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An Ex-Montrealer's Guide to Culinary Toronto

c
cybergod Aug 13, 2007 10:34 PM

This post was prompted in part by chemfemme's lament about trying to find a decent baguette in Toronto (Bonjour Brioche: Are You Serious?), but because it seems to be a recurring theme on this board that Montrealers who move to Toronto aren't always sure where to start to begin to get a handle on Toronto as a food city. Here's a first stab at an intro to Toronto food life for those who have recently made the move down the 401...

As an former Montrealer who has lived in Toronto for several years, I can sympathize with other ex-pats’ frustrations in trying to acclimatize to life in Toronto, especially for those who obsess about things like the perfect baguette and the benefits of having one’s one affordable neighbourhood bistro a block or two from your front door (to mention but a couple). But fear not, Toronto’s actually a great food city. It just takes a bit longer to get a feel for the town, in part frankly because it’s so spread out compared to Montreal, and it has so much to offer.

When we first moved to Toronto it took my wife and me several months (and in some ways, even longer) to really get to know our way around the place, but once we found the neighbourhoods we liked to spend time in, and the kinds of stores, bakeries and restaurants we were looking for, we really grew to love this place. (This was in pre-chowhound and early Internet days; today its actually pretty easy to get oriented quickly, what with resources like this site and others.) The other pleasant surprise was discovering all kinds of things that were distinct from what we were used to in Montréal.

Nowadays, our frequent trips back to our old town are still filled with certain requisite culinary hoarding activities (sorry to all the various bagel shops in Toronto, but I stand by my Fairmount and St. Viateur bagels) and restaurant outings (when I die you can blame Martin Picard at Au Pied de Cochon), but for the most part our larder is stocked right here, at home, in Toronto.

For us, the key differences we’ve noticed between Toronto and Montreal in terms of food culture are (I’m generalizing here somewhat, so please, don’t interpret this as a set of hard and fast rules):

* Toronto is more overtly diverse than Montreal, even though both cities are bastions of variety. Despite Toronto’s old reputation as being a stodgy Anglo town, the truth is that it is a place where no one or two linguistic and/or ethnic cultures have remained predominant, and immigration has created an amazingly complex web of cultural diversity. As a result, Toronto has evolved into a city that is actually defined first and foremost by its ethnic and linguistic diversity, even though the overall lingua franca in business and on the street is English. This has had a direct impact on the culinary culture of the city.

* As far as restaurants are concerned, Toronto tends to be really, really good at the low end (i.e., very affordable, very good food at a wide range of non-North American, Non-Western European restaurants) or at the high end (i.e., Susur, Jamie Kennedy on Church, George, Canoe, North 44, Splendido, etc.). For me it’s the in-betweens that Montreal tends to be really exceptional at: neighbourhood bistros with solid wine lists and very affordable prix fixe menus and à la carte prices. There are exceptions to the rule, but generally, even local hangouts in Toronto tend to be more expensive than comparable places in Montreal.

* For food shopping, with the exception of searching for classic Québec things like artisanal cheeses, charcuterie, and game meats at Jean Talon and Atwater Market (could someone please just make a decent pâté, rillettes or cretons here in Toronto?), and Montréal’s glorious range of patisseries, I generally prefer Toronto to Montreal now. (Or perhaps better put, shopping in the two cities is simply a different experience, one not comparable on the basis of some kind of metric.) Again, you often have to travel to multiple locations for it, but the diversity of green groceries and various foodstuffs of specific regional/ethnic cuisines in Toronto are amazing.

* As much as I love the variety here in Toronto, sometimes I miss the “coherence” of Montréal’s culinary and food scenes. When I talk about this, I’m speaking specifically (and, to be clear, not to the exclusion or denigration of other food and cultural traditions of Montréal) of the predominant food culture: the Québeçois culinary tradition, and the infrastructure of artisans and farms that have evolved in Québec to support it. It’s only a theory, but I think that the focus that Montréal’s local food culture has had (and still does) has enabled it to achieve a level of core excellence that perhaps is at a greater level than what Toronto has yet achieved with its broader range of influences. What Montréal does, it does really, really well. In many respects, the foundations of a true local food culture in the GTA have only began to emerge in the last few decades, as local farmers, chefs and vendors have started to develop a regional food economy, and overtly integrate aspects of the city’s ethnic diversity into things like restaurant menus and the choices available to consumers on local store shelves.

