440376 Tue Sep 11 18:01:18 -0700 2007 50 34 Wine 0 2932540 I had some outstanding Mexican wine at One and Only Palmilla last month in San Jose Del Cabo. It's Grand Reserva Casa Grande..........I can't locate any in the U. S. Any ideas. Thanks........... Tue Sep 11 18:01:18 -0700 2007 15271 Littleman 1 2932668 Perhaps you mean the Cabernet from Casa Madero in the Parras valley? You could always email or phone the restaurant. That'd clear things up fast. Did you dine at the "C" [Charlie Trotter] restaurant or Agua? Tue Sep 11 18:41:59 -0700 2007 2932540 18222 maria lorraine 1 2932733 "Grand Reserva Casa Grande" Great Reserve of the Big House??? Tue Sep 11 18:59:33 -0700 2007 2932540 28122 zin1953 2 2932957 It's the jailbirds' top swill. Seriously, I think Casa Grande is a vineyard designation. Tue Sep 11 20:27:43 -0700 2007 2932733 18222 maria lorraine 2 2935651 Sounds like something Randall Grahm would love! Bonny Doon already had a Big House Red from the vineyards near the Soledad Prison - why not a "Grand Reserve Big House Red"? Wed Sep 12 14:53:19 -0700 2007 2932733 35525 Frodnesor 2 2939985 More info on Casa Madera @ http://www.madero.com.mx/pages/principal.html Maria is correct... its a vineyard designation... referring to the terroir surrounding the main home & the property. There are also vineyards around a smaller building... presumably housing for the Hacienda's employees or perhaps a concubine (Casa Chica usually would refer to this).... I believe now a days its an orphanage. Thu Sep 13 19:27:25 -0700 2007 2932733 42572 Eat_Nopal 3 2940022 Eat Nopal, deep in the recesses of my memory I recall your talking about the history of Casa Madero. Couldn't remember where or how...Then I found your post..nice job... http://www.chowhound.com/topics/393547 Thu Sep 13 19:47:28 -0700 2007 2939985 18222 maria lorraine 1 2933559 While we're on the subject... Mexican Petit Syrah? Anyone? Wed Sep 12 06:15:31 -0700 2007 2932540 121997 BaileysMom521 2 2933652 I've only had one . . . that was in Mexico, and it wasn't very good. Then again, the storage conditions in rural Mexico aren't the best, so . . . . Wed Sep 12 06:48:00 -0700 2007 2933559 28122 zin1953 3 2942658 I attended a Guadalupe Valley tasting this spring with about 20 producers. I was quite surprised at how tasty the L.A. Cetto PS was. Fri Sep 14 14:56:45 -0700 2007 2933652 18222 maria lorraine 4 2943244 That was what I had . . . it tasted, to my palate, more like Central Valley fruitthan, say Central Coast . . . Fri Sep 14 19:15:08 -0700 2007 2942658 28122 zin1953 5 2945626 I thought the L.A. Cetto PS was a good effort. It's not a stellar PS but for $9 or so, might be a good value for some. Sun Sep 16 00:40:17 -0700 2007 2943244 18222 maria lorraine 6 2945920 FWIW... as Vin Ordinaire... i think the Domecq & Cetto stuff is fine if you are at Sanborn's or some neighborhood Barbacoa place and that is what they have by the glass. However, in general Mexican wines are NOT a good value at the low end.... and that is why Mexico is still dominated by Chilean & Spanish wines at the lower price points. Where I think Mexican wines do well is a little more on the high end.... they can be a good value versus Napa & French wines. Sun Sep 16 08:01:47 -0700 2007 2945626 42572 Eat_Nopal 1 2933708 I have the idea that it is not available in the United States. Another idea would be to forget about it until you are back where you had it. There are so many wonderful wines, IMO it is not worth the expenditure of any time to find one that you had in some foreign location on a special occasion. Truth is, often that same wine tastes very different when you are not in a fine beachfront restaurant under the tropical sun. Wed Sep 12 07:11:27 -0700 2007 2932540 26666 FrankJBN 1 2934348 Casa Madero Gran Reserva Casa Grande appears to be available in Texas: http://www.wine-searcher.com/find/Casa+Madero/2/USA-/USD/A/-/0 I had some great wines at Laja in the Guadalupe Valley, but the chef said that the best ones are available only at the winery, a few