440104 Tue Sep 11 01:38:06 -0700 2007 36 34 Wine 0 2929539 I have just been given some freshly caught Carp which we are serving steamed with boiled poatoes and extra virgin olive oil (maybe also some home made mayonaise) i.e.: light enough not to hide the delicate taste. How do I wine-pair this delicate dish without being boring? Tue Sep 11 01:38:06 -0700 2007 112846 Aosta 1 2930378 Tempier Bandol rosé Billecart-Salmon Champagne Brut Rosé René Muré Vin d'Alsace pinot blanc "Tradition" or similar first-rate Alsatian p.b. Tue Sep 11 08:58:21 -0700 2007 2929539 11369 Robert Lauriston 1 2930826 I had a similar preparation in Desenzano with fresh carp from Lago di Garda; we drank Lugana with the dish and it worked exceptionally well. If you can't find Lugana you could substitute with Soave. I also think Cassis blanc might be nice with the dish. Tue Sep 11 10:35:11 -0700 2007 2929539 97345 Vinny Barbaresco 2 2931402 If you can find a bottle that wasn't oxidized during shipment. Tue Sep 11 12:52:27 -0700 2007 2930826 11369 Robert Lauriston 3 2931432 Lugana or Cassis? I had a lovely bottle of 2005 Cassis last week. Tue Sep 11 12:58:02 -0700 2007 2931402 97345 Vinny Barbaresco 4 2931922 Any of the three. Tue Sep 11 14:43:43 -0700 2007 2931432 11369 Robert Lauriston 5 2932026 As I mentioned, had I bottle of Domaine du Bagnol Cassis blanc last week and the wine was anything but oxidized. There's also plenty of really fresh 2006 Italian white wine out there right now, IMO, the likelyhood of finding a really good bottle of Lugana or Soave is pretty high. Tue Sep 11 15:11:14 -0700 2007 2931922 97345 Vinny Barbaresco 6 2932130 May be a regional thing. Oxidation is a chronic problem with French and Italian whites here in California. A few distributors are reliable. Tue Sep 11 15:40:05 -0700 2007 2932026 11369 Robert Lauriston 7 2932322 Chronic? Truly, Robert? This is completely counter to my experience -- and about half the wines I drink are French or Italian. Would you share the names of the wines that were oxidized? Were the wines stored correctly? Were the corks in good condition? Tue Sep 11 16:32:40 -0700 2007 2932130 18222 maria lorraine 8 2932886 In Missouri Carp are "trash" fish, is there a good way to prepare them? Tue Sep 11 19:54:09 -0700 2007 2932322 53854 WyCo 9 2933297 In Washington also they are regarded as an inedible by-catch when we were trying to get catfish. Mom would plant them in her rose garden. Tue Sep 11 23:38:46 -0700 2007 2932886 13619 Sharuf 8 2933065 ML - there was recently quite a bit of chatter about oxidized white burgundies on the ebob/squires board. as I recall, Colin Deleger was one of the ones mentioned, frequently. Tue Sep 11 21:15:25 -0700 2007 2932322 31795 ibstatguy 9 2933350 Thanks for the heads up. What caused the oxidation? Too little sulfuring, rushed or incomplete ML fermentation, not enough phenols (over-filtering), corks, what? Clive Coates says the corks, in Decanter, Feb. 21, 2007...but my guess is that's it's a combo of the first three -- winemaking errors -- rather than storage or stoppage problems. Did the oxidation happen outside Burgundy? And getting back to Robert's statement, could the oxidation of French and Italian wines accurately be termed chronic? What is the overall incidence, not just that in Burgundy? Wed Sep 12 01:00:41 -0700 2007 2933065 18222 maria lorraine 10 2934186 The usual way wine gets oxidized is that someone ships it in non-temperature-controlled containers and it sits in the summer heat for a month. Not oxidized to the point of madierization but enough that all varietal character is stripped. I can't think of any particular bottles offhand but I've encountered hundreds in the 20 years since I moved back from Italy and noticed that none of the Italian white wines in California tasted like they did there. Things have improved in recent years as more importers have switched to temperature-controlled containers. Wed Sep 12 09:03:40 -0700 2007 2933350 11369 Robert Lauriston 11 2934721 Oxidation can occur while making wine, first, by inferior (not tainted) corks, and last, by poor storage conditions. When a good number of wines across a particular vintage are oxidized, and the wineries have different importers, I look first to the winemaking. In this case, the practices of using little or no sulfur, rushing the ML fermentation and over-filtering were typical winemaking practices in Burgundy in 1996-2002. More recent vintages don't seem to have the same percentage of