* Most things are more expensive in Toronto. Montrealers will get sticker shock comparing the prices of things at local markets here to those in Montreal.

Some recommendations:

1. Breads and Pastries:

You’ll be hard-pressed to find a baguette exactly like those you’ll find at places like Au Pain Doré or Gascogne (especially my all-time favourite, the 36 heures sourdough baguettes), but there are many bakers now in Toronto that make exceptional bread, including proper "french" bread. I’ll second some of the recommendations here: Thuet’s breads are really, really, really good, especially the sourdough boule and his Alsatian-style pumpernickel bread; he does a fairly decent baguette as well in a light-sourdough style. An fyi on the croissant though: the Alsace style is very bread-like, not anything remotely like what you’d probably expect. Almost any bread from Fred’s Bread is excellent: Fred's does a spectacular rendition of the classic Poilane bread, and various other items like foccacias, multigrains, and yes, a decent (but perhaps atypical by Montreal standards) baguette.

As far as baguettes are concerned, I’d say my favourites at the moment are Thuet’s, St. Johns (also made with a subtle sourdough starter) and Brick St. (down in the Distillery District, soon to open also on Logan near Queen). The Brick St. baguette, when it has just come out of the oven, is really awesome. And Ace, the “Premiere Moisson” of TO (in terms of its ubiquity) makes a wide range of very good breads, available almost "anywhere" (supermarkets like Loblaw's, Sun Valley and other stores).

Personally, I’m not a fan of some of the places that others rave about: Bonjour Brioche’s baguette is too white bread-like for me, without a good firm crust; and the quality of their pastry has significantly declined in the last few months for some reason. I’m also not crazy about Célestin’s either: it’s been a bit too dense for my tastes as far as baguettes are concerned (although it is well made; it’s probably more of a personal preference thing).

For pastries (croissant, dessert pastries, etc.) your best bets are probably places that people have already mentioned on Chowhound: Rahier, Cafe Jules Patisserie (on Mt. Pleasant) and Celestin are all very good. Speaking of sticker-shock though, Senses also makes really good patisserie-style desserts, tarts and cakes, but is very, very expensive. For what it’s worth, I’ve never (and most ex-Montrealers I know would agre) understood what people like about Clafouti’s croissants and pain au chocolate: they’re huge and donut-like IMHO. To each their own though, right?

Toronto is are home to wide range of bread and pastry shops from other culture bents, such as Chinese, Portuguese, Italian and various Eastern European bakeries. You'll find them scattered throughout the city, each with its own speciality, each with its own loyal following.

2. Fruits and Veggies:

The very best can be found at the local farmers markets, especially the organic ones: Dufferin on Thursdays; the Riverdale Market in Cabbagetown on Tuesdays; the new Brickworks market on Saturday morning (get there early though for the good stuff), and some things at the North Market at St. Lawrence on Saturdays (although St. Lawrence for green groceries can be a crap-shoot: many vendors simply truck in produce from the food terminal, which is where grocery and corner stores get most of their produce from).

From stores, your best bet is places like Harvest Wagon (sticker-shock again, but honestly, Danny at HW gets the best of the best, whether it’s local or not; I’ve bought things like lettuces or fennel from HW and kept them in my fridge for 2+ weeks and not have them go bad, whereas the same produce from the local grocery store starts to go rotten within a week or less). A second choice would be the St. Lawrence Market, though again, a lot of the produce is not organic and not always sourced from local farms). Third: Whole Foods (albeit, it’s industrial organic, and stocks a lot of foreign market-sourced goods, even when local produce is in season).

3. Dry goods:

Grocery stores for staples and/or St. Lawrence Market and Kensington Market for a mix of staples and harder to find items.

