430696 Mon Aug 13 06:34:45 -0700 2007 205 29 Not About Food 0 2839816 My girlfriend and I were dining at an expensive upscale french restaurant (not in NYC) with very refined old-school service vibe. We have recently gotten into the habit of ordering a couple of appetizers and then splitting an entree, mainly to save on calories as most restaurants serve way too much food, but sometimes to save on cost as well. The waiter at this place was an old-school pro and his service was extremely polished. We sort of got the impression that he did not approve of our splitting an entree. We did however tip 20% on our two appetizer and on two entrees instead of one. But, is it improper to only order one entree and split it? Anybody have any thoughts on this? Mon Aug 13 06:34:45 -0700 2007 60717 psawce 1 2839842 Not something my wife and I would ever do. But you seemed to compensate the server as if you had ordered 2 entrees, so he probably got over his initial issues with it. Is it ok? Sure, but like I said above we dont do it. How would we be able to try each others entrees if we shared just one? ; ) Mon Aug 13 06:42:19 -0700 2007 2839816 26725 swsidejim 1 2839863 jfood thinks you went above and beyond the call of duty. he does not care whether it's NYC or any other town (last jfood check the tipping regimine applies in all 50 states) unless there is a comped dish jfood tips on the food ordered and eaten. If the server is a little brissly at the order phase when you ordered the 2 apps and the single entree, c'est la vie. suppose you ordered one app and then split the entree would you leave tip on an app and an entree you did not order and eat. what about then ordering one dessert? Your tip would have approached 40% which is uncalled for. This tipping thing has gotten way out of control. Mon Aug 13 06:47:39 -0700 2007 2839816 11290 jfood 1 2839896 I think you're the paying customer and you should be able to order whatever you want! I do think it may be a little unusual to do at a formal restaurant, but not "improper" again, it's your appetite, and your money. Also, you mention his service was polished so maybe he deserved such a generous tip but I think you went above and beyond your obligation to him! I completely agree that portions are typically out of control, my usual remedy is to eat half my dinner and bring the rest home for next days lunch. This is not always practical, if not heading straight home. In which case I have been known to order a soup or salad and an appetizer as my dinner. Or DH and I will sometimes split an app. Both of which are not that different than what you did, and we have never considered tipping over 20% because we didn't order 2 apps and 2 entrees. What would be next? Over tipping because you didn't order coffee and dessert too? Mon Aug 13 07:02:11 -0700 2007 2839816 115445 SweetPea914 1 2839937 While we don't actually split entrees or appetizers for that matter, we do share....taste...call it what you will. In some cases my DH has even finished his dinner then taken over my plate to finish off what I could not. And no, we're not Neanderthals. Your tip was super generous. Mon Aug 13 07:19:24 -0700 2007 2839816 75332 Gio 1 2839978 I don't see anything wrong with just ordering one entree, especially if you're ordering a couple of appetizers, wine, and possibly a dessert. I don't really see any need to tip an extra 20% just because you chose not to order a second entree. If there's no extra plate charge, it might be nice to add a little extra if the kitchen or server split the entree, but otherwise I don't think extra compensation is necessary. Mon Aug 13 07:30:45 -0700 2007 2839816 107671 queencru 1 2840014 Onne of my good friends and I try to get out to dinner monthly. We often order a few apps and one entree- along with a bottle of wine. Never had a problem. If it is a restaurant we have never been, we oftern ask the server if this is appropriate for two women with appetites that are not HUGE! Never had a problem. I will also add, we usually order seafood entrees, which I think are better enjoyed when they are served- they never seem to reheat as well. Mon Aug 13 07:41:18 -0700 2007 2839816 11057 macca 1 2840048 I don't see anything wrong with that. Portions are too large in many restaurants and there's no crime in not wanting to stuff yourself. Taking home half the entree doesn't work if you're travelling, either, and some things don't reheat too well. My husband and I are starting to get in the same habit--we don't need the extra calories! (or the expense for food that we don't enjoy after we reach the point of fullness) Mon Aug 13 07:54:34 -0700 2007 2839816 109573 coney with everything 1 2840109 We do it all the time. You are the customer. If they don't like it, you take the business elsewhere. Why would you tip someone way above norm just to gain their approval? He should be the one trying to gain your approval. Mon Aug 13 08:09:36 -0700 2007 2839816 12082 PeterL 2 2854473 Bingo!! Mrs. Sippi and I do this almost as a rule. Not for any other reason than to get a better sampling of their food. If the waiter doesn't approve. Who cares?? It's his/her tip at stake. DT Fri Aug 17 07:37:49 -0700 2007 2840109 11291 Davwud 1 2840137 My first thought after reading your post is that, while his service may have been "extremely polished", something was lacking there or you would never have detected disapproval from your server. That is what is out of place, I think. Mon Aug 13 08:18:33 -0700 2007 2839816 56278 xena 1 2840205 when i used to work behind the lines, I grimaced at "split" because it meant twice as much work (plating wise) for me in the kitchen, as we made 2 separate plates out of the 1 entree..for pure aesthetics, however, it was often the case that we would not just split the entree in half, but actually add more to each plate, thus 1/2 +1/2 = more that the original whole, if that makes any sense at all. Out of the kitchen now, i find myself doing it now with my boyfriend, as it lets us try different appetizers with 1 entree... Mon Aug 13 08:40:16 -0700 2007 2839816 18608 sixelagogo 1 2840328 I think it's perfectly fine and you did a gracious thing by leaving a generous tip. There is a lot of pressure to go out and feel like you have to order exactly the way the restaurant wants you to, rather than being guided by your level of hunger, interest or wallet. My SO and I will get two entrees when it makes sense with our appetite and definitely to be able to try more on the menu (we do plenty of sharing across plates in that case). But there are times we'll split one entree as part of our meal if we're trying out a new restaurant (even the most talked about recs on CH sometimes do not turn out as great as you think they will), or just don't have the appetite. Mon Aug 13 09:05:52 -0700 2007 2839816 51406 pellegrino31 1 2841829 i have been a professional in fine dining for many years. i will never understand why paying guests feel the need to do what they *think* the restaurant *thinks* they should do. trust me, i've worked for some serious tyrants too. bottom line, it's your money. there have been absurd requests, like the 2 women who wanted to split one tasting menu. the portions being so tiny, the question was laughable. most places serve way way too much food, and i'm not keen on bagging it. often a friend and i will split 2 apps and 1 entree, then share a cheese course. it's usually just the right amount of food. we tip generously, but because we're in the industry, not out of guilt or shame or pressure. fwiw, snooty waiters who toss attitude get less from me. Mon Aug 13 14:52:44 -0700 2007 2839816 30273 hotoynoodle 2 2848801 Absolutely agreed with the many posts regarding portion size being way out of hand. Sharing becomes a necessity. It's not always desirable to take home a bunch of leftovers -- especially if it turns out to not to be good, or if it's not something that doesn't keep. I love a prix fixe -- they're are often reasonable sizes of three courses so I can actually have dessert. Also friendly to various appetite sizes are Japanese restaurants. They're fine with ordering a variety of items and sharing. Especially good after dancing. Wed Aug 15 13:26:48 -0700 2007 2841829 13780 Up With Olives 1 2842580 Of course it is OK, couples or otherwise, to split entrees. Many of us do it all the time. Reality check: restaurants sell products, they are also a service industry. You are the buyer. Purchase what you want. It was extremely gracious of you to tip on the mythical two entrees. Do not, however, reward snobbish behavior. If the waiter wishes to order his own meal, he should do so, in whatever fashion he chooses. You do not need his approval to order yours. Note: some entrees are easier to split than others. If it entails cutting a T-bone in half, I'd either make another choice or do it at table, requesting an extra plate. Mon Aug 13 18:49:19 -0700 2007 2839816 15743 Sherri 1 2842656 I learned a long time ago that my eyes are way bigger than my stomach, and I got real tired of crawling out of restaurants so full that I could barely make it to the car. My SO and I decided that the best way to taste a variety of dishes, and not eat so much that it's coming out of our ears, is to order 2 or sometimes 3 appetizers, and then split a main. We have done this locally as well as on our travels through the US and in Europe. No one has ever looked askance at us, and we have never gotten attitude from waiters. The classier restaurants (and that does not necessarily mean the expensive ones) will split the dish in the kitchen, but we don't mind splitting it at the table, either. It's our money, it's our dinner, and the if restaurant values our business (we are regulars at several) they will accomodate us. I don't see the difference in price if we order the way we do, or if we ordered only 2 mains, no appetizers or desserts, so the waiter's tip would not suffer. It may sound obnoxious, but the restaurant is there to serve us, not for us to wither under a waiter's look or attitude if he doesn't like the way we order. And no, we're not difficult customers. Mon Aug 13 19:18:04 -0700 2007 2839816 10625 Missyme 1 2842693 Yes - it is absolutely OK. Just be prepared to pay a small fee if you expect the restaurant to actually split the dish onto two plates. My SO and I often share, but never ask for separate plating. Mon Aug 13 19:32:46 -0700 2007 2839816 76025 mojoeater 2 2844669 i never ask the kitchen to split the plate. we are always happy to just divvy it up ourselves. sometimes they do it anyway, and it's always a pleasant surprise. Tue Aug 14 11:30:49 -0700 2007 2842693 30273 hotoynoodle 1 2842733 We split a lot. At mid range restaurants we'll often split an entree(don't mind a reasonable split charge ourselves) and order individual apps. As for the tip, if the service has been great and no attitude thrown(we've dealt with the attitudes with splits, especially since on top of it my husband is a non-drinker so we have low bar bills with my one glass of wine) we'll tip a bit extra if it seems our bill came in low(this is more apt to happen at lunch where we might split a sandwich and not much more). If the bill comes to a pretty average range for teh evening we just tip as we normally would based on the service itself, usually around 20%. In high end places we tend to split the first course(s) and then order individual entrees...just seems more appropriate/comfortable I guess. Plus in these settings we're usually interested in trying a couple of the chef's main creations. Mon Aug 13 19:50:21 -0700 2007 2839816 16406 ziggylu 1 2842746 I think it's perfectly okay for couples to split. I also think there's a line between what should be expected based on common courtesy and etiquette, and what restaurants should recognize as the patron's personal choice. Unfortunately, often it seems that when restaurants earn a certain reputation, they have no problem crossing that line. Neither my boyfriend nor I drink alcohol, and often we order 2 appetizers and 1 entree to share between the two of us. Excessive portion sizes, desire to control caloric intake and avoid that overstuffed-and-icky feeling, and unwillingness to fill our fridge with unwanted leftovers - there's always a reason, and it never has anything to do with money. Unfortunately, when we're at a nice restaurant, our waiters almost always pay significantly less attention to us from the moment we tell them we won't be having wine with our meal. Sigh. As far as tipping; if the service was good, we tip generously based on our bill. While I think it was very sweet of you to tip the way you did, I think it's awful that the atmosphere of the restaurant, or attitude of the waiter, or whatever it may have been, made you feel pressured to tip so much in excess. If you ask me, tips should be earned, they are not a given, and as a patron it is my right to receive the same level of service regardless of the amount of money I plan to spend on my food or tip my waiter. Mon Aug 13 19:55:25 -0700 2007 2839816 58027 Aloo0628 2 2854774 "Excessive portion sizes" has been said in so many ways in these posts. I want it understood in no uncertain terms by any restauranteur reading this - I do not find portion sizes at restaurants to be excessive. There is no need to reduce the portions offered. Apparently I am the only who often thinks "That was good - wish there was more." Fri Aug 17 08:54:56 -0700 2007 2842746 26666 FrankJBN 3 2854795 you are not alone. I do not find portion sizes being "excessive" Fri Aug 17 09:00:23 -0700 2007 2854774 26725 swsidejim 4 2856284 I'm not complaining either. DT Fri Aug 17 15:28:17 -0700 2007 2854795 11291 Davwud 5 2856736 I love leftovers for lunch! Fri Aug 17 18:27:26 -0700 2007 2856284 76025 mojoeater 3 2859463 Nothing better than a taste of something at midnight... Except I never take home salads... Sun Aug 19 09:40:39 -0700 2007 2854774 88683 stellamystar 1 2842915 >I think it's perfectly okay for couples to split. > we all agree the "couple" part of this is irrelevant, right? ... at least beyond meaning "two people". [two people going out to dinner and asking for a 4 person table because a friend is going to joing them to hangout, is a different story]. i think in some cases when you arent there for the full bill of faire maybe eat at the bar, go before/after prime time ... but that's more a matter of just dropping in for dessert, or just getting a glass of wine and an app etc. [BTW, in my opinion, this is a much easier case than the "expection" to order wine at the kind of restaurant the OP talks about] Mon Aug 13 21:08:12 -0700 2007 2839816 16770 psb 2 2843619 can't speak for everyone else but agree the "couple" part is irrelevant - it's just about 2 people at a table, regardless of their relationship to each other. Tue Aug 14 07:35:13 -0700 2007 2842915 51406 pellegrino31 1 2843494 it's your right to order whatever you want. if you want to split, split. The waiter should take your order pleasantly, to do otherwise is unprofessional. Sometimes there is a split charge--you should be informed either by the menu or by the server,and you should be either willing to pay it or order two entrees. otherwise, share and enjoy! Tue Aug 14 06:55:09 -0700 2007 2839816 15562 nc213 1 2846523 "Improper?" Is it improper to visit a gas station for a fillup and only buy $5 worth? With the added tip, I think you did just fine. Tue Aug 14 20:14:08 -0700 2007 2839816 14479 wayne keyser 2 2846663 Keep in mind that with 2 apps and one entree you were there for less time than in you had ordred 2 apps, 2 entrees, 2 desserts etc. and so your overtipping was generous. I don't mind throwing a an extra buck or two tip on a quick $7 meal, but when you're