427677 Fri Aug 03 13:00:52 -0700 2007 106 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 2811479 I just whipped up a big unctuous mess of capellini with white clam sauce - delicious, yes...but something seems missing. "Oh, I know - parmesano! Of course! But, of course as everybody knows it's a BIG BIG "NO-NO" Massive injunction, possibly a hanging offense, against adding cheese to Italian fish dishes... Since it seems like the perfect last step, aside from lemon juice, to put the perfect kick into my own spag. a la vongole, WHAT is the big problem with the genuine Italian chefs and vongole eaters...not to mention every other chef and eater of pesce? WHY the horror of combining fish and cheese? Just to let you know, I haven't actually desecrated my own pasta with clam sauce lunch with any parmesano YET, but I'd love to know why I should refrain - please give me some rational reasoning to underpin what seems to be an absurd, yet unbreakable, culinary law. Cooks from every country and ethnicity are certainly welcome to jump right into the conversation, but cooks and sophisticated eaters bearing authentic Italian DNA are ESPECIALLY welcome to respond, as I'd be very interested to learn any pertinent cultural history, folk tales, grandmas' stories...please do enlighten us! Thanks! P.S. My pasta lunch is getting cold as I type this! Fri Aug 03 13:00:52 -0700 2007 23824 niki rothman 1 2812010 So, is your pasta still uneaten as we speak??? I'd save myself the horror of cold soggy pasta and just add the cheese. Fri Aug 03 15:17:00 -0700 2007 2811479 10980 Blueicus 1 2812030 jfood has heard about NO cheese on pasta with fish. Jfood's response is thanks for the import please pass the romano. anyone who wants to draw a line in the sand on this should also post on the thread about "food snobbery." anyone who does not believe that cheese and seafood do not go together in Italian cooking should venture to New Haven and order a white clam piizza with mozzy. Fri Aug 03 15:23:31 -0700 2007 2811479 11290 jfood 2 2812133 That isn't Italian cooking - it is Italian-American (or more precisely, Italian-USian) cooking, which is a perfectly fine and valid category. (Sounds good, too). I don't know where the taboo came from - indeed when I was living in central Italy the idea was a heresy - but I don't know the origin. I don't think it is just a matter of food snobbery - tradition is not exactly the same thing. Fri Aug 03 16:05:06 -0700 2007 2812030 84119 lagatta 3 2812141 agreed but tradition taken to the extreme equals snobbery. Fri Aug 03 16:09:34 -0700 2007 2812133 11290 jfood 3 2812172 I suspect it is a valid Italian cultural tradition and not an elitist American "foodie" snobbism because I've repeatedly heard it from authentic Italian TV chefs like Gia DeLaurentis, Lidia Bastianich, Mary Ann Esposito, Michael Chiarello. Marcella Hazan, in her "Classic Italian" cookbook mentions aming many fish dishes but one that mentions cheese - adding parmesan to baked oysters, perhaps the exception that proves the rule? Judith Machlin who is the doyen of Jewish Italian cookbook writing, and where it is perfectly permissable to combine fish and dairy for kosherness, omits any recipe where they are combined in the cookbook of her's that I own. Fri Aug 03 16:22:34 -0700 2007 2812133 23824 niki rothman 3 2902452 What in heaven is "Italian-USian"? Italian -American food is somewhat, or very different from Italian food in Italy. It was adapted by Italian immigrants to America who found thery could not get certain ingredients they could easily find in the Old Country, and the plentiful fruits, vegetables, meat, fish, they did not have in Italy. Italian-American Cuisine has morphed into a genuine cuisine of its own. The no cheese with fish custom has nothing to do with snobbery. Most Italians feel that cheese would overwhelm the delicate taste of fish. In Italian American cuisine, cheese is often added to everything, not so in Italy. There are certain foods that call for cheese, others that do not. Sat Sep 01 00:49:45 -0700 2007 2812133 10838 Fleur 4 2902492 Niki, I have two friends who are Italian-Jewish (or Jewish-Italian?) and I have never had any cheesy fish dishes served or prepared by either. But then, their cooking is very Mediterranean (both have Sephardic surnames - there are also Askenazi Jews in Northeastern Italy) and fish would more likely be served with lemon, tomato and other delicious Mediterranean produce. Neither keeps kosher, but the traditional dishes they were making would follow kosher rules, and indeed fish is "neutral", no? Italian-USian (as I had said, a more precise term) - food of Italian origin as it developed in the US. The US is not the only country in America with a very large Italian population. It has the absolute largest numbers in terms of persons of Italian descent, but Argentina is the American country with by far the highest percentage of Italians (some say 40% of the total population) and a very great Italian influence in the cuisine, which there too evolved - and of course there is a lot more meat than in "Italian-Italian" cuisine. Many Argentineans are of Northern Italian ancestry, while more US citizens of Italian descent hail from the Mezzogiorno. Genovese dishes such as the torta pasqualina/pascualina (it. sp.) are very popular in Argentina. In Canada, Molise and Abruzzo (in the centre-south) are among the largest places of Italian emigration. Brazil and Venezuela are also among the American countries with a sizeable Italian population. Sat Sep 01 02:08:44 -0700 2007 2902452 84119 lagatta 4 2902848 There isn't one kind of "Italian food in Italy" and there are great variations regionally and from North to South as Lagatta points out. Many of the immigrants to the US, particularly