4. Charcuterie and Cheeses:

There are a lot of non-French oriented places all over the city that do things like Portuguese, Eastern European and Italian charcuterie and cheeses, which you’ll must seek out (dig around on the CH Ontario board for recommendations). For somewhere where you can source products from all over (including places like Quebec, New Brunswick and France): the Cheese Boutique, Alex Farms and Chris’ (in the SL market, affiliated with Alex Farms) have the widest selection in the city. The Cheese Boutique is typically a little less expensive than Alex, and is more reliable in terms of quality. Alex has a broad diversity of cheeses, but sometimes they try to sell stuff that frankly is way past its prime. Also, there’s apparently a new place on Dundas near Ossington that does house-made pâtés that a couple of friends who are from France speak highly of. I can’t think of the name off the top of my head. Of special note in terms of local products, despite some idiotic Ontario laws that make it difficult for artisans to produce products of local origin using traditional production methods, there are a few gems:

* Mario Pingue of Niagara Specialty foods makes extraordinary salumi from pork and game meats sourced in Ontario (e.g., a great 24 month prosciutto, various cured sausages). You can find his products at Cumbraes (Cumbraes also carries a couple of Quebec producers’ charcuterie as well).

* Monforte Dairy makes exceptional cheeses from sheep’s and goat’s milk. I really like her fresh sheep’s milk ricotta.

* The Upper Canada Cheese Company in Niagara makes a very good semi soft cheese from Guernsey cow’s milk called Niagara Gold, and also a great ricotta.

Good neighbourhood alternatives for buying charcuterie and cheeses include: All the Best Fine Foods (sticker-shock alert again!), The Leslieville Cheese Market (a small but well chosen selection, with an emphasis on Canadian artisanal cheeses and small production Ontario cured meats), Atelier Thuet and a couple other in the west end (I can’t think of them off the top of my head; we live in Riverdale! Search the board...).

Also, for cured meats from all over the place and things like olive oils, vinegars, etc., Scheffler’s Deli in the SL Market has a very good selection (note: I don’t buy cheese from them, as I think the cheeses are often stored in the same fridges as the charcuterie; you can sometimes actually taste/smell it!).

4. Butchers:

Cumbraes (the very best in Toronto, IMHO), the Healthy Butcher, and organic meats at both the various farmers markets and in the North Market at St. Lawrence. I’m not a fan of most of the butchers in the main St. Lawrence Market building: cheap but not high quality meats, the exception being Whitehouse (they have a good selection of free-range poultry and game meats; I’m not that crazy about their beef though). There are also various ethnic butchers that specialize in things you might not find everywhere, or at as decent a price, i.e.: chinese butchers near Spadina or Gerrard, meat stores on or just off the Danforth, etc.

5. Central American/South American:

Various shops in Kensington Market stock a wide range of products and produce from the Central and Southern Americas. You can also get some wicked fresh made Empanadas and Pupusas (I'm sure I'm spelling that incorrectly) in Kensington, either from store front take out places, or from the back of supply stores, where people congregate on the weekend to buy and eat fresh made, simple Latin American foods.

6. Asian and South East Asian:

If you want to blow your mind, go visit one of the shopping centres or supermarkets in the north end of the city, where the diversity of products from Southeast Asia, China and Japan is mind-blowing: places like T&T have tanks full of live seafood, every kind of sauce, spice and Asian fruits and vegetables imaginable. Search the board here and you’ll find a variety of recommendations. Good downtown/near town alternatives are Chinatown on Spadina and Dundas, and to a lesser degree (if you’re an east-ender) Gerrard St. For Indian and Pakistani goods, Gerrard East past Greenwood to Coxwell is a good choice.

7. A few other local sources of info on food, wine and restaurants to get one started:

* www.torontolife.com
* www.gremolata.com
www.tasteto.com (in fact, if you want to amass a very solid list of TO related food links, Taste TO is a great plae to start
)• the forums on E-Gullet
• wine-specific: www.vintageassessments.com (Michael Vaughan from the National Post), www.vinquebec.com (Marc André Gagnon’s and Alain Brault’s website that contains reviews of wines available at the LCBO and/or the SAQ; en français), www.winesofontario.org, www.tonyaspler.com, www.torontolife.com/blogs/wine (David Lawrason’s blog).

I've just scratched the surface, and no doubt others will have many other great suggestions, but this should give any new-comer to Toronto, especially ex-Montrealers. enough to keep oneself busy for a good while!

  1. satoorisme Oct 30, 2008 09:34 AM

    QUEL MESSAGE! looooooooves it. I am printing this off as of. RIGHT NOW.

