439301 Sat Sep 08 07:03:39 -0700 2007 46 34 Wine 0 2922180 Someone asked me this and I would love to be able to answer them. He is Greek and mentioned that in Greece, it's acceptable to put ice in wine, especially Moschato, to loosen it up and make it less syrupy and sweet. So, what do I tell him? Sat Sep 08 07:03:39 -0700 2007 59561 swissfoodie 1 2922240 >>So, what do I tell him?<< "If it feels good, do it. But be prepared to encounter condescension and even disgust from other diners and drinkers." You might also encourage him not to make a practice of it with more exalted wines. Sat Sep 08 07:47:02 -0700 2007 2922180 10520 carswell 2 2922283 So can I assume from this response that it is never acceptable, regardless of the type of wine? My question was more with regards to the Moschato, and any other examples if there are any, than to the social behaviours I should recommend he engage in. Sat Sep 08 08:06:58 -0700 2007 2922240 59561 swissfoodie 3 2922357 As far as I'm concerned, whatever your friend wants to do with his wine is acceptable. There are no rules governing wine consumption, and when in Rome... However, he should also be aware that many people will look askance at the practice and assume he's a boor for engaging in it. Aside from the occasional cube dropped into a warm glass of white or rosé and fortified/doctored wines like white port, vermouth, sangria and Pineau de Charentes, adding ice to fine wine is virtually unheard of in the west (though it wouldn't surprise me if some people in brutally hot climates, especially in locations without air conditioning, drink inexpensive wines that way). Sat Sep 08 08:46:34 -0700 2007 2922283 10520 carswell 4 2922631 Virtually unheard of? You musn't spend much time in the South in August. We put ice in everything. Just a little. It melts fast anyway. Sat Sep 08 10:59:30 -0700 2007 2922357 116638 southernitalian 4 2922639 All ports are fortified, not just white. Unless it was some kind of white port "spritzer" (common in Porto and not just the port on its own), I would never put ice cubes in good port. Sat Sep 08 11:03:51 -0700 2007 2922357 117743 Luthien 5 2922646 I think carswell meant that those specific fortified / flavored wines are commonly served with ice. Most white port seems intended to be made into spritzers. Sat Sep 08 11:09:05 -0700 2007 2922639 11369 Robert Lauriston 3 2924013 Regarding ice in Moschato, I've skimmed through *The Wines of Greece* and *The Oxford Companion to Wine* and done a cursory Web search all with no results. I also put the question to a Greek sommelier and wine importer here in Montreal, who replied: "Regarding the ice cubes, I think it's simply an easy way (read awful way) to cool down the wine. My theory is that if the Moscato in question needs to be 'loosened' up, I'm not so sure you should be drinking it in the first place! In any case [...] it is far from a 'tradtion' in Greece to do so, or at least no more than putting 7-Up in Retsina and calling it Champagne is (my aunts do this )." Sun Sep 09 07:27:02 -0700 2007 2922283 10520 carswell 4 2924465 Ice wasn't all that common in Greece until recently. Could be a relatively contemporary phenomenon. Sun Sep 09 11:10:56 -0700 2007 2924013 11369 Robert Lauriston 4 2929549 Thanks for your investigation - I really appreciate being able to answer the question for him and myself Tue Sep 11 02:45:09 -0700 2007 2924013 59561 swissfoodie 1 2922537 In biblical times (Roman Empire included) it was considered bad taste not to mix wine with water. Actually, they made special vessels called kraters specifically for the (nowadays sacrilegious!) purpose. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krater Sat Sep 08 10:17:04 -0700 2007 2922180 28703 RicRios 2 2965988 Yes, but Roman wine was more akin to our vinegar. (Another interesting factoid: women weren't allowed -- socially and at one point by decree -- to drink wine for much of Roman history.) In France, today, many parents will dilute wine for older children when introducing them to wine. Sat Sep 22 10:51:25 -0700 2007 2922537 64215 cimui 2 2966865 One of the reasons Roman soldiers mixed wine with water has to do with sound scientific reasoning (i.e.: they were centuries ahead of their time!). No known human pathogen can live in wine. When adding wine to the local water, the soldiers would protect themselves from local water-borne diseases. Sat Sep 22 18:19:47 -0700 2007 2922537 28122 zin1953 1 2922555 I will admit that, like most Americans, as a norm we don't add ice to our wine. I will also admit to adding some ice when necessary: on an airplane, when a summer quaffer has warmed up too much, etc. The biggest detriment of adding ice to chill the wine, is that as the wine cools, it becomes watered-down thus diluting the flavor. Because it is usually not a fine wine that gets the ice, it is an acceptable trade-off. Sat Sep 08 10:25:16 -0700 2007 2922180 78406 scrappydog 1 2922573 I regularly put an ice cube or two in red wine if it's served too warm (an unfortunately common problem in restaurants these days). The dilution's too slight to have a significant effect on the flavor. For a whole bottle I'll sometimes ask for an ice bucket. A simple syrupy-sweet muscat vin doux, I see no problem in adding ice or a splash of water. Wine snobs who would look down on that will already be turning their fool noses up at the wine (delicious in its unpretentious way). A fancy dessert wine such as a Sauterne, TBA riesling, or Tokaji Essencia, now that's another story. But again, if it were served too warm, I wouldn't hesitate to add an ice cube or two. Sat Sep 08 10:34:21 -0700 2007 2922180 11369 Robert Lauriston 2 2922634 Isn't this what they call a wine spritzer? I have seen it done when i've been out at bars. Sat Sep 08 11:01:26 -0700 2007 2922573 29331 pancake 3 2922650 A wine spritzer is wine with soda. I'm talking about just adjusting the wine myself at the table, typically with considerably less water. Sat Sep 08 11:11:10 -0700 2007 2922634 11369 Robert Lauriston 2 2965981 "I regularly put an ice cube or two in red wine if it's served too warm (an unfortunately common problem in restaurants these days). The dilution's too slight to have a significant effect on the flavor." Me, too. It drives me batty to have red wine too warm. Even very nice restaurants often serve it the wrong temperature. Sat Sep 22 10:48:43 -0700 2007 2922573 64215 cimui 1 2922781 You see ice put into wine throughout Italy, and in Italian communities in the US, though my guess is it's rarely high-end wine. Sat Sep 08 12:18:13 -0700 2007 2922180 18222 maria lorraine 1 2922793 Does it really matter? If wine with ice added is how your friend ( or anyone else) enjoys drinking it, then it's his business. Anyone looking askance or making comments is only demonstrating their own lack of breeding and courtesy. Sat Sep 08 12:22:29 -0700 2007 2922180 60923 MobyRichard 1 2923672 I do it all the time during summer when we dine outside and wine gets too warm very quickly - red, white, rose. It's especially welcome when confronted with something too high in alcohol Sat Sep 08 22:02:26 -0700 2007 2922180 13690 Sam B 1 2923826 If the wine is too warm then there's no harm in adding icecubes to the glass a minute before you drink it - itwill chill the wine down and won'thav etime to dilute the wine. In the heat of a South Africa summer Ihave been with two different winemakers who have added ice to their glass of red wine.. And there are two winebrands launched this year that are made especially for pouring over ice -- see http://www.frozeonice.com/ and http://www.stormhoek.com/archives/2007/07/couture_launche.php Sun Sep 09 02:46:27 -0700 2007 2922180 114099 Gussie Finknottle 1 2924071 I always put lots of ice in sweet vermouth. I think that if you're in a really hot climate, you might want to put ice in a light, fruity wine to help cool you off. Wouldn't do this with a great wine, of course. Sun Sep 09 07:52:10 -0700 2007 2922180 11995 pikawicca 