restaurants nearby, and in Mexico City. http://www.chowhound.com/topics/308726#2182992 Wed Sep 12 09:42:11 -0700 2007 2932540 11369 Robert Lauriston 1 2938867 On a related note, I had a wonderful white from Chateau Camou from Guadalupe Valley at Parallel 33 when I was visiting San Diego. Really fantastic, full bodied white. I have never found anywhere to buy it in the U.S., but if you live in SD, I'd definitely recommend trying it! Thu Sep 13 13:39:12 -0700 2007 2932540 12859 jonasblank 2 2939656 Mexican wines are not easily found in San Diego and CA. There are import laws in place to protect the CA wine industry. If you can find Mexican wines in SD they are spendy. My source is a wine industry professional, owner of Wines of Mexico, who works with the wineries in the Valle de Guadalupe. Thu Sep 13 17:34:21 -0700 2007 2938867 10506 DiningDiva 3 2939696 If there are laws intended to protect the California wine industry, they're not doing much to block the supply of imports from Europe, South America, and Australia. The best Guadalupe wines are startlingly expensive even there, so they'd be a hard sell in the U.S. Thu Sep 13 17:48:04 -0700 2007 2939656 11369 Robert Lauriston 4 2940026 I know, it didn't make much sense to me either, particularly in light of NAFTA and the other foreign imports. Perhaps it has something to do with the V de G's geographical proximity to CA. Wines from the Valle de Guadalupe aren't exactly inexpensive south of the border either. I found a fairly large selection (mostly Monte Xanic, Chauteau Camou and L.A. Cetto) at an H*E*B in Monterrey, prices were high even with a favorable conversion factor. OTOH, I bought a bottle of L.A. Cetto in Cuernavaca this past January and it was pretty inexpensive, less than $10USD Thu Sep 13 19:48:31 -0700 2007 2939696 10506 DiningDiva 5 2940177 I don't know how this would play out... but I remember reading that the vast majority of grapes used by the wineries around San Diego (namely Temecula)... historically came from V de G... so I wonder if there is some weird historical barrier to the value-added product... but not the grapes. After all look at how California's avocado growers have bent over backwards to keep the Michoacanian fruit out of their major markets. There might also be something cultural about it. Many enophiles that I have met, are recent converts... and I have noticed this penchant for all things French & Italian... somehow the image of Mexican wines could threaten their perception of wine as the beverage of great, first world nations... and then the dirty Mexicans have to come & burst their bubble etc., Even people I have hosted for dinners, who love Mexican cuisine and are also wine lovers... seem to be bothered when I serve Mexican wines. At one point, I thought maybe they just didn't like the wines down there... but some of those wines have taken important hardware in the most important European wine festivals (including the big one in France)... so I don't think that they are that horrible... and that I cut them some slack because I was born there. Thu Sep 13 20:56:29 -0700 2007 2940026 42572 Eat_Nopal 6 2941382 The hard-to-find wines I had at Laja were in terms of flavor comparable to French wines of similar style, but if they were competing head-to-head on price here in California, the French wines would be much better values. I think there is a certain amount of nationalist pride involved. Mexico makes a very limited amount of fine wine and rich Mexicans are willing to pay a premium for it. Could also be that Mexico imposes high import tariffs so the French wines are less affordable there. Fri Sep 14 09:40:07 -0700 2007 2940177 11369 Robert Lauriston 5 2941363 Cetto is mass-market plonk, sort of like Gallo in California. Fri Sep 14 09:35:20 -0700 2007 2940026 11369 Robert Lauriston 6 2941434 Cetto & Domecq are definitely the two biggest producers... their entry level wines go for about $3 to $5 a bottle... but both have Private Reserves that are more dignified. The best at Cetto (a winery