    1 Reply
    1. re: satoorisme
      ribboy Oct 30, 2008 05:10 PM

      i really enjoy reading all the ex montrealers posts about where to find good food in toronto...

    2. pinkskittles Jun 9, 2008 11:01 PM

      great post, thanks! i'll check out those croissant options. i visited montreal and fell in love with their croissants, as well as the inexpensive wonderful quebecois cheeses, and i'm left wanting more here in toronto.

      i'm glad you see the sunny side of things! i will check out your suggestions. i love montreal's food. it's like anywhere you go is at least decent. can't say the same for here in toronto. lots of disappointments here.

      i have to disagree about cumbrae's. i don't like them that much, except for the fred's bread baguette (but i don't think i've had montreal baguette). i eat organic meat, so i didn't buy beef from them but i bought chicken and when i was piecing it, i could tell that the quality was quite inferior to the quality of chicken at the healthy butcher, for example. also great chicken is at farmers markets, but the kinds the farmers bring fresh from their farms (or neighbour's farms) not the kinds in plastic vacuum sealed bags.

      i agree about the markets you mentioned too. quite good!

      1. scarberian Jan 10, 2008 03:46 PM

        For pastries, try La Patisserie Gourmande, 705 Kingston Rd. E., Pickering. They've got an excellent assortment of French pastries. You can also sit down and enjoy a light lunch. For meat my wife and I shop at Rowe Meats in the North Market at St. Lawrence on Saturdays as well as The Butcher Shop (at the corner of Kingston Rd. and Markham Rd.) which has been an institution in Scarborough for years (still family owned and operated!). Their prepared and marinated meats are amazing. As for bagels, Toronto's version is a far cry, pale comparison to an authentic Montreal bagel. I grew up in T.O. and we just don't know bagels. Our version is more like a bun with a hole in it. St. Urbain's bagels just seems... not right. I'm not saying it isn't good, but it's not Montreal. Kettleman's was very good, and close to a Montreal bagel. Unfortunately they closed their only location in T.O. years ago =P (whenever we're in Ottawa we stock up). The bakery at the Distillery is very good, but I'd sure like to know where in T.O. can one find authentic Montreal smoked meat? I guess the answer is VIA Rail with an eastbound ticket to Montreal.

        5 Replies
        1. re: scarberian
          scarberian Jan 11, 2008 02:20 AM

          Sorry a slight typo! The pastry shop in Pickering is actually called "La Decadence Gourmande".

          1. re: scarberian
            y
            Yongeman Jan 11, 2008 03:26 AM

            Regarding your bagel comment, scarberian, it's apples and oranges. I like them both. Then again, it's all been said before.

            1. re: scarberian
              e
              embee Jan 11, 2008 09:57 AM

              For Montreal style bagels, Bagel House on Bayview is very good. Just as Fairmont and St Viateur are not exactly the same, Bagel House isn't identical to either. But it's a very creditable Montreal bagel.

              I never understood Kettleman's. While I saw them making bagels in what appeared to be the authentic Montreal style, they didn't taste anything like a Montreal bagel. They didn't taste like anything much at all. I saw the wood burning oven, but I never even tasted any fire. Horrendous service too. They deserved to fail. YMMV.

              Bagels used to be a New York/Montreal thing almost exclusively. Now they are available everywhere in North America (bagel slicing injuries are a major, serious problem) and Tim's is Canada's biggest seller. Are they bagels? Sure. Do I eat them? No, I don't.

              To most food obsessed New Yorkers (I've lived in NY, Montreal, and Toronto), Montreal bagels taste like some kind of weird, deformed, sweet pastry. It's not that Toronto doesn't "know" bagels. These are just a different kind of bread, similar only in their shape. Most of them are exactly as you describe. You won't like the "legendary" Toronto bagels sold by Gryfe's, but Bagel World and Kiva's have been known to sell some very tasty bagels.

              There is no Toronto deli selling real, dry cured, hand cut, fresh Montreal smoked meat as per Schwartz. However, you can get wimpy, but otherwise "authentic", smoked meat from the reincarnated Dunn's at some GTA Costco stores. The Lester's hand cut old fashioned at Centre St Deli in Thornhill is the same stuff you'll get at some decent Montreal delis, as is the "regular" Lester's at Jody's on Kingston Rd near Queen.