after WWII, were from Southern Italy which has historically been poorer than Northern Italy. Although they were not able to find many of the products they were used to in their homeland and made substitutions, when they did well in their new country, they were delighted to add more "luxury" products to their meals. They added far more meat, fish and cheese proportionately than the recipes prior generations had used. Not to mention much larger portions. Sat Sep 01 08:52:48 -0700 2007 2902452 32444 MakingSense 5 2912657 <Although they were not able to find many of the products they were used to in their homeland and made substitutions, when they did well in their new country, they were delighted to add more "luxury" products to their meals. They added far more meat, fish and cheese proportionately than the recipes prior generations had used. Not to mention much larger portions.> This was because here in US the precious animal protein was far more easily obtainable! As for missing the cheese on pasta with fish, try toasted breadcrumbs with a little garlic and parsley! That adds the crunch and loads of flavor. Wed Sep 05 10:46:22 -0700 2007 2902848 52499 ChefJune 1 2812199 I say try some without parm, and then try some with. Go with what you prefer, and don't worry too much about tradition. Fri Aug 03 16:30:00 -0700 2007 2811479 21341 hrhboo 2 2812242 ditto. Eat what you like. I, personally, like parm/romano/etc on my shellfish pastas! Fri Aug 03 16:55:07 -0700 2007 2812199 76025 mojoeater 1 2812421 I've heard the 'no cheese with seafood' thing more times than I can count. Recently, within a week of each other, I saw two chefs (one on TV the other at a cooking school) make Lobster Risotto and add grated Parmigiano. The one I was able to tasted in person was awesome. I think it's like wine..... ther are rules and purist opinions, but you should do what tastes good to you. I would guess that the sharp-ish flavor of Parm or Romano would conflict with the subtlety of most seafood, and pure italian cookimg is more about the fish than about the sauce anyway, so I get it. But I see people drinking red wine with fish too, and the same is certainly true of most reds overpowering a delicate poached fish. There's a reason for the 'rule', but you get the largest number of votes. Fri Aug 03 17:53:04 -0700 2007 2811479 11405 Midlife 1 2812444 That is a sad rule, considering how AWESOME parmesano is on pretty much every kind of seafood pasta! Who cares what the rule is. Unless you're out to dinner with someone who holds that perspective, (and even then), it's going in YOUR mouth. Food is to eat for taste. So eat and enjoy! Fri Aug 03 18:01:43 -0700 2007 2811479 114831 gottasay 1 2812447 I think the most direct response is: its not forbidden, its just not, apparently, done very commonly in Italy. In the never ending quest for the "authentic," its easy to turn such everyday realities into "rules." I'd bet that there are people in Italy who do like to have cheese with some seafood...because they like it. Fri Aug 03 18:02:46 -0700 2007 2811479 80141 ccbweb 2 2818208 Really, I'm not worrying about being bad for putting cheese on fish - just wondering about the origins of this tradition culturally, why do people like Mario Batalli get so exercized about it? I'm usually the one who is being excoriated by snobs for breaking the rules, so please understand I don't have any ax to grind one way or another - just want to learn what's the story and why does it seem so important to many real Italian chefs? P.S. I actually added butter, sweated in evoo scallions and garlic, marjoram, plain whole milk yogurt (strange sounding, but I urge you to try it) AND parmesan to my white clam sauce. And was it ever DEE-LICIOUS!!! Mon Aug 06 11:32:34 -0700 2007 2812447 23824 niki rothman 1 2812449 As the fiddler once said: "TRADITION"? My Italian friends (from Italy) tell me that the meals they grew up eating were rigidly standardized by region/city, time of day, and day of the week. If you were in Rome, or Florence, and it was time for the midday meal, you knew exactly what you would be having. Everything else on a restaurant menu was for the tourists. The no cheese on fish rule strikes me as more of the same. No personal expertise to share on this, but I've been hearing it for decades. Pass the Reggiano. Fri Aug 03 18:03:52 -0700 2007 2811479 23411 embee 1 2812468 Try it with the Parmigiano and if you like it, "bend the rules"...then have a cappuccino after 10am... Fri Aug 03 18:12:50 -0700 2007 2811479 15835 Husky 2 2812484 No cheese (especially Parm) on fish is simple. Fish is delicate. Cheese (again, especially Parm) is not. The thought is that cheese will overpower the fish. Fri Aug 03 18:19:24 -0700 2007 2812468 116629 altajoe 3 2812516 But clams are not fish and they are not delicate at all in my opinion... is it an overall seafood rule or just a fish rule? Fri Aug 03 18:36:43 -0700 2007 2812484 114831 gottasay 4 2812551 In general, its not just the fish or shellfish. Its the condimento, which is usually delicate. A light tomato base or oil is intended to accompany. To an Italian, putting cheese on a seafood dish is the equivalent to salting without trying it first, a no-no in any country. One more consideration is that by grabbing the cheese you are implying that the fish/shellfish is not fresh and needs to be masked. Fri Aug 03 18:53:19 -0700 2007 2812516 116629 altajoe 4 2812648 I noticed the ONLY place Marcella Hazan conjoins fish and cheese in her cookbook index is for oysters and parm. Fri Aug 03 19:49:26 -0700 2007 2812516 23824 niki rothman 5 2813721 I love Marcella, but she can be something of a dilettante. Like the rest of her ilk, she is only a guide, and ought to encourage her readers to taste and decide for themselves. Sat