442267 Mon Sep 17 20:00:09 -0700 2007 21 34 Wine 0 2950871 I've been drinking my fair share of these of late but rarely get a chance to taste different regions side by side, and have yet to develop the "taste memory" that enables me to meaningfully compare what I had last month with what I had last night (though I am making more of an effort to take notes). So for those with better palates or recall than mine, what would you say are the defining characteristics (if you think there are such things) that help you distinguish among pinots from different California regions? i.e. Anderson Valley Russian River Valley Sonoma Coast Santa Barbara "They're all just over-extracted fruit bombs" is not an appropriate response. Mon Sep 17 20:00:09 -0700 2007 35525 Frodnesor 1 2951578 >>> "They're all just over-extracted fruit bombs" is not an appropriate response. <<< Well depending upon WHO is making the wines, WHEN they were picked, and HOW they were made, it might be the ONLY response! When Pinot Noir is made at 15 or even 16 percent alcohol, it loses -- at least to my palate -- almost all regional character and generally reminds me more of Syrah than it does of Pinot Noir. To GENERALIZE . . . broadly . . . (meaning there will be many exceptions) . . . . Anderson Valley is the coolest AVA of those you mention, and often yields Pinots that are the most delicate in character -- both aromatically and in terms of flavor. Think maybe Savigny-les-Beaune? (NOTE: I am not thinking in terms of actually tasting like the Burgundies from this French commune, but in terms of comparison to the other areas of California relative to each other that I'm about to describe. It's just an arbitrary tool, and not meant to suggest that Anderson Valley Pinot will actually taste like Savigny-les-Beaune.) You don't mention it, but the Santa Cruz Mountains AVA would be more akin to Gevrey-Chambertin. It's the second coolest AVA in California, and while it has some of the delicacy of Anderson Valley, it also yields wines with more spice and earthiness. The Russian River Valley AVA yields wines with a more silky texture and riper fruit. Morey-St.-Denis? The Sonoma Coast AVA is, to me, too new -- I haven't really "settled" on a clear, defining set of characters for this area. I know that I like the fruit, but not the way many of the producers seem to be making wine. So I'll pass for the moment. Santa Barbara County (Santa Maria Valley and Santa Ynez Valley AVAs) is more like Pommard, in a sense. The wines are less earthy, more velvety in texture; more plush in aromatics and softer. Again, you don't mention it, but Edna Valley AVA might be more akin to Volnay -- a more elegant, subtle version but otherwise similar to Pommard/Santa Barbara. Anyway, don't put too much stock in the "French Connection." As I said, it's just a tool for me . . . Cheers, Jason Tue Sep 18 07:09:24 -0700 2007 2950871 28122 zin1953 2 2952176 I find much more difference between the older vineyards and those planted more recently. It outshows the regional variation. I suspect (based on a recent tasting of Hitching Post wines) that the difference MAY be due to the clones planted. I find the 'Davis approved' clones seem to taste quite similar, but a significant difference to the so-called 'Mount Eden' (or Wente) clone (which was used in the Sanford Vineyard). So Jason's note of the Santa Cruz AVA is significant. Ironic that the ex-winemaker at Mount Eden was the one who pushed the Dijon clones as she found the Mount Eden version very difficult to work with! (There's no way the Mt Eden will give over-alcoholic wines as the bunches don't ripen evenly). I'm now 'attempting' to find makers who produce different 'single-clone' pinots to try and understand this further. But, to my palate the clonal mix seems more important than the region. To extend this further, I do not find the Oregon PN's significantly different from Sonoma (in general) - they are also Davis clones (or Dijon as they're generally notated). Tue Sep 18 09:42:30 -0700 2007 2951578 11134 estufarian 3 2952547 Melville in Santa Rita Hills does a series of single clone bottlings (may be mailing list only). Interesting you say that you do not find Oregon PN's significantly different from Sonoma. I've had a decent bit of Oregon PN as well and - whether clone, terroir or winemaking style - I usually find Oregon PN to be pretty distinguishable from California. Lighter and softer bodied, much more red fruit than black, typically more mineral, earth and spice, less fruit-forward. Tue Sep 18 11:12:56 -0700 2007 2952176 35525 Frodnesor 4 2953043 Often higher acid in Oregon Pinots as well. Tue Sep 18 13:09:38 -0700 2007 2952547 11369 Robert Lauriston 4 2954470 In very general terms, I also find more "damp earth," "mushrooms" and "leather," in WA/OR PNs, than in CA variations. Depending on the cuisine, I'll often "go north" for more food-friendly PNs, though I love the CA variations, from the lightest, most subtle to the "fruit bombs." Hunt Tue Sep 18 20:51:47 -0700 2007 2952547 11329 Bill Hunt 3 2953139 Random thoughts: 1) You're quite right that the age of the vines is a crucial factor. This is true in Burgundy, and certainly true in California. 