              For French pastries in Toronto, there's a great deal of choice, including Rahier, Patachou, Petit Gourmet, Jules, and many more.

              1. re: scarberian
                satoorisme Oct 30, 2008 09:27 AM

                I think La Decadence Gourmande place closed down a couple of months ago.

                1. re: satoorisme
                  Dr Butcher Oct 30, 2008 12:44 PM

                  You are correct satoorisme, it's a shame, they seemed to have a loyal following.

              2. h
                hungryhungryanne Aug 16, 2007 07:38 PM

                good list!

                i will definitely need to find this monforte dairy.

                1 Reply
                1. re: hungryhungryanne
                  m
                  millygirl Jan 11, 2008 10:36 AM

                  I've seen Monforte Diary products available at a number of places including of course, Summerhill Market, Alex Farms and Fresh From the Farm on Donlands also carries it.

                2. s
                  scrummy Aug 16, 2007 10:43 AM

                  What a thoughtful and comprehensive guide. Thanks for taking the time! :)

                  1. c
                    chemfemme Aug 15, 2007 03:26 PM

                    Cybergod - THANK YOU - you have consolidated a lot of information and we are going to print out your post. We are lamenting our move from Montreal, but you have provided us with some great information to keep us in good eats.

                    I would like to point out that we wholeheartedly agree that the mid-range resto is where Montreal excels, and it is what we will miss the most. A $75 meal in Montreal is usually delicious, and satisfying, but not much worse (and sometimes better) than a $200 meal.
                    As well, your insight into the "coherence" of Montreal food is, well, insightful. Montreal is, in toto, a very coherent place, whilst I would describe Toronto as more disjointed, in a culinary sense and in a socio-cultural sense. Disjointedness does allow for creativity in the interstitial spaces that are harder to find in coherent places. For example at the higher end restos inToronto I find that there is more creativity - whereas high end fine dining in Montreal generally means seasonal French or Italian (there are some exceptions, Laurent Godbout, perhaps).

                    I am sorry to report that my baguette search is still turning up very little - Pain Perdu is inedible ( I bought from La Fromagerie - an expensive and kind of disappointing cheese shoppe on College, its size is limiting I think) , and we were even a bit disappointed in the Dominion Premiere Moisson baguette - it somehow tastes different here. There is a density to the breads here that I just can't quite get used to.

                    I will keep my hopes up for the bread...and I will keep you posted. Thanks again CG - now if we could only find a house we could afford!

                    2 Replies
                    1. re: chemfemme
                      c
                      cybergod Aug 15, 2007 08:44 PM

                      Toronto housing prices: there's another whole topic of conversation ;-) We were lucky and bought in Riverdale just before the madness started several years ago. Our friends who live in the Plateau in Montréal are now telling us similar horror stories about property price inflation...

                      Definitely do check out Thuet's breads (they really are amazing), and also Brick St. Bakery's or St. John's baguettes (note that I'm less crazy about Brick St.'s other breads: they're very much in that English baking tradition, which isn't as much my thing; but the baguette is very good). They keep me happy when I need a baguette fix. St. John's is definitely in a more lighter, air-pocket filled style (albeit still with a good crust), which sounds like it might be more to your liking. Fred's grand baguette (the sourdough version) is also in this style, but with more of a sourdough edge. You can find Fred's breads at All the Best Fine Foods, and if you go early enough, at Carousel Bakery in the St. Lawrence Market.

                      And in general, give it some time to figure this town out; I didn't perhaps fully indicate the degree of angst we felt when we first moved to TO. I (admit) I actually hated this place at first, because my reference point was so different, and Montreal engenders such loyalty in those that have lived there. Once we "got it," we discovered that we really liked Toronto, and still do!

                      1. re: chemfemme
                        d
                        downtown Aug 16, 2007 11:20 AM

                        Since this is Chowhound we shouldn't dwell on the price of real estate in the city but lets just say that it is practically a steal compared to any other major financial centre in North America or Europe. Try shopping for property in Vancouver, NYC, London, etc.

                        Lots of great recommendations in this well researched and thought out post. At the end of the day, however, it still feels like a comparison between two cities that should not be compared.

