Dear Starbucks, I have given up. I'm sorry.

[Jeserf]

Dear Starbucks,

While I don't think you have the BEST coffee in the world, I do think that convenience to my drug of choice is important. I'm not getting a venti unsweetened iced coffee to "relax" in a coffee shop. When I want that, I visit a locally owned spot...or painfully want for the likes of the 61C Cafe in Pittsburgh (college) or Rao's, in Amherst (grad school). So, you are convenient and provide me what I need.

However, the last slew of times I have visited, I have felt not only like an inconvenience because I'm JUST ordering an iced coffee, but I've also felt like I am in an iced cream shop. Whipped cream, sauce, blenders, chocolate chips. Where is the coffee?

Yesterday's adventure included a man with heat stroke throwing up and the staff not doing much about the mess....we left before the scene was cleared. Today's mistake involved waiting 20 minutes (yes, twenty) for said iced coffee at a different location. they had none made for the day. At 9am. In Washington DC. On K Street where everyone and their mom wants coffee in front of them before they even order it.

Finally, have you given up hiring decent staff? I did briefly work for you, and I know it is a difficult job and you aren't appreciated. However, is it too much to ask that you hire people that do not say, "huh?" at least 3 or 4 times during the ordering process? Or people who are polite? Maybe because there are SO many of you all over the place, you'll hire anyone and forgo the extensive training program that I went through just to staff your locations. Or the staff still goes through it but doesn't care. I applaud your treatment of your staff - health bennies, tuition reimbursement, etc....but in exchange, is it too much to ask for employees with a little more work ethic or customer service skills? "Sorry your coffee took so long...next time, it's on us. Here is a coupon."

In conclusion, Starbucks...I have given up. Instead of walking the extra block to you at work, I'll just cross the street and go to Cosi where there is always iced coffee, friendly staff, and and almost no wait outside of immediate lunch hours. Their food sucks, but iced coffee at a large chain is just iced coffee for the most part.

I hope you shape up and start to realize that those who really like coffee and want to visit your stores during the work day DREAD you. I am sure I am not alone in saying that I have given up.

Love,
Me

[Pylon]

I feel lucky that there is a local roaster near my office that has opened a very nice coffee shop with pastries and sandwiches. (Kaldi's, for any of the STL crew, out in Chesterfield Valley.) They sell their coffee to some restaurants as well, so you know the coffee at those places it high quality.

At SB, I usually just went with a large non-fat cap, extra shot. Since I switched, I'm back to just coffee. The stuff there has enough flavor and body that I don't need the rest of the add-ins. Something to think about.

[foodperv]

i must say the new automated machines have taken the fun out of things .
i as a customer used to watch the barista , it was fun watch especially the exp ones .
also there are still some good starbucks around. one i went to for 1and 1/2 yrs used to have my coffee ready as they saw me coming in the door they really knew their reg customers BUT YES in general they are not as good as they were

[mariekeac]

I am not a coffeedrinker at all. But i love hot chocolate! so I went in for my first ever Starbucks Hot Chocolate! I was very excited and looking forward to it.
I get my cup and dig in!! to my absolute amazement, the hot chocolate is made with WATER???!!! What caring makes their Hot Chocolate with water?? you would think they would have plenty of hot milk around....
Guess I'll just make my own....

[Cathy]

Go to www.starbucks.com and at the top is a link to "nutrition" then bottom left is 'beverages' and under "classic favorites" is 'hot chocolate' and you can choose size and type of milk and get the calorie count. There is no 'water' option.

A grande made with 2% and with whipped cream is 370 calories. That absolutely is not water, nor would all of those calories be from the whipped cream. Watch them make it next time- they pump in the vanilla and mocha syrups and then steam the milk and mix it all together and top with whipped cream.

[kindofabigdeal]

Yeah, they definitely use milk, but it's nothing more than milk and chocolate syrup.

[Cathy]

It is listed in the Nutrition section (everything is and it is scary) and you can also watch how they do it- vanilla syrup and mocha syrup (chocolate only in the kid's $1 version) and you choose the milk you want. I think they have a 'default' milk they use (low fat?-read it somewhere on CH) if you do not specify.

I just don't understand how soy calories are different in the US and Canada...

[kindofabigdeal]

different sources probably. Is it silk brand that they use? maybe that's not available in canada

[Cathy]

Canadian soy has 20 fewer calories and 25 mg more of sodium...those numbers jumpd out at me when I played with the nutrition calculator. just thought soy was soy, even if pasteurized...then again, I buy it unflavored and still hot from a local place.