Aug 04 11:13:07 -0700 2007 2812648 59213 mymymichl 3 2813336 True, but if the OP tries it and likes it, who cares? Sat Aug 04 07:57:08 -0700 2007 2812484 15835 Husky 4 2813653 Two answers to that: 1) Nobody. The OP can put whatever she wants on her dish. 2) Me and many others, if we're eating at her house and she's already put the cheese on the dish. The answer is do what you like. But because it's a tradition you may not agree with, don't assume everyone else is with you. I used to eat cheese on top of all of my pasta dishes growing up. Then I started trying some dishes without cheese, like white clam sauce or mussels or tuna, and I learned I liked them better without the cheese. Sat Aug 04 10:45:45 -0700 2007 2813336 24421 Panini Guy 3 2818977 AJ's point really is at the core of the original tradition. This basis does seem most appropriate to the more delicately sweet, impeccably fresh fish. Mon Aug 06 14:37:44 -0700 2007 2812484 72742 Craterellus 1 2812679 I'm still unclear on the "seafood" part. It seems like the rule is pretty much absolute with fish, but not with shellfish. In any case, that's how I've interpreted it - OK on shellfish, not on fish. Fri Aug 03 20:05:06 -0700 2007 2811479 113375 salutlemonde 2 2912672 Not ok on shellfish, either! But do as YOU like! Wed Sep 05 10:49:44 -0700 2007 2812679 52499 ChefJune 1 2812822 Similar discussion a while back, which got quickly to the issue of pungent cheese overpowering delicate fish. http://www.chowhound.com/topics/354454 This spring in Rome I had the pleasure of a pasta dish featuring fresh anchovies and pecorino. Strong fish + salty cheese = delicious. And this was at La Campana, a traditional restaurant. Fri Aug 03 21:49:27 -0700 2007 2811479 10032 david kaplan 1 2812843 I TOTALLY DIDN'T EVEN REALIZE THIS! My family has never ever ever put cheese on anything with fish or shellfish in it and I just never even thought to do it. This is so strange! Fri Aug 03 21:59:20 -0700 2007 2811479 113604 JFores 1 2813495 Another "italian authenticity" question ? :) Here's my input: I do think that cheese would usually work against seafood dishes, particularly if the dish tastes distinctly of fish (probably why it's considered heresy to add cheese in an italian restaurant). For example, no one on my Italian side would put cheese on fried flounder, calamari, baked fish. But I've had gnocchi with clams and a light tomato-cream sauce at my uncle's restaurant in Naples. I once had a Sicilian boyfriend, studying here, who came to dinner for linguine alla vongole at my dad's house. My dad makes a great clam sauce: parsley, garlic, olive oil, white wine, fresh clams and their filtered juice. We always put parmigiano on it - we passed to the Sicilian at the table and he says - no one does it in public but we do it at home. And he put cheese on the pasta. Now, the clams we use are very fresh New England clams (so fresh that if need be they last unharmed in the refrigerator for weeks) but dont' have a delicate flavor like the small clams I found in Italy. The garlicky-parsley part of my dad's pasta is enhanced by the cheese and the clams don't have a very strong flavor. I also like pecorino with the anchovy, olive, parsley, and fresh tuna linguine that I make. I think it depends on how strong the fish flavor is. I also think it's kind of gross on shrimp. Sat Aug 04 09:29:19 -0700 2007 2811479 11190 fara 2 2817260 Have you ever tried shrimp with cheese grits? It might convert you. Mon Aug 06 07:54:00 -0700 2007 2813495 11995 pikawicca 3 2818233 Shrimp and Grits is MUCH better if you don't serve it with cheese grits. Try using good quality grits instead. The cheese detracts from this dish IMO. Wouldn't have been used in the simple Low Country original anyway. Just a recent change, likely a Food Network or restaurant froo-froo version by those who can't leave well-enough alone. People can do as they please though. Why not just serve the shrimp over brown rice or quinoa? Mon Aug 06 11:38:41 -0700 2007 2817260 32444 MakingSense 4 2819708 I've had shrimp and grits with and without cheese, and prefer the cheese. But isn't that what it's all about: personal preference? Mon Aug 06 18:42:39 -0700 2007 2818233 76025 mojoeater 1 2813673 Rule one is if you like it then eat it and don't give a damn what anyone else thinks. That said, the italians (me too) feel their perfectly fresh fish is so excellent that its flavor deserves to NOT be masked by the strong cheesy taste. Still, if you must use cheese, try it just once sparingly to see how you like it. You mught decide you enjoy fish. Sat Aug 04 10:52:34 -0700 2007 2811479 59213 mymymichl 2 2813736 So interesting! I agree with the suggestions to eat what you like, but the sound of fish and cheese makes me want to barf... and I'm not Italian. (But I was married to one for 5 years) Sat Aug 04 11:24:05 -0700 2007 2813673 99134 Texchef 3 2813825 jfood felt the same way when he read that people put mayo on hot dogs. whatever works and people enjoy is perfect in jfood's book. Heck, little jfoods put ketchup on hot dogs and mustard on roast beef sandwiches. jfood does not agree but when he serves the family that what he serves. Sat Aug 04 12:17:20 -0700 2007 2813736 11290 jfood 4 2813838 I wonder, too, if it's a regional thing. My family lives just south of Rome, and there is plentiful cheese, game, veggies, fruits and pasta, but no fish, as the village is inland and they are very proud of their indigenous foods. Perhaps the combo isn't traditional because there aren't many places that specializein/produce both cheese and seafood. Just a thought.... Sat Aug 04 12:26:31 -0700 2007 2813825 46777 ctscorp 5 2817229 that's my thinking too. long ago and far away, regions of what is now italy were disparate and not much mingling