Appeal of House Wines

[invinotheresverde]

Frod, your post got me thinking...

Why is it that so many people order a glass of the house wine expecting to be wowed? Frequently they send them back, stating they aren't very good. Obviously they aren't very good; they're the cheapest on a very large by-the-glass list.

Are people confused by the idea of house wines? Do they expect the $7 glass to be as good, if not better than the $18 glass?

I've noticed this frequently with older people. Was the house wine of yesteryear the restaurant's BEST product instead of the best QPR?

I know my fellow Hounds will have some ideas about this baffling question.

[invinotheresverde]

I'm not trying to argue with anyone, rather ask the opinions of those who know more than me about something I see on an almost daily basis which confuses the bejesus out of me.

[Robert Lauriston]

Some places have good house wine. You never know until you try.

The fact that it's the cheapest wine on the list doesn't mean you can't send it back if it's bad. If more people would do that, there'd be less bad house wine.

[Robert Lauriston]

There's no practical reason American restaurants couldn't buy tasty, simple wine in appropriate large containers and sell it by the glass and carafe at a very reasonable price, just as many restaurants in France and Italy do.

There's actually a bit of that going on in the San Francisco area. TWO gets custom-blended wine "en vrac" from Jim Neal Wine Company (which apparently is focused mostly on selling verjus). Mas Vino distributes wine to a number of restaurants in a high-tech keg that holds almost 20 bottles.

http://www.jnwines.com
http://www.maswinecompany.com/aboutwine.html
http://www.chowhound.com/topics/315327

[Bill Hunt]

Yes, if a restaurant knows, and cares, much better can be done. Too bad that most folk will never have the opportunity to experience it.

Hunt

[Chew on That]

It's possible that people assume the house wine is the "special" meaning it's featured and supposed to be good. It could seem like a recommendation, so to speak.

[Bill Hunt]

Personal observation: if a restaurant has a "special wine," I am usually not impressed. The distributor is trying to move stock and I have yet to find a "special," that was worth the $. That probably speaks volumns about a restaurant, that does this, than it does my experiences. Many good "specials" probably exist, but not at the lower-end restaurants, that I have experienced, i.e. Chili's and that ilk. At most restaurants, if they have a "table talker," I ignore that, and go for the wine list. Maybe I'm missing something here.

Hunt

[Frodnesor]

"House wine" is something entirely different in my mind from a "wine special".

I've had both good and not-so-good experiences with "wine specials." In another post I told a story of a Ridge MonteBello 1/2 bottle I naively bought as a "special" for $90 without first asking for the price. Much more than I intended to spend, but actually a great wine and not a completely outrageous price given what it was (this I'd call both a good and bad experience, simultaneously).

Was recently at the Olema Inn in the Point Reyes, CA area where they had 3-4 wines listed throughout the wine list as "specials" which were all good bottles and fairly priced.

At David Bouley's Evolution in Miami Beach, they were recently rejiggering the wine list to become much more Burgundy-centric and had "bin end specials" on many wines that didn't fit into the new list, with some excellent close-to-retail prices.

[Bill Hunt]

Frodnesor,

You are absolutely correct. My reference was to the "specials," usually set up by the distributor, and featuring some specific wines from their portfolio. I have found these, most often, to not be "special," but just an attempt to move a quantity of a particular wine.

I was not clear on this, and I can see much room for confusion. The "bin end specials" are usually very special. I've encountered many of these, and have been almost universally pleased with the relative bargains. I usually gravitate to these "1-2 bottles left" lists, because they are most often good wines, that either have fallen off the list, or are being phased out. Good call.

Hunt

[Greg B]

Let me chime in with nothing more than my personal experience.

Some years ago when I knew next to nothing about wine and had only occasionally started to order wine with a restaurant meal, I had an understanding in my own mind what the "house wine" meant. To me at the time, it meant that it was a wine that the proprietor liked because of the quality to price ratio. Something they were proud to serve, and something that would reflect well on the restaurant In other words, good (or at least decent) wine at a good price.

Keep in mind that this was back in the late 70s and early 80s when a restaurant serving Kressmann Selectionne as a house wine was considered a cut above the rest who were serving Chateau-Gai or Carlo Rossi. For a while I ended up drinking a lot of glasses of fairly unenjoyable Kressmann or B&G Cuvee Speciale until I realized that house wine usually meant stuff that came in large containers that they could sell very profitably by the glass, and that the quality was very much second fiddle.

[invinotheresverde]

Interesting...

[Bill Hunt]

Yes, the tanker truck would pull up in the alley and attach a hose to the "house wine" cask... No, just kidding, but not too much.

Some restaurants take up the challange and do very well. Roy Yamaguchi is one. Most do not, and it shows. Many do not realize that wine IS part of the meal. Too many just do the math and could not care enough.

I think that it depends entirely on the chef and the restaurant. A local Italian spot has some major "house wines," but they are an all too rare instance.

It's all in the idealology of the kitchen and the front of the house.

