439691 Sun Sep 09 19:25:10 -0700 2007 20 34 Wine 0 2925463 Had a glass of 2005 Domaine Sancy Juliénas tonight with dinner, and it tasted really curious. I haven't had this particular wine before, but I've had other beaujolais cru and this one tasted off in a strange way. Here's what I tasted and smelled: 1) *really* strong barnyard-y smell. I don't mind a little of this in my wine, but this was out of control. There was a bit of fruit in there too, but it was very overwhelmed. 2) very sharp unpleasant acidic flavor on the front area of the tongue (near the tip) that blocked almost all other flavors out entirely. 3) Color was fine. We tried decanting it and that didn't help. If anything, the barnyardy smell just got worse. It didn't smell musty or have any "wet dog" smells or flavors. Does anyone know what was wrong with it? Or is it just a bad bottle? ETA - I encountered this same quality recently with a languedoc red wine and couldn't quite place it then either. In that case, I HAD had the same wine before and knew there was absolutely something off with the particular bottle. Sun Sep 09 19:25:10 -0700 2007 16011 oolah 1 2925490 its now vinegar..... Sun Sep 09 19:38:57 -0700 2007 2925463 110043 papachef 1 2925542 1. Brett, or Bretannomyces. Classic barnyard smell. Read more about it at http://www.chowhound.com/topics/373505. Lots of info there on Brett. 2. My guess is VA, or volative acidity. Did it smell like vinegar? Sun Sep 09 19:59:36 -0700 2007 2925463 96640 justalittlemoreplease 2 2925558 Yes, brett would explain the odor. VA, on the other hand, doesn't usually smell like vinegar so much as acetone or nail polish remover. Sun Sep 09 20:04:04 -0700 2007 2925542 10520 carswell 3 2925635 No acetone or nail polish smell either, so more evidence indicating brett. I'm thinking now that brett is something that only works in big earthy wines, and clearly not so well on medium-bodied fruity wines like a beaujolais. It's too late for this one, since we ended up drinking most of it trying to figure out just what the heck was wrong with it (sort of a "this is so gross -- you have to try this!!!" moment), but can you generally return a bottle with this kind of flaw? I live in NY if that makes a difference. Sun Sep 09 20:34:39 -0700 2007 2925558 16011 oolah 4 2926173 "I'm thinking now that brett is something that only works in big earthy wines, and clearly not so well on medium-bodied fruity wines like a beaujolais." Whether it works or not is probably a question of personal preference but it's certainly a common feature -- some would say part of the charm -- of lots of light reds. Many of the Jura's best Poulsard and Trousseau-based reds -- light enough that some call them "corail" or coral coloured -- are bretty, especially those from organic or biodynamic producers like Overnoy. "can you generally return a bottle with this kind of flaw" Don't know about NYC, where the one time I returned a bottle I encountered a lot of resistance (and there was also Chris Coad's dreadful experience with Garnet), but you can here in Quebec. And, in theory, you should be entitled to return any flawed product, including wine. Mon Sep 10 06:58:16 -0700 2007 2925635 10520 carswell 5 2926303 Never had those two wines you mention. I'll look out for them and give them a shot. I bought the wine at a pretty reputable shop, so I'll just mention it next time I drop in and see what they say. Another random question: since brett is apparently some kind of microscopic critter, do I need to disinfect my glasses and decanter to prevent other wines from getting ruined? Or is the critter long gone by the time it reaches my glass? Again, many thanks Mon Sep 10 07:47:23 -0700 2007 2926173 16011 oolah 6 2926899 Am unaware whether brett continues to live in wine after bottling. In any case, it won't infect your glasses or decanter (even in wineries the "areas that provide suitable niches ... are must lines, dirty crush equipment, barrels, or any tank or transfer line that is not cleaned effectively" -Oxford). Just clean them as per usual and rinse well with very hot water. Mon Sep 10 10:14:41 -0700 2007 2926303 10520 carswell 4 2928433 I just returned an Acacia Carneros Chard to Costco, because of brett. Three bottles were good, and one with a fairly heavy bit of brett. No questions asked, just full credit. I added four more Acacia Chards to the cart, and so far, three have been OK. Still have one left. Because of the time lag, these were most likely out of different cases, and maybe the first 4 bottles were too. Hunt Mon Sep 10 16:32:43 -0700 2007 2925635 11329 Bill Hunt 5 2929245 >> because of brett and what is brett in application to wine, pardon me asking this ... Mon Sep 10 21:00:40 -0700 2007 2928433 118541 olasek 6 2929947 Brettanomyces is a form of yeast that is commonly and traditionally thought of as a"spoilage organism." It is indigenous to most (if not all) wine-producing regions, and can result in ruining some truly great wines. There are, however, many different strains of Brett, and blind tests have shown that some strains actually "improve" the wine (in blind, controlled, sensory-evaluation tastings). Brett is also essential to making lambic beers, for example. To learn more, you may want to check out British wine writer Jamie Goode's website: http://www.wineanorak.com/brettanomyces.htm Tue Sep 11 07:12:27 -0700 2007 2929245 28122 zin1953 7 2930627 Chateau Rayas often makes wines that are bretty in a good way. Tue Sep 11 09:54:35 -0700 2007 2929947 11369 Robert Lauriston 5 2939756 Some people love brett and other loathe it. Count me among the latter and Robert Parker among the former. Thu