very different according to region. Hunan food is nothing like Cantonese or Szechuan food. There are many wonderful books available on the regional cuisines of france and Italy. Fri Sep 28 00:15:02 -0700 2007 2983541 10838 Fleur 2 2984847 I was about to reply "French food is cooked in France", but you beat me to it! Fri Sep 28 06:05:35 -0700 2007 2984619 15217 gini 3 2985432 So French food can't be cooked outside of France? And traditional Algerian specialties cooked in Marseille are French cuisine? While many have correctly pointed the provincialism that exists within France... with the zealous use of local ingredients and so forth... there are also many elements that unify the vast majority of French cuisine and distinguish it from other cuisines. For example, 99% of Sam's description of French cuisine could easily describe Mexican or Indian cuisine yet there are obvious difference between these World Class cuisines. My small contribution would be to point out the various facets of French cuisine.... > Classical French with its reliance on the sacred basic sauces (Rouxs etc.,), savory pastries, rich but uniform & largely white & whimsical presentations. > Regional Cuisines with their fanatical, provincialist obsessions on local ingredients & traditional techniques. The food is more straightforward with less fancy sauces & techniques... but more color & natural variability. Some examples would be the Bisques, Bouillabaise, Country Stews, Pickled Pork Feet, the regional cheeses, breads & fruits & Vin Ordinaire. > Nouveau Cuisine.... inspired by Japanese aesthetics & Chinese techniques.... this is the colorful cuisine, with subtle flavors (but more assertive than in Classical)... that still uses the advanced techniques of Classical Cuisine but forgoes much of the Classic Basic Sauces (reduction of blah, blah, peas & fried thyme instead of some butter sauce)... and anspires to beautiful, artistic modern presentation. > Street & Market Foods... your crepes, ham & cheese sandwiches etc., > Home Cooking... lightly dressed vegetables, roast chickens & potatoes etc., very much like other Continental home cooking. In my previous example comparing the techniques of France, India & Mexico.... the obvious broad differences are the French use of Wine to complete the meals flavorful profile, Indias sophisticated use of top notch spices & Mexico's sophisticated use of dried & fresh chiles etc., Ultimately... you have to eat alot of the common French dishes in each of the categories above to see & feel the pattern. There is alot of global influence in French cuisine... & their is alot of French influence in global cuisines... so somethings wont be appear to be THAT French.... so it takes understand other cuisines as well... before you can truly understand French or anyother cosmopolitan cuisine. Fri Sep 28 09:05:11 -0700 2007 2984847 42572 Eat_Nopal 4 2985445 One other thing... one you are talking about French restaurants... (and here I am going to assume that mean Haute French)... it also implies a certain style & script in the service... and rules about silverware placement, cavier & champagne carts etc., Fri Sep 28 09:08:41 -0700 2007 2985432 42572 Eat_Nopal 4 2985564 Yep. That Croquembouche you're baking in Idaho is clearly American. I'm sorry you took my light-hearted comment so seriously, but do appreciate the considerable effort you put into the response. Fri Sep 28 09:40:59 -0700 2007 2985432 15217 gini 4 2986874 "fanatical, provincialist obsessions"? Sounds like you are describing a terrorist organization rather than a cuisine. "Province" and "Provincal" in French have nothing to do with the English term "Provincial" which has a negative connation used by elitists to describe something unsophisticated. In French it just means "regional" , like the cuising of New England is different from the cuisine of Texas or California. I might add that currently, in America, the main influences in our cuisine are copying French priciples. Eating foods in season, using local ingredients are not "fanatical, provincialist obsessions", but the way more and more Americans choose to eat, both at home, and in restaurants. You might want to read a good history of French Gastronomy. Anything by Wverley Root or MFK Fisher would be a good start. Fri Sep 28 14:55:38 -0700 2007 2985432 10838 Fleur 5 2988378 My description is dead accurate you are the one that has a problem of interpretation. I have met French people who will not eat a single cheese from outside their region... how could that be described in any other way than a fanataical, provincialist obsession? Its your problem that you choose to ascribe a negative connotation to that. Sat Sep 29 10:21:48 -0700 2007 2986874 42572 Eat_Nopal 6 2989025 Have you ever dined with a Sicilian, and tried to get him to enjoy the wines, breads cheeses, egg rich pastas of the North? Or a Florentine to get excited over spicy, tomato based sauce on dry Pasta? Or heavily salted and flavored breads? We should respect