                      2. h
                        hungry_pangolin Aug 15, 2007 04:40 AM

                        Kudos! I find many ex-Montrealers espouse views about the culinary differences between the two cities that are 30 years out of date, but that is one of the most even-handed assessments I've ever heard. A keen eye (and tongue) you have. And, as others have said above, your post is useful even for the long-time resident of Toronto. Truly - well done!

                        1 Reply
                        1. re: hungry_pangolin
                          c
                          cybergod Aug 15, 2007 05:51 AM

                          Thanks everyone for the feedback! I'm glad it has been well received, and in the spirit in which it was intended to be (not a which city is better discussion).

                          Now to find some more good eats...!

                        2. Wiley Aug 14, 2007 07:04 PM

                          There's also the Montreal Steamies joint in Oshawa, apparently serving the real McCoy, steamed hot dogs all dressed, for something like $1.25.They also did smoked meat from Lester's, but the owner told me their price went up 50% in the last few months, and he switched suppliers..

                          2 Replies
                          1. re: Wiley
                            LovelyAsia Aug 14, 2007 10:20 PM

                            Wasn't there a Steamies on Mount Pleasant south of Eglinton a few years back? Sounds like it would be worth a trip to Oshawa!

                            1. re: LovelyAsia
                              e
                              embee Aug 15, 2007 07:13 AM

                              It was there and I tried it, but I don't remember is as being very good. My opinion has always been that - at least during my Montreal years - steamies were about an ambiance (sleazy pool hall, specifically) and were never very good as a hot dog culinary form :-)

                          2. l
                            LemonLauren Aug 14, 2007 08:45 AM

                            Wow! Thanks for giving us a place to send all the "new to Toronto" posters! The next chapter (I may or may not end up writing it) might cover health food, organics, and, of course DESSERTS! GELATO!

                            1. s
                              strawberryfields Aug 14, 2007 08:45 AM

                              I've never lived in Montreal, but I've been several times and my family has too, and we often get our croissants from a little bakery in The Kingsway, on Bloor Street in the west end (Etobicoke). You need to go early, they go really fast, and the owner is reminiscent of the soup nazi..but they are quite delicious. Flaky and buttery and very light, when theyre fresh its hard to stop at one. Im not sure of the name, but its atlocated at Bloor near Royal York (a thread i found here sounds like this is the one.. Patissirie St Honore http://www.chowhound.com/topics/425416

                              )

                              This sounds like it too: http://www.yummybaguette.com/magasin....

                              5 Replies
                              1. re: strawberryfields
                                HarryLloyd Aug 14, 2007 10:33 AM

                                Those croissants you speak of are VERY buttery and, because of that, quite easy to stop at one. Secondly, definitely not "very light" in taste or mass!

                                But they are VERY, VERY good!


                                Chow!
                                HL.

                                1. re: HarryLloyd
                                  s
                                  strawberryfields Aug 14, 2007 10:56 AM

                                  Really? To each their own I guess. I know how croissants are made so for me its easy to stop..and admittedly they're heavier than the 99cent 'croissants' you can pick up at Loblaws bread bins, but they ARE lighter than a piece of bread and are flaky..and either way, ive heard everyone say theyre great..

                                  However I was just told it's closed til september!

                                  1. re: strawberryfields
                                    pinstripeprincess Aug 14, 2007 12:21 PM

                                    a great croissant does not have the requirement of being light. i'm not really sure where you're getting your conclusion from, harrylloyd has said they are "VERY, VERY good!" and there haven't been any nay sayers for st honore thus far.

                                    trying to make a case for them by saying they're lighter than a piece of bread, is well.. silly. bad croissants taste of and have the texture of bread. great ones are flaky and incredibly rich because of the amount of butter they are unafraid to use... as are the st honore ones. rich foods i can only handle small amounts of.

                                    pick up some frozen ones and bake them in your own home, you will be astounded at the butter that seeps out of them during the baking process. it's frightening yet so delicious.

                                    1. re: pinstripeprincess
                                      g
                                      goodcookiedrift Aug 14, 2007 02:29 PM

                                      My girlfriend, who is a baker, says that the mark of a good authentic croissant is if it starts to "melt" in your hand.