already talking $100+ meals I don't know why people feel the need to tip above and beyond. If you have a nice $200 dinner out and you're in the resto for 1.5hrs and tip $40, you're tipping about $26/hr. I know many people with master's degrees that don't make $26/hr. Tue Aug 14 21:14:58 -0700 2007 2846523 15507 Rick 3 2987644 Please bear in mind that most server positions are not 40 hr/week, most do not have employer subsidized health care, vacation, sick time, etc. And if there is an off night, that $26/hr. very well could represent an entire evenings take home pay. It is a physically brutal job and a great position can change over night with a change in management. Something to think about... Fri Sep 28 20:58:36 -0700 2007 2846663 111267 meatn3 4 2987954 meatn3, I keep that in mind all the time. Every single time I am in a diner or a restaurant, I marvel at how pleasant most servers are. And how much time they spend on their feet. And how they have to put up with the general public. If serving is their side job, how they have to work two jobs. If serving is their main job, how amazing it is that they can do it, day in and day out. I could NOT do their jobs, and like nurses and other service people who deal with the general public, I value them very much. And now, courtesy of threads on this, I find out that they are paid abysmally by the fat cats who own the restaurants. A question -- is there a server union? Even with all that, though, as nc213 said, I consider it my 'right' to order what I want in a restaurant. To be treated as I would treat them. To split if I want to split -- although if I were told that there is a $7.50 split charge as at my nemesis, I would order an entree instead and never go back. To sit where I want to sit. To be treated professionally. To NOT be rushed. As an added bonus, to not pay for parking. Until now, I 'thought' a 20% tip was decent. Dining out is my major form of entertainment, so I take it very seriously. I decry bad restaurants and bad service and bad food. I tell them about it and I tell you all about it. Some care, some don't. meatn3, other than all that, I'm not sure how much more I can do. Sat Sep 29 05:16:27 -0700 2007 2987644 11104 dolores 5 2989123 It sounds as though you are behaving as a considerate, thoughtful diner. I agree you should be able to attain all that you list in your last several paragraphs. My personal serving philosophy was that I was there to do whatever I could to ensure an enjoyable experience for the guest. Most guests are great to neutral. Unfortunately, like anything, the ones who are bad are really bad. My pointing out the server realities was to even out the comparison of their income with hourly wage of those with a Masters. Often folks who have "real world" 9-5 jobs with benefits have no idea of the reality of the surreal world of food service. While a quick look at an hours pay may look great, there are many hours where it isn't. It is not uncommon for the management to expect several hours of non-tipped work in exchange for a better section or getting seated first. At restaurant minimum wage here that would be working 3 hours for under $10 before taxes. If you don't like it, you don't get a good section or may not get many hours on the schedule. And if management changes, your position can change at a drop of a hat. It is not a democratic situation & the only recourse is to change jobs. As far as unions go, perhaps they exist elsewhere, but not in southern "right to work" states. Sat Sep 29 16:58:25 -0700 2007 2987954 111267 meatn3 1 2847047 As a waiter, I will say that you are welcome to come sit in my section and split an entree. As long as you're reasonably nice about it, I'm open to just about anything you request. Oddly, I find that the people who think they are being a bother are much more enjoyable in general than the ones who take requesting special service for granted. I'd certainly rather have a two-top in my section split an entree than one less table. It is very generous of you to tip extra like that. I promise every waiter you have done that for has been thrilled. Wed Aug 15 05:03:37 -0700 2007 2839816 10996 JK Grence the Cosmic Jester 1 2854695 My wife and I do this often. Of course we find ourselves more often doing it at more expensive places where it seems more inappropriate to do it. While perhaps the server really does not mind, I still feel that there is a social contract situation - I imagine most servers have a goal in mind of how much they hope to earn in tips and cheapskates like me will impact this goal. So when I do so, I will often order an appetizer, sides or dessert and sometimes tip a little extra if I think it's warranted - I still end up spending less than I would have for two entrees and the server still gets the tip he was hoping to get. Win-win. Fri Aug 17 08:36:17 -0700 2007 2839816 69452 jzerocsk 2 2855051 i think a wrinkle is when the waiter feels you are NOT going to do him right with the tip bump and then doesnt deliver good service, and thus either you have to tip bump in spite of subpar service, or his lower tip expectation becomes "self-fulfilling". similiar situation to "yes, i am a twenty something/college student/non-drinker but dont worry i wont short you on your tip" ... you obviously cant advertise this explicitly, but it potentially becomes self-fullfulling ... of course of analysis is any waiter inclined to make this self-fullfilling deserves what he gets and you should feel the need to tip higher than warrated to "prove a point"/guilt trip him etc. Fri Aug 17 10:02:00 -0700 2007 2854695 16770 psb 1 2855976 My parents have been doing this for years (they are in their 70s). They never ask the waiter to do the splitting for them, but when it does happen, they thank the waiter enthusiastically and tip extra. They always tip a little extra because the waiter is dealing with two people. I, myself, can't bring myself to be quite as generous as the OP, but I also don't make enough money to be really free with it. Fri Aug 17 14:06:12 -0700 2007 2839816 97411 NewSushiFiend 2 5174374 Us, too! Often, one of us orders the entree and the other orders an appetizer and we sometimes get a side salad. We very rarely need the extra plate (we just exchange what we're eating with each other), and never have the server go through the trouble of dividing up the entree (no extra work for them). Since we're not eating two humungous entrees, there's room for dessert, and we always tip the server according to his/her service. Don't be paranoid about what your server thinks of you other than your attitude and your willingness to tip. If you want your dessert served alongside your entree and you're pleasant about it, it's their job to please you, and you should not feel intimidated. Wed Nov 11 18:10:45 -0800 2009 2855976 322300 Michelly 1 2856471 Think it is fine to split, but more and more restaurants are charging a fee for this, so expect it...this brings to mind a story that I was told...When at Carnegie Deli in NY, a friend of mine ordered one of their huge sandwiches, and her friend did not want a sandwich, so her friend ordered a piece of cheesecake...The waitress told them that there was a "split charge", and the "friend" told the waitress that she did not want the sandwich..The waitress told her " I am keeping my eye on you, and if you take one bite of her sandwich, I'm charging!"...Can you imagine? I know that the waitresses are a bit "brisk" there, but give me a break! Fri Aug 17 16:33:21 -0700 2007 2839816 71851 jinet12 2 2857822 Again, if she sees you sharing a single bite and charges you a split charge, it comes out of her tip. It's really that simple. They work for you. Not the other way around. DT Sat Aug 18 10:45:07 -0700 2007 2856471 11291 Davwud 3 2863673 while that waitress' attitude and comment were unwaranted, the servers at a restaurant do not work for you. they work for the restaurant. They are their to provide service, not act as servants. yes, she was entirely wrong to say that. Yes, you could choose to take a split fee out of a server's tip, but severs are not in your personal employ. Mon Aug 20 15:53:01 -0700 2007 2857822 15562 nc213 4 2863998 While you can say that they are employed by the restaurant, the simple fact is, their salary, as well as everyone who works there are paid with money from customers. It's a service industry. The entire industry is employed by the customer. Of course that doesn't give you the right to treat them as a slave or anything like that. But how much they get paid and the restaurant makes is a direct result of their ability to serve the customer in a satisfactory manner. DT Mon Aug 20 17:37:57 -0700 2007 2863673 11291 Davwud 2 2857947 the split charge is explicitly stated on the menu so all the waitress is doing is letting you know the resto policy. As far as delivery, it's the Carnegie, lucky she did not abuse you further. Your friend has a great story to add to a great meal. Just relax and enjoy the meal. Sat Aug 18 11:54:14 -0700 2007 2856471 11290 jfood 2 2974980 I certainly have no beef with a restaurant having policies and posting them and putting them into effect, but I think what bothers me about this story is that there is a difference between splitting and just tasting someone's food. If your friend's sandwich looked particularly yummy when it had come to the table, you might have been tempted to taste it, and vice versa with your cheesecake. Maybe I'm nitpicking, but it would very much annoy me to be charged a full split fee for just a taste, when I am clearly not dragging half the sandwich onto my own plate. If I did that I would expect to pay the split charge. EDIT: In rereading I see the story was about a friend and not in fact jinet12, so please change my 'your' to 'their' in your heads. :) Tue Sep 25 12:33:24 -0700 2007 2856471 67055 marmite 2 2975171 jinet12, what was the amount of the 'split charge'? A red sauce place angered a friend with their $7.50 sharing charge, and I agreed with her that this was outrageous. I think your friend being told that she was being 'watched' is outrageous. Thank you for the info. I'll never go to Carnegie Deli again, that's for sure. Tue Sep 25 13:10:01 -0700 2007 2856471 11104 dolores 1 2856544 I don't understand the extra tip, but maybe I am missing something. He already registered his disapproval prior to your tipping him, so essentially you were buying his good opinion of you, after the fact. Was this insurance against going there again and having him as your server the next time? Fri Aug 17 17:01:20 -0700 2007 2839816 20387 tobycat 2 2876420 When I've done this in the past, it's more to send a message of "next time don't make an assumption about me" or "don't prejudge your customer" type of thing... to hope that he doesn't make the next person feel bad, I guess. Thu Aug 23 22:59:05 -0700 2007 2856544 93291 boltnut55 1 2856805 I've never had problems sharing dishes with friends, whether it's an upscale place or a hole in the wall. I would just share it at the table, rather than have the kitchen split that for us. There will be times when I won't eat a full meal because I'm hitting a whole bunch of places. Being able to share stuff is very useful in this regard. Fri Aug 17 19:05:37 -0700 2007 2839816 10076 limster 1 2857959 I have no problem with how you ordered. Did he charge you a split fee, as is generally customary? I usually split lunch with Dad -- a salad (like a cobb with lots of different things in it) or a sandwhich. Neither of us wants a whole order --just too much food. Sat Aug 18 11:59:51 -0700 2007 2839816 56406 Bite Me 2 2862750 As Craig Claiborne of the New York Times once said, it's your table, you are paying for it. As long as you do not offend or disturb other patrons or the staff, you can do whatever you want. Mon Aug 20 12:33:24 -0700 2007 2857959 54222 ekammin 1 2863190 When I saw this post I thought you were asking about what my Mom and Stepdad always do - "You order the salmon, and I'll order the chicken and 1/2 way thru we'll SWITCH." which is an entirely different thing entirely. I certainly think it's ok to share an entree (or two - when we go to the local hibachi place we split a sushi/sashimi plate and 1 hibachi entree). And altho I am not fond of the other practice, I don't see any problem with doing it - just don't try to switch plates with ME! lol Mon Aug 20 14:02:24 -0700 2007 2839816 65780 jujuthomas 1 2863701 My boyfriend and I regularly eat out and regularly split entrees. The portions that restaurant serve are much more than either one of us can (usually) eat, so why not share? I think most restaurants are pretty used to this practice and like others have said, your're a paying customer and should be able to order whatever and however much (or little), you'd like. Mon Aug 20 15:58:12 -0700 2007 2839816 27021 Augusta 1 2879971 I was a waitress for years and would have rathered people split their dinners than to have asked me to box up all that leftover food which I always offered but was more disturbed by the waste of people, so split, but some restaraunts charge a small fee(5$) for sharing. Fri Aug 24 22:52:30 -0700 2007 2839816 121655 Deb9962 1 2887015 my SO, like the OP's waiter, is a professional waiter in an upscale restaurant. we have had many discussions as to why customers would go out to an expensive upscale place and then make attempts to minimize costs. it isn't a matter of judging or disapproving, although i am aware there are many snooty pretentious waiters out there (boy am i ever, we look young and are misjudged all the time). but there are also many waiters who genuinely want you to have the best experience possible. it's just a shame to think that here are these people who are at a fabulous restaurant but they can't have a full out fabulous time because they're worried about cost. it is the "norm" i believe for people to go "all out" when they go to these restaurants- and it's not all rich people. some of the best tables are the ones who have saved up for weeks/months just to come out and have a great experience. like a customer who can't enjoy a glass of wine with dinner because he/she has to drive, it's disappointing to a server who genuinely cares about the customer's experience. i can't think of a (non-snooty) professional waiter having an issue with people just having small appetites, but he wouldn't know that unless you told him. bottom line is, by all means it's proper to order whatever will make you happy. and if you communicate what you want to your server he/she can probably suggest things you wouldn't even think of. i once had a table doing a tasting menu (8 courses) but they weren't big drinkers, so i suggested they split glasses of wine so that they could have different wine matches with different courses- same great experience, but tailored to suit their tolerance. Mon Aug 27 15:19:42 -0700 2007 2839816 95796 excuse me miss 2 2888090 >go out to an expensive upscale place and then make attempts to >minimize costs. > they are not "minimizing costs". they are making "marginal decisions". this is like saying "i dont understand why somebody buying a million dollar house wouldnt buy a very expensive TV". >it isn't a matter of judging or disapproving, > it sure seems that way to me ... although if i were to be precise, and sorry about this sounding harsh, i read it more as sel-serving condescention ... you seem to think you have a better sense of how other people should spend their money than they do. in some cases there may be a case to be made for the "expert" to have a better sense of budgeting than the principal, like it is quite possible if i had a $100 wine budget it would be better off asking the sommelier what pairs well with what food