[ccbweb]

The stuff you're getting may be just soy, but the soy milk used in coffee shops and the stuff in supermarkets and stores isn't. Not that that's bad, but the ingredients will vary and so will the nutritional profile.

On Silk's site (that's what Starbuck's uses) they note about ingredients:
"We mix in just the right amounts of filtered water, natural sweeteners, vitamins, minerals and necessary ingredients to provide that great Silk taste."

I think kindofabigdeal is probably correct that they're using a different product in Canada.

[sporkandknife]

As a former employee of "The Bucks" for a span of 5 years back in high school and college, I agree with Gelato in Roma. The employees today seem to lack the training that those of us from the early days recieved. I've noticed while living in DC, the baristas in big cities seem to be the least informed about coffee, so perhaps it's a big city problem? I've had similar experiences in Chicago, New York and LA. When I was an employee, Starbucks seemed to attract the college/grad student/determined part time worker who had a passion for coffee, and I ask....what happened to this? All of the baristas I've encountered lately seem less than enthused at the thought of coffee and coffee beans.

[ajs228]

At the SB that I go to near work, I'm always being served by a different person. I hardly ever see the same face twice. Maybe they're having high turnover, which always leads to worse customer service.

[kindofabigdeal]

certainly they have high turnover, but probably not higher than most fast food restaurants. Granted, that's just an educated guess, but I have no data to back it up. Let's all remember that they are fast food, not a boutique.

[WCchopper]

I revel in my proximity to Peet's!

Went into Starbucks, stood in line, "Can I help you"; "Why, yes. May I have a coffee please".........long blank stare.....realization slowly dawns...."Oh, a coffee! I didn't realize"......blood rushes to the face. "It's fine, can I have a small coffee?"; " A grande?" ; "OK" ; "It's just been so long since someone just ordered plain coffee".......

[ccbweb]

Peet's serves basically the same set of drinks as Starbucks. One may certainly prefer one to the other...but its not like Peet's is only serving drip.

[WCchopper]

Oh I know, I'm not married to drip, I just thought the exchange above was sadly funny. I'm sure it could happen anywhere. And I like the taste of Peet's

[KevinB]

I with you WC; the whole pretentiousness of the venti, grande, whatever puts me off. It's coffee, for crying out loud. I can't go into Starbucks without remembering the scene from "LA Story" where it takes about ten minutes for a table to order coffee ("I'll have a half-decaf capuccino with skim milk foam, nutmeg, and a twist of lemon...").

Here in Canada, we have a chain called "Second Cup", which actually predates Starbucks by several years. They serve all the frou-frou coffee concoctions as well, but you can also belly up to the counter, and order a "large house blend/french roast/flavour of the day", and get served in 30 seconds.

[kindofabigdeal]

I can go into starbucks and do the same, but maybe other people's starbucks are more pretentious.

[ccbweb]

I've never had a problem ordering "medium" whatever at Starbucks. Which is what I normally do figuring its likely to be a reasonable size for me. There are also times when I'll ask for "the smallest cup of drip coffee you've got" and usually get an 8oz cup, which is nice in the afternoon.

[bachslunch]

Same here. I always ask for a small, medium, or large the times I've gone to Starbuck's. They never correct me. Whether they shout over "venti, grande" or "small, medium" to the person preparing it doesn't bother me. I get the size I want anyway and that's all I care about on that subject.

[kindofabigdeal]

just out of curiousity... why not just use their jargon?

[ccbweb]

In my case, at least, I've found that some stores don't have the "short" cups, so "the smallest..." gets me whatever the smallest available is. I haven't sorted out the jargon on the iced drink cup sizes either...so with those I tend to go for "medium." When I'm ordering an espresso drink or a larger drip, I do use the "tall" "grande" etc.

[Cathy]

If you say 'smallest' you will get a tall, since the price list on the wall only shows those sizes. It is the same jargon for the iced cups (tall, grande, venti).

You have to ask for a short and if they start grabbing a tall cup- repeat it back- "no, a short cup". They seem automatic because most people don't order the short.

I have the same problem when I ask for it in a 'for here' cup or glass...they start reaching for the marker pen and/or the cardboard cup- I stop them and point to the cabinet where they keep the cups and say -again- "no, for here" -

All the stand alone stores have 'for here' cups and glasses. It just tastes better, and forces me to sit inside and relax with that cup of coffee.)

[Panini Guy]

Because when you have three different sizes, by default one is always small, one is always medium and one is always large. There is no possible way of it being otherwise. So why would I alter my order if, a) it's obvious what I want, and b) there's no benefit to me for using their phony jargon?