Hunt

[FrankJBN]

"Why is it that so many people order a glass of the house wine expecting to be wowed?"

I missed the post you reference, but I know of no one who expects the house wine to anything other than the house wine. Are you sure "so many" people expect to be wowed by it?

"Frequently they send them back, stating they aren't very good."

Really? Damned nice of a restaurant to accept a glass of perfectly good wine back simply because the patron doesn't like it. Wonder how they handle the patron who doesn't like the $18 glass or the $100 bottle? How do they explain that they will satisfy a patron, but only if it doesn't cost them too much?

"Was the house wine of yesteryear the restaurant's BEST product instead of the best QPR?"

Certainly not in 35 years and most likely not before. How could the least expensive wine on the menu be the best product? By the by, house wines are usually not the best QPR. They are most often least expensive, but a 500% markup is not uncommon on the house wine, that is to say, a glass selling for the price of a bottle.

[invinotheresverde]

I meant QPR for the restaurant, not the customer. It has to be "decent" and cheap, right? :)

Also, yes, many people where I work think the house wines are going to be something special. I guess my question is WHY?

I just don't get it.

[zin1953]

Admittedly, you and I are probably of two different generations, but I have NEVER met ANYONE -- regardless of their age -- who thinks that the house wine is going to be special . . .

[invinotheresverde]

Maybe it's a regional thing? Extreme coincidence?

[invinotheresverde]

Or perhaps it's more the excitement to be ordering wine at all and not simply because it's the house wine? I guess that would make sense, as people who don't drink wine often would probably be more apt to order the cheapie house junk instead of something good. Hmmm....

[dinwiddie]

I agree with you zin, I've never met anyone who expected the house wine to be special. What I do find is that folks who are not "into" wine or who just want some generic wine are more than satisfied with the house wine by the glass. More power to them, but then they wouldn't be wowed by a great wine either, unless someone else was paying for it.

[FrankJBN]

"I meant QPR for the restaurant, not the customer. It has to be "decent" and cheap, right?"

I must say, I have never seen QPR used this way, that is to describe a seller's highest profit item.

I don't know wherte you work, but I have the feeling "many" of your co-workers would not comprise a portion of restaurant wine buyers that could be described as "so many people".

I think you are simply mistaken, and the other responses bear mine out. While you apparently work where many people expect to be "wowed" by house wines, in actuality very few people expect to have that sensation.

[invinotheresverde]

I see and hear it countless times.

[FrankJBN]

We might be able to glean something from what else do the customers say in these countless times when they expect the house to be something special? First, how do you know they expect to be wowed? Do they advise of this expectation when they order or when they are disappointed? if the former, do you advise 'It is the house wine you know - it won't be very good,'? if the latter, do you ever ask them what they expected?

That would be the way to get an answer to the question "Why?" the customers of your restaurant expect to be wowed. Ask them. Particularly since based on the responses here, your experience is rather singular.

So it is your place of work that accepts back house wine when the customer finds it is not very good? (Bearing in mind that the dichotomy that a wine "not very good" can still be "perfectly good") What then do you do in the situations I asked about above? Do you accept back perfectly good expensive wine simply because the customer does not like it?

[MMRuth]

Late to this thread, which I noticed because, for example, I often order the house wines by the carafe when I'm at Balthazar. What I expect as a customer is a wine that is reasonably priced and mildly enjoyable, not dreck. That said, I've recently discovered that my local Italian place's wine by the glass at $10, which I stopped ordering ages ago, is a boxed wine (discovered after observing the boxes in the trash while walking the dog in the early am and having a follow up conversation in Spanish with the guys who come in early and work in the kitchen).

[mengathon]

Ruth,

I order the carafes at Balthazar all the time as well! I think their carafe program is exemplary. It offers its customers who arent very serious about wine a very good product at an affordable price, as well as those who have simply walked in on an afternoon just for a snack an option to have a couple of glasses without spending dinner prices. Personally, aside from a bottle of champagne, I've never ordered anything other than the Dom. de la Pépière Muscadet with a plate of oysters. If only more restaurants would follow suit...

http://www.balthazarny.com/menus/wine...

[zin1953]

In all my years of experience, "QPR" (quality-price ratio) has always meant value to the consumer . . .

[invinotheresverde]

Does it have to, though?

[zin1953]

Does it HAVE to? Does anyting HAVE to? Does Cabenret Sauvignon have to be red? No, but it usually is.

In 35 years, I've never heard QPR refer to profits. It's always been Quality-Price Ratio for the Consumer . . . <shrug>

[Bill Hunt]

I can only imagine that anyone who is likely to order this "house wine," only wants something to drink with the food, in a wine glass, and that they do not care what is in it.

Now, if we're talking certain establishments, then the term "house wine," can become a different thing, entirely. Chef Mavro's, Honolulu, has a 1er Cru Delinger Chassagne-Montrachet as their "house white." Now, it's US$25/glass, but well worth it. Not your normal Macaroni Grille "house wine."

Hunt

[zin1953]

My example above . . . $0.10 per ounce for a $3.00 4-oz. glass? 750% markup.