i have ordered. but in the two degree freedom case, i dont think this holds ... i.e. where the wine steward tells me both how much to spend and what wine to get. another case of penny-wise/pound foolish might be say if you are putting together a stereo system or a computer system and spend too little on speaker cables or memory, but i think that is fundamentally different from your "i know better" attitude toward diners' "preference curves". >it is the "norm" i believe for people to go "all out" when they go to >these restaurants- > that is close to the "norm" for me ... i very rarely go out to the high end places with tasting menus and not get the tasting menu. however it is not at all true in the wine axis ... with wine, i just go along with what friends want to drink. however i am sure there are other people who go to the same places and "just" have an entree ... i dont think either of us are in a position to pity these "poor dears" and reflect on what they are missing, "if only they'd know better". Mon Aug 27 21:17:26 -0700 2007 2887015 16770 psb 3 2899908 I disagree with your take on EMM's comments. Her experience indicates that the main propellant for people to split an entree is to conserve money, although many posters say that it is for the amount of food they are served. You replied that it is the consumer's decision to decide what and how to budget (dollars, calories, alcoholic intake). I thought that her offer to split a wine tasting was nothing less than brilliant and something I would never have ask for in a restaurant. I drink, but not a whole lot, so wouldn't consider a wine tasting with a tasting menu. It speaks of a sensitivity to the customers needs. I like to share an appetizer, each have an entree, and share a dessert with my SO because that amount of food typically is just the right amount for a meal for us, though I certainly started out doing it to pinch pennies. As for the OP's initial question, at upscale places, I find that the appetizers sound much more compelling than the entrees (and they can often have higher sodium and fat levels), so I can understand why they might want to invert the order: order 2 apps, 1 entree and 2 desserts. Fri Aug 31 08:18:24 -0700 2007 2888090 59951 thinks too much 1 2891700 We do that sometimes at local restaurants we go to fairly often. Split a Caesar Salad and then each have a main dish and share a dessrt. We wouldn't think of doing it at an expensive, more formal restaurant. When you dine at a fine restaurant, making reservations usually far in advance...the case at least in NYC, you are signing up for a dining experience. You are taking up a table for the evening, and are pretty much expected to order a full meal. The portion sizes in restaurants like this are usually normal size, for one person. If we just want something simple simple or a snack type meal, we go to some other kind of establishment. Wed Aug 29 00:10:41 -0700 2007 2839816 10838 Fleur 1 2897599 Unless I see orders/rules not to, I brought the food so I can do whatever I want with it. Thu Aug 30 13:21:36 -0700 2007 2839816 123472 chef2chef 1 2899846 I think it makes the customer look cheap, but as stated earlier, it's entirely up to said customer what he/she orders. Fri Aug 31 08:00:59 -0700 2007 2839816 92744 invinotheresverde 1 2914810 this is the hospitality industry and thus, the customer is always right. end of story. if a restaurant chooses to impose a 5 dollar split charge or whathaveyou, that's entirely acceptable. many times some women will do this. it is also very common for elderly couples, as their appetites are quite diminished with a slowing metabolism. my significant other and i do this often as we are quite poor. you should want to make everyone feel like a million bucks. obviously, you will encounter people who can afford it and are taking advantage, which is when you charge them for a split. i think it's quite simple. Wed Sep 05 20:18:54 -0700 2007 2839816 52834 tinymango 2 2914907 "obviously, you will encounter people who can afford it and are taking advantage, which is when you charge them for a split." Are you implying a split charge should be arbitrary? Either split charge applies to everyone or it applies to no one. How would a restaurant know who "can afford and is taking advantage?" Are we now required to show bank books when we arrive to dine? Wed Sep 05 20:53:11 -0700 2007 2914810 16406 ziggylu 3 2919347 actually, people get special treatment in restaurants all the time. i just think that in situations where a couple wants to sit down and eat our bread and linger over a single split entree, they need to pay a split charge to compensate. that's taking advantage. however if a couple comes in and splits 4 apps and splits an entree, why charge them a fee? just as in many restaurants, a waitress can choose to waive the manditory gratuity for parties over 6 or the manager may choose to waive a corkage fee for some customers. it happens all the times. restaurants operate on a purely situational basis. sometimes things get comped depending on who you are, as well. there is no equality in a restaurant. ridiculous. Fri Sep 07 08:11:51 -0700 2007 2914907 52834 tinymango 4 2919425 You stated: ""obviously, you will encounter people who can afford it and are taking advantage, which is when you charge them for a split."" Now you say instead it comes down to what the bill is for the table. Which is it? Two entirely different things. Fri Sep 07 08:28:13 -0700 2007 2919347 16406 ziggylu 4 2919484 sigh .. once again, i'll turn to the "great unwritten social contract betwen diner and resto" ... i think most people agree this exists, but people disagree about it's contents. if the resto wants to comp you dessert, or waive corkage, that is their business. if they want to hold some tables for regulars and turn me down over the phone, i suppose that is also their business. i personally think it is leem to violate FIFO by having a "fastpath" for regulars who walkin, because 1. they are gifting some patrons "on the backs of others" [not really the case with the free creme brulee] and 2. it's a little more "in your face". [and for those of you who defend this, do you change your mind if the queue jumpers are say hot chicks the maitre d' is macking on?]. similarly, i think it is leem to say charge people different prices. while a "rational economic anlysis" might suggest your percuniary utility loss in being charge $2 extra is less than the value of the free dessert you didnt get, but there is something obnoxious about one and not the other. see the "i like rice too" case from NYC: http://tinyurl.com/2mrdjr so as amartya sen would write, "equality of what?" Fri Sep 07 08:45:20 -0700 2007 2919347 16770 psb 5 2919699 i'm trying to tell you that it is unfair to attempt to standardize rules for an industry based entirely on variables. it boils down to who you are, who you know, who they are, and what sort of mood they're in. i'm sorry, but that's the harsh truth. regulars get treated differently, because they've been loyal customers and have value to the restaurant. it's a little bit like those subway cards, where if you're a loyal customer, you get enough stamps, patronise their business enough times, you get a freebie. it seems human nature to expect something in return when you give. you factor in the projected amount of comps in your financial forecasting. you know you're going to give away some things for free, however you can't afford to do that for everybody, obviously. it's almost as if the restaurant industry is based on treating people differently. the nature of the beast, if you will. it's not obnoxious, you have to make up for those comps somehow. sometimes you come out on top, other times you don't. i know i have certainly been on both sides of the spectrum. if you don't have times that you aren't comped, how would you appreciate the times you are? if you have a lovely meal, with great service and splendid food, nonethewiser about that freebie you *didn't* recieve, are you going to walk away unhappy? Fri Sep 07 09:45:05 -0700 2007 2919484 52834 tinymango 6 2928503 assuming you are replying to me, i dont understand why you go on about comps [which i take to mean "free items"]. i said several times i believe, those are a simple case. if a resto gives one party a free glass of wine, dessert, waived corkage, that doesnt entitle you to anything. next, the "social contract" is much more nunaced than "standardized rules based on variables" of the "there is a $50/table minimum between 6:30-8:30" flavor. finally, of course i know all kinds of "personal variables" factor in, just like in many offices raises and promotions might be based in part on "personal factors" as opposed to productivity factors. i'm interested in the "normative theory" ... exploring questions like "what the difference between a free creme brulee" and "i'll just make these shlubs wait an extra 15min to seat these other people right away". for the rare obnoxious resto operators, i'm happy things like google may cause them to reflect on fairness a little more ... see e.g. the thread on sticker shock specials. sicne this does allow for many more patrons to "get even". [and yes, i know many random bloggers may not be fair in their reviews, but that is you might agree is the nature of the blogosphere]. Mon Sep 10 16:56:27 -0700 2007 2919699 16770 psb 2 2915617 How do you know they are "taking advantage" rather than watching how much they eat? I don't think they resto/server should worry about why it is done. It is the choice of the customer. Thu Sep 06 07:15:09 -0700 2007 2914810 97411 NewSushiFiend 2 2919400 The customer is definitely NOT always right. There are always people out there looking for a scam, forcing mangers, servers, owners, etc to let good judgement prevail over old sayings. Fri Sep 07 08:23:50 -0700 2007 2914810 92744 invinotheresverde 3 2919424 actually it's "the customer is always right, in his mind". Fri Sep 07 08:28:09 -0700 2007 2919400 95796 excuse me miss 4 2919544 Exactly. :) Fri Sep 07 09:01:20 -0700 2007 2919424 92744 invinotheresverde 1 2919504 YES! but leave a bigger tip as if the bill was twice as much. Fri Sep 07 08:49:19 -0700 2007 2839816 46248 plove53 1 2922857 yes! Sat Sep 08 13:09:58 -0700 2007 2839816 117004 DesperateChefsWives 1 2942265 Something that's not been pointed out, and as a former server I thought I would mention, is that servers often get chastised for this practice. I've worked at a LOT of chains, almost all chains with a couple of exceptions, and your performance is judged by numbers. If your numbers get too low, they will actually fire you. When I say numbers, I mean not just sales numbers, but the check average. When you ring in 2 guests and 2 drinks and an app and then there's only one entree on the check, it lowers the check average considerably. (Even if you don't order an app, if you order alcohol it has to be rung in before the bar will give it to you, with the proper # of people). This is why restaurants (I hate "restos" and refuse to use it) have started charging a split plate charge; it's not about portion sizes being big at this one, just right at this one, or any other Goldilocks scenario. It's about the fact that they've expected to make X amount per customer and that's how they've set the prices of the entrees. By splitting the entree between 2 people, you've forced them to get half as much income off 2 people as they would otherwise reasonably expect. And in my experience, people who are splitting an entree do not also get a) apps b) alcohol and c) desserts because they are either trying to watch their pennies or watch their waistlines, or both. Two or three splits a night and your check average goes down several dollars, and that is brought to your attention when you check out for the night, or when 3 month reviews are done, or however the restaurant chooses to measure performance. This is why you might see the "shade" of disappointment on the server's face. It's hard to mask it sometimes when you're already close to the chopping block because you're not selling hard enough to get your average higher. In my personal experience, those most likely to request a split entree are the elderly and those with small children, the latter also having come in on free kids' meal night. With the family, you then have perhaps FOUR (or more) people you've rung in at the table, and a total of one entree; this REALLY drags the check average down and is why a lot of restaurants now will only give one free kid's meal per one adult entree. With the elderly, it's because they're on a fixed income and they just don't eat that much food (well, some of them), and I don't blame them for that, but again, they might be really nice, but pouring free coffee refills for them for 2 hours while they split the cheapest, chopped steak entree on the menu doesn't do much for someone trying to make a living. The server ends up trying to make it up the rest of the night by ringing in a table of 4 people as 1 if they all ordered soft drinks so that the average goes back up as it looks like 1 person ordered 4 entrees, which is silly but the report doesn't know any better, and it just stresses you out trying to play these games. My take is, if you can afford to go out and don't want the big portion, take half of it home or let the server throw it out if you don't like leftovers. If you are watching your pennies, don't order apps and dessert but at least get one entree per person. If you can't afford one entree per person, perhaps choose a less expensive restaurant. Fri Sep 14 13:07:13 -0700 2007 2839816 19518 rockandroller1 2 2942599 Thank you for providing an insight that is not often granted to people who haven't worked in that kind of system (I've waited tables at three places and have NEVER been subject to this kind of treatment.) Working an unfair system is stressful. Hopefully, a good host should spread what appears to be higher-paying tables around. However, am I as a consumer supposed to meekly support the restaurant as it continues such practices? I understand that a business must make a profit in order to survive, but I certainly don't feel a need to order more food than I want in order to not ruin their profit margin. By the way, I sympathize with the idea of one free kid entree per adult entree. I do not condone working the system to make the restaurant pay for my business. Fri Sep 14 14:37:13 -0700 2007 2942265 59951 thinks too much 2 2942850 Things sure have changed since my days as waitstaff. Would it be possible for you to name places where servers are punished for giving their customers what they want? That's absolutely deplorable, and I would like to make a special point of never giving them my business. Fri Sep 14 16:03:23 -0700 2007 2942265 58743 alanbarnes 3 2942868 Pasta Pomodoro. Fri Sep 14 16:10:21 -0700 2007 2942850 43515 adrienne156 2 2946414 As jfood has mentioned numerous times, this is between the server and the management. Getting the custo involved in inside baseball is the wrong approach. you MUST keep the custo out of these situations. it is really none of the custos concern how the mgt and the server interact. Sun Sep 16 12:08:54 -0700 2007 2942265 11290 jfood 2 2949548 If this is the way chains treat their employees, I will stop eating at chains. I refuse to greese the palm of someone who treats their employees with such little respect. I will happily bring my business to the indies. Mon Sep 17 13:42:03 -0700 2007 2942265 97411 NewSushiFiend 1 2942709 What a thread. This is really interesting reading. I don't do quite so much calculus. When I go out to eat, I order what sounds good; sometimes that's an appetizer and dessert, other times it's 3 appetizers and