The reason *$ did this was to create some plastic culture and psuedosophistication which many consumers bought into (brand experts cite studies that show many *$ consumers believe carrying that logo'd cup says something positive about them... and that mastering the "lingo" is considered a skill. IMO that's a sad statement from an antrhopological /social POV).

Hope that answers your question ;-)

[jfood]

sorta like the emperor's new clothes. what is a new change decided to call the smallest a medium, the medium sized a large and the largest a small? Should everyone use the jargon. They call the smallest a tall, enough said. It's just stupid. Small, medium, large, KISS theory.

[Pylon]

I refuse to use their silly names at SB. They try to correct me (Do you mean a gradetallavenitous?), and I respond "No, the large." Gets me a dirty look every time. But worth it.

[revsharkie]

the Starbucks nearest me here is 75 miles away, so it's pretty much a non-issue. But even when I lived where they were closer I still didn't go there very often. i found that the small independent places just had better coffee and better service.

Here in this rural Iowa town we have a nice little coffee & lunch shop. I suspect they sell more just plain regular coffee than anything else. Shortly after they opened I went in there to see how they'd be, and got a nice latte or something. Then one of my church ladies threw this absolute fit about "paying $3 for a cup of coffee!!" I have a feeling a lot of folks in town agree with her. Those of us who've ever lived anywhere else are who keep them from selling their espresso machine. But I went in there once and ordered an Italian soda with cream, and they looked at me like I had three heads.

[stellamystar]

I find the $3 cup of coffee comment ridiculous also. This is like going to a bar and realizing that a bottle of beer is $4 but at home it may average $2.00 and saying "You can drink cheaper at home!" But, you have to buy a 6 pack. Just like, most folks, brew a whole pot of coffee to get one or two cups. We pay a premiuim for less product.......

[ccbweb]

There's also the fact that the $3 "cup of coffee" is a latte or some sort of milk based, espresso drink. A tall coffee at the Starbucks near my office is $1.50 (I guess that's going to go up, or perhaps just did to $1.60 or so) which is within 10 cents a cup of the 5 other places I can get a cup of coffee near my office. Still more expensive than the cup or two I have at home that I make myself, obviously. In my case, I pay the premium to have hot coffee that is relatively freshly made without having to bring it from home and after a time that is longer than most thermal cups would keep it hot enough for my tastes.

[Chew on That]

I enjoyed your letter. I used to like Starbucks and will still go there on occasion (mostly when I'm in airports for some reason,) but college switched me over to more local coffee shops. I went to school in Champaign, IL where Espresso Royale and Green Street Coffeehouse reigned supreme. Espresso had the best chai lattes, and Green Street had the best lattes (with an abundance of foam - my favorite!) My freshman year there was no Starbucks so I tried these places out. By junior year, there was a Starbucks but I had no real desire to go there! Now that I've graduated, I miss the other places!

[ajs228]

I went by Starbucks today after lunch for my tall drip, and the girl behind the counter joked "we don't sell coffee anymore". Without thinking I responded "so you guys have switched to just muffins and CD's now, huh?"
Probably not actually as funny as I thought, but she got a kick out of it.

[luniz]

I have to admit, my dad brought a bag of the medium roast beans on vacation and it was much better than I thought it would be. As far as a cup at the store, most coffee places in airports and such are all the same anyways, you have to get lucky to just happen upon a place that actually has good coffee.

[delk]

Just curious, considering that you said you worked there...
At what point during the 20 minute wait didn't you realize that maybe you should bail?

I'd guess the average customer would hang for 5 or so minutes. I can't imagine an ex-employee waiting that long. I know I would have booked wayyyy before that.

Just curious.

[kindofabigdeal]

but you pay before you wait.

[Jeserf]

Why would I leave without getting my drink and/or a refund?

If it were the case that I got said drink, and then had to pay it wouldn't have been an issue. But since you pay first at Starbucks, and getting a refund is a PITA there, I'd rather not lose my money AND my time.

[delk]

Okay... that's is why I asked. I did not know you pay first and then wait... I assumed you were waiting in line for 20 minutes before ordering. Guess you can tell where I don't go...lol Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[moymoy]

I guess I'm a rare breed, I prefer Starbucks because I DO feel that it tastes better and have never once been rude to by any barista or counterperson at any of the various branches I've been to in the past 5 years. Occasionally, there is a wait for my Venti Iced Coffee, yes shaken & sweetened (that's the way I like it) but never so much as to deter me from ever coming back.