occurred. local foods and local cuisine stayed that way for centuries. easy access to many ingredients is a very modern thing. since food is practically holy in italy, people don't mess with it. americans have a fondness for overloading dishes. whenever i come home from italy or spain it always takes a while for my palate to recalibrate. i eat so simply while there: perfect ingredients, simply presented. maybe try a dash of sea salt instead of cheese? just a thought... Mon Aug 06 07:46:23 -0700 2007 2813838 30273 hotoynoodle 6 2817271 Yes, many American palates - so accustomed to either the flavors of processed foods or BIG! BOLD! FRUITY/SPICY! flavors - do not adjust well to food that's more simply seasoned. Cheese - like hot pepper - becomes a universal seasoning (like ketchup and mustard used to be for so many people). Mon Aug 06 07:57:15 -0700 2007 2817229 13819 Karl S 1 2816868 A couple of different things: 1. As for sharp cheese and seafood: I recall reading somewhere that one usually unspoken reason for the tradition developing is that the synergistic combination reminds many people of vomit. If you've burped the combo, you may understand why that can be so. 2. Cream and seafood: too much cream obscures the flavor of delicate flavored seafood. Mon Aug 06 02:42:25 -0700 2007 2811479 13819 Karl S 2 2818653 inland regions like emiglia-romano are known for meats and cheeses -- reggiano, prosciutto, etc. seaside regions are not. they had easy access to day-boat seafood, but not dairy. over the centuries, they simply cooked what was readily available, and dishes became known in that traditional fashion. it's not that complicated, lol. i also think americans are accustomed to having cheese on everything, so it's a go-to for them. it certainly adds flavor if the tomatoes in your sauce were picked a week ago and shipped 1500 miles and your fish was purchased frozen. typical american cooking is the antithesis of the italians, who most typically shop daily for dinner and buy local ingredients, in season. americans have to compensate for food that lacks real flavor of its own. Mon Aug 06 13:17:54 -0700 2007 2816868 30273 hotoynoodle 1 2818224 In Salerno, the very nice woman who was running the small restaurant let me know in no uncertain terms (even though her English and my Italian were both all but nonexistent) that you do NOT put the parmigiana on the linguini alla vongole. I conformed to her demands with never a murmur...but the very first kind of clam sauce I ever tasted was essentially pesto with clams added - yes, cheese and all - and it was awfully good! I think what it comes down to is simply this: Italians don't like seafood and cheese together, just like they typically don't care for raw onion or dead-ripe raw tomatoes. It's a cultural thing. As for me, there are several dishes mixing seafood and cheese that I love; yes, the sharp cheddar in my tuna casserole DOES have some flavor characteristics not unlike barf, but I happen to enjoy that kind of thing. There are all kinds of raunchy or perhaps unmentionable things that the smell of (for instance) fish can bring to mind, not to mention ripe Camembert... Mon Aug 06 11:36:08 -0700 2007 2811479 11478 Will Owen 2 2818250 Sexy Will Owen! But Will...since when was tuna noodle casserole considered fine Italian cuisine? And surely the Italians would be the last people on earth to cringe at the thought of anything on the cheesy OR fishy side? It's their horror of the combining of these ingredients, which are just as cheesy and funky fishy as they wanna be standing alone, that is so weird and fascinating. Mon Aug 06 11:44:06 -0700 2007 2818224 23824 niki rothman 2 2818731 I'm with Will here. My original answer to the original question was "Because it tastes ooky to combine fish and cheese". But, as with all things, there are ammendments. Parm on Linguine alla Vongole doesn't faze me. I've been known to put parm on a pasta with a creamy seafood sauce- and there's a place in CT I'm thinking of right now that's making my mouth water. "Yes, I'd love some freshly grated parm, thank you" I say with a smile and lean waaay back so the waiter can adequately cheese me. But "stuffed fish" where one of those stuffings in cheesey- blech. Mon Aug 06 13:34:32 -0700 2007 2818224 50776 cheesemonger 1 2818736 OK, other than Altajoe, David Kaplan and fara, no one has made anyheadways into the actual WHY of not putting cheese with fish. Where is a food anthropologist when we need one. Mon Aug 06 13:36:27 -0700 2007 2811479 11826 Phaedrus 2 2818823 why are you completely discounting the historical reality of the availability of only the most local ingredients? please see my posts above. Mon Aug 06 13:59:10 -0700 2007 2818736 30273 hotoynoodle 3 2818869 Good point, because I missed it. Sorry. Mon Aug 06 14:12:04 -0700 2007 2818823 11826 Phaedrus 3 2819482 Uh, and mine, which preceded yours, hotoynoodle! ;) Mon Aug 06 17:24:26 -0700 2007 2818823 46777 ctscorp 2 2818971 I think hotoynoodle has an excellent point. We never seem to give enough weight to the idea that people didn't always have access to or even interest in food products from even a small distance away. If you lived by the sea, you ate fish. The land there wasn't good for grass, hence no pastures for dairy cattle and no dairy products. The dairy regions for the most part were far from the fishing ports. Traditions and habits developed and there were regional aspects to them. I also agree that there is a taste issue. Certain combinations taste awful and Italians just know that. We should perhaps leave American preferences out of the discussion for the short term because it confuses the issue. Of course, it's your right to melt Velveeta on your shrimp scampi if it makes you happy. The OP asked the question: Why is the general rule such as it is? Why are there a few exceptions? Not whether YOU break the rule or not. Mon Aug 06 14:35:57 -0700 2007 2818736 32444 MakingSense 3 2819039 it irks me though that all too often americans think food traditions have no validity or that there is no reason behind them. that everything is just some fool rule from the food police. eat whatever you like at home. sure. but i think the scoffing at tradition is unnecessary. Mon Aug 06 14:52:46 -0700 2007 2818971 30273 hotoynoodle 3 2821282 Brilliant! In our modern world we are jaded to easily availability of foods from far, far away - brought to our greedy mouths via destruction of the ozone layer through motor exhaust. But for most folks still living in undeveloped areas, or everybody not fabulously wealthy up until the industrial revolution, you basically ate ONLY what grew or lived rather near your home. But here in the 21st century, as the song says, "...Anything goes!" Even middle class people are spoiled by the expectation of being able to get any food from anywhere on earth at any time. I don't know what's happening in Italy, but I live in northern California on the coast and driving north or south one commonly sees rural coastal hillsides practically awash in grazing dairy cows. And I remember from my days living in Oregon, sometoimes even wading contentedly in the surf! Tue Aug 07 08:48:51 -0700 2007 2818971 23824 niki rothman 2 2819063 When Mario Batalli talks about the issue of how the Italians feel about fish he rapsodizes and obsesses about the Italians having a very deep need to feel fish has come straight from the ocean onto your plate. Pristene freshness. Delicacy. The less human hands have intervened the better. (VIRGINITY issues feature large in the Latin Catholic church. They have a cult of Mary.) Cheese is profoundly un-virginal. Cheese is a product VERY far from the cow. Messed with quite a bit, sometimes over years. The diamtetrical OPPOSITE of fresh, untouched, virginally pure and unmessed with by human hands - fish. Just getting into some symbolism here. Mon Aug 06 15:00:17 -0700 2007 2818736 23824 niki rothman 3 2819094 i think you answered your own question here :). to simplify: it doesn't go on so many levels. at least prepared simply, nello stilo italiano. there is actually a thread on the perfect (simple)clam sauce in home cooking right now, in which I have given my father's perfect recipe. http://www.chowhound.com/topics/428018 however your version above doesn't sound Italian so much as northern european? it sounds like it would go well with cheese, and you already have the dairy in it. Mon Aug 06 15:12:58 -0700 2007 2819063 11190 fara 3 2911311 I think you have touched upon an important element of the fundamental argument here (that fish is delicate and its flavor should be respected, not masked): the fact that fish come from the sea, and Italians expect their fish to taste that way. Here in the States, many of us have become accustomed to fish that is "farmed", or fish that was once fresh and wild, but has traveled and lost some of its essence, not to mention fish that is "cleaned" beyond recognition. We (for the most part) expect our fish to smell as little as possible, and often encounter "seafood" that bears almost no resemblance to the living fish it once was (no head, scales, shells, or bones, for example). I know Italians who don't order fish in much of the US because, as they have told me, "it doesn't taste of the sea". Tue Sep 04 21:36:22 -0700 2007 2819063 102095 vvvindaloo 4 2911848 How often do we hear people say, "I really like XXX. It doesn't taste 'fishy' at all." Wed Sep 05 06:54:05 -0700 2007 2911311 32444 MakingSense 5 2915428 people do the same with meat - skinless, boneless chicken breast tastes much less of chicken than bone-in, or thigh. cheese -preferably no flavor used to be the standard. eggs, etc. did we have some kind of wave of distribution of spoiled food in this country or something? would make sense. fish even now needs to travel way too far. it's not the same but I buy frozen wild fish b/c I don't live on the coast. (as most of you know most fish has been frozen anyway, might as well buy it before it's been defrosted). Thu Sep 06 06:03:53 -0700 2007 2911848 11190 fara 6 2915974 You are completely correct. In fact, this point occurred to me shortly after I posted my comment re: fish. Unless you go well out of your way to buy meat that is "free range", "organic" no hormones/antibiotics, etc., your meat (especially chicken) is likely to taste more like the factory it was made in that the animal it is purported to be. In a country like Italy, on the other hand, chicken still tastes like chicken. And even fish that has traveled an hour or so from the coast is considered less desirable than eating food that is local. Thu Sep 06 08:53:20 -0700 2007 2915428 102095 vvvindaloo 1 2819023 My 100% pedigree qualifies me to answer! Actually, I think it is more tradition than rule. Most genuine Italian dishes are actually quite uncomplicated and the flavor of each ingredient is usually discernable. Fish sauces tend to be either very light, such as white clam sauce, or bold such as Fra Diavolo (at least in the U.S). In any case, it usually cooks quickly and is made simply. Grated cheese just doesn't seem to be necessary to enjoy either the subtlety or the big, bold flavor. However, many years ago, when I dated a Sicilian guy from Brooklyn, his family cooked "Shrimp Parmigiana" for Christmas Eve. Yes, breaded and covered with red sauce and mozzarella. Typical marinara sauce with medium seasoning, and mozzarella went with it just as well as it would have over a chicken cutlet. It was something I had never eaten before, and it was delicious. That said, my own mother wrinkled