Sep 13 18:09:57 -0700 2007 2928433 113095 jock 6 2939793 My wife and I are split 50-50, though not to the extremes, that you cite. Given the right wine, a little can be a positive for me. My wife, however can tolerate just a touch (again in the right wine), but would choose to not have any. Not quite love/hate, but shows how different palates respond to it. We both loathe TCA though, and both are sensitive to its presence - I, much more so, than she. Hunt Thu Sep 13 18:21:21 -0700 2007 2939756 11329 Bill Hunt 6 2944587 I wouldn't say I love brett. I've had wines that it spoiled, and wines that a slight amount of brettiness enhanced. I suspect the same is true for anyone who doesn't just flat-out hate the flavor. Sat Sep 15 13:17:36 -0700 2007 2939756 11369 Robert Lauriston 3 2925754 VA can smell like many things -- vinegar and pickle juice among them but also acetone or nail polish remover. "Volatile acidity refers to the steam distillable acids present in wine, primarily acetic acid but also lactic, formic, butyric, and propionic acids. ... The production of acetic acid will result in the concomitant formation of other, sometimes unpleasant, aroma compounds (see ethyl acetate [nail polish remover] and acetaldehyde) ... "Yeast found in the vineyard—Kloeckera, Hansenula, and Metschnikowia—are able to produce large amounts of acetic acid and ethyl acetate early in a fermentation, but this generally occurs only with damaged grapes. This conversion can be prevented by the addition of sulfites at crush. Most lactic acid bacteria will produce acetic acid from glucose if they are present when there is still significant amounts of sugar. Of wine yeast, Saccharomyces strains will produce varying amounts, while Brettanomyces is a strong producer of acetic acid." http://waterhouse.ucdavis.edu/winecomp/va.htm "All [acetic acid bacteria] have one thing in common. They are aerobic bacteria, needing lots of oxygen to proliferate. They are microscopic single celled critters which have enzymes embedded in their cell walls. These enzymes work to oxidise alcohol into the vinegary smelling acetic acid. Other enzymes also convert alcohol, but this time through a complex set of reactions, into the 'solvent like' compound ethyl acetate." http://www.aromadictionary.com/articles/volatileacidity_article.html Sun Sep 09 21:54:46 -0700 2007 2925558 96640 justalittlemoreplease 4 2926149 "VA can smell like many things -- vinegar and pickle juice among them but also acetone or nail polish remover." Interesting. I associate VA with acetone -- a search through my tasting notes (several hundred pages worth) finds not a single reference to vinegar -- but, as a web and reference search will show, the vingear connection is there for many. The Wikipedia's wine fault article even calls it "vinegar taint" (the usual Wikipedia disclaimers apply, of course, especially as the entry also equates acetic acid with VA, an oversimplification). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_fault Will look forward to reading what Goode has to say when I get his book back from the friend I lent it to. Noticed in passing: it appears some of the more trustworthy sources -- the Oxford Companion, for example -- refer to vinegar flavours, not aromas. "Of wine yeast [...] Brettanomyces is a strong producer of acetic acid." Really interesting. I'd often wondered whether there was a correlation since heavily brett-affected wines often seem out of whack in ways other than barnyardy bouquets, acid balance being one of the most common in my experience, but I'd never seen it spelled out so baldly as here (for example, the Oxford's Brettanomyces article doesn't mention the acetic acid connection at all). Thanks for the legwork. Mon Sep 10 06:49:27 -0700 2007 2925754 10520 carswell 5 2926689 I always associate EA with acetone. Mon Sep 10 09:30:52 -0700 2007 2926149 28122 zin1953 5 2939406 It's a learning process for me as well, Carswell. I've read there are many, many strains of Brett, so certainly several strains may be present in a single wine. That would explain your insightful comment that <<<<heavily brett-affected wines often seem out of whack in ways other than barnyardy bouquets, acid balance being one of the most common in my experience.>>> Indeed. Thank you. Thu Sep 13 16:00:15 -0700 2007 2926149 96640 justalittlemoreplease 2 2925584 Thanks. I remember that thread, just didn't put it together. I've encountered some barnyardy wines, particularly Barolos and Rhone wines where it didn't bother me and kind of enhanced the wine. In this case, and in the Languedoc wine, it was just wrong. I just compared the nose with a red wine vinegar I have in my pantry and it's not nearly as pungent as that, so I'm thinking it's brett and not vinegar. I'm sad my wine was ruined, but happy to have learned something new. Sun Sep 09 20:13:28 -0700 2007 2925542 16011 oolah 3 2961686 from what i've learned, brettanomyces produces a number of byproducts when its growing and living in wine that we can smell. if the wine was filtered, most likely all the brett cells are gone, but the byproducts are still around. the byproducts that wine labs usually track and measure in wine are a couple of chemicals abbreviated as 4EP, 4EG. The different proportions of each can have really different smells. But when I smell 4EG alone, it's smoky, almost like liquid smoke. When I smell 4EP alone, it seems more classically barnyard. Though Brett makes acetic acid too and we can measure it, lots of critters make acetic acid, so it's more of a general indicator that something's growing, uh oh. Thu Sep 20 19:25:23 -0700 2007 2925584 10403 StephP