[Gelato_in_Roma]

I, too, prefer Starbucks. I have tried local coffee shops only to pay the same amount and be disappointed with the quality. I guess I am not as lucky as some of you who have great independents near by.

For the most part, I now make my own lattes at home. I stop at Starbucks only when I am out and need some coffee.

[ccbweb]

The wild success of Starbucks would indicate that you're not at all a rare breed. I have certainly had better coffee than the coffee I get at Starbucks, but only sometimes. I find them consistent, I basically like their coffee (I prefer drip to espresso drinks) and they're usually very convenient when I'm looking for coffee, especially when I'm someplace I'm not familiar with. Sometimes, I feel like taking a chance on a local joint, but other times I just want a cup of coffee I know I'm going to be ok with and I often turn to Starbucks in those situations. I know what the wait will be when I see the line, if I think it'll take longer than I have or longer than I'm willing to wait, I'll scan for other options and maybe take one.

[mlgb]

I'm with you. If I'm somewhere unfamiliar and can't find Starbucks the chances are just as likely that I will pay $2.30 for a small styrofoam cup full of weak bitter dark brown dishwater. Which happened last weekend. Which is why I go to Starbucks if I can find one.

[Honeychan]

I'm with you, moymoy. I'm a simple girl, I get a grande iced cafe' con leche, sweetened. I have 2 SB's I go to at least 2 times a week, and know what to expect. So far, the service and product has been good- even great at times!

Now..My work has -2- Coffee Bean and Tea Leaf shops, and I DO have a problem with them, at times. It seems like -every- time I get an iced coffee, they brew it espresso-strength, then add some cold water and ice to the concoction. There are ALLWAYS esspresso grounds in the bottom of my cup, and sometimes it's enough to make me gag. SB's quality (to me) is so much better.

Here in Vegas, indy coffee-shops are about, but not the normal. I'm NOT one to use a coffee-house/shop like my living room..I don't socalize there, I get my coffee and scoot on out. If I happen across a mom & pop shop, I do like to stop in, see what's going on, and perhaps get a cup. So far...Here in Vegas, not one shop that makes me want to go out of my way. *shrugs* So, SB's it is, and for me..I have no issues with them.

[Panini Guy]

I applaud CB&T for serving iced coffees Americano-style, but you are correct in that there is absolutely no excuse for there ever to be grinds at the bottom of any espresso drink.

Definitely complain about that one - sounds like they're not wiping the portafilters after each use or cleaning off the portafilter wings after dosing, or they may have a gasket problem on the grouphead, but this is the sort of thing that should be brought to their attention.

[manraysky]

I really miss Dunkin' Donuts. I used to get a large ice coffee at the drive-thru for $1.99 on the way to work every morning in the summer.

I only go to Starbucks as a last resort, since I am lucky enough to have a lot of indie coffee places in my neighborhood. And whenever I do go to Starbucks, I find the wait really frustrating. I always order either a plain hot coffee, or a plain ice coffee. I hate having to wait while everyone ahead of me gets some blended thing with 8 modifiers.

[MobyRichard]

I make my own coffee, hot and iced in a French press and it's worth the bother.

[chelleyd01]

Im a different breed. Since I have owned a coffee house, I am a trained barista. Although the chains ended up shutting me down, I still feel my brews and concotions could stand up against any SBux or Dunkin. HOWEVER....when I am on the run, which is pretty much every waking moment, and I need a fix, I need it NOW.

These are my conclusions from a girl that knows a thing or 2 about the brew...

I would take a DD over SBux any day of the week. For $2.99 I get a very well made iced caramel latte, skim, no whip with no drama that gives me the fix I need. The espresso still comes through over the sweet of the caramel.

SBux is entirely too freakin complicated and I don't think I can get anything there for $2.99. My last stop there was Monday after a Dr appt. I ordered a tall iced carmel macchiatto, skim no whip. THREE TIMES I repeated it. TWO times they got it wrong. I drank it in 3 sips and stopped at DD on my way to the other side of town.

[marmite]

I'm almost at that point myself, but only with certain locations. At some, the staff is friendly, helpful, and can get me out the door in a few minutes. At others, there is laziness, eye rolling, staff too busy flirting with other staff to do their job or pay attention to the customers. I'm not reciting a novel here, guys, I'm just asking for coffee- try to pay attention for the 10 seconds it takes me to tell you I want an iced coffee with no ice in it (basically room temperature coffee). Some counter people get it right away, and some look at me like I had 3 heads. Must I explain that I don't like drinks with ice, and it's too hot out for hot coffee? In theory, no. Just GET IT. You don't need to understand why.