                                      1. re: pinstripeprincess
                                        s
                                        strawberryfields Aug 15, 2007 11:13 AM

                                        pinstripeprincess-
                                        I was not intending to sound rude or as if what HarryLloyd was saying was wrong, I was just genuinely surprised to hear him say they were not light in taste or mass, and thought it was interesting how opinions can differ. I realize he said that they are very good, and that is why I concluded with "either way, we all agree they are great". And yes, maybe my description was lacking the expertise of a croissant baker, or just a croissant fanatic who knows their stuff, but I did not think that it was that bad. My apologies, as I appear to have offended you in what I said for some reason. Furthermore, I did not mean to imply that they were "light" as in a diet sense, but just that they are so easy to eat if it werent for the knowledge of how they are actually made.

                                2. e
                                  embee Aug 14, 2007 08:20 AM

                                  What an extraordinary post! Not just for ex-Montrealers, but for everyone. While I don't agree with all of your choices, I think you are dead on with most of them. And those that I disagree with are more about palate issues than product quality.

                                  Thank you. I'll try to add some more when I have a bit of time.

                                  1. y
                                    Yongeman Aug 14, 2007 06:19 AM

                                    Thanks for a great intro to Toronto. I'm originally from TO, and have detected some of the 'attitude' here on Chowhound, frequently from ex-Montrealers. I love to visit Montreal, and enjoy the food there immensely, but you have really gone out of your way to be fair to both great cities.

                                    1. OnDaGo Aug 14, 2007 06:05 AM

                                      Great Post not just for ex-Montrealers but for everyone in Toronto!

                                      1. g
                                        gourmaniac Aug 14, 2007 05:56 AM

                                        Wow! Thanks for the long and detailed post. The analysis is spot on and very helpful (even to non-expats).

                                        1. LovelyAsia Aug 13, 2007 11:18 PM

                                          What a great post! It is useful for those transplanted from Montreal, and for those of us who have lived here all (or almost all) our lives!

                                          Even though Toronto has a few good delis that serve Montreal Smoked Meat, I have yet to find one that serves the full fat spicy version from Snowdon Deli that I make sure to have each and every time I get to Montreal. Unless an Ex-Montrealer knows of a place here in Toronto?

                                          4 Replies
                                          1. re: LovelyAsia
                                            e
                                            embee Aug 14, 2007 08:32 AM

                                            My personal pet topic - deli.

                                            The Centre St Deli in Thornhill is the direct spawn of Delisnowdon. The owners of Snowdon and Centre St are, I believe, brother and sister.

                                            They are not exactly the same, but many things are very similar. Neither makes their own smoked meat. Both buy from Lester's. Other items on their menus are much alike.

                                            The most profound difference is that Centre St sells pork products. I don't know whether Snowdon does today, but they certainly didn't in the past. The "stuffed chicken" at Centre St is now made with pork, which appalled me (though I am not in any way kosher).

                                            I was at Centre St last week. I live downtown and don't get there very often. The medium old fashioned I got had a distinct rubbery quality I associate with "industrial" smoked meat. It wasn't spicy. It was very disappointing. I don't know whether this was a random brisket glitch or whether Centre St has taken a distinct, intentional step down the quality latter.

                                            It has occurred to me that Snowdon might have had their meats processed by an outside packer to a custom formula. I've never actually known. But last week's Centre St purchase was a bummer. That said, it is the closest to a Montreal deli experience available in the Toronto area. Period. Pause. Cue tears :-(

                                            1. re: embee
                                              LovelyAsia Aug 14, 2007 10:22 PM

                                              Perhaps you should give Steamies a try? See Wiley's post at the bottom of this thread.

                                              1. re: embee
                                                b
                                                BLM Aug 15, 2007 07:08 PM

                                                Embee, any idea who supplies the old-fashioned smoked meat to Snowdon Deli? Lester's is their supplier for their regular smoked meat(probably made according to their specs). I've never had a bad smoked meat at Snowdon Deli(old-fashioned or regular). Even their corned beef is very good. I always order the meats medium-fat.

                                                1. re: BLM
                                                  e
                                                  embee Aug 15, 2007 08:36 PM

                                                  No, if they don't get it from Lester's, I don't know who else they might be using.

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