her brow when I told her what had been on the menu. There is certainly no dietary restriction or religious tradition that I know of, although it is possible that the traditional Friday meals (non-meat), which were supposed to be simple meals and/or fasts, just seemed too rich with cheese. Mon Aug 06 14:49:27 -0700 2007 2811479 87837 RGC1982 2 2819082 shrimp parmigiana would never be on a christmas eve table in sicily, lol. italian-american food (on which i grew up!) is often a completely different thing. maybe that's why americans think italian food always needs cheese. Mon Aug 06 15:07:55 -0700 2007 2819023 30273 hotoynoodle 2 2819129 Actually, historically there *was* a restriction. For centuries, restrictions on eating meat on Fridays and during Lent included restrictions on the use of dairy products. In northern Europe, where oil was rare, people effectively purchased indults to be exempt (the cause of the famous "butter towers" of Gothic northern Europe). In Italy, where oil was more readily available, there was less cause for those exceptions. While the restrictions on dairy faded a long time ago in the Roman church, they still exist in eastern Christian churches (even oil is proscribed on certain days). You want a completely vegan, low-fat cuisine?: look at recipes designed for eastern orthodox Lent... Mon Aug 06 15:21:34 -0700 2007 2819023 13819 Karl S 1 2863550 I learned about no parmigiano on seafood on my 1st trip to visit my family in Italy (Albisola SV about a 1/2 NW of Genova on the coast). Another thing I learned was, do not put parmigiano on gnocchi with a ragu di funghi (mushroom sauce). I guess it goes in the same category as "letting the ingredients speak for themselves". Don't make them fight for attention. The ragu di funghi was just olive oil and mushrooms. I can't remember if the mushrooms were porcini or if they were dried or fresh. Sorry, I drank too much grappa. Mon Aug 20 15:23:18 -0700 2007 2811479 120793 peppino 1 2863887 As full disclosure, I am not Italian, but a strongly formative influence on my life was a woman from Friuli, a region with its own cuisine (and, arguably, language). The rule is usually formulated "no cheese with seafood" (fish or anything else), because the usual cheese would be parmigiano, romano, or something similar. To my mind, it's a very good rule of thumb, because the sharpness of the cheese overpowers the subtlety of the seafood. From experience, I agree with the rule. That said, sometimes ricotta salata will be found with seafood in Italy, but it's so much milder than the above cheeses, that it doesn't overpower the flavour of the plate. As well, I allow *one* exception from French cuisine (which I love, but whose allowance of cheese with fish I cannot understand): the great, dense, sinisterly dark fish south from the south-west of France, along the Biscay, which can stand a bit of grated cheese only because it is so strongly flavoured. I'm sure that there's a biochemist here who could explain this. After all, many, if not most, rules about food/food and food/wine pairings have some basis in biochemistry. Mon Aug 20 16:58:55 -0700 2007 2811479 91415 hungry_pangolin 2 2863958 Hungry pangolin, please do tell us all about this strange, dark, sinister fish - sounds like something Herman Melville would have enjoyed hearing about! Or are you thinking of herring? Mon Aug 20 17:24:56 -0700 2007 2863887 23824 niki rothman 3 2865415 Niki - The *soup* ("south" was a typo, though we could rename this "soupe Melville", or "soupe Nemo") is onion, garlic, fennel, tomato, fish (whole whiting I usually use), orange zest, saffron, bouquet garni, pernod, simmered together. The liquid is strained off, then what remains in the pot is pulverised (veg and fish remains), and then forced through the strainer again. Serve with rustically cut croutons with rouille, and grated parmegiano or gruyere. I prefer a thirst-quenching white with this (I like a viognier), but the flavours are strong enough that a good rose or gamay (even slightly chilled) are good matches. So, you see, it is the soup that is sinisterly dark, not the kraken you were led by my typo to believe was involved. Tue Aug 21 07:53:12 -0700 2007 2863958 91415 hungry_pangolin 4 2867312 The soup is Bourride, usually served with aioli. Common in French provincial cooking. All over in Brittany. I don't remember it being served with cheese in that area. Tue Aug 21 14:56:56 -0700 2007 2865415 32444 MakingSense 5 2868764 It struck me as more regional. I never saw anything like it in the north or east. Wed Aug 22 05:15:58 -0700 2007 2867312 91415 hungry_pangolin 2 2864181 OK, that explanation makes a lot more sense than sheer food snobbery. Mon Aug 20 18:30:53 -0700 2007 2863887 11826 Phaedrus 1 2864284 Again, I like to temper the "do what you like" attitude with a little curiousity as to why certain rules exist. On my first trip to Italy (Rome specifically) I ordered a seafood risotto at a restaurant. The waiter brought it to the table and I asked for cheese. He told me in very slow and clear English "sir we do not serve this with cheese because it would overpower the fish". Now, I could have demanded cheese but I didn't. I ate it as suggested and really enjoyed it. Would it have tasted good with cheese? Sure. Would it have tasted better with cheese? Maybe. Would I have been able to appreciate the briney delicate oceany clams and shrimp and broth (which is what the meal is about) with cheese? No way. Mon Aug 20 19:02:54 -0700 2007 2811479 26180 Chinon00 2 2864349 I think the way to do it is to follow the tradition, and if you don't agree with the tradition, do your own thing at home. Mon Aug 20 19:24:28 -0700 2007 2864284 11826 Phaedrus 3 2899820 Although jfood enjoys grated cheese on seafood, he would never