1 2926201 I don't have a problem with people putting ice in junk wine, the kind of low-grade, sweet, low-alcohol stuff packaged in boxes (though I know better wines are getting the box treament) and big cheap screw-top jugs. These are the wine world's equivalent of generic canned American lager: inexpensive, refreshing, not too strong. It's silly to stand on ceremony with beverages aimed at people who shun pretense or anything that smacks of sophistication. But if I were serving a quality wine to someone with any level of appreciation of the good stuff, I would shun ice. Dilution with water is terrible for good wines: quality wine should be chilled to the proper serving temperature. I don't have a cellar, but I use my refrigerator and a wine thermometer (great little infrared device) to get both my whites and reds to proper serving temperatures. Whites get thoroughly fridge-chilled, then brought out before serving to warm up a bit; reds go in for 20-30 minutes to get down from room to cellar temperature. Mon Sep 10 07:08:28 -0700 2007 2922180 10143 MC Slim JB 2 2926213 This I agree with. My favorite aperitif is Punt e Mes and you definitely need ice cubes in that. Mon Sep 10 07:14:20 -0700 2007 2926201 75332 Gio 2 2926355 And I'm sure the wines you serve are wonderful at exactly the right temperature. But if you were serving a fine wine and a guest asked for ice to put into it, would you comment about the inappropriateness of diluting the wine, thereby making your guest feel gauche and embarrassed? If someone cannot appreciate fine wine without adding ice to it, that's unfortunate, but I think it's still their call. Mon Sep 10 08:02:15 -0700 2007 2926201 60923 MobyRichard 3 2926416 When it is wicked hot outside I often buy an extra bottle of what ever white or rose I am going to serve mix the extra bottle with a little water and make ice cubes out of it. If you don't add enough water the cubes may not set all the way but it does keep the wine cold and doesnt water it down too much. Mon Sep 10 08:17:52 -0700 2007 2926355 96905 bubbles4me 3 2926465 That's a very different question, MobyRichard, one that speaks to the duties of a host rather than the OP's question, which is whether it's acceptable to put ice in wine. As a host, I would grit my teeth and let my guests do what makes them happy, including icing the fine wines I serve them. (I do have limits -- they can't torment my pets or children.) This falls in the same category as my ruefully grilling a ribeye steak to well-done for my auntie, the way she likes it, even though that's borderline tragic to me. Mon Sep 10 08:33:24 -0700 2007 2926355 10143 MC Slim JB 4 2926507 I don't think it is a different question. What else would make a preference, however outside the 'norm' unacceptable but how the preference is received? And yes, it's very much the same as taking an excellent piece of meat past point of grilled excellence because your aunt likes it that way. She may not be getting the best out of the ribeye, just as the OP's Greek friend is possibly not getting the best out of fine wines, but that's now they like it, and as long as they are not imposing their tastes on others, they should not be made to feel uncomfortable about their choices. Mon Sep 10 08:44:20 -0700 2007 2926465 60923 MobyRichard 5 2926743 The Greek muscats in question are syrupy sweet. Some of the ones I've had would definitely be nicer on ice than straight. Mon Sep 10 09:44:01 -0700 2007 2926507 11369 Robert Lauriston 5 2928929 Here's how I read the OP's vs. your question, MobyRichard. The OP's is, "Is it acceptable to add ice to wine?" To this, I answer, "Yes, if it's cheap enough." Yours seems to be, "But what if your guests want to add ice to non-cheap wine?" To this, I answer, "Yes, because it's more important to make my guests feel comfortable than to assert my notion of what's 'proper.'" One is a question of aesthetics, the other of manners. Mon Sep 10 19:04:12 -0700 2007 2926507 10143 MC Slim JB 3 2926732 If I