[jfood]

jfood has the following theory about the current state of SB:

Everyone got ahead of themselves in this business model. People wanted gazillion dollar fraapay this and chai that and SB filled the void when it could, while keeping it's mission and scale to a mangeable level. They had a certain, albeit overwhelming, amount of choices. They trained their people and the public was also a trained group of custos.

Then the model went sideways. The rapid expansion of the stores, hey let's have them lined up down one street like a monopoly board, the rapid expansion of custo wanting not a choice from the overwhelming menu but they then customized it with 1.6oz of this and 2.68oz of that and make sure the temp is 186.7 degrees. Both sides push the balloon until it exploded from the weight.

What goes first?

Scenario A - The coffee makers get frustrated, the custos then get frustrated and get antsy then the server, then the custo...
Scenario B - The custo gets antsy, then the coffee maker, then the custo...

Both scenarios are bad.

Both SB and the custo are a product of their own doing. SB wanted rapid expansion and the world of a SB on every corner, the custo wanted it not only their way, but their EXACT way. Now it's time for both to reasseess.

For jfood it's a pretty easy situation. He has never ordered or called it anything other than a large coffee, please leave room for milk.

So an open invitation from jfood:

- to the custos...lighten up on what you order (obviously not intended for someone like
the OP who orders Iced Coffee). Could you imagine doing the same ordering procedure in a resto?
- to SB, remember your roots, you need the custos to keep the machine going. Start putting some procedures in place to correct difficiencies, get surveys and fix this before you go the way of T-Rex. Remeber him, he wandered the earth until he got too mean and disappeared.

Remeber on both sides. IT"S A CUP OF COFFEE!! you're supposed to relax and enjoy it, not make it a lifechanging event.

[Jeserf]

Agreed completely.

On my walk back to work from the MessBucks, I thought "maybe a no-frap" policy during the a.m rush hour. just coffee drinks. No blenders. Or, have two lines. an express line JUST for coffee/iced coffee/tea/iced tea and other easy drinks, and a longer line for the people who, for some reason, need a 350 calorie iced cream-like drink before work.

I don't think SB really cares, though...until their stock falls further, anyway.

[jfood]

wouldn't that be great if there was an express lane in the morning?

wrt the stock, it's up almost 10% since mid-june, seems like coffee has a negative beta.

[Jeserf]

but the trend is usually lower...their profits go up in the summer because of the high cost of the "summer" marketed drinks.

[Cathy]

One Saturday, in February, at 6:00 a.m., in Southern California, The Mister and I sat down close to the cash register and added up sales. Over $1400 in 30 minutes.

People taking the kids to T-Ball and softball games. This was before the Breakfast Sandwiches and heating ovens arrived.

Last Sunday morning in Downtown San Diego at 8:30 a.m., 15 sandwiches in less than 20 minutes. Didn't count the beverages. There are six Starbucks within 7 blocks from that location. I know the one we were at is the least crowded.

They are doing fine and, yes, I am a Stockholder.

FWIW, I go in and get a tall coffee, in a "for here" cup-they have to wash it- sometimes with an add shot, usually not. The coffee urns have a timer and every hour a fresh pot is brewed. I read the sign outside the store: "Starbucks Coffee". That is what I get.

[delk]

Quote, "Over $1400 in 30 minutes."

They were ringing up $46.00 and change a minute?

[Cathy]

Yes. A LOT of $20+ drink orders (4 or 5 beverages). Plus pastries. 5 people working. 2 cash registers.

Plus they were the cool cash registers that printed out the order on a sticker for the Barista...saves time.

I am sure it isn't always that busy but still I am amazed at how much money people spend there when all I get is the $1.50 (now $1.60) cup of coffee.

[delk]

okay...

[fara]

um, kind of makes me scared of SoCal.

[ajs228]

Actually, that express line is a great idea. I hate waiting behind 10 people ordering lattes and frappuchinos, or the office chick with orders for 20 people, when all I want is a cup of drip coffee.

[AMFM]

The coffee shop at the hospital where I used to work had an expressline just like that in the morning. Prepaid cards or cash. Plain coffee only. It was FABULOUS for those of us who needed it and were in a hurry - like the whole world is. No idea why Starbucks can't do it.

[kindofabigdeal]

RE: complicated orders. I rarely do that... but if you drop that much for coffee, I think you deserve to get exactly what you want. You don't earn the right to be rude, no matter how much you pay.

I personally don't understand grabbing coffee to go. I pay for the location. The respite it provides. If i want good morning coffee i just wake up a few minutes earlier and make it myself. Too few places are genuinely consistent. I find myself dissapointed (SB or local joint alike) more often than I find myself with quality coffee.