embarass self or staff by insisting on cheese if the resto is adverse. There is a courtesy that the custo must show to the resto as well that trnascends the custo is always right mentality. Fri Aug 31 07:55:52 -0700 2007 2864349 11290 jfood 1 2868079 I think it transcends Italy. I'm pretty sure it's rare in France and many other places. I say NO to cheese and seafood. "Eat what you like" is too facile an answer. Tastes have to be developed. To me, it's like people who smother every sandwich with mayo. The cheese is a crutch. Tue Aug 21 19:10:44 -0700 2007 2811479 10156 Steve 2 2868114 Interesting point Steve. Kind of like drowning good pasta in red sauce because this is what everyone does, while I had a minimalist pasta dish when I was young and it was a revelation. Tue Aug 21 19:23:15 -0700 2007 2868079 11826 Phaedrus 3 2868203 And cheese is one of those things that makes just about anything taste better or richer at least because, well, it's cheese. Sort of like the same way frying makes things taste tastier. Tue Aug 21 20:09:43 -0700 2007 2868114 26180 Chinon00 2 2868196 I don't think there are that many French dishes that use cheese with seafood. Mornay sauce. With scallops for Coquille St.-Jacques. Sometimes with baked oysters. But they're used in prep not at the table. And in very small quantities, almost as a seasoning. Maybe you're right that because we've gotten used to putting cheese on Italian on the US, almost as a reflex, we just do it without thinking. I'm with you, Steve: Just say NO. Tue Aug 21 20:04:51 -0700 2007 2868079 32444 MakingSense 2 2876629 That's certainly the case here in Spain. As a general rule, there is less reliance on sauces and add ons for flavor, because the flavor of the main ingredients drives the dish. Simple is nearly always better if you have good ingredients. Fri Aug 24 04:55:23 -0700 2007 2868079 10661 butterfly 1 2900761 Just out of curiosity, I punched the following search into epicurious: Main course + Italian + fish + cheese I got 292 results. Fri Aug 31 11:30:25 -0700 2007 2811479 23294 madisoneats 2 2901291 Yes, but that was in English. Fri Aug 31 13:57:28 -0700 2007 2900761 84119 lagatta 3 2902235 while i enjoy epicurious, it wouldn't be my go-to source for authentic italian cuisine either. Fri Aug 31 20:55:29 -0700 2007 2901291 30273 hotoynoodle 2 2902818 Epicurious also has 59 Cool Whip recipes and you know what kind of fights that always starts on Chowhound! They just put stuff out there. Not necessarily a reliable source. Like Wiki and Google, a good starting place, but you've got to dig deeper for accurate research. Sat Sep 01 08:36:08 -0700 2007 2900761 32444 MakingSense 1 2902646 Jfood is not a big fan of sub-categorizing foods so the Italian-American, Jewish-Italian, Franco-Prussian sorta gets grey to thisold dog, just looking for good food. That being said and jfood feels a little better before his walk, he does not have any issue with the cheese "overpowering" the delicate flavor of the fish. Everyone has a different palate and jfood is sensitive to some flavors more thanothers and vice versa. Last night he made a halibut in which he thought the cumin overpowered the other flavors and mrs jfood disagreed. c'est la vie. jfood loves the delicacy of the fish with a stronger cheese on to as a compliment, others may not. So jfood may be luck that he tastes the subltlety that others might miss but jfood is also upset that for other dishes he can not taste the subtleties. c'est la vie. Sat Sep 01 06:45:07 -0700 2007 2811479 11290 jfood 1 2903554 Fish on Friday. No cheese on Friday. Ergo, no cheese on fish. At least that's my guess. Plus Parma's about as far from the sea as you can get and still be in Italy, as has been noted a couple of times. They don't even have a river. On a practical note, when your clam sauce seems to be asking for cheese it probably just wants a little more salt and olive oil. Sat Sep 01 15:18:47 -0700 2007 2811479 25310 Chuckles the Clone 1 2908110 one thing i don't think i've seen mentioned yet is the use of bread crumbs in place of grated hard cheeses with seafood in italian cooking. i see toasted bread crumbs come up over and over again when i look over my italian cookbooks and recipes. i know this doesn't shed more light on WHY cheese and seafood in the same dish is discouraged, but i think it shows that there seems to be a steadfast tradition in italy of adding the texture of toasted bread crumbs to seafood dishes. and i've read several recipes and books that explain that bread crumbs are often used as a sort of "poor man's " cheese. obviously, grated cheese melts into hot food, but there is a textural similarity. and while bread crumbs could never add the rich and complex flavors of parmiagiano or pecorino romano, etc., it wouldn't give the seafood that..funky flavor that some people object to. anyways, if anyone is on the fence, maybe try adding toasted bread crumbs to your seafood pastas and see how that sits with you. i think this is ultimately cultural. if i'm offered cheese with my seafood at a restaurant, it's a 50% chance that i will or won't accept it, based on whim. if i was in a restaurant that frowned on it, i wouldn't ask for it and wouldn't miss it, either. i respect food traditions, even if i don't keep them. BUT, for god's sake, niki rothman, please enjoy your meal while it's still hot! these burning questions for chowhound can always be employed afterwards to postpone washing the dishes. Tue Sep 04 03:38:54 -0700 2007 2811479 27741 augustiner 2 2908158 a cursory glance through my marcella hazan book, a woman famous for her strict, almost intimidating adherence to italian food traditions, showed several seafood pastas (i only flipped through the pasta chapter) with breadcrumbs. BUT, i also saw