dessert, sometimes an entree and nothing else but a soda...and so on. My wife and I will often split an appetizer, or order up 4 appetizers and an entree between us...again, whatever sounds good that night. If a restaurant has a split charge or a share charge, that's fine and we'll choose our ordering accordingly if that's of concern to us that night. If the restaurant has a more fixed menu or designs their menu as a coursed meal then we tend to stick to that more closely. At bottom, we tip based on what we ordered and the service we received. If we got good service, we're tipping well and will likely take into account whether we ordered significantly less in terms of dollar total than we normally do. I don't feel that I owe the restaurant a particular level of sales, though. If they feel like the need to have a minimum per diner, then they can state that up front and I'll choose whether I want to dine there. Fri Sep 14 15:13:30 -0700 2007 2839816 80141 ccbweb 2 2942780 Agreed about the sales level. If they're that interested in having a minimum, charge a split fee or require a minimum sales level per person. I don't really see it as the customer's responsibility to be forced to waste food or money because they should be thinking about the restaurant's bottom line. As a customer, that's just not my job. Fri Sep 14 15:38:52 -0700 2007 2942709 107671 queencru 3 2944193 I agree with what you all have said about it not being your job to make them profitable. I'm just explaining it for so you're a more informed consumer, so that you can understand why the server might have that "flash of disappointment" when presented with a request to split an entree, and so that you'll understand how these conglomerates view business. And for the previous poster who asked what place it was that did this, this was type of check average/punishment type deal was standard at EVERY chain I've worked at. I happen to think the check average thing is a way smaller deal than the chains I've worked at that were subject to secret shopper visits, aka QSRs. I assume you guys know about this crap? This is the one thing I HATED HATED HATED about serving in chain restaurants. You had to analyze every single table you had up front to try to determine if you were getting "shopped." Whenever someone was suspected to have a 'shopper' table, they got a lot of sympathy and help from the other servers. Basically, all the chains have varying "steps of service" that you as a server have to hit. They call this process different things at different places and each place has their own unique things you have to do and say, and in varying numbers, but they all have them. You are trained via a video and paperwork and the trainee system what you have to do and say to hit all the steps of service. About once a month, a secret shopper will come in and "check" if you are hitting all the steps. These people don't work for the restaurant and they do shops at all different restaurants. There are, of course, also secret shoppers for retail and other type jobs but I've never seen such a punishment/reward system as it relates to secret shoppers outside of the restaurant business. The shopper isn't allowed to write anything down or otherwise indicate in any way they are "shopping" the establishment. They just have to order a certain number of categories of food items (which is usually the tip off for the server), visit the restrooms, etc. Here's an example of some of the "steps" you are graded on. It's mostly pass/fail as to whether or not you did the specific thing, not how well you did something. - greeted the table within 30 seconds (you don't have to necessarily start serving then if you're busy, but at least to stop by and say hi, I'll be right with you) - ask if they've been there before. If so, you welcome them back, if not, you have a little spiel you go into about the restaurant) - tell them the feature for the day - tell them about the delicious soup of the day - tell them what the house wines are - ask for drink order, using SPECIFIC suggestion, such as "would you like to start with one of our Jumbotron Margaritas?" - ask for an app order, using a specific suggestion, "And would you like me to put in an order of some of our Craptastic Nachos or Scintillating Shrimp bites?" This continues throughout the meal, including if you checked back to see how things were, if you offered refills, how long it takes you to clear the plates, bring the check, bring the change or credit card back, if you tell them to come back and visit soon, etc. About a month afterwards, the restaurant receives a report of the shop, with the server's name at the top. At the last place I worked, when a new shop report came in they made everyone come in the kitchen before the shift so they could call the server out on what they did wrong. The person's name is highlighted and the report stayed up there for like a week. Very, very, very rarely someone would get all the steps right, and then you'd get something, like a $50 bill. I think I saw this happen all of once. I mean, for example, if your table orders 4 Miller Lites, why on EARTH would you specifically suggest, after they've had 2 rounds of drinks, apps and salad that they try a glass of XYZ wine with their meal? OR if they aren't drinking any alcohol at all - I know you've had 3 diet cokes ma'am, but would you like to try a glass of our house wine, XYZ, with your entree? It's STUPID. Whatever the person does wrong on the shop is discussed and the management re-emphasizes why this or that step is important, and how we have to specifically suggest this or that or why Janine could have done better if she'd have tried to upsell them to a loaded baked potato or whatever. It's just RIDIC. Sat Sep 15 10:16:21 -0700 2007 2942780 19518 rockandroller1 4 2944410 Chains are PACKED here every single night while many of the indies, at least in neighborhoods convenient to where I lived, are dead for a variety of reasons. The best/most successful indies here are downtown and it's not a good place to be after dark, plus our weather is SO bad here in the winter, it would be treacherous driving home to the burbs in the late hours when they quit plowing and salting. So I always got jobs close to home and I've always lived in the burbs, thus, if you want to get any customers and make any money, chains are it. I worked at one chain that was new and for the first full year they were on an "unlimited" wait, which meant it would likely be 2 hours or more, and people STILL waited to get in, just because it was a) new and b) a chain. Our Cheesecake Factory has been open for almost 2 years and they are consistently on a one hour wait to this day, even on weeknights. Our Olive Garden around the corner is always on a wait. If you want a lot of customers, you have to work at the chains. I could have gone the old school way and tried to work at specialty, higher end places where service is slower but you make more per table, but there are none of those places in or near any of the burbs I've preferred to live in. I also had a 2nd job most of the time in my 20s and those were almost always at malls, which are in the burbs, so working at a restaurant nearby was convenient as I'd have to hit both places without much of a break inbetween sometimes. There was one chain I really enjoyed working at for most of the time I worked there, and I made pretty good money for a server (the one that was new and always on the 2 hour wait). I really loved it and had a great time. But I got tired of always being on my feet and not having any insurance, so I got an office job. Sat Sep 15 11:41:11 -0700 2007 2944398 19518 rockandroller1 4 2946407 what you describe here can be broken into two basic busines concepts between employer and employee. The first is the process thatthe employer wishes your position to use in performing your position. It's also known as your job. As in every job, it's what yu get paid for. The second is a performance review. The "shopper" arrives and gives feedback. Surveys are a function in everyones' ives these days and Net Promoter Score is the new buzz-word. Every time jfood takes his car in for service, the phone rings with "How'd we do?" order somethng on Amazon "How' we do?" If you do not want to be given a list of items to perform and then have aperformance review your two choices are stay home or start your own business. But guess what, if you start your own biz and you fail in performing for your custos, you are out of business. So focus on doing you job as prescribed by your management, and you will receive appropriate reports from the shoppers. If you can;ttake the feedback, you may want to consider a different position. Sun Sep 16 12:06:31 -0700 2007 2944193 11290 jfood 5 2946658 Perhaps I wasn't clear. I have no problem with the concept of being held to one's job duties and being subject to review. In fact, I understand the concept of them pushing you to have a high check average just like in retail you are given a daily and monthly sales goal. In every other retail or restaurant job I've had, you discuss things like this in private, periodic meetings with the manager. People might be pointed out/singled out for, say, having the highest sales of the month, but I think watching someone's every move and not given them credit on "reading" the customer and when it's right to say and do certain things and when it would be irritating or stupid, and then punishing them for exercising this kind of judgment and putting it up in a report for all to see is a dumb way to manage employees. You're welcome to disagree with me of course, it's just my opinion and I"m only mentioning the whole process to people because most people don't know about it and sometimes get confused or irritated when the server is pushing junk on them that seems completely out of left field. I have a problem with a) a "review" or steps that relate to one's performance being handled in a publicly humiliating manner and b) the steps being ridiculous and nonsensical given what you're doing. If people are drinking beer, you shouldn't have to specifically suggest wines, for example, or risk public humiliation. I've had more jobs than probably anyone, and I've never encountered any other job outside of that particular establishment's where your review process or something related to your review was done in a public manner, positive or negative. If I meet with my manager and I'm getting a raise and nobody else is, she doesn't gather everyone together and say look, this person did better than everyone else, she gets a raise and you don't, let's give her a round of applaus. And I did take a different position, as soon as I could. Sun Sep 16 14:10:21 -0700 2007 2946407 19518 rockandroller1 6 2946780 RR1, you are being diplomatic. You were perfectly clear. jfood, the problem is that a good server is attentive to the customer's needs. Sounds like chain restaurants are forcing the server to REDUCE the quality of service in order to possibly increase sales. As if there were any doubt that the management at those places hadn't already sold their souls to the devil. Let's say a regular comes in for a meal. Let's say the server knows the customer well enough to know that he/she is has a religious objection to eating pork and is deathly alergic to nuts. What's the point of pitching the peanut-sauced pork potstickers? Worse, what if the server knows the customer is in recovery? Is a long and enticing pitch for icy, delicious, refreshing margaritas appropriate? But if I understand correctly, management will penalize the server for not trying to upsell the customer to these items. That's insulting to the server and the customer. In the latter case, I'd go so far to say that it's immoral. As for employers who publicly shame servers who have the independence and character to actually put the customer before the orders of a soulless corporate hack, I certainly hope they get all the success such a business model deserves. Sun Sep 16 15:01:26 -0700 2007 2946658 58743 alanbarnes 7 2947063 Thanks, Alan. Having worked there, I think they're getting their punishment already. Sun Sep 16 17:01:42 -0700 2007 2946780 19518 rockandroller1 7 2950392 understood all the points, but let's take reality versus theoretical. the "shopper" is the one perfroming the review, not a regular with the nut allergy or in recovery. so this unknown party ventures in and sits at the table. the server does not know the person. does not know the allergies, does not know the recovery. so therefore everything is open for sale. and their job is to sell to the newbie what management wants to sell. How is that different from the server having to push specials that the kitchen has too many of, i.e pickled Yak brains. server who sells the most gets a $20 bonus. stock brokers are long in a stock, sell it, the purple cardigan with orange stripes, get them out the door. The server at a chain is a salesperson, nature of the beast. not pretty but that's the reality. as for the manager who "publicly" humiliates employees in front of others, jfood does not agree with this at all, but if jfood was humiliated at one meeting he would sure as shooting make sure his name ain't on the top 10 bad scores the following week. and let's remember its a chain resto, one in which everything is a formula, from the greeting to the menu design to the server's pitch, to the...everything. you take a job in a chain resto you better understand the gig and either reject the offer, deal with it or move on. It ain't a pretty conclusion but reality of the job is the reality of the job. good news jfood does not eat in chains so does not support anything they purport. Mon Sep 17 17:32:22 -0700 2007 2946780 11290 jfood 1 2944501 This is an interesting topic. I have seen this practice from at least two sides. One, being a cook in many restaurants, and two, being a restaurant owner. As an employee in the kitchen, the split meant two things, first was the (small) amount of time to split the order on to two plates, the next being that there will now be an extra dish to wash. Not that big of a deal, but I knew the waitress was probably going to be tipped less, and if it was the kind of place where waitstaff shared tips with the kitchen, then I knew I was going to get less as well. But as a cook I really didn't care, except that as employees, we want our place to do well so they can afford to give out raises. As an owner, there are a few takes I have on it. We do like to have some formula, such as we know that every customer who comes in equates to $10 for example. As was previously posted, a split means that a two top that should equate to $20 only brings in $10. It's not the end of the world, but it's not what we intended, Now for those with light appetites, I have no problem with a split. Or even an adult with a child, I can see as well, and I can not see nor have I ever charged a fee for a split, even though it means someone is going to have to wash a plate that didn't generate the expected income. Old folks on a budget I can see as well, no problem there. But the worst (in my eyes) are the flat out cheapskates. They will generally pull up in a lexus or some other nice expensive car. When offered a drink they will ask for water. Upon bringing water to the table, they will ask for some lemons. Fine, ok, here's some lemon slices. While you are giving them time to look the menu over they each grab the sugar dispenser and proceed to make "At the table lemonade". You can almost be certain there is going to be a split, and most probably it will be the least expensive item on the menu. These people are also the one's that will run a food server in circles chasing after all sorts of stuff. It's