2) You are right again in pointing out that lonal selection is yet another key factor in Pinot Noir production. Pinot Noir is genetically unstable, and it mutates on its own, let alone with some assistance. The original "species garden" (long before they were called "clones") was planted by UC Davis in the late-1940s or early-1950s in Louis M. Martini's "L:as Amigas" vineayrd in Carneros. UC Davis replanted it in the mid-1970s in Fancis Mahoney's vineyard at Carneros Creek Winery. The old Sunrise Winery used to bottle single clone Pinots -- both from the same (Ventana) vineyard in Monterey Co. -- and bottled them following identical treatment in the cellar. No more than a handful of other vintners have done the same thing, as most prefer to use a MIX of clones in their vineyard(s), and/or blend various vineyards together that are themselves a mix of differing clones. Cheers, Jason Tue Sep 18 13:31:51 -0700 2007 2952176 28122 zin1953 3 2972809 Willakenzie in Oregon also does some single-clone bottlings - available to club members only. Mon Sep 24 20:25:54 -0700 2007 2952176 35525 Frodnesor 2 2953250 Just my personal impressions that Santa Barbara pinots, especially reserves, can have very earthy taste notes.... in fact that's one characteristic I find very notable about them Tue Sep 18 13:51:36 -0700 2007 2951578 42549 Chicago Mike 1 2952247 I think your first step would have to be to identify some California pinots that highlight the terroir. Most are made in the exact opposite manner. Lazy Creek used to, but the new owners, not so much. Schug used to, haven't had it in a few years. Tue Sep 18 09:59:38 -0700 2007 2950871 11369 Robert Lauriston 1 2957854 I don't have the encyclopedic knowledge of the other participants on this thread, but here's what I've got so far (based on just a few years of tasting, and next to zero Oregon and Burgundy knowledge/experience). 1. Santa Barbara has multiple microclimates, so it's much harder to generalize characteristics for the region as a whole - I think from now on, I'll try to take notes on which AVA Santa Barbara wines come from. I remember distinctly tasting cranberries and black tea in a bunch of pinots (wish I remember which ones - but I remember it was a flavor I'd never tasted before in pinot). I also distinctly remember tasting cherry cough syrup (Hitching Post. That one I remember). 2. Russian River Valley pinots taste like plums and cherries and mushrooms to me. They are distinctly silkier than the rest. 3. Anderson Valley - I'm much more limited in my Anderson Valley exposure - I did taste a bunch this year, but only this year, and I'm finding that I haven't really liked any pinots released in this past year, even from my favorite wineries. Everything's been too alcoholic for me to taste much of anything. So without having had any Anderson Valley pinots from less-alcoholic years, I can't say much. I thought I was getting a lot of herbal flavors - sage, thyme. Not much fruit. 4. Sonoma Coast - haven't had enough to be able to generalize. Wed Sep 19 19:21:46 -0700 2007 2950871 44059 daveena 1 2958360 I'll reply more fully when I have the time to write a novel. However, regarding the Sonoma Coast... It is almost indistinguishable from the Russian River. The biggest difference is that the wines often have *slightly* *slightly* more acidity and *slightly* slightly* brighter fruit flavors. But the two are right next to one another and honestly, so much depends upon the producer... I mean, I think a Dehlinger Goldridge (RRV) or a Freeman RRV Pinot taste a lot more like a typical Sonoma Coast Pinot than a Martinelli or Marcassin Blue Slide Ridge a Kosta Browne Kanzler (all SC, all taste like RRV). Thu Sep 20 00:25:44 -0700 2007 2950871 50041 whiner 2 2958700 You are absolutely right when you say, "so much depends upon the producer." Personally, I think "Martinelli or Marcassin Blue Slide Ridge a Kosta Browne Kanzler" taste not so much of Russian River Valley but rather of Martinelli, Marcassin and Kosta Browne . . . Thu Sep 20 06:54:45 -0700 2007 2958360 28122 zin1953 3 2958892 Interesting, because what in part prompted my query was a rather self-congratulatory column in this month's Food & Wine magazine by a wine collector who claimed "In a blind tasting, I can usually tell a Russian River Valley Pinot Noir from one from the Sonoma Coast." http://www.foodandwine.com/articles/recollections-of-hindu-hedonist Thu Sep 20 07:45:53 -0700 2007 2958700 35525 Frodnesor 4 2959226 1) I missed that in F&W (October? what page?), but I always take everything in F&W with several large grains of salt . . . 2) It's an amazingly stupid and arrogant statement. Not only, as whiner said, the differences between the Sonoma Coast and Russian River Valley are slight, but EVERYONE makes mistakes in blind tastings -- no matter what their level of experience, no matter how many years they have been "involved" in wine . . . This is true for "serious wine collectors" (whatever that means), as it is for retailers, for sommeliers, for wine writers/critics . . . for winemakers! Some true examples: a) When I used to drink a lot more Bordeaux than I do now, some friends decided to try to "trip me up" and served me three different clarets from three different decanters and wanted me to identify the wines. As I recall, I guessed one was a 1967 Château Léoville Las Cases, and it was a 1967 Langoa Barton. OK, that was a "hit" -- I got the vintage right; I got the commune (St.