of Italian heritage)... are the Italian inspired wines. They are much harder to come by. Fri Sep 14 09:51:47 -0700 2007 2941363 42572 Eat_Nopal 7 2941463 The nebbiolo Reserva Privada's the only Italian-seeming wine I find on their Web site. The rest seem to be patterned after French and California wines--they even have white zinfandel and petite sirah! http://www.cettowines.com/ I've found that the better Cetto and Domecq releases are too California-influenced for my taste. When in Mexico, I prefer some of the Chilean wines available there. Fri Sep 14 09:59:50 -0700 2007 2941434 11369 Robert Lauriston 8 2941629 Have you tried Casa Madero, Chateau Camou or some of the Monte Xanics? I remember them being much more like European wines... I am particularly remembering a Camou Cabernet Franc, a Monte Xanic Sauvigon Blanc... and all the Casa Maderos are much more like European wines than California wines, IMO. Fri Sep 14 10:39:28 -0700 2007 2941463 42572 Eat_Nopal 9 2941688 I've had some of Monte Xanic's wines, never very impressed. The only truly fine Mexican wines I've had were at Laja, and they were from Adobe Guadalupe, Agrifolia, Casa de Piedra, and Couttolenc Bueno. Fri Sep 14 10:51:00 -0700 2007 2941629 11369 Robert Lauriston 10 2941934 Alot of the Mexican wineries are very, very young & just getting their grove so I think there is going to be significant variation from one vintage to another. Monte Xanic's 2004 Sauvignon Blanc is one of the best I've had in the last year. Fri Sep 14 11:48:49 -0700 2007 2941688 42572 Eat_Nopal 11 2942013 Monte Xanic is celebrating its 20th anniversary this year. That's not so young. The Adobe Guadalupe we had at Laja was a 1994. Fri Sep 14 12:04:41 -0700 2007 2941934 11369 Robert Lauriston 8 2942677 L.A. Cetto's Nebbiolo blend is quite nice. I mentioned the PS above. IMO, these two are their best wines. Monte Xanic's Aglianico-Nebbiolo blend is also enjoyable -- well balanced and beautifully structured. Another standout among the Guadalupe Valley tasting: the '05 Roganto Tempranillo. Fri Sep 14 15:01:32 -0700 2007 2941463 18222 maria lorraine 4 2940728 my understanding is that there is a significant, i've been told up to 25%, tax imposed on wine by the Mexican government. the beer producers wanted a price advantage and got it, or so I've been told... Fri Sep 14 06:44:49 -0700 2007 2939696 31795 ibstatguy 5 2941008 During the financial debacle of 1994/1995.... Mexico (which embarrasingly has the 2nd lowest taxes in the new world after Haiti)... enacted a luxury retail tax in that magnitude. I still remember how tequila was cheaper at Costco & Trader Joe's than just about anywhere in Mexico. Now I have seen Tequila prices return to normalcy there (of course they got more expensive here with the weakening dollar)... so I am thinking the luxury tax was phased out, or reduced. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the very powerful beer industry did pull something like that.... as they will stoop to very low levels (as demostrated when they waged sociocultural war on Pulque in the first half of the 1900s). Fri Sep 14 08:11:57 -0700 2007 2940728 42572 Eat_Nopal 6 2941405 In Guadalajara, tequila's much cheaper at Costco or Sam's Club than anywhere else. Way cheaper than in the US. On the other hand, at the shop with the biggest selection, some high-end tequilas are more expensive than in the US. Mexico's taxes are low because the government gets revenues from the oil monopoly. Fri Sep 14 09:44:33 -0700 2007 2941008 11369 Robert Lauriston 7 4895988 Taxes on wine are not low in Mexico............nor are they on Tequila. Do you realize that wine pays 25% to 30% alcohol tax to the Mexican government and 50% on Tequila......Duty on imports can be from 0 to 30% and the sales tax in Mexico is 15%...........They tax on everything here. You really have to know the ins and outs of the spirits, wine and beer industry to know why and what for the prices are as they are........... Mon Jul 27 21:45:29 -0700 2009 2941405 192955 wineman3 6 