annoying, but it's just part of dealing with the general public. We still smile and give great service even though it's almost a given there will be no tip. Of course we now know how it is they could afford that giant Caddy Escalade. Upon a return visit they will be treated kindly, but might not get as much personal attention as a regular who eats well and is generous in return for great service. Sat Sep 15 12:32:03 -0700 2007 2839816 35433 Barbecue Joe 2 2944637 I know the water-lemonade people. They were always there on all you can eat rib night at one joint I worked at. They make you run and run and run and refill their rib orders and water like 8 billion times, and it's always one at a time - now he wants some more. Now she does. Now he does. Then they leave you like 8 cents. Infuriating. Sometimes though, they were the people that came in with the kids on free kids meal night and split the entree (this was when it was still allowed). They didn't come in a Lexus and they weren't wearing Lexus clothes. And often, they wouldn't even leave enough for the meal (didn't count on the tax, people?), so you not only get stiffed, you have to make up the difference out of your pocket. And their kids left HORRIBLE messes under the table of bits of crayon wrapper and sugar and salt and cracker crumbs, and by the time you'd finished wiping and hokeying, they closed your section. Thanks for coming in! I feel bad that they're poor but you know, I was poor too. I was on welfare a lot of the time I waited tables and I didn't go to places I didn't know I could afford (and when I did, unfortunately I used plastic, which furthered the problem, but that's another story). With the $15 they had to spend on din, they'd have been better off getting takeout pizza or going to McDonald's, where no tip is expected. Sat Sep 15 13:46:26 -0700 2007 2944501 19518 rockandroller1 1 2974112 i think that may have just been a case of a grumpy waiter. now, i usually fall into the ordering way to much catagory... but there has been occassion when my sister and i will simply go from rest. to rest. sampling apps or specialty dishes. (usually in NYC) i have never had an issue with a waiter. we never ask for the kitchen to split a plate though... just dont feel the need. we always leave a good tip...my money.. my stomach. i say do what makes you happy! coconutgoddess http://coconutgoddess.typepad.com/foiedevie/ Tue Sep 25 09:39:50 -0700 2007 2839816 129108 coconutgoddess 1 2974811 I, too, do this a lot with my dining companions (heck, sometimes we'd split one app & one entree if we know the restaurant is generous with portions or if we are planning on splitting a dessert too) - but usually we'd just ask for an extra plate rather than splitting to save the kitchen the hassle of doing the plating. It's a perfectly reasonable thing to do, we have small appetites and we'd rather not waste extra money on more-than-enough food (yes we can doggie bag, but it never tastes as good re-heated). And no, we don't tip extra to compensate for the phantom dishes that we didn't order. I'm guessing your waiter had a bad day otherwise, regardless, he really is no place to judge you for this. ~H.C. http://la-oc-foodie.blogspot.com Tue Sep 25 12:02:36 -0700 2007 2839816 11949 AquaW 1 2975332 I'm on the side of this is okay sometimes, but I don't think it is appropriate to do at a high end restaurant. I think of dining out at a nice restuarant as an evening's entertainment - not simply a meal to fill (or not fill) my belly. I think people should save the economizing (both monetary and wasitline wise) for non-fancy places. Just my humble opinion. Tue Sep 25 13:44:34 -0700 2007 2839816 73862 kireland 2 2975366 Are you speaking in just regards to the entree? I agree at a very fine restaurant it's a bit awkward/uncomfortable to split an entree. We don't do this...we generally only split entrees at lunch or in more casual places. That said, there's no way my husband and i can eat our way through three or four courses of typical restaurant portions and enjoy them even with tasting menus I get really stuffed by course four or five. For this reason even in high end dining we'll often split an app, a dessert and often a soup or salad as well...while each ordering an entree. For us it's not economizing but we want to get the most out of our meal experience wise...by splitting the smaller courses we can taste more of the chef's menu and enjoy it. It's hard to enjoy food when you're overstuffed or past your hunger being completely sated. We've never received any bad service or attitude by doing this(this in spite of the fact my husband is also a non-drinker and I never have more than two glasses of wine so while our food tab always falls in the "normal" range our bar bil is always much lower than average). Tue Sep 25 13:54:06 -0700 2007 2975332 16406 ziggylu 2 2975413 I respect your right to your opinion...mine is, I totally disagree. People should order what they wish and needn't explain their reasons regardless of how fancy or expensive a restaurant is. Tue Sep 25 14:05:51 -0700 2007 2975332 80141 ccbweb 3 2975476 While I expect that a restaurant can do whatever it darned well pleases, I woudn't go back to a restaurant that: -charged me $7.50 to share a plate, -has a server who told me they were 'watching' me to see that I didn't take a bite of my companion's food, -or otherwise intruded into my meal in an attempt to make me do anything other than exactly what I wanted to do when it came to eating in their establishment. If no one is getting hurt, and I'm paying their prices and generously tipping their servers, they can certainly try to make me feel intimidated, or overcharge me, or give me tiny bits of food for high prices, or rush me out the door, or otherwise make my dining experience a bad one......but I certainly won't go back. Tue Sep 25 14:18:27 -0700 2007 2975413 11104 dolores 2 2976283 people should be able to order what they wish and where they wish. ifthe resto has an issue, set a policy and place on the menu and let the forces of the free economy dictate whether they have made a good business decision. Tue Sep 25 18:17:50 -0700 2007 2975332 11290 jfood 3 2976373 Precisely, jfood. And maybe Adam Smith's "Invisible Hand" will someday get a grip on Las Vegas, the most artificial economy in the world, where breathtaking prices and impersonal service seemingly have deterred no one. "A fool and his money are soon partying." (Although I recall you and I share an affinity for the MGM Grand, jfood!) Veg Tue Sep 25 18:41:17 -0700 2007 2976283 57170 Veggo 4 2976428 every now and then jfood's chicago training comes out. then again with the level of comps many people on this board expect the idea of no free lunch is being tested. Tue Sep 25 18:57:56 -0700 2007 2976373 11290 jfood 1 2975599 Okay, so here is an interesting twist to this topic. My sister (not a true "foodie," but does enjoy food and dining out) had a gastric bypass 4 1/2 years ago. She can eat most everything now, just smaller portions. She sometimes would take food home (typically not a formal, fancy restaurant), depending on what the food was. Sometimes her husband would "help her out" and finish off the leftovers. Her husband had a gastric bypass last month. Down 40 pounds and more to go. Still not back to eating a normal array of foods and will never be able to eat the quantity he once did. We are already joking about what they will do about ordering when they eat out. Every time they go out should they have to mumble "gastric bypass patients, both of us?" Or do they just hope that they do not get a "death stare" from the waitstaff from either ordering just appetizers or splitting a dinner? Fortunately, they both do have senses of humor and my sister is quite proud of how she has kept off the 120 pounds or so, not easy to do whether weight loss is via diet or whether it is via surgery. Tue Sep 25 14:50:09 -0700 2007 2839816 117292 Shayna Madel 2 5159662 I had 80% of my stomach removed in June when they found a cancerous polyp, so I fall into the same category eating-wise. I didn't have a huge appetite before and have often ordered my favorite appetizers or a dinner salad in the past. I've never gotten the impression that it was a problem from the waitstaff. Now that I'm able to go out again, I've done the same thing, or gone to my usual spots where they know my habits. At least now I can tell them I have an excuse for a small appetite. And this has been a very informative thread from the part of those who have waited tables! Thu Nov 05 17:50:21 -0800 2009 2975599 237929 tracylee 1 2978103 What do Hounds think about perhaps sitting in the less formal lounge area of a restaurant if you're only going to have appetizers or share a dinner? Wed Sep 26 09:38:25 -0700 2007 2839816 92744 invinotheresverde 2 2978259 I think it's a great idea but basically, diners fall into two categories - those who feel their best interest is #1 and those who dine with a conscience that considers others, be it the restaurant, the server, whatever. Neither is "right" or "wrong," I've just seen it both ways. Customers like #1 will sit wherever they want to sit and feel they're entitled to the same service, as paying, polite, decent tipping customers as others doing the same, and I'm not saying their wrong or right, again. Customers like the latter will consider what they think may be nicer or "right" in their minds and make a choice they feel is more considerate (to the restaurant or waitstaff) while still enjoying a meal out. I fall into the 2nd category, as does Mr. Rockandroller, both of us having long toiled in restaurants, and so we would likely sit in the bar if we were going to just get apps or split an entree, which I think is a great suggestion. Usually if we're going to do something like that we just order takeout. Wed Sep 26 10:11:44 -0700 2007 2978103 19518 rockandroller1 3 2978337 I can understand your opinion, given your background/life experience, but there are some people who want the experience of dining in the restaurant-proper, not just the bar, and who cannot eat a full meal, as witness my sister and her husband, both post-gastric bypass. Granted, they are not the norm, but the waitstaff has no way to know this and should not assume the worst when a couple doesn't order two full "soup to nuts" meals and likely no alcohol. I was raised in retail and learned to treat all customers with respect and patience, even if they were idiots ruminating for 15 minutes at the counter over a 25-cent yard of lace or were trying to return a 6-month old toaster without a receipt. That worked for my family business for 50 years. Unfortunately, sometimes you just have to deal with people. Wed Sep 26 10:27:52 -0700 2007 2978259 117292 Shayna Madel 2 2978309 If a restaurant has one and if we feel like being less formal that night, sure. It's not a solution (of course, I don't think there's a problem to begin with here) though because, if the restaurant offers the same menu in the "lounge" and the "dining room" then aren't you just depriving the restaurant of their sales and the server of their percentage tip just the same? Wed Sep 26 10:20:51 -0700 2007 2978103 80141 ccbweb 3 2978371 I wouldn't agree to it, because it smacks of discrimination to me. Based on what exactly am I being asked to segregate myself from the 'better' diners? I don't usually order entrees in a restaurant since I am on a diet for life. I do, however, order two appetizers for appetizer and entree. Plus a drink, plus a dessert, usually. Bottom line, this goes back to some of my deal breakers for restaurants -- I don't want to be told what to do, how to eat, or how fast to eat. And being told where to SIT is certainly a no-go. Wed Sep 26 10:33:09 -0700 2007 2978309 11104 dolores 4 2978512 I agree; you shouldn't be told where to sit. I was just mentioning an idea. I guess I just think along the same lines as rockandroller. If I'm not having a dinner, I'd sit in the lounge or at the bar out of courtesy to the waitstaff in the dining room. Or, perhaps I'd feel uncomfortable/tacky being looked at as a "bad table". I'm not really sure. I guess I fall more into the "customer number two" category rockandroller had mentioned. Wed Sep 26 11:01:28 -0700 2007 2978371 92744 invinotheresverde 2 2979951 It depends. When traveling solo on biz do it all the time. sometimes, jfood does not want to though and would like a table and feels he deserves a table. Here's a question though, how would the resto feel about giving the lounge eater a 10-20% discount for not taking up what they perceive as valuable real estate? http://jfoodonfood.blogspot.com/ Wed Sep 26 16:42:21 -0700 2007 2978103 11290 jfood 1 2978335 Wolfgang Puck in the last article I read from him on his restaurant CUT, he said that diners in America should order different appetizers to taste more item's and then split an entree. They actually don't recommend one steak per person at CUT, they recommend sharing and getting multiple sides etc. Wed Sep 26 10:27:28 -0700 2007 2839816 74154 irishkevbo 1 2978574 Three of us had dinner at Babbo a couple of weeks ago. Our server actually suggested sharing entrees...we ordered accordingly, no muss, no fuss. Yum Wed Sep 26 11:15:33 -0700 2007 2839816 83375 pfarrell 1 2989189 I guess we are savages down here in Texas. I never heard of a charge to split a plate. If I saw that on a menu, I would immediately leave for another place. I have had gastric bypass surgery and still love the taste of food but can just eat a very small amount. I will not pay for something that I am not going to enjoy. Sat Sep 29 17:39:10 -0700 2007 2839816 83659 randyjl 1 3765169 I know it seems tacky to charge for splits, but if the menu states that they reserve the right to charge a split charge and the wait person lets you know ahead then depending on what is ordered it should be understandable. For instance, I don't think restaurants should charge on salads or app's - just dinners. Some dinners can be split with out losing it's asthetic appeal some can't. That said, most customers don't understand the reasons behind the charge. Are they forgetting that more dishes are being washed which means more water, electricity and etc.. Why is the restaurant punished for large portions, the customer still takes the excess home with them, which becomes an extra meal for them not the restaurant and if the price is right then everyone wins! I know times are tough but anyone who seriously has a problem with a measley 2 or 3$ charge shouldn't be eating out. Make your own dinner, serve your self, clean up your own mess and use your own electricity and water, and see if you enjoy it as much! Especially when the restaurant you choose has excellent food, great service, and more food than you can possibly eat but can enjoy again and possibly again! If the food stinks, service sucks and you get one pea on your plate then that's reason for complaints. Don't you think? Just my opinion, what do you think? Mon Jun 09 18:21:55 -0700 2008 2839816 199376 Karbear 1 3765255 It's America...you can order as little or as much as you want. The joys of living in a democracy. Mon Jun 09 18:54:51 -0700 2008 2839816 18011 Jacey 2 3765402 sure you can, and that's great! If you get more than you pay for w/o the split charge then that's beyond democracy with or w/o split charges! Mon Jun 09 19:39:21 -0700 2008 3765255 199376 Karbear 1 5159470 Ok, everyone needs to read the question before you decide to polute the gene pool by making an idiot out of the general public. The question is: Is it improper to only order one entree and slip it?.. My answer would be NO. You are paying for the meal, you have the right to decide how the meal is eaten. By you or