[Jeserf]

If you have to be at work at 6:30am, the few minutes sleep are precious. Plus, it'd never stay cold (or hot) during the commute. And carrying beverages on the Metro can get you into trouble on the Metro. Yes, it's pathetically happened to me once. With coffee.

Customers shouldn't be rude...but, they have a right to get their orders in a timely manner for what the drink is.

[jfood]

jfood would never advance the right of rude, sorry if implied.

jfood makes his own first cup at home, so agree with the home-brew concept. but others donot have that luxury due to scheduling or if they are traveling. Jfood only grabs SB while traveling.

some SB are in hotel lobbies and the ambience is not there. likewise the SB in jfood's 'hood are OK but nothing to relax and enjoy. so to-go's are the way jfood goes at SB.

Also, jfood does not like HOT coffe and wants it to cool down a bit. Sometimes can take 20-30 minutes to get to the right temp. so sitting around watching the coffee temp get right, is sorta like watching water boil. so he takes the coffee to the meetings and waits for the cool down, then drinks over 30-90 minutes. Jfood knows that many feel that's blech, but hey that's the jfood way.

[kindofabigdeal]

no you didn't, that was separate thought.

I wish I didn't like hot coffee, that'd make things much easier. . I find myself reheating a single cup of coffee a number of times. I burn the skin of the top of my mouth about once a week... about as often as it takes to heal. I've seen my grandma drink water just off the boil. Isn't there some complaint about americans liking things at extremes in terms of temperature? Guilty.

[kiwiFRUIT]

Americans apparently like coffee to be crazy hot. I usually drink a latte, and often I will have to wait for 20-30 minutes for the beverage to cool down enough for me to drink. I usually ask the barista to make the milk "not too hot".It seems to be chains that are most guilty of this. I haven't come across milk this hot in other countries. It certainly isn't the way I was taught. Sometimes the milk even has a burnt aftertaste from too long steaming.

[kindofabigdeal]

I won't say all chain baristas are guilty of this, but the hotter you get the milk, the longer you have before you get to 140 degrees, which is when you're supposed to throw it out. Most starbucks machines now have thermometers so they cut off at 160 so you can steam milk without even doing anything.

[Panini Guy]

Cappuccinos are generally served in the 130F-140F range in Italy, Germany and Scandanavia. It's generally served 20 degrees higher than that at most chains (Sbux, 'Bou, Panera) in North America

The thing to remember with steaming is that the milk will continue to heat beyond the point when the steam is cut off, usually 8-10 degrees F in a 12-16 oz stainless pitcher. So, unless you're using a much larger volume of milk in a bigger pitcher, cutting off at 160 could result in near-scalded milk. Taking it above 160 will definitely do so, leading to that burnt taste.

By comparison, the typical third wave coffeehouse generally pull out the wands between 140-150F leading to a more Euro cafe experience.

Btw, long as we're talking chains - resteaming milk is just bad for texture and taste. That, to me, is a bigger crime perpatrated by the mermaid than all the overroasting of the espresso blends. Resteaming results in a drink that is begging to be flavored because the milk itself is abhorrent. And once you've added the flavors, then we're not even talking "coffee drinks" anymore, but some alternate dairy food group (or soy group, as the case may be).

I'd love to see a different cultural perception of coffee some day, where a "coffeehouse" serves only drinks that are at least 1/3 coffee. Anything above that is a coffee-flavored milkshake served across the street. Of course that will never happen, just as we seem to be stuck with pizza places that serve wings instead of keeping their eye on their crust quality... but that's another thread.

[kindofabigdeal]

I'm not sure I understand how milk could continue to heat. I don't think that makes sense, in terms of physics. Since it's a liquid being stirred around, it is generally a consistent temp throughout. (as opposed to something like meat where the outside continue to cook the inside). The stainless container is not a heat source, so there's no where for energy to be coming from.

When I was a barista I paid more attention to the texture of the milk rather than the temp.

[Panini Guy]

I'm not a physicist and perhaps I should have qualified - this is unlikely to happen on HX machines or low end pro machines. But if you're using a more powerful steaming unit like a LaMarzocco, Synesso, Spaziale, Faema, etc. with a four hole wand tip, you will see this effect as all the last bit of steam is not yet incorporated/temp stabilized at wand shut off. All I can suggest is try it. You'll see an increase in temp after shutoff.

Good baristas can be weaned off the thermometer after a couple of weeks once they can connect the dots between stretching temps, latte milk and capp milk, and what "liquid chrome" looks like. But every now and then it's good to test anyway - sometimes eyes lie.