oxidation, and a few reviewers, in part, attribute this to the increased use of sulfur. Wed Sep 12 11:13:26 -0700 2007 2934186 18222 maria lorraine 12 2934746 Like I said, I first noticed this when comparing wines I knew well in Italy with the same wines in the California. Pretty much eliminates winemaking as the culprit. I'm quite sure the problem is bad shipping practices. Here's a Wine Business Monthly article on the subject: http://www.winebusiness.com/html/MonthlyArticle.cfm?Aid=52630&issueId=52619 Wed Sep 12 11:22:56 -0700 2007 2934721 11369 Robert Lauriston 13 2934919 Thanks for the link. I read it. From the articles I read on the oxidation of white Burgundies, the cause is almost certainly winemaking. Wed Sep 12 12:01:43 -0700 2007 2934746 18222 maria lorraine 1 2933168 A great chardonnay is anything but boring. Given the mayo, go with your favorite chardonnay and it will be fine. To improve the overall dish, GRILL it, (chardonnay loves smoke), and add at least a hint of garlic to the mayo. Serve with a side of grilled veggies.... Enjoy Tue Sep 11 22:00:50 -0700 2007 2929539 42549 Chicago Mike 2 2933227 Mike, I'd appreciate your being more specific when you recommend chardonnay. As there are so many styles of chardonnay, these days recommending a varietal isn't quite enough -- you must often also recommend a style. Do you mean unoaked, lightly oaked or full-oaked Chard, slight to medium to heavy ML, sur lie or not? Please also describe the fruit character and give examples of specific wineries and wines, please. Tue Sep 11 22:32:26 -0700 2007 2933168 18222 maria lorraine 3 2933253 My answer to that is "the best bottle that your wine vendor(s) have available in your price range"... I could say I prefer this style from this winery or that, but what good is it if that isn't available from their vendor?? IMO the matching of chardonnay is very palate-specific. I personally don't mind a big chardonnay, buttery, oaky, whatever, doesn't bother me a bit as long as the fruit is there and it's a well-made wine.... and I find that the connection to a given food generally holds across the spectrum, but again this is probably palate-specific. If the poster prefers a more delicate style or a bigger style or anything in between, IMO they will all work with this dish.... This all said, I might lean to a more delicate style for this dish but I'd rather have a great bottle of a bigger chardonnay than a mediocre bottle of a delicate one, and vice-versa, anyday. Tue Sep 11 22:52:33 -0700 2007 2933227 42549 Chicago Mike 4 2933270 Chardonnays vary widely in style, and an unoaked one with pair with different foods than a full-ML, oaked one. As you well know. I believe your recommendations about Chardonnay would be more useful if you would recommend a style, and a specific winery/wine. The OP can always take the suggestion to the store and ask "Do you have this wine, or one like it?". Thank you for your recommendation in the above post of a delicate style of Chardonnay. That's what I mean. Tue Sep 11 23:08:24 -0700 2007 2933253 18222 maria lorraine 5 2933272 good idea.... "one like it" is what they're going to be getting 95% of the time, especially in smaller cities and towns. Tue Sep 11 23:09:37 -0700 2007 2933270 42549 Chicago Mike 6 2934219 Few places in the U.S. are still so deprived that they have only one style of chardonnay. In another topic, Aosta mentioned Argentine torrontes, New Zealand sauvignon blanc, Chilean chardonnay, and Entre-Deux-Mers, so presumably a variety of styles of chardonnay are on offer to pair with the carp. Wed Sep 12 09:11:28 -0700 2007 2933272 11369 Robert Lauriston 2 2933238 "To improve the overall dish, GRILL it, (chardonnay loves smoke), and add at least a hint of garlic to the mayo. Serve with a side of grilled veggies.... " The OP requested possible wine matches for steamed carp w/ boiled potatoes...not grilled carp with garlic mayo and grilled vegetables. What wine would you suggest with the dish as the OP is preparing it? Tue Sep 11 22:38:22 -0700 2007 2933168 97345 Vinny Barbaresco 3 2933246 Well I guess I cued more off the word "boring"... how do I avoid boring, the poster asked.... So.... when I see ways to improve the cooking and, to borrow a phrase from Charlie Trotter, "bring the wine to the food" I don't hesitate to point it out. If it doesn't help the current poster, IMO it may help future posters contemplating the same principal ingredient. How difficult can it be to grill this rather than steam it ?? But, if they want to go with the steam, my primary recommendation would be the same... Chardonnay, with hint of garlic added to the mayo. Tue Sep 11 22:45:44 -0700 2007 2933238 42549 Chicago Mike 4 2933251 FWIW, Carp is not a fish that lends itself to grilling; roasting, steaming, braising, and frying, grinding it for quenelles or gefilte fish are all tried and true preparations. IMO, one should stay within the parameters of the OP's query. Tue Sep 11 22:51:56 -0700 2007 2933246 97345 Vinny Barbaresco 5 2933257 you can grill / smoke carp on cedar (or on oiled pitas for that matter) if you don't want to put it directly on the grill iron, works great. Tue Sep 11 23:00:29 -0700 2007 2933251 42549 Chicago Mike 6 2933293 FWIW, planking is neither grilling or smoking; and IMO,cedar planked carp does not sound very appetizing regardless of the the wine or accoutrements. Tue Sep 11 23:33:14 -0700 2007 2933257 97345 Vinny Barbaresco 7 2935817 All sorts of pans & planks can be used in a grill or smoker... just as they can be used in an oven or any other cooking device. Carp is one of the most widely eaten fish in the world, you just have to do more cleaning with it than most fish, and that's the primary source of the predjudice against it... Wed Sep 12 15:35:37 -0700 2007 2933293 42549 Chicago Mike 4 2933258 Thank you, in your last paragraph, for respecting the OP's preparation guidelines. The OP may not have a grill, or may not want the added heft of flavor that grilling lends -- the OP's interest is in preserving the fish's delicacy. The OP used "boring" in reference to the wine, not the food. Tue Sep 11 23:00:31 -0700 2007 2933246 18222 maria lorraine 5 2933346 In the event the Carp was cooking cooked in 2 ways (accompanied by a crisp Pinot Grigio from the Italian Alps which worked fine) : 1) steamed over a mix of wine, water and herbs along with sliced young potatoes and carrots and some some garden "Sedano" (in English it is Celery I think). The celery remained semi-crisp but sucked up on the juicy wine flavours. 2) Pan Grilled with some fresh tomatoes. We accompanied with a drizzle of Planeta's best olive oil and for those who wanted it, a fresh mayo mixed with a few spoonfulls of whole grain mustard. In conclusion, I preffered the steamed version for sheer delicacy and tenderness of the flesh. Wed Sep 12 00:46:19 -0700 2007 2933258 112846 Aosta 1 2935764 I wish you luck with the carp. I never had a good carp after moving from Poland to US - no matter how fresh it was. In Poland carp is a traditional Christmas Eve meal and there are countles ways to serve it. The polish carp is farmed carp, specially fed. But frankly I found there are so many phenomenal seafood choice in the US that I don't miss a polish carp. Wed Sep 12 15:23:26 -0700 2007 2929539 118541 olasek 2 2935806 I think Aosta is in Italy? Wed Sep 12 15:33:33 -0700 2007 2935764 11369 Robert Lauriston 3 2935922 That would indeed change things. Wed Sep 12 16:08:03 -0700 2007 2935806 118541 olasek 4 2936829 For some reason, I'm finding this whole thread very amusing now. It turns out that Aosta is most likely from Northern Italy, and he didn't share that with us when asking for wine recs. Hah! And we have little idea of what's available to him. I also find it absurdly funny for any of us to tell an Italian how to cook! Maybe that's just me. I do chuckle a lot -- especially at ironies. Wed Sep 12 23:05:15 -0700 2007 2935922 18222 maria lorraine 5 2936885 I should explain: I am of Anglo/French descent, married to an Italian and living in Aosta (North-Western Tip of Italy, near the Mont Blanc). I started reading and participating on this board because I feel that one of the positive aspect of our globalized world is easy access to other cultures, ideas and cooking methods. Just because Italians take food seriously, should not mean they have nothing to learn from others (far from it). As I travel and taste around the world I realize the variety available.... and the US has a lot of amazing things to offer (I have found that some of greatest "food fun" to be had is from the little shops and delis dotted around Manhattan). Wine is another example of the same concept: I want to discover what everyone else is getting up to.... maybe they know something I don't.....maybe they're tasting something new and mind-blowing. ....isn't that why we are all here? Thu Sep 13 00:01:03 -0700 2007 2936829 112846 Aosta 6 2936911 Lovely. Thu Sep 13 00:23:52 -0700 2007 2936885 18222 maria lorraine