[FrankJBN]

Never said 500% was the upper limit.

I used to go to a struggling urban bar/rerstaurant trying to position itself as arty and upscale in a very tough neighborhood for that (they failed, but they gave it a hack)

When they opened, their house red was Citra Montepulciano, a a drinkable bargain wine retailing at $3.50 per 750ml, $5.00 for the 1.5L. I was willing to throw the $3 price after a glass.

When they raised it to $5 a glass, I just couldn't do it. As a glass of house wine, it was probably worth $5, but since I could have it at home for .50 per ...

As the QPR tales go, the next step up was a Rodney Strong Sonoma CS selling for 50% above retail

[zin1953]

>>> I've noticed this frequently with older people. Was the house wine of yesteryear the restaurant's BEST product instead of the best QPR? <<<

No. House wine was NEVER a restaurant's best wine . . . but let's make the distinction between restaurants serving "house wine" in the US and those in Europe.

IN THE US:

Every restaurant used to serve a "house wine" prior to the early-to-mid 1980s. Today, only a handful do. What's changed? Simple. Everything!

1) wines are better;
2) restaurants can now serve wines by-the-glass (this used to be ILLEGAL in many places);
3) customers expect more;
4) wine is more "mainstream" (though it still has a long ways to go);
5) and so on and so on . . . .

House wine -- in the "old days" -- was largely jug wine. Wines like Gallo*, Paul Masson, Inglenook Navalle, Almaden, Summit, and if you go back farther, brands like Roma and Guild. Even Budweiser used to make a brand called, IIRC, Master's Cellar. It came in one gallon jugs -- later these were replaced by 4.0 liter jugs, along with 18.0 liter "casks" and even beer kegs full of wine (thank Bud!).

Back in the era immediately following Prohibition, wine was never a big seller. (NEver has been in the US; beer and spirits were always more important.) So it was mostly the "ethnic" market (read Italian-Americans, as well as Portuguese-, Spanish- and Greek-Americans) who ordered wine in a restaurant.

This didn't change all that much over the years, until the "wine boom" of the late-1960s and 1970s, when people began shifting from drinking Scotch and Bourbon all through their meal** to having some wine. Still, house wines dominated the market -- available by the glass, by the half-carafe and the (whole) carafe. Paul Masson even bottled their Burgundy, Chablis, and Vin Rose in one-liter carafes so people could serve their favorite "house wine" at home!

When serving wines-by-the-glass became legal, people began shifting. It started out with low-end reds and whites. I remember talking to one restaurant owner about switching his house wine. He told me that I couldn't possibly beat his price -- he was pouring Summit Chablis fo only $0.03/ounce. I told him he was right, that I couldn't beat the price. BUT . . . I asked him . . . what did "Summit Chablis" say about his restaurant? I had Tieffenbrunner Chardonnay from the Alto-Adige for $36 a case, which worked out to something like $0.10/ounce -- so he could still serve a 4-oz. pour and make $$$$ selling it fdor $3/glass! And didn't serving an "imported Chardonnay" say something about his restaurant that "Summit Chablis" didn't? He switched on the spot, and never looked back!

With the "success" of low-end wines, ever more expensive wines were served by-the-glass, and 375ml bottles nearly died out completely -- disappearing off most wine lists. (Today, they are making a comeback, but for a totally different reason.)

IN EUROPE:

There are some excellent "house wines" still . . .

Cheers,
Jason

* Gallo still has most of the house wine accounts, but they sell under the brand name William Wycliffe.

[Bill Hunt]

First, what Jason said. Second, I cannot fathom anyone ordering the "house wine," and expecting more than a liquid. OTOH, I have worthwhile "house wines," and no guest has ever turned up their noses at them - but I am NOT a restaurant.

In Europe (read wine areas), the "house wine," is likely to be a regionally produced, less expensive bulk wine, but in many ways different than the "bulk wines," that one is likely to encounter in the US.

There have been a few restaurants, where their "house wines," were the mid-range wines on many wine lists. These, however, are the exception.

I'm afraid that I never order a carafe of unknown, unlabeled wine with my meal in the US. Most "house wines," in the US are refered to as: white, pink or red.

Hunt

[zin1953]

I gave Europe short-shrift above, presuming we were talking about house wines here in the US -- where it's rarely anything but industrial swil . . . bulk wine from the larger (-est) producers of generic jug wines. But Bill is spot-on.

>>> In Europe (read wine areas), the "house wine," is likely to be a regionally produced, less expensive bulk wine, but in many ways different than the "bulk wines," that one is likely to encounter in the US. <<<

In the wine-producing areas of France, I've never been disappointed with "un pichet de vin rouge." Quite often, it's wine that is made by the restaurant owner him- (her-) self; or something from one of the local vignerons or cave co-operatives. It's the perfect option when dining on a budget, or when dining (or "lunching") alone, etc., etc. I've never been disappointed . . .

OTOH, here in the States, I've never been appointed (read "satisfied," "pleased," "enjoyed") . . . .