the cultural and gastronomic traditions of these more rural people. They may not have the so-called savvy of yuppies ( young upwardly mobile professionals), but they sure can cook, and enjoy their own wonderful traditions, and share them with others. Cuisine and cultural traditions are very linked in France. People in France view themselves as being from a particular region, a Gascogne, Toulousien, Monegasque, Breton, Midi, etc. Each region has its specific wines and food, cheeses in particular, that are "soul food" to people from that regions. When they vote, they go back to the region they are from if they no longer live there. If they have a second home, which many French do, it is nearly always in their town of origin. If anything , it is a committment to quality, freshness, authenticity, and tradition. You don't seem to have a problem with that in 3rd world country cuisines, but only in highly developed, highly sophisticated European cultures and traditions. Gotta run, my DH and I are taking some friends out to dinner at a wonderful French Bistro, right here in NYC. Very authentic, very traditional, and outrageously delicious. Sat Sep 29 15:58:23 -0700 2007 2988378 10838 Fleur 7 2992391 Again.... I never the said the French were the only with provincialist cuisine... nor did I say it was a bad thing that was YOUR interpreation... you have the problem & the baggage. Mon Oct 01 08:20:54 -0700 2007 2989025 42572 Eat_Nopal 2 2985679 Definitely agree that even within Italian and Chinese cuisine there are significant differences, but I'm trying to get at vast (stereotypical) generalities here. At a very very high level, saying "italian" and "chinese" conjures up specific images, but french doesn't for me. Fri Sep 28 10:07:17 -0700 2007 2984619 77809 gemster 3 2985767 Gemster, you write: "saying "italian" and "chinese" conjures up specific images, but french doesn't for me." Would you explain the specific images you conjure? Maybe if we knew what you are thinking, we can give you better, more definitive answers. I'm unclear about exactly what you're seeking. Fri Sep 28 10:29:18 -0700 2007 2985679 15743 Sherri 4 2986052 Again caveat: these are very generic (and being Chinese myself, I fully understand these aren't necessarily really indicative of the real cuisine): Italian - pizza, calzones, paninis, pastas Chinese - fried and soup noodles, stir frys, dumplings Even other cuisines: Indian: curries, naan, masala Mexican: tacos, enchilada, salsa Fri Sep 28 11:44:15 -0700 2007 2985767 77809 gemster 5 2986218 It looks like you are pidgeonholing those cuisines into their simplest, street/market food forms. Real Mexican Cooking would be Open & Closed Pit Barbecues, Molcajetes, Moles, Pipianes, Mixiotes, Tlapiques & more. If you want the simple, casual versions of French its crepes, baguettes, croissants, light salads, crudites with mayo, frites, roast chickens etc., Fri Sep 28 12:26:32 -0700 2007 2986052 42572 Eat_Nopal 6 2986967 Not pidgenholing - I definitely wanted to make it clear that they were generic descriptions not necessarily indicative of the cuisines. Again, being Chinese, I know how different "real" Chinese cuisine is different from generic simple forms. That said, what I was just talking about is what few images pop into your mind when you think of a cuisine. Eat_Nopal, your last description was more in line with what I was looking for, but I wasn't just thinking of "casual" - I was trying to think of certain menu items fundamental to a cuisine that are commonly associated with the cuisine and can appear at casual restaurants but also high end restaurants (pasta, stir fry, curries would all appear at high end restaurants of their type). Fri Sep 28 15:20:28 -0700 2007 2986218 77809 gemster 4 2986997 Bouef Borgognon, Escargot en perseillade, Lapin a la moutarde, Cuisses de grenouille, Coq au vin, and of course cassoulet. these are just a few of the quintessentially french dishes that are conjured up in my mind when someone asks what is french cooking. Fri Sep 28 15:31:08 -0700 2007 2985767 106255 chazzerking 5 2987865 Add to that the ever popular Quiche Lorraine. America seems to have been quich'ed out in the 90's, but the real thing is making a comeback. Note that the dishes you mentioned are really Cuisine Bourgeois, and would be found in small, family type restaurants, and in people's homes. They would never be found at high end restaurants in Paris, or in any of the starred restaurants in Michelin. Sat Sep 29 01:20:10 -0700 2007 2986997 10838 Fleur 3 2985867 Here is a shot at some specifics.... Classic French Cuisine..... start with some Caviar & Champagne, follow it with little Tartlets... maybe a French Onion soup, then a Filet Mignon wrapped in Pastry served with some petite vegetables that are blanched, then poached in a creme sauce. Follow that up with a Creme Brulee. Regional Cuisine.... Sea Bass stew with Carrots, Celery & Onions; French Bread followed by sauteed pears with brandy reduction. Modern French... Seared