shared. The only way it is improper to only order one and split it with another person is if you're ordering an 'All you can eat buffet". Dark Fairy Thu Nov 05 16:28:46 -0800 2009 2839816 1122098 darkfairy 1 5159542 If I detected a disapproving vibe from my server because of my order, he certainly would not be receiving a 20% tip. Thu Nov 05 16:59:32 -0800 2009 2839816 11995 pikawicca 1 5159587 From my perspective, you're the customer and splitting a single entree is your choice, regardless of whether you've ordered two apps or ten. Some places charge for the split, as is explainable by another post in this topic (especially when the kitchen does the split and it comes out like two separate but smaller plates). If that's what they do, I wouldn't take issue. I DO have a negative reaction to split plate charges when nothing special is done except bringing an extra empty plate to the table. Splitting, in general, and especially at unusually special restaurants can only make the experience better. We recently had the opportunity to dine at The French Laundry, in Yountville, and sharing was actually suggested by the wait staff. This is a tasting menu, but not ridiculously tiny portions, and our server suggested that we share every course that had more than one option. Incredible experience! Changed my Chow 5 favorite restaurants profile the next day. Thu Nov 05 17:14:24 -0800 2009 2839816 11405 Midlife 1 5174621 I haven't had any surgery, and neither has my wife, but (we're from Toronto), we are always amazed at the sheer size of portions offered in the US. A 32-oz ribeye? I can't finish a 12-oz one at home, and at the restaurant, as others have pointed out, we want to try the appetizers and some vegetables as well. I mean, when a guy brings me out a 16-oz steak and a 16-oz baked potato that's loaded with butter and sour cream, how can I possible enjoy all of it, plus soup and salad and the mushrooms or broccoli or whatever? Sometimes, when we travel, we stay at hotels with kitchenettes, and I don't feel bad about taking food home. (I remember one time in Chicago, we had wonderful steak from the night before with fresh eggs from the buffet downstairs.) But often, we staying at smaller places that don't have refrigerators or microwaves, so what's the point of taking it home? In those cases, there might be a somewhat lengthy discussion as we decide what to share. All that said, I don't mind a reasonable charge for sharing - say 10-20% of the entree's price, but I expect a little extra on my plate. Carnegie Deli has long had a "$X charge for sharing" on their menu, but when I saw the couple next to me do it, they didn't get a half sandwich on each plate - they got two separate but smaller sandwiches. The restaurant had to use more ingredients, take more time, wash more dishes. Seemed a reasonable charge to me. And just to muddy the waters - do the restaurants charge extra if four people share a bottle of wine, a basket of wings, or a plate of nachos? Why are the entrees so different? Wed Nov 11 20:15:34 -0800 2009 2839816 1104506 FrankD 1 5174704 Isn't it expected that a diner in the main dining room will order an entree? Wed Nov 11 21:09:33 -0800 2009 2839816 92744 invinotheresverde 2 5174727 No. Wed Nov 11 21:23:12 -0800 2009 5174704 24055 Atahualpa 3 5175556 I disagree. I don't think an appetizer, cocktail, dessert, etc. is expected, but I believe a dinner is. Feel free to think whatever you like. Thu Nov 12 08:29:56 -0800 2009 5174727 92744 invinotheresverde 2 5175930 Nope. Someone sitting in a restaurant can order as they desire. If there is some enforced rule on minimums then it should be stated. You will find LOTS of people and posts about a 2 app dinner, or 2 apps and a shared entree. Now you can place the normal response that people state..."at my restaurant this has never happened in 20 years." Don't you hate it when everyone is so predictable? :-)) Thu Nov 12 10:09:50 -0800 2009 5174704 11290 jfood 3 5176080 Oh, it happens. I just think it's tacky. Thu Nov 12 10:47:56 -0800 2009 5175930 92744 invinotheresverde 4 5176155 yeah, jfood canunderstand that position, but jfood absolutely cannot go near the "it's tacky" standard. No different than walking into a high end retail store and buying a pair of socks. Every table and every customer does not maximize the bill. Jfood remembers something about the "law of large numbers". Ciao Thu Nov 12 11:14:06 -0800 2009 5176080 11290 jfood 5 5176939 This analogy is flawed because a shopper that goes in to buy a pair of socks or even just browses isn't preventing another shopper from buying an entire outfit. Thu Nov 12 15:04:32 -0800 2009 5176155 10195 KTinNYC 6 5177130 whatever. how's this. when a customer enters a store or a restaurant it is completely up to the customer to decide what to buy. Thu Nov 12 16:26:15 -0800 2009 5176939 11290 jfood 4 5176555 Why? Sometimes, you're not that hungry. Sometimes two diners are having a full meal while the third person had a huge family lunch late int the afternoon and can't eat as much. There are tons of such reasonable situations. Doesn't the restaurant want my business? If you're so busy you can't afford the table, put up sign or a note on the menu, or a minimum charge. Otherwise, I don't feel there is such an expectation. Thu Nov 12 13:13:35 -0800 2009 5176080 24055 Atahualpa 5 5176652 If you're not that hungry, why would you go out to eat? EDIT: Edited to add that I'm talking about high-end places. Obviously, splitting a pizza isn't a big deal. Thu Nov 12 13:41:43 -0800 2009 5176555 92744 invinotheresverde 6 5176736 long day nothing in house stores are closed do not feel like cooking want some down time want to be waited on do not want to do the dishes in the mood for french etc Thu Nov 12 13:59:10 -0800 2009 5176652 11290 jfood 7 5176771 Blah. You go to a restaurant because you're hungry. Thu Nov 12 14:07:50 -0800 2009 5176736 92744 invinotheresverde 8 5176778 yeah, imagine dem tamatoes. jfood has gone to restaurants when he was not hungry as well. Thu Nov 12 14:09:30 -0800 2009 5176771 11290 jfood 9 5176804 That's completely illogical to me. ;) Thu Nov 12 14:17:23 -0800 2009 5176778 92744 invinotheresverde 6 5176835 I've ended up out with groups where *they* were hungry but I wasn't really. Given the surrounding circumstances I wasn't going to say, "Oh, I'll just sit outside and wait for you all ... ms invinotheresverde would think I'm tacky if i don't order an entree". Thu Nov 12 14:28:24 -0800 2009 5176652 111910 jgg13 7 5177000 As I noted above, I'm talking about high-end restaurants. You'd go to a fancy/expensive/insert adjective of choice here place when you weren't hungry? That boggles the mind. If not everyone was eating, I'd suggest to my friends that we sit in the bar area, at the very least, where ordering food may not be expected quite so much. Thu Nov 12 15:30:07 -0800 2009 5176835 92744 invinotheresverde 8 5177067 I wasn't talking about Chilis with 3 of my buddies, but rather work related affairs and that sort of thing. Now that you mention it though, there have been a few times that I can think of where reservations were made with a group, but by the time the date came up i wasn't working with the same sort of budget that I thought I would be and have skimped due to $$$. That's not very common though, I was mainly talking about the former case. At the end of the day though, unless a place has a stated policy regarding what one must order, the decision is mine and mine alone. Thu Nov 12 16:00:43 -0800 2009 5177000 111910 jgg13 9 5177624 Of course it's your decision. No place is going to force you to order specific things (unless they have a minimum). For example, there were two idiots who came into my restaurant about a month ago, during the Saturday night rush. They each had a glass of wine...and that's it. They nursed the wine and took up the table for a good hour. We let them enjoy their wine, but the waiter and the managers were seething. Anyhow, I know my opinion isn't the popular one. I guess it's just something I would never, ever think of doing, as I believe there's an exoectation that each diner will purchase an entree. And neither would my husband. It's just so emasculating. Thu Nov 12 20:26:19 -0800 2009 5177067 92744 invinotheresverde 10 5190104 Right, your opinion sounds like the greedy owner's "reasoning." Restaurants are there to provide the diner with an enjoyable experience when s/he orders what they want. I would have no issues going into any restaurant and only ordering an app and a drink (iced tea) or a dessert or anything on the small side. Tue Nov 17 17:34:57 -0800 2009 5177624 18011 Jacey 11 5190497 I'm not an owner, nor does it have anything much to do with me as a sommelier. Not every restaurant and every diner are a good fit. You wouldn't be a good fit at my restaurant and we wouldn't be a good fit for you. Perfect solution. Tue Nov 17 21:29:54 -0800 2009 5190104 92744 invinotheresverde 8 5177141 There have been times when jfood had a business lunch and mrs jfood was hungry. They went to a high end place. Mrs jfood had a salad and an entree and jfood had an onion soup. Thu Nov 12 16:29:22 -0800 2009 5177000 11290 jfood 9 5177617 I had written a snarky comment, but I deleted it. I will just agree to disagree (not like we've disagreed before). Thu Nov 12 20:19:58 -0800 2009 5177141 92744 invinotheresverde 10 5178106 nah...jfood and you will continue in the ying-yang Fri Nov 13 05:23:40 -0800 2009 5177617 11290 jfood 10 5181645 You forgot "never", I believe... Sat Nov 14 13:25:02 -0800 2009 5177617 137946 Scargod 8 5177340 Can't understand why your mine boggles. You make an appointment to go out with a group of friends, your wife is looking forward to it, and your boss takes you out unexpectedly for lunch that day. You go, order, intending to eat just a bit, but the food is unexpectedly good and you finish it all. By the time you get home, you're not all that hungry, but your wife is all dolled up and looking at you expectantly. The responses "We're not going" or "I'm not going" would not go over in my household (well, not without a minor nuclear explosion). Besides, I WANT TO SEE my friends. So, I'd go, and maybe order two apps, one to be served with the others' apps, and one to be served with their entrees. And if the restaurant doesn't like it, they can lump it. Thu Nov 12 17:46:59 -0800 2009 5177000 1104506 FrankD 9 5177615 If I knew I was going out for dinner that evening, I wouldn't pig out at lunch, so this isn't a problem for me. Thu Nov 12 20:18:44 -0800 2009 5177340 92744 invinotheresverde 10 5178015 Well then you wouldn't be having a full meal at the restaurant at lunch with the boss. I certainly can't put away a restaurant sized app and entree twice in 5 hours. Fri Nov 13 03:31:07 -0800 2009 5177615 24055 Atahualpa 11 5178735 Lunch portions and dinner portions are almost always different sizes. Also, who gets appetizers at lunch? Fri Nov 13 09:10:07 -0800 2009 5178015 92744 invinotheresverde 12 5180559 It was a Chinese spot, and he ordered a communal bowl of soup for the four of us. It was really good. Then he ordered a bunch of dishes, and although I wanted to be modest, they were really good too. I'm not that big of an eater at the best of times, and after that escapade, I really wasn't in the mood for another full dinner within six hours. But I wanted to see my friends, so I went. It's OK with me that you don't live your life like that, but don't sneer at the millions of us that do. Fri Nov 13 21:29:28 -0800 2009 5178735 1104506 FrankD 13 5181317 I said that me, myself, invinotheresverde, would never not order an entree. You order whatever you want. And I can sneer all I want, as this is an opinion board. Sorry if you don't like it. Sat Nov 14 10:23:25 -0800 2009 5180559 92744 invinotheresverde 14 5182418 Don't let the mods find out. Sat Nov 14 20:44:08 -0800 2009 5181317 1104506 FrankD 15 5183044 ? Sun Nov 15 08:56:11 -0800 2009 5182418 92744 invinotheresverde 10 5178436 My wife and I eat out a lot, usually mid- to high-end. We're always thrilled to find a place where we can order an appetizer, entree, and dessert, eat all three, and not feel bloated. But that rarely happens in the US, as the portions are so damned large. In many cases a single appetizer includes so much food that we're full afterward (a heaping dinner plate full of fried calamari comes to mind as one that I've encountered all too often). Our solution in places where we really like the food - and you can call it tacky if you like, but I think you're being closed-minded in doing so - is to order a couple of apps apiece, or two apps and one entree to share. Scale your portions down to a reasonable size and we'll gladly order two or three courses each. Fri Nov 13 07:36:09 -0800 2009 5177615 14386 BobB 4 5177153 Based on what I've seen people order in restaurants over the years, you are in the minority. People order what they feel like eating -- sometimes that's a lot, sometimes it's not. No biggie. Thu Nov 12 16:33:54 -0800 2009 5176080 11995 pikawicca 5 5177213 Unfortunately for my waistline it usually seems to be the "a lot" option for me. :) Thu Nov 12 16:58:26 -0800 2009 5177153 111910 jgg13 1 5177828 At an expensive upscale restaurant, yes, it's improper to only order one entree and split it. If you're saving calories, I think it's OK to not order apps. If you're doing it to save on cost maybe you should go to inexpensive casual restaurants. They usually don't have issues with diners splitting an entree. Classy upscale restaurants won't give you attitude but I'm sure they won't be happy if you do that. Thu Nov 12 22:13:27 -0800 2009 2839816 69044 hsk 2 5177969 Really? So I guess when my wife and I ate at Guy Savoy in Las Vegas and ordered two apps (one of which was a supplement due to Alba truffles), two bottles of wine, shared an entree and then had 2 desserts plus coffee and digestifs that was inappropriate? Hunh. I guess our Captain was just feigning pleasantness while inside he was seething. Fri Nov 13 01:08:24 -0800 2009 5177828 198245 a213b 2 5178446 You are absolutely wrong on that - it's the upscale places that are usually most gracious about it. And we don't do it to save on cost - we do it so that we can taste several dishes instead of getting full to the point of bloating trying to finish one oversized entree. I'll happily pay for three courses when I know that they're appropriately sized. Fri Nov 13 07:40:25 -0800 2009 5177828 14386 BobB 2 5178477 Got it... The jfoods are going out to dinner and want to spend $60-70. Choice 1 - A nice place and order 2 apps and an entree to split. Jfoods happy, restaurant not as happy; Choice 2 - An inexpensive casual place and order 2 apps and 2 entrees; restaurant happy, jfoods not as happy Jfood can think of all sorts of reason to choose Choice 1. Anyone who states they would choice Choice 2 is kidding themselves. Fri Nov 13 07:48:57 -0800 2009 5177828 11290 jfood 3 5178604 I wasn't referring to two people splitting an entree who spend as much as two people each having their own entree. We share 3-4 apps all the time for dinner, but we also have a bottle of wine and of course we never get attitude and the establishment is happy to have our business. I was reponding to OP's statement "...gotten into the habit of ordering a couple of appetizers and then splitting an entree, mainly to save on calories ... but sometimes to save on cost as well." I took that to mean 2 people spending less that what two people normally would. Fri Nov 13 08:26:22 -0800 2009 5178477 69044 hsk 4 5178745 to be clear. jfood does not feel that he needs to "spend as much as two people each having their own entree" to go to a restaurant. If the "normal" table at a restaurant has 