4895989 Nothing has been reduced as far as alcohol taxs in Mexico since 1988. Mon Jul 27 21:46:37 -0700 2009 2941008 192955 wineman3 5 4895991 Even Mexican wines pay 25% alcohol tax here...............read the General Agreement on trades and tarifs which Mexico is a part of. Mon Jul 27 21:47:48 -0700 2009 2940728 192955 wineman3 4 4895995 Ditto Mon Jul 27 21:52:12 -0700 2009 2939696 192955 wineman3 3 2939970 Hell Baja Wines aren't easily found in Baja either! A few trips back I made a trip to Enseneda without hitting the local mega marts or wine shops thinking the prices & selections would be better in of Tijuana's suburbs. BIG Mistake.... yeah selection was better, but only for French & Spanish wines.... all they had were the Domecq & Cetto vinos ordinarios. Thu Sep 13 19:21:47 -0700 2007 2939656 42572 Eat_Nopal 3 2941336 >>> There are import laws in place to protect the CA wine industry. <<< Care to cite specifics? I know of none that would apply to what you are suggesting. >>> Mexican wines are not easily found in San Diego and CA. <<< They aren't that easy to find in Mexico! (Especially once you get out of Mexico City or the Valle de Guadalupe.) Beer is everywhere, but every restaurant I have ever been in . . . IF they have wine . . . have far moreselections from Chile and Argentina than they do from Mexico itself. Fri Sep 14 09:28:02 -0700 2007 2939656 28122 zin1953 4 2941387 Chilean wine in particular.... Fri Sep 14 09:41:04 -0700 2007 2941336 42572 Eat_Nopal 4 4875557 Forgive my tardiness in responding to this question. I only just stumbled on Chowhound while building a list of current Baja California wineries (sixty so far and still not finished). Most Baja winemakers of my acquaintance complain that NAFTA did not bring them the open borders they were expecting. Customs duties are only a small part of the equation, as they have pointed out to me -- evidently, it is now more expensive to satisfy the NAFTA paperwork requirements than it was to pay the duty. Add to that the unequal market position. In the Mexican market, wine is what polo ponies are to the U.S. -- little more than an upper-class affectation. The rich family in every telenovela (soap opera) pours red wine from Bordeaux bottles for the fish course. The middle class, which writes these telenovelas, has no contact with wine. So Mexican wines are made by and for people with lots of money to throw around. The market for super-premium wine in the U.S., on the other hand, rides the coattails of the premium and ordinary markets. Baja has very little of that to offer. Mexican wines are found in Mexico but only where the upper class is also found. The top ten wineries, at least, have sales agents in Guadalajara, Puebla, Monterrey, Acapulco, Cuernavaca, Cancún ... here in Tijuana you can get a good thirty esoteric labels at GSalinas so long as you bring your letter of credit with you. Finding Mexican wines in the U.S. really depends on whether the winery works with a U.S. distributor or not. Getting the stuff through Customs is just a protectionist hurdle: the real concern all wineries face is in getting their stock onto foreign shelves. Cetto has been in the U.S. for ages, Santo Tomás is probably still allied with Mondavi, and Viña Liceaga [VEE-nyah lee-SAY-ah-gah] is handled by Kodiak Imports in San Diego, douglas(at)kodiakimports(dot)com. That's off the top of my head; I expect Xanic, Camou, and Domecq are also available. The trick to getting this wine is in identifying the importer. Then you call the importer and ask about the retail outlets in your area. There probably will not be any. If not, ask them what their sales minimum is and whether a case can be mixed. Then you go to your favorite local retail outlet and ask them to buy you that amount cash upfront. You might pique the wine shop's interest enough to where they'll consider stocking some or even inviting you in to host a Mexican tasting night. The reason why restaurants here in Mexico have more Chilean wines on their lists than Mexican wines is because