Tuna served Rare over a Flan of Fish Stock & Fennel topped with frizee & arugula etc., etc., Fri Sep 28 10:50:45 -0700 2007 2985679 42572 Eat_Nopal 4 2986509 The real problem is that none of the cuisines the OP mentions can be defined in a few sentences - gah - "typical" Chinese or Indian food from countries with enormous variations in geography, climate and heterogenous populations in the neighborhood of a billion per?? Let alone the intense regionality of Italy, the fairly distinct major "regions" of France or Mexico - it's just that one doesn't see that often reflected outside the specific regions, let alone the country. What can be described in a few sentences is what "typical" American versions of each is like which is I suspect what the OP is really getting at. In which case, it's much simpler and on the whole, I think Sam's description is a pretty fair general assessment- at least outside the few serious food cities or "surprise" niches where you may find a little more variety due to foodie-demand or local demographics (like Vietnamese in Virginia, apparently.). I do feel constrained to note though, in response to eat_nopal's post that onion soup would never in a bajillion years be served at anything resembling a formal french dinner, any more than a cheese steak would be served at a formal American meal - it's a casual meal in a bowl, "supper" or a (hopeful) hangover treatment. And regional French is all over the place depending on whether you're in northern butter country or southern oil country (or many places in between), wine country, beer country, coastal or landlocked, mountainous or not, etc, etc. Which is pretty much the same deal anywhere people have lived long enough continously to establish those sorts of patterns... Fri Sep 28 13:32:26 -0700 2007 2985867 11980 MikeG 5 2986881 Excellent point. The cuisines of China and India are, after French, the most sophisticated, elaborate, and varied cuisines in the world. Fri Sep 28 14:58:06 -0700 2007 2986509 10838 Fleur 6 2988409 Chinese cuisine... has been described by many French master chefs as the greatest, most elaborate & varied in the world. I also agree with Sam that all the other cuisines with significant French technique are more compelling than actual French cuisine which repeatedly falls flat on flavor development. The French dining experience & the food is elegant... but it has serious gaps in terms of flavor complexity & sophistication. Sat Sep 29 10:37:20 -0700 2007 2986881 42572 Eat_Nopal 7 2989001 Taste is in the eyes, mind, and heart of the beholder. French cuisine doesn't "fall flat" on flavor development. The most wonderful, most delicious meals I have ever eaten have been in France. Whether dining in someone's home, at a three star restaurant, or sampling local specialties, cheeses, the fabuloius produce, the quality of the fruits and vegeables, and the wine. That is why French cuisine has had its staying power through the centures, right up to the present. Sat Sep 29 15:46:57 -0700 2007 2988409 10838 Fleur 7 2989365 You're are romanticizing "Chinese" food which is extremely varied. Yes, at the high end of the culinary ladder, it is certainly as complex and sophisticated as it gets, but it drops off dramatically for the middle class and certainly for average to poor people, especially away from major cities which are largely on the coast. High poverty rates exist and many don't have cooking facilities in their homes. A lot of "street food" is survival food. Much of China is desert or very cold, not suitable for a wide range of crops like the temperate climate of Europe. The same is not true in France where it is has long been possible to buy a wide variety of good quality produce, meats and dairy in markets in even the smallest villages. Home cooking is a tradition and small restaurants are good, and if not haute cuisine, certainly far beyond what you find in rural China. There you don't find anything like the vaunted "Chinese" cuisine that you see in a banquet or fine restaurants in Shanghai, for example. There are Michelin starred restaurants in rural France. The overall traditions of French and Chinese food - not the "cuisines" at the high end - as they exist in the day to day lives of the people are very different and probably off-topic here. Sat Sep 29 19:21:35 -0700 2007 2988409 32444 MakingSense 8 2989763 France has been a very rich country for a very long time. There is little difference among the food of the aristocracy and the food of the bourgeoisie and working classes. The differences are more regional, than they are social or economic. Rich and modest, French people all eat basically the same food. Traditional Christmas, for example. Everyone eats Foie Gras and drinks Champagne. The rich just eat a better quality, and much more of it. Sun Sep 30 00:58:18 -0700 2007 2989365 10838 Fleur 9 2989765 Chinese Food and Indian food are sophisticated and refined and evolved out of "Palace Cuisine". Most people in those countries are very