2 apps, 2 entrees, 1 dessert and a bottle of wine, and jfood wants 2 apps, 1 entree, 2 sodas, no dessert, no wine, then that is his choice. If a restaurant wants to set a minimum on dishes or price they can, and then jfood can decide whether to eat there. But jfood is not going to choose Choice 2 over Choice 1 above unless absolutely forced to. Fri Nov 13 09:12:19 -0800 2009 5178604 11290 jfood 4 5178755 "...mainly to save on calories ... but sometimes to save on cost as well." That seems to be why people do it at my work. Of course, it's not like I ask the waiters to ask them why they're splitting. But a split table is usually a much lower check in general, not just for the lack of a missing entree. Fri Nov 13 09:14:28 -0800 2009 5178604 92744 invinotheresverde 5 5190110 If an individual who owns a restaurant has so many issues with how and what people order, then it's probably the wrong business for them. Restaurants should be happy to see customers come in these days and spend any money eating out during these tough economic times. Tue Nov 17 17:39:04 -0800 2009 5178755 18011 Jacey 6 5190504 The restaurant I work at is mobbed constantly. We're not hurting for business, nor have we been for the last thirty years. Just because the economy is slow, it doesn't mean the customer can do whatever he pleases. We wouldn't serve someone just dessert during the dinner rush, as we need that table; there's a two hour wait for it. Tue Nov 17 21:32:37 -0800 2009 5190110 92744 invinotheresverde 7 5190526 Let say I walk in, get seated, read over the menu and then order just an appetizer or two, and a pot of tea deciding on a light dinner before the theatre. Or I come in, read the menu, decide I'm still full from lunch and nothing really struck my fancy anyways and then order a slice of cake and a double 12-yr Talisker. You'd throw me out? I can see politely suggesting you can't accommodate the diner who says up front they only want dessert or only want an appetizer. However, what if they don't decide on that until after they've been seated and read the menu? I know I have gone into places fully intending on a full meal and then only after being seated and reading the menu did I decide to have much less than I originally planned. This is especially true when travelling – it is dinner time, this is a place I wanted to try while in town, I really, really wanted to try it and I intend to order a full meal, but, after settling down, I realize I'm only hungry for a app, a salad, a drink and maybe a small dessert (which I'll decide upon after the app, salad, and the drink). You guys would turn me away at this point in the meal? I have never experienced that. I am usually a very calm, unflappable person, but, that would probably leave me very upset. I really am simply curious about this. I hope not to sound upset. I just can't imagine the actualities of this. What if it is a party of two and one person is going to order a full meal but the other plans to only have an app. Where is the line? How to do go about turning them away after they've already been seated and served drinks? Tue Nov 17 21:46:11 -0800 2009 5190504 24055 Atahualpa 8 5190563 Once people are seated, of course they're not asked to leave. Notes about their dining experience are logged into OpenTable. Next time they try to make reservation, we may only have 4:30 and 10:30 available. Tue Nov 17 22:27:32 -0800 2009 5190526 92744 invinotheresverde 8 5190631 I think if you're a normal, considerate person and you decided after reading the menu that you only wanted a slice of cake and a double 12-yr Talisker at a place that is full you'd probably finish it quickly and leave. If the place is only 1/2 full it would be fine to linger over the little that you're having, it's not like they need the table for other diners. If you made a reservation to have a slice of cake and a drink I think you'd be very inconsiderate, it's easy to peruse the menu online to see if you really want to go there for dinner before you take up spots that other diners might have wanted. The OP was asking about expensive upscale restaurants. They always take reservations and allow a couple of hours between seatings so if it's a busy place a "dessert and drink" table would really hurt. I don't think it's reasonable to go to a place like that and scrimp, as I said upthread, if you want to save money, go to an inexpensive casual place where it's fine to just have an app and drinks, people line up so it's not a big deal, they make it on the multiple seatings. Tue Nov 17 23:49:33 -0800 2009 5190526 69044 hsk 9 5190799 saving money is not the only reason to eat a light meal Wed Nov 18 05:05:54 -0800 2009 5190631 135229 thew 10 5190923 No, saving money isn't the only reason to eat a light meal, but with check averages of diners sharing an entree being much lower than normal tables (not lower due to one fewer entree, but lower overall), it certainly seems like it. Wed Nov 18 06:21:50 -0800 2009 5190799 92744 invinotheresverde 8 5191380 If you routinely go into the kind of restaurant where people have, say an 8:00 reservation that lasts about two hours, and order only a drink and a dessert, I think that's inconsiderate. A salad and an appetizer, somewhat less so. Probably only really inappropriate if you are at a destination restaurant, but hopefully you don't do it every day of the week, or if you do you ask if it's OK and/or if you should eat at the bar. (I pretty commonly hear people say on arrival, "We just want something light.") It happens to everyone occasionally that they get to a restaurant, like with a group, and find they don't want to have a full meal because of the menu or their budget or diet restrictions or whatever. They get something smaller. But, in general I would think it wouldn't be that hard to figure out, most of the time, what sort sort of meal you are looking for and then pick an appropriate restaurant. At a certain point, it's like you are walking up to a blackjack table and asking to play poker when there is a poker game ten feet away. You can do that, but why? Sure a good restaurant will put up with ANY type of shenanigans from customers and act like they like it. That doesn't remove the responsibilty from customers to be a little considerate and not waste people's time unnecessarily. By the way, I think splitting entrees is nowhere near that point unless you are insisting after they explain why that entree can't be split. Wed Nov 18 08:38:00 -0800 2009 5190526 11250 bibi rose 1 5181468 I think it's a reasonable expectation of a fine dining restaurant that every diner order an entree. Restaurants that want to underscore that policy apply a plate charge to split orders. A plate charge is not "tacky," as some other posters have claimed. Rather, it's a necessity brought on by the tacky behavior of certain customers. A plate charge sets a healthy boundary -- without notice of a plate charge on the menu, a restaurant may resort to the tasteless, difficult business of either informing the customer outright that they may not split a plate, or, worse, simply make the customer feel uncomfortable about doing so. Informal restaurants must accept *any* order from a customer. A place that's economically viable for a "snack" must not shy away from customers who order an appetizer as an entree, split entrees, and the like. Any restaurant that serves portions that are grossly over-sized must be prepared to have people share their food. Sharing food at these places is voting with your money -- a vote that portion sizes are way too large (and they are at many places). Sat Nov 14 11:46:58 -0800 2009 2839816 270888 shaogo 2 5181547 Sahogo, curious to know your thoughts in re the situation I posted up thread. To you, would that type of dinner be unacceptable? If it is acceptable, at what point does the line get drawn? Sat Nov 14 12:37:21 -0800 2009 5181468 198245 a213b 3 5181617 a213b: not unacceptable at all. A nice meal, actually. You had 2 apps, one of them very dear; two bottles of wine, 2 desserts, coffee and drinks over and above the shared entree. I think for the purposes of this thread, I and the other posters are talking about people who're obviously sharing their entree for economy's sake, and are not ordering beverages/desserts etc. as you did. If forced to "draw a line," I'd say that, in a fine dining setting, it's alright for diners to share an entree so long as the other items in their order replace the revenue lost by the failure of one of the diners to order an entree. Sometimes we end up in a restaurant where we find the appetizers far more appealing than what's on the dinner menu. In that case, we'll order 2-3 appetizers each, a couple of salads, perhaps, and dessert and coffee. No entrees. Only once has anyone questioned this. It was an Italian restaurant, white-tablecloth but certainly not Manhattan's finest. We ordered a caesar salad for two and two appetizers each. After the salads and the progression of appetizers (they saw that we were "foodies" so provided lots of extra little plates for sharing tastes of each one) the server approached the table with his order pad, and asked "well, what're you going to have for *dinner*?" We explained that we'd just had our dinner and would like to have dessert and coffee. Our poor waiter looked as if someone in his immediate family had died. He reluctantly took our dessert order. A captain/manager-looking guy cruised by the table and looked at us with a loathing undisguised. After he'd passed by once, he managed a phony "happy face" and came around (before coffee had even been put on the table) to ask if we'd like a cognac with our coffee. His look turned sour but his humor recovered when we asked for two Tuacas. Perhaps the poor guy was bipolar and just didn't know whether he was happy or sad. Someone must've decided that, even though we broke with convention and ordered no entrees, our alcohol/apps/dessert purchases were sufficient for them, because they were all smiles during coffee service and even after we cashed out. We didn't punish the waiter; it was obvious to us that management was pushing him to sell, sell, sell. Sat Nov 14 13:09:38 -0800 2009 5181547 270888 shaogo 4 5181741 Three points before jfood responds: 1 - As scargod states below you should tell of the bias as a restaurant owner; 2 - In your story jfood would gather that the manager got a dose of professionalism versus anything else. 3 - You are dead wrong about what should be replaced in this cockamamie example, it is the profit, not the revenue that the greedy owner would want in your example. So given that people have said the profit margin is 10% how about the customer leave an extra $5 for his last visit ever. Jfood cannot disagree with this position more vehemently. The restaurant has absolutely NO right to demand an app, an entree, a dessert, wine, coffee, or anything else from a customer. Likewise a Mercedes dealer should not expect the Nav system, the Class C package or anything else from a customer. If the restaurant owner has an expectation that EVERY customer will buy four courses, buy the lobster, buy the foie gras, order the $40 supplement truffles order the $250+ wine, then they are in the wrong business. Every customer is different, every order is different every table is different. When a restaurant ever demands such silliness, then jfood will get up and leave. This is so far over the line it cannot be seen in the rear view mirror. Sat Nov 14 14:17:53 -0800 2009 5181617 11290 jfood 5 5181929 >>"The restaurant has absolutely NO right to demand an app, an entree, a dessert, wine, coffee, or anything else from a customer."<< But some restaurants - in fact, some great restaurants - do something pretty close to that. They don't price individual menu items, but instead charge based on the number of courses each customer orders. Starting at three courses. I think the key is disclosure. These places expect each customer to order at least three courses, and the pricing structure is right there on the menu. Those who don't like it can always eat elsewhere. Sat Nov 14 15:45:46 -0800 2009 5181741 58743 alanbarnes 5 5181965 I don't want to beat a dead horse but I find your analogy about the Mercedes dealer flawed. A more apt analogy is that the a C class Mercedes is the equivalent of the prix fixe while the chef's tasting menu is the S class. The dealer has the expectation the customer will buy a vehicle even if it's "only" the C class but a customer that comes into the dealership and just orders the navigation package, the wheel upgrade, and the leather seats would be very unusual. Even if this unusual customer orders $10k of extras there is a loss to the dealer if there is another customer who goes to another dealer because the first dealer is busy. Now if the unusual customer orders $30k in extras then this would be a completely different story. I'm not saying ordering only apps and drinks at a high end restaurant is wrong. If you are there on off hours or on a slow night or if you ask if this is acceptable while making reservations then I think you'd be extremely welcome. But if you make reservations on a busy night and order very little and take up space and time you may not be completely welcome. I'm not saying this is right or wrong but I really see the restaurant and servers POV. For full disclosure I have worked in a bar. Sat Nov 14 16:03:06 -0800 2009 5181741 10195 KTinNYC 6 5182424 OK even steven on analogies. I'm not saying ordering only apps and drinks at a high end restaurant is wrong. - Yes you are because the caveats below mean that person can use the facility when the staff probably wants to take a break. Maybe they should place a hood over their heads and sneak in at 3PM for dinner. Oh Boy that sounds like fun. If you are there on off hours or on a slow night or if you ask if this is acceptable while making reservations then I think you'd be extremely welcome. - "extremely welcome"? Huh? If someone does not order an entree they are therefore not "extremely welcome"? Tell them what when making a reservation? "We are four people but one will not order an entree so please seat us next to the bathroom and give us the server with H1N1. You know we are not really welcome." But if you make reservations on a busy night and order very little and take up space and time you may not be completely welcome. - If the server makes jfood not completely welcome the server will definitely not welcome the crappy tip. jfood on numerous occasions mentioned this self-fulfilling prophesy. OK here's an idea. You order the food at the front door, then the MOD sees the total and then takes you to a table or tells you that you are not welcome. Oh Oh here's a better one. Put a clown head at the entrance to the parking lot, place your order before you park and if it does not include an entree the clown says, "sorry sir you are not welcome here." Betcha that will get the old customer relations departments in high gear. Bottom lne is servers just have to grow up. They are the only retail profession in which EVERY customer leaves them a tip or a commission if they do a reasonable job. Jfood can, and has, spent months on a project and if he is not chosen he and his employer do not make one thin dime. Now every customer MUST order an entree or they are not welcome? Jfood has two words to that and it ain't Happy Birthday. And for full disclosure jfood has been a customer for 50 years. Sat Nov 14 20:48:24 -0800 2009 5181965 11290 jfood 7 5182785 I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on some points. I'm okay with that. No ones mind is going to be changed on this topic, I think. Sun Nov 15 06:15:23 -0800 2009 5182424 10195 KTinNYC 8 5182789 Yup...and the top of the morning