[Jeserf]

Hot milk is a liability issue for a large chain.

Using a thermometer is a lot like a bartender using a jigger.

[Panini Guy]

And if I ran a bar, I'd have my bartenders use the jigger until they could pour 1oz of booze blindfolded without it.

It's only good training to know exactly what temp to feel for to end your stretching and what temp is ~150. When somebody gets that and can repeatedly make drinks w/o a thermometer, then they can fly solo.

Maybe the individual barista takes it as a matter of pride that they don't need a jigger or a thermometer. The owner deals with this issue as a matter of consistency for both quality and cost control.

[Jeserf]

that's all well and good, but a lot of town/localities/insurance companies make bartenders use jiggers.
the same might be true for larger-chain coffee shops and the temperature of milk.

A business owner might want to cover his or her bases in our litigious society!

[ccbweb]

Or because it just turns out a more consistent end product. I've noticed with cooks, bartenders, etc that there are a number who use thermometers and jiggers and things like that when they get started then move on to doing without all of the tools but eventually end up using them again because it lets them focus on other things and be precise about the parts that need precision.

Granted, if you're heating the milk to the wrong temperature or you don't have the balance of the other ingredients right, then using such tools isn't going to help make something good anyhow.

[kindofabigdeal]

just to add to an unnecessary discussion...

Thermometers are inherently flawed since they're always a few seconds behind, but having one in the pitcher or not makes nearly no difference to the barista in how they prepare the drink. While I am certainly not a bartender I would imagine the use of a jigger changes how you produce a drink to a much greater extent.

[coney with everything]

jfood, I think you've hit on the problem with most large companies in the US--the philosophy of grow or die. Inevitably it seems that they get too big to maintain the core values that they started out with. Look at Sears, Kmart, McDonalds, Home Depot, IBM, the domestic automakers...now we're starting to see it with Walmart and Toyota as well as Starbucks.

That said, I just got back from vacation in Washington State where we visited several Starbucks (convenience). All full of competent polite help. I don't know if it's due to the closeness to the mother ship or the fact we were in small towns where the baristas knew a lot of their customers personally.

Also, was it Bill Maher that said that the longer it took to order your coffee, the bigger a$$%&#@ you are??

[jfood]

Without getting into the macro- and micro-economic issues of each of the companies you mention, SB has a unique problem in jfood's opinion, one in which he mentioned to collegues a few years ago and the WSJ picked up a few months ago.

Their philosophy is an SB on all four street corners in cities. This basically creates competition between the four stores. Now in a basic overdemand for a product (as seen in the long lines at a single SB) this works fine in delivery an alternative to the line (hey i'll go across the street to SB #2). All fine and well until 2 economic factors come into play. 1 - demand starts to level and then decrease and the third and fourth stores are true competition versus an additional "line". and 2 - this business model goes against the basic theory of spreading your fixed costs over as many variable costs as possible. Instead of enteringinto a new real estate lease, SB should consider more efficient space utilization in the current environment. For example instead of store #3, did they consider making store #1 a full service with the nice poofy couches and chairs and make store #2 a different model, no chairs, but use the space to have a second line. If people want to buy and sit, they walk across the street. Not perfect, just an idea.

[Loren3]

I always thought they wanted a shop on every corner, because their product is so mediocre that nobody would bother to cross the street for it!

;-)

[Bat Guano]

What I heard was a little of both these ideas. People are going to go to the coffee place most convenient to them, rather than going to the trouble of even crossing the street. Thus if there's enough demand to support a coffee shop on all four corners, SB wants all of them to be SBs rather than some other competitor. Makes a certain kind of sense....

[gyozagirl]

Agreed on all points. I have to say I've been a lot happier going to a Dunkin Donuts before work, because the Starbucks by me has been consistently rude and not worth the time/money, even though it's located closer than the DD. About a week ago a friend of mine and I stopped in one of the Dupont Circle (in DC) Starbucks, where an employee was mopping the floors by our seats, then proceeded to push dirty water and old newspapers into our feet repeatedly without saying a word. It wasn't even a passive agressive "we are closing, please leave" sort of situation, as it was hours before the closing time, and we had bought drinks, so it wasn't like we were "squatting" just to have a place to sit. Needless to say, we got up and left, haven't been back since.

[Jeserf]

I guess I'd have to see if there's a DD near me.

However, I am going to bring in a little 4 cup coffee maker and just use that...putting it in the fridge before i leave work during the summers when i want iced coffee.

It's a shame, though. Starbucks could be great again, but you're only as good as your employees and your service. Failures.