-Julien) right; the two châteaux are a stone's-throw apart.) I thought one was from the commune of Margaux -- I forget which specifc wine I named, but I was one vintage off, the wine was from St.-Émilion. The Margaux I guessed had a high proportion of Merlot (around 40%, IIRC), while the St.-Émilion that it actually was had an even higher one (something like 66-75%) -- I counted it as a miss, but everyone else seemed impressed. And the third, I think I got the vintage right but I guessed Graves and it was from St.-Éstephe . . .or the other way 'round, I forget. I thought that, too, was "a miss" but everyone was much more impressed than I was . . . and I knew they were Bordeaux! b) Was it the Harry Waugh, or another great British wine writer, who -- when asked if he ever mistook a Bordeaux for a Burgundy -- famously replied, "Not since lunch." You'd think that Cabernet and Pinot Noir would be pretty obvious, but we've ALL made that mistake before! c) One of the toughest tests for sensory evaluation that UC Davis ever came up with is the "dreaded" T-test, or triangle test. An individual is served three glasses of wine. The contents of two are identical; the third is different. Most people can do no better by tasting the wines than they could by randomly guessing which was the duplicate. d) The California State Fair is one of the ONLY competitions that actually makes ALL prospective judges (winemakers, wine writers, retailers, restauranteurs, wholesalers, importers, and consumers) take a test to qualify as a judge. (It's long, it's complicated, and I'll be happy to describe it upon request.) The point? Two Buck Chuck STILL got a gold medal for their Chardonay! Now, I will grant you that a winemaker who produces Pinot Noirs, especially from the Russian River Valley and Sonoma Coast AVAs, can probably taste the difference between the GRAPES of the two regions, and probably correctly identify which of his (or her) wines is which -- the RRV or the SC. But even winemakers will, at times, have difficulty telling someone else's wines apart . . . sometimes more, sometimes less, depending upon all sorts of variables, not least of which is the wine itself and the wine maker who "created" it. Thu Sep 20 09:05:26 -0700 2007 2958892 28122 zin1953 5 2959310 Bronco got a gold medal for whatever was in those bottles with the Charles Shaw label. I'm skeptical that they just grabbed them off the line. An experienced taster can usually ace a triangle test, just as we can usually sort out which wines in a flight are which if the glasses get juggled. Wineries will sometimes hire a panel of experts to do triangle tests to see whether subtle differences are actually noticeable. Thu Sep 20 09:26:14 -0700 2007 2959226 11369 Robert Lauriston 6 2960171 Second things first . . . The SF International Wine Competition -- when they tested their prospective judges (which, BTW, they no longer do) -- used to use T-tests as one of the "hurdles" that needed to be passed. You'd be surprised how many people, including winemakers, failed the test. As for Bronco, I'd bet money the bottle wasn't "just grabbed off the line." Thu Sep 20 12:25:46 -0700 2007 2959310 28122 zin1953 7 2974816 Third that. I've always suspected the bottles were doctored. V. Sattui also. Tue Sep 25 12:03:33 -0700 2007 2960171 18222 maria lorraine 7 2976445 Even considering the reported "bottle variations" of 2BC, I still plan on doing a blind-tasting of their Chard (one varietal from them, that I have not had) against some that we usually have around the house - as per the b-in-a-box thread. I'll try to get my wife to serve them to ME blind, and see what the hoopla is all about. I do not mind cheap, but my earlier tastes of 2BC, Cab & Merlot, made me feel as though someone would have to pay ME more than $2, just to drink them. It's off to TJ's (and to Target) for me. I'll have a nice Red Shoulders Ranch, in case I have to clean my palette. Hunt Tue Sep 25 19:03:38 -0700 2007 2960171 11329 Bill Hunt 4 2959250 Food & Wine is a bad magazine. Thu Sep 20 09:11:38 -0700 2007 2958892 11369 Robert Lauriston 5 2959264 I'm not sure I'd actually say that it is outright "bad," but it certainly is not as "good" as itcould/should be -- and I would rarely cite it as an authoritative source. Thu Sep 20 09:15:51 -0700 2007 2959250 28122 zin1953 6 2959466 I'm certainly not citing F&W as an authoritative source - indeed I was surprised and skeptical about the author's claim (and thought the whole article was stupid and arrogant). But it did prompt my question as to whether folks here could identify particular regional characteristics whch would enable such an ability to distinguish at a blind tasting. Thu Sep 20 09:59:10 -0700 2007 2959264 35525 Frodnesor