poor, and don't have the variety and tradition of fine dining. Everyday people in France do. Sun Sep 30 01:01:12 -0700 2007 2989763 10838 Fleur 9 2989818 Fleur, that is one of the most distinctive characteristics about French (and to some extent Italian) cuisine, though much of Italy remained poor until fairly recently. People in modest lower-middle class and working class homes care about food and talk food - it is not just an indication of social status as it is in more northerly European countries (on the continent and the UK). Even in "les collectivités", such as villages vacances familles and social conferences, the food is fairly carefully prepared, as compared with what I have seen in other Western countries. One thing I will note is that the cookery of immigrant groups, as prepared in France, has a distinctively French character, and I'd say that after several generations, much Algerian cuisine is certainly "French", and different from how it would be prepared in the Maghreb. Sun Sep 30 04:15:40 -0700 2007 2989763 84119 lagatta 10 2991678 You raise many interesting points. I remember bowled over in awe when I first moved to Paris and looked at the weekly Menus posted on the front of the local Elementary School in the 4eme . North African Cuisine, Morocco and Algeria, already heavily influenced by their strong ties to France in the past, have become very popular, particularly in Paris. The resulting cuisine is using the available, seasonal ingredients, so wonderful and fresh, in France. The cuisine is evolving, and very different from the traditional food of the Maghreb. Very similar in fact to the way that Italian-American cuisine has evolved into a delicious cuisine unto itself, very different from the classic, traditional foods of Italy. Sun Sep 30 22:18:31 -0700 2007 2989818 10838 Fleur 5 2986975 That's the thing - as different as Chinese cuisines are, there are still "typical" foods seen throughout. I feel like part of the reason they've been adopted as "typical" American versions is because they are some of the most common and popular dishes in their respective countries. Fri Sep 28 15:23:07 -0700 2007 2986509 77809 gemster 6 2987624 I think closer examination generally shows that what shows up in other countries depends more on who introduces the cuisine, when, how, and why (we got chop suey from Chinese laborer-cooks, the French got pastry from Marie Antoinette, though I dare say Fleur will have something to say about that.. LOL) And anything that catches on tends to be repeated over and over - most restaurants that cater largely to non-natives are looking to earn a living, not be groundbreakers - if people want sweet and sour pork with fluorescent orange sauce, tomato-based shrimp "vindaloo", or spaghetti with meatballs (not traditional), they give it to 'em like any sensible businessperson. That's of course an oversimplication, but I do think it's more true than not... Fri Sep 28 20:44:31 -0700 2007 2986975 11980 MikeG 7 2987633 (Of course, businesses catering to natives are in it to make a living, but would be catering to different tastes.) Fri Sep 28 20:50:16 -0700 2007 2987624 11980 MikeG 7 2989770 Not to quibble, but what we think of as French pastry, and French cuisine in general, was brought to France in the middle of the 15th by Catherine de Medici, the young Italian Princesse who moved to France to marry the future King Henri II. She brought with her a retinue of Florentine-educated cooks and a sense of creative drama and manners. In the coming years, French cuisine turned into a magical art of beautiful presentation and innovative flavors. All the clasics, like Bechamel Sauce, Balsamella in Italian, and pate feuillete, millefoglia in Italina were brought to the French court by Caterina. Sun Sep 30 01:08:36 -0700 2007 2987624 10838 Fleur 8 2995303 Quibble away! (lol) No argument - I have no idea why I decided to type Marie Antoinette - probably because I'd forgotten Catherine de Medici's name! Tue Oct 02 04:33:39 -0700 2007 2989770 11980 MikeG 2 2995438 Of course, this is the only answer. French food is simply food from France. While it is true that Parisians like their food 'wet', you could spend weeks in the Auvergne, Alsace, and the Savoie before stumbling across a sauce. French food is true Central European food, ranging from the the Flemish Nord to the Teutonic Alsace to the Gaelic Brittany to the Iberian Pays Basque and Catalonia. It includes the 'pied noir' cuisine of Algeria and other overseas locales. If the question is: what is French food like served in an American restaurant, then I'd have to say 'wet.' Tue Oct 02 06:10:57 -0700 2007 2984619 10156 Steve 1 2991129 There's a segment on this week's Splendid Table episode on the distinction between bistros and brasseries of Paris http://splendidtable.publicradio.org/whereweeat/travel_bistros.html Sun Sep 30 17:37:01 -0700 2007 2983541 12139 paulj 2 2991680 Thanks for the link. I love that site. Sun Sep 30 22:20:05 -0700 2007 2991129 10838 Fleur