[dalaimama]

Don't forget to fill an ice cube tray with coffee as well. Then you never have to have regular ice diluting your glorious iced coffee!

[Pylon]

Brilliant! I feel so stupid for not thinking of this!

[mselectra]

Jeserf -- how do you feel about Caribou? I think there are a few near or along K St. and it's Starbucks-y There's such good coffee in DC, I think it's easy to avoid Starbuck's. Do you work near Java Green? I haven't had their coffee, but might be worth a try.

[Jeserf]

I don't really work near non-starbucks or Cosi part of K Street.

Problem solved by bringing in my own 4-cup coffee pot, even though I miss going out for a break to get coffee.

[Cathy]

You can make a cup and put it in a thermal container and at least walk outside...we all need breaks.

THat's why when I do go to Starbuks, I ask for it in a "for here" cup- they have them (and "for here" glasses for cold drinks). It forces me to sit down and drink the coffee there. If I got it in cardboard, I would be more likely to walk off with it and drink while driving.

[bachslunch]

We have a ton of DD's up where I am, and I'd say don't bother. Some folks love their coffee, but I find it just above average at best. Their cookies are actually pretty good, but their donuts are horrible (icky sweet with not-quite-right fillings and usually dry, cakey breading), their specialty drinks (coolatas and the like) are fake tasting, and their sandwiches (especially the "steak" based breakfast ones) are disgusting.

And most Starbuck's I've been to are comfortable to sit in and inviting to linger in, with easy chairs or sofas and more traditional tables and chairs -- and they're usually reasonably clean. Most DD's I've been to are Spartan in decor and no fun to spend any time in, usually teeny fast food table and chair combos, and dirty to boot. And the DD counter folk up here are rarely pleasant, while I've found the reverse is true at local Starbuck's outlets.

[SweetPea914]

LOL where I live we have a Starbucks and a wonderful independent place called Slave to the Grind. I like Starbucks for the outdoor patio and I meet there with a mom group on occasion to chill and chat. One day I was heading over and was SOOOO tempted to pick my coffee up at the other place and hang on Starbucks patio. Unfortunately I have a very highly elevated conscience and just couldn't do it!
Did anyone read the consumer reports issue that said McD's actually has the best chain coffee?

[kindofabigdeal]

consumer reports is great... for objective matters. coffee? nope. light beer? nope.

[steakman55]

MCD serves Green Mountain Coffee Roasters coffee...from Vermont. It is great coffee. You should try it. I like it better than Starbucks coffee

[kindofabigdeal]

only in the NE in about 500 stores.

[SweetPea914]

Yeah, I just told my husband that as I was writing this I remembered the beer report. We both couldn't figure out where they got the results from. I'm not even much of a beer drinker (I'll have an occasional Amstel light) but they rated coors light or some sort of crap as the best beer didn't they?? But then we're getting off topic now aren't we?

[Gelato_in_Roma]

I worked for Starbucks before and during the the Frappucino launch... before whipped cream was allowed on any iced beverage because it curdles. I remember when training consisted of tasting coffee brewed in a french press. I was so trained I was able to smell and blind taste coffees and tell you where in the world they were from. My coworkers and I took pride in out knowledge and drink quality. We were true baristas. Have you noticed they now use automated espresso machines?

[Jeserf]

Yes!
if all you do is press a button, you aren't a baritsta!

the people behind the counter at Raos (again, in Amherst...mmm pumpkin chocolate chip cookies...) were baristas...and they did the whole milk design stuff on top of lattes.

I went through the same training at Starbucks...i think they've given up on it and have a lot higher turnover. And I don't like repeating myself over and over again for a darn iced coffee. No - no weird sweetener! No, don't shake it! Just ICED COFFEE! heh

[Panini Guy]

If you're talking Rao as is Scott Rao (I thought he was in Holyoke, not Amherst), that's a much different animal than Starbucks from any decade. You should consider yourself lucky indeed.

[jackal]

Rao no longer owns the one in amherst and, i believe, opened a coffee/breakfast cafe in hadley. He roasts coffee and distributes it to local restaurants. I was surprised one day to see it on the menu of craigie st bistro here in cambridge.

Rao's of today doesn't compare to the one I grew up with in the late 90s as a caffeine-starved high school student. coffee for $1 with a free refill.

[Jeserf]

Correct - he sold the one in Amherst.
It's still a great coffee shop for a caffeine starved student.

[kindofabigdeal]

When i worked there i got some mug awards because of my desire to learn about the coffee... then i started just getting frustrated looks from co-workers.