of the pricing. Today's Chilean wines are the work of Fritz Maytag (Anchor Steam Beer), who was in Chile in the seventies and eighties creating an industry to serve a more oenophilic culture. Restaurants in oenophilic cultures tend to sell twenty times more house wine than fancy bottles and Maytag made sure Chile could supply a lot of respectable house wine. Guadalupe Valley is almost all fancy bottles. I hope I have been able to answer your questions satisfactorily. And that you're still around to read this. Mon Jul 20 17:05:24 -0700 2009 2941336 1093915 Xolotl 5 4895981 Regarding what you say about NAFTA I disagree. It is no more difficult to import wine from Mexico to the US as it is Italy, France, Spain or any other country for that matter. Labels do have to be registered with the BATF but they always have been for everyone.........basically the wineries from Mexico have to find an importer in the US to import their wine and once the label registration is done thats it. Most Mexican botique wineries do not have the resources to go to the states and promote their wine let alone in Mexico or find importers who are willing to buy inventory on a product that may or may not sell. You also have to have an importer in Mexico to import wine just as in the States. The taxes that were in place before NAFTA are the same and also the same for all countries exporting to the US. There never have been dutys on wine from Mexico to the US..........All wine even US wine pays Federal Excise tax based upon the alcohol volume of the wine which about $3.20 US per case what ever the cost of the wine be it either Chateau Lafite or a $20.00 US case of wine from Chile. However in Mexico right now there is a 20% duty on wine coming in from the US plus an alcohol tax of 25% up to 14 degrees alcohol and 30% if it is over 14% alcohol plus sales tax of 15% all of these taxes are based upon the price per case of the wine not alcohol volume. So regarding protectionism it is not in favor of Imports into Mexico even with NAFTA period. The biggest problem for Mexican wineries sending wine to the US is three fold........first the lack of knowledge by Americans of Mexican wine, even the importer-distributors do not understand the industry here which with the new boom of botique wineries in Mexico is a 'Mexican' entity at this point. Second the lack of quantity in cases by any of the botique wineries to have enough to export, except maybe Xanic, Casa Madero or Santo Tomas. Third the price quality is out of balance on many of the botique wines from Mexico. Mon Jul 27 21:40:45 -0700 2009 4875557 192955 wineman3 6 4902045 Agreed. Wed Jul 29 19:24:39 -0700 2009 4895981 28122 zin1953 6 4902091 I also agree with this.On your third point, it is also the Mexican government that jacks that price up with their high taxes on the wine makers which make up about 35% or more of the retail price. Wed Jul 29 19:45:16 -0700 2009 4895981 128722 streetgourmetla 1 2939616 In my experience the best Mexican wines are made by Monte Xanic from the Guadalupe Valley. I've had Camou wines but wasn't impressed with them...I haven't had Laja, but but there are some small wineries in the G. Valley that seem to be developing fast and becoming more sophisticated every year, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are now others in the Monte Xanic mold. Time to make a pass through that area again.... Thu Sep 13 17:20:18 -0700 2007 2932540 23430 Mr. Cookie 2 2939637 There are definitely better wineries than Monte Xanic in the Guadalupe Valley these days. Laja's not a winery, it's a restaurant with a great wine list. Thu Sep 13 17:26:10 -0700 2007 2939616 11369 Robert Lauriston 3 2942055 Like I said, it's been too long since I've made a pass thru that area...Is the food at Laja any good? My expectations are always pretty low when I drink Mexican wines. But I had a Monte Xanic white -- probably a sauvignon blanc -- last year that was pretty good. Mexican reds have pretty much left me cold across the board. Fri Sep 14 12:13:37 -0700 2007 2939637 23430 Mr. Cookie 4 2942184 Our meal at Laja was great. http://www.chowhound.com/topics/308726#2182992 Fri Sep 14 12:43:25 -0700 2007 2942055 11369 Robert Lauriston 3 4886273 Agreed Camou and Monte Xanic are not important wines anymore.Currently there are 50 producers and about 150 labels currently in the Valle de Guadalupe. Try JC Bravo's Carignan, Casa de Piedra, Vinesterra's Pedregal, Paralelo,El Porvenir's Sauvignan Blanc, Mogor Badan, Pijoan, EMEVE is nice, Tres Valles, Filidith, Cavas Valmar, Roganto, and so many more. Go to the G. Salinas wine shop in Zona Rio, Tijuana and get a look at a whole lot of bottles you never heard of, and the ones I've mentioned here. In Ensenada, Benito Molina's restaurants Muelle Tres and Manzanilla always have great selections on hand. The former Rincon del Parque restaurant in Ensenada now run by Gloria D'Acosta has a great wine shop, too, right by Parque Revolucion. The restaurants in the Gastronomic Zone in Tijuana all have pretty good wine lists especially Villa Saverios, La Querencia, and Cheripan. L.A. Cetto has some value wines that are on most menus, but look beyond the Domecq's, Cetto's, and Tomas', or the Xanic's and Camou's.Old news.I like to get a bottle off the lists at G. Salinas and pay the corkage. If you really want to get a handle on the many wines now being produced. Fri Jul 24 01:01:23 -0700 2009 2939637 128722 streetgourmetla 4 4895954 I do not think anyone should look beyond wines such as Monte Xanic as old......in fact compared to the others that streetgoumelta mentions Valmar is older than Xanic as far as how long it has been around. Additionaly the prices of most of those that are mentioned are not and I repeat not worth the money that you pay for them. But making a broad statement that Monte Xanic is not an important wine because it has been around since longer than most is not correct. It is a better value than Piedra, Badan, Pijoan, Roganto and so many more. Best bang for the buck does not even come from Valle de Guadalupe but from the oldest winery in the Americas..........Casa Madero from Parras Valley started in 1597.........so just because its new and expensive does not always mean its good product or good value. I have been in the wine business for 30 yearrs and 20 of it in Mexico and if it were not for Monte Xanic a lot of others would not be around. Mon Jul 27 21:10:55 -0700 2009 4886273 192955 wineman3 5 4896138 Wasn't talking about the age of wineries, specifically. In the 80's Monte Xanic and Chateau Camou were breakout wineries, but there are a lot more now. I enjoy the wines I'm tasting as of late much more that the Monte Xanic and Camou wines, even the older Valmar. I'm well aware of the ages of the wineries in Baja and have been to just about every place that serves wine in the Valle. A glass of El Porvenir's sauvignon blanc at Muelle Tres is pretty inexpensive. I said nothing about it being good because it's expensive. I respect Camou and Xanic tremendously, and yes, they startes the whole boutique winery thing, there are just so many great wines available now that people should check out. I'm talking about wine lists that have these other wines, and not just the usual suspects. I like wines from Cetto, S. Tomas,Xanic, Camou,and Domecq(at times). I love the semillon from Casa Madero.I like Piedra better that Xanic or Camou though, regardless of a few bucks more. Casa Madero isn't available so much in Baja, I usually get it in Mexico City, but best buys are not always my primary concern. But, you're right, the mid-size and larger wineries deliver more values, but I'll still be pouring that J.C. Bravo. The by the glass prices in Ensenada for these wines is quite reasonable. Have you been down lately? Tue Jul 28 00:23:20 -0700 2009 4895954 128722 streetgourmetla 1 4895994 e-mail daniel.milmo@casamadero.com.mx He is the owner, speaks and writes English and will be glad to tell you where to buy in the states. It is there. Mon Jul 27 21:49:44 -0700 2009 2932540 192955 wineman3