served a fine wine at the right temperature and somebody asked for ice, that would probably be the last time they'd be drinking wine at my house. Mon Sep 10 09:42:00 -0700 2007 2926355 11369 Robert Lauriston 4 2926749 Hmmmm . . . It WOULDN'T be the last time they drank wine at my house, Robert, but it WOULD be the last time I opened wine that was "that good" for them. Mon Sep 10 09:44:59 -0700 2007 2926732 28122 zin1953 4 2926757 Would that include a close friend? A relative? A parent? I'm a strong advocate of a 'eat and eat'/'drink and let drink' policy. Everybody has quirks and corners in their personality that may not fit quite comfortably into all of their relationships, be they familial, romantic, casually social or business. I think it's a much larger solecism to impose personal [culinary] standards on others than to plunk ice cubes into a glass of good wine. The wine is gone, with or without ice, in minutes. The damage done to a relationship, even a casual one, endures far longer. Mon Sep 10 09:45:35 -0700 2007 2926732 60923 MobyRichard 2 2926726 If the wine's served at the right temperature, the issue doesn't come up. Mon Sep 10 09:40:48 -0700 2007 2926201 11369 Robert Lauriston 3 2926742 Agreed. Mon Sep 10 09:43:51 -0700 2007 2926726 28122 zin1953 1 2926687 Tell him to put ice in it . . . Mon Sep 10 09:29:54 -0700 2007 2922180 28122 zin1953 1 2926695 I put ice in cheap wine all the time - just a cube or two. I take a sip first, if I don't like it, add a cube or two of ice to dilute, and chill I guess. Mon Sep 10 09:32:27 -0700 2007 2922180 124908 jeanmarieok 2 2926701 Cheap wine and spritzers, yes, airplane wine and train wine, often. A good red, probably never. Mon Sep 10 09:34:04 -0700 2007 2926695 83766 brendastarlet 1 2926704 I don't usually put ice in wine to dilute it, but sometimes I do like my wine colder than it is at the moment. I bought some of those plastic cubes with water in them - basically, reuseable ice cubes. They're great for wine and made a terrific stocking stuffer for wine drinking family members. Mon Sep 10 09:35:06 -0700 2007 2922180 10669 Amuse Bouches 1 2941314 All but the most expensive restaurants I go to serve Reds too warm and Whites too cold. I don't put ice in the reds, but think it might be a good idea. dave Fri Sep 14 09:22:10 -0700 2007 2922180 119739 davebough 2 2943478 I never use an ice bucket or whites, but often ask for one with reds. Fri Sep 14 21:12:04 -0700 2007 2941314 28122 zin1953 1 2943668 All the Argentines I know regularly put ice in their white wine (only white though). It doesn't matter what type of wine, if it's cold or hot outside. That's just what they do, and I think it is not an uncommon practice in places with warmer climes, as is suggested by the Greek and Italy mentions in this thread. Just to clarify, we're talking a sliver, notn a chunk or multiple cubes. Sat Sep 15 01:33:25 -0700 2007 2922180 126908 iwantmytwodollars 2 2947111 It's not just ice. Adding soda water to wines ( mostly reds, but I've seen it done with whites too ) is a very common practice in Argentina. Sometimes BOTH soda water AND ice go in the mix, particularly in hot days. Sun Sep 16 17:20:46 -0700 2007 2943668 28703 RicRios 1 2964410 You know, to each their own. I found my father drinking my single vineryard Napa Valley Cab in a styrofoam cup with a few ice cubes last Thanksgiving. Then he had the nerve to tell me that it "tasted pretty good". Fri Sep 21 14:54:38 -0700 2007 2922180 124708 mac8111 2 2964499 As long as he enjoyed it, who is harmed? No one, in os far as I can see. Who benefited? Your dad, and that's enough for me to say, "Glad you liked it!" Fri Sep 21 15:26:50 -0700 2007 2964410 28122 zin1953 1 2966264 Lets face it, some wine is just made for hot days and swilling in large quantites, or even mixing with other things (sangria). A nicely made Sancerre or a Cal Pinot with ice in it though? please God, no. Some judgement is called for. Sat Sep 22 13:01:54 -0700 2007 2922180 121371 barclaypie