to you as well. It does appear the two goal posts are set and others will take positions in between. At least the weather today is better than yesterday. Enjoy your Sunday. Sun Nov 15 06:18:20 -0800 2009 5182785 11290 jfood 8 5182846 What? My mind was changed, or at least altered by jfood's "two words to that and it ain't Happy Birthday." jfood": you're getting so plebeian lately... Sun Nov 15 06:57:29 -0800 2009 5182785 137946 Scargod 9 5183051 who you calling a plebe? :-)) jfood just has a major issue with people reaching into his consumer pocket and demanding he spend. And it drives him nuts when he reads that a restaurant or a server deserve this and that. Merchants decide price and customers decide quantiity. As more and more people loose their jobs, he absolutely resents this sense of entitlement exhibited by some. M&M jfood, and friends over the last couple of dinners, were having conversations on declining service levels, not at restaurants, but just in general. They are beginning to see a strong sense of a significant increase on telling the customer absolutely anything over the last few months. Jfood eats dinners in restaurants almost 200 nights a year and he will continue to act appropriately, treat the staff professionally and order as his stomach and wallet dictate as he has done for 50 years. He will respectfully try to avoid squatting, malingering or causing an issue with turning a table. But when he is told he HAS TO order something, it is snagglepuss time for him. They force him to pay for something he does not want, he invokes the first rule of physics, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Peace Sun Nov 15 09:03:36 -0800 2009 5182846 11290 jfood 10 5183088 I have similar knee-jerk reaction. While I don't come close to the number of meals in restaurants, per year, I go out frequently enough and patronize a wide spectrum of restaurants styles and prices. I think I know what should be expected. I don't know if I see the moral decline of restaurants in a substantive way. I do worry that our morality (in general), is slipping and lies and deviousness are becoming more acceptable. PS: I meant no real jab at you. It seems you are not holding back and being Mr. Nice like so typical in the past. Hope I'm not rubbing off on you and causing manners decline. Sun Nov 15 09:27:11 -0800 2009 5183051 137946 Scargod 4 5181887 jfood and scarGod: Sorry. I didn't identify myself as a restaurateur and should have. I love what you guys have to say and often find myself agreeing enthusiastically with both of you. Which leads me to re-think my opinion on this matter. One can go pretty far up on the very good to fine dining scale, I think, and find places that will neither discourage nor charge for a split entree. There are some places, however, where the customer would be laughed out of the restaurant if they didn't order an entree. We all know which places these are. You prepare to spend a whole lotta money and eat the very finest food. Jfood, we're not on the same wavelength here. I'm merely talking about failing to order an entree. You said "The restaurant has absolutely NO right to demand an app, an entree, a dessert, wine, coffee, or anything else from a customer." You're right! Except for the part about the entree. There is *nothing* wrong with going to *any* restaurant, drinking ice water, and eating only one's entree. No, the restaurant has no right to expect a customer to spend a penny more than what their entree cost, and what a fair gratuity (if earned) is. Because of your very strong aversion to plate-sharing charges, I'm re-thinking whether or not I feel this kind of charge is appropriate, particularly in this economy. I can tell you that *no* restaurant expects all of their customers to order "soup-to-nuts" all the time. Every purchase helps the bottom line. I can't give you examples from my own restaurant. The portions are huge but it's expected that the dishes are usually shared, "family-style." When we encounter people who obviously haven't eaten here before, who order apps, entrees and then start ordering extra sides, we warn them that they're ordering too much food. It's much better to provide a warning than to have a customer never come back because they had to carry two bags full of leftovers home. Sat Nov 14 15:28:54 -0800 2009 5181617 270888 shaogo 5 5181957 Thanks S. For the record Jfood does not have a strong aversion to a split charge fee. If the kitchen splits the protein and plates for 2 than jfood thinks it is fair. If the server brings and extra plate and the split is done table side by the server then there should not be a split fee but the server deserves more for that service. if the plate is dropped off and the diners do there own sharing then no fee is appropriate. And jfood will agree to disagree on the entree-must position. As a point of reference...many restaurants with $25 entrees also have a burger for $12, approximating the price of an app. How does that fit in? jfood has been THAT customer who sometimes over-orders and he VERY much appreciates when the server says "no mas". Sat Nov 14 16:00:48 -0800 2009 5181887 11290 jfood 6 5183778 Now we're on the same wavelength. First, and most important -- indeed, that $12 burger (typically $15-$18, nowadays) counts as an "entree" -- the restaurant offers the burger on the same menu (perhaps a different page) as the entrees, so by ordering the burger the patron has satisfied my "entree ordering" requirement. And certainly if there's a "plate charge," the restaurant had better present the split entree on two complete plates, including the sides. Some, sadly, think that they can impose a plate charge and what the diner gets is *one* plated meal, an empty plate, and (sometimes) an extra set of silverware to be used by the diner to divvy 'em up. Sun Nov 15 14:57:34 -0800 2009 5181957 270888 shaogo 7 5183792 not exactly S. Jfood still beielves that there is no requirement for an entree order even the hamburger. If jfood wants to order a bowl of soup while mrs jfood orders a salad and on entree or if jfood wants to order a bowl of soup and mrs jfood orders two apps, their choice. Just to be clear. Ciao Sun Nov 15 15:02:44 -0800 2009 5183778 11290 jfood 7 5183813 so if i order a soup and a salad, or 2 appetizers for myself, which might add up to more than an entree i've still breeched my unspoken contract ith the restaurant? i am not going out to please a restaurant, a restaurant exists to please me..... Sun Nov 15 15:14:07 -0800 2009 5183778 135229 thew 8 5183901 "i am not going out to please a restaurant, a restaurant exists to please me....." A restaurant isn't your mommy or a lover. It *exists* to serve you food in exchange for money. Whether you are pleased or not is completely subjective. What pleases one person can infuriate another. Sun Nov 15 15:59:55 -0800 2009 5183813 10195 KTinNYC 8 5183910 "so if i order a soup and a salad, or 2 appetizers for myself, which might add up to more than an entree i've still breeched my unspoken contract ith the restaurant?" No, you haven't. You've satisfied your unspoken contract with the restaurant when the price of the soup/salad or two appetizers equals or exceeds the price of the least expensive entree. Sun Nov 15 16:05:01 -0800 2009 5183813 270888 shaogo 1 5181763 restaurants are a service industry. they are in the business of serving you. order what you want. it's your dime. if they want to impose a minimum cost or a minimum numbers of plates per table or customer that is their right, but im fairly sure that policy would tend to cause them more harm tan good Sat Nov 14 14:28:25 -0800 2009 2839816 135229 thew 2 5182848 I think it should be fine to split entrees, and it would be smart of restaurants to charge a splitting fee-- less to offset the lower bill than because it's a certain amount of work. Also, to explain to people if an entree does not lend itself well to splitting. For one thing, most restaurants have enough variance in the price of their dishes that your bill could easily exceed that of a couple who got two entrees. However, there are customers who are trying to game the system to get the lowest possible bill and who should probably be eating in a less expensive restaurant or not eating out at all. I have a friend I can't eat out with any more, because as soon as he opens a menu you can see him calculating how he can spend as little as possible. He doesn't lack money; he's just cheap. Experienced servers can probably think they can tell who these people are and are looking forward to busting their hump for that person and then getting a small tip. They still shouldn't give attitude. Sun Nov 15 06:58:43 -0800 2009 5181763 11250 bibi rose 3 5183058 yeah, don't you hate those people who buy those inexpensive seats at a concert. Hmmm, imagine them trying to maximize the enjoyment of their money. What an irrational approach to life. Sun Nov 15 09:06:31 -0800 2009 5182848 11290 jfood 4 5183074 I say rip the coach seats out of every airplane. If you can't afford first class, take the bus. Sun Nov 15 09:18:50 -0800 2009 5183058 13722 small h 4 5183273 I consider an entree a "seat" in general. To me it's the bare minimum. The first class airplane seats/fronts row concert seats would be the appetizer, entree, dessert, drinks, wine, etc. Sun Nov 15 10:58:47 -0800 2009 5183058 92744 invinotheresverde 5 5183299 It seems to me that it's not a food minimum you're advocating, but a cost minimum. At Benoit, I can get the foie gras (an appetizer) for $24. Or the hamburger (an entree) for $16. In all likelihood, I'd be finished with the foie gras more quickly, thus freeing up the table faster. So which would the restaurant prefer? Sun Nov 15 11:11:13 -0800 2009 5183273 13722 small h 5 5183691 Sorry but that is where you are seeing ghosts in the business model. If this is the "seat" then the business model would be $25 per person to sit and that would include an entree. Many entrees would have a supplement, say $2 for the pork, $5 for the lamb and $10 for the strip steak. Since jfood has never seen this model (although he does not disagree that it may be in the future) that argument unfortunately fails. The customer starts at $0.00 when he sits and moves up from there per item ordered. Sun Nov 15 14:22:43 -0800 2009 5183273 11290 jfood 6 5184433 I don't believe the customer realistically starts at zero, since it's implied he will "buy a seat". If he just sits in a restaurant and doesn't buy anything, he gets the boot. Also, I don't think the cost of the item much matters; I think it's principle. That's why I think any entree is considered a seat, with drinks/appetizers/dessert and bumps to business/first class/sleeper. Sun Nov 15 19:50:24 -0800 2009 5183691 92744 invinotheresverde 4 5183822 Aw, c'mon jfood! Please don't equate people who may be on a budget and buy inexpensive concert seats with the classic "restaurant cheapie." The "restaurant cheapie" is what I think poster bibi rose is pointing out. You've eaten at enough restaurants to have probably been seated next to one of these people, I'm sure. "Restaurant cheapies" are not like you, I or most people, for that matter. They comprise less than 5% (in my experience) of the dining population. These are people who compulsively and irrationally skimp and scrimp, never realizing that they're wasting their own precious *time* trying to spend the least possible money. It's sad that the "restaurant cheapie" focuses only on the money, and forgets about the pleasures of the ambience, the great food, good drink and relaxing company. Sun Nov 15 15:17:28 -0800 2009 5183058 270888 shaogo 5 5183856 S To some, the order of importance is the company, the ambience, the drink and the food. jfood knows many of these. And they do not gain any additional pleasure out of paying an extra $10-15 on one dish versus another. And since jfood never asks about the economic status of anyone he assumes they have their reasons. So yes jfood will absoluetly equate the person who chooses to pay the least for the ambience and people at a concert to that same person at a restaurant. Yes and jfood is not so naive that he does not know that there are people who try to scam every part of every minute of every day. He tries not to focus on that extreme part of the bell curve. Sun Nov 15 15:34:49 -0800 2009 5183822 11290 jfood 6 5183862 I admire your tenacity, j, especially since I believe that you are right. Sun Nov 15 15:39:21 -0800 2009 5183856 11995 pikawicca 7 5183893 nah...great weekend, lots of laughs with friends and family, dolphins won, dinner cooking, watching the packers-cowboys, life is good Sun Nov 15 15:55:37 -0800 2009 5183862 11290 jfood 8 5183902 Life is good, especially if you are not a Cowboys fan. Sun Nov 15 16:00:40 -0800 2009 5183893 10195 KTinNYC 6 5183923 Thanks, jfood, for acknowledging that there are people whose lives consist solely to scam. I'm certain that when jfood encounters these folks, he distances himself immediately. It's good not to focus on the extreme part of the bell curve. I'm forced, sadly, to deal with these people regularly. And the fact that my restaurant is considered a value-priced location draws these people to me like flies. It helps me to try to find the humor in watching them as they ask the servers for a "half order" of a $6.95 side dish, and other behaviors. Sun Nov 15 16:12:34 -0800 2009 5183856 270888 shaogo 7 5184131 charge them $5.95 for the half order. Guess it is better than a half order of an egg roll. Sun Nov 15 17:42:33 -0800 2009 5183923 11290 jfood 8 5184464 I regularly see half-orders for very little less than a full order. Encourages Bob and me to continue to share. When we eat out, we almost always share everything. We've never gotten a whisper of disapproval. Our apps with wine equal someone else's two entrees with no wine. Etc. Over the whole dining room over the course of a week, I have to believe it all works out. The fact that this thread has garnered so many replies has surprised me. I'm the customer aka buyer. I can buy a little and enjoy that and return and recommend to friends. To me, this is such a non-event. I've never been to a restaurant anywhere where I felt disapproval. I respect the fact that some have but I still wonder why. Sun Nov 15 20:13:15 -0800 2009 5184131 131001 c oliver 8 5190186 A half-order of a $6.95 stir-fry side-dish costs $4.95 at our place, jfood. I *wish* I had the nerve to charge $5.95! Can you believe that I've had diners ask me why the half order isn't priced at $3.47! Our previous experience is in ethnic white tablecloth restaurants. If we had *any* idea how troublesome customers are in the "value price" category, we'd have never done this. But hindsight is 20/20. Tue Nov 17 18:26:33 -0800 2009 5184131 270888 shaogo 9 5190226 Oh man they even round the penny in their favor. Tue Nov 17 18:45:48 -0800 2009 5190186 11290 jfood 10 5190534 Of course, the penny's rounded in the customer's favor. Another poster above described "greedy owners." Well, we *mustn't* let those greedy owners have a single inch -- they're bound to end up taking a mile. jfood, I think you'd have a different view of humanity if you were to see what I have to deal with on an almost daily basis. But for every one snarky customer, there's at least 2-3 others who're just delightful. Just tonight I was talking a customer through his take-out order. He asked for a menu item we don't have (a half a fried chicken, with rice). The customer was quite dismayed. He told me that our competitor down the street sells it. So I recommended that he go there to get his chicken and rice. "Oh, no, I can't do that," he replied, "they charge waay too much for it!" Tue Nov 17 21:56:25 -0800 2009 5190226 270888 shaogo