two recipes combining seafood and cheese. one featured anchovies and parmigiano-reggiano, which brings to mind the strong fish-strong cheese argument. but the other was a tortellini stuffed with fish which featured sea bass or any similar, delicate fish, and both parmiagiano reggiano and pecorino romano. whether these are recipes of her own or local, traditional ones, the book doesn't say. but if marcella hazan sometimes mixes the two, i imagine there are probably many tasty exceptions to the rule, even in italy. again, i'm not making an argument for or against the rule, but i figured there would be exceptions to it even within italian culture. and italian cuisine is super-regional isn't it? but if an italian cook from the inland north has access to fresh fish now, would they add cheese to those dishes? agh. both trips there as a young child i insisted on eating lasagna ALL the time, regardless of where we were. if only i could afford to go there now! Tue Sep 04 04:38:01 -0700 2007 2908110 27741 augustiner 2 2910131 I must respond to your passion, in worrying that my lunch that day not be ruined. And the response must come in the form of a confession that is sort of embarrassing but should at least be reasuring to you kind chowhounds who have feared for the ruination of a perfect al dente lunch supposedly sitting around getting soft and unappetizing. A health issue forces me to eat my pasta overcooked - and off the boil. I've come to actually prefer it that way. Odd how necessity has a tendency to become preference given only the passage of time. But, thanks so much to all of you who went a little nuts when I wrote how my pasta was sitting around while I was typing to you. I love it that you care! Tue Sep 04 14:55:02 -0700 2007 2908110 23824 niki rothman 1 2908511 I think that it might be important to know WHY it's done but in the end it'll be up to you whether you'd use cheese on fish or not. I think that is far worse to comply with "tradition" and not really know why or what the functionality of the tradition actually is. Tue Sep 04 07:55:00 -0700 2007 2811479 26180 Chinon00 1 2910303 I wonder if the strong middle eastern roots of Italy has anything to do with not combining dairy with seafood... sort of a linger cultural-religious vestige... that everybody observes subconsciously without exactly knowing why. Tue Sep 04 15:44:51 -0700 2007 2811479 42572 Eat_Nopal 2 2910335 I think it's the opposite--if you look at it from a global perspective--the tendency to put cheese on top of fish (or meat, beans or many other types of food) is the more strange and unusual of the two tendencies... My theory is that Americans tend to do this more because their meat and fish, speaking generally, tends to be less flavorful. Tue Sep 04 15:52:25 -0700 2007 2910303 10661 butterfly 3 2910428 Hi butterfly, Or, it could be that we Americans basic character involves insisting on gilding the lily wherever and whenever possible because we are spoiled by just being used to having too much food - and that of mediocre quality? But you are definitely onto something, after reading your post about the lack of flavor generally in our meats and fish, I flashed on a TV commercial that i have noticed I gag on whenever I see it recently - for Applebee's or Friday's or Tuesday's or someother misbegotten chain restaurant perhaps in the guise of a day of the week. You are invited to enjoy their latest abomination in the form of otherwise probably simply defrosted, naked, flavorless chicken breasts with yellow oleagenous, generic cheese-product melted all over them. God help me, I wish I could remember what moniker these nasty protein slabs are masquerading under - no doubt with unintentional irony. Maybe another chowhound can help me out. Surely, the name could not help being more imaginative than the actual food offering. Unfortunately, in these places the name on the menu always sounds delicious but has nothing to do with what actually shows up on your plate. ITEM: "Dry, tasteless protein swimming in melted (but rapidly congealing) tasteless cheese product" - how's that for truth in advertising? Wouldn't sell very well though, would it? Tue Sep 04 16:18:50 -0700 2007 2910335 23824 niki rothman 4 2911850 And that's because boneless skinless chicken breast as commonly consumed in the US is worse than tofu (which is not a knock against tofu). Unless it's quality chicken supremes cooked in a more classic non-American manner, generally boneless chicken breast is the nastiest thing on many menus. Wed Sep 05 06:55:00 -0700 2007 2910428 13819 Karl S 3 2911239 Come to think of it, are there *any* fish dishes that americans generally eat that contain cheese? Tuna melts and tuna noodle casserole maybe, but anything else? I wonder if the question would be better reframed, "why do americans instinctively toss cheese on everything italian?" Tue Sep 04 21:04:42 -0700 2007 2910335 25310 Chuckles the Clone 4 2911277 Fantastic point! I think that it is just perfunctory. Tue Sep 04 21:19:35 -0700 2007 2911239 26180 Chinon00 4 2911904 "why do americans instinctively toss cheese on everything italian?" And Mexican and many other types of foods... When I go back to visit the US, it's the one thing that I notice right away--copious amounts of flavorless cheese and sauce. Wed Sep 05 07:19:35 -0700 2007 2911239 10661 butterfly 3 2912087 Do you realize that you just insulted more than half of the world's population? 1) Chinese, Mexican & Indian (arguably 3 of the most influential culinary traditions of all time) have strong traditions of saucing fish... it may not be cheese but in many of their dishes the protein is just another ingredient in the sauce. Some would argue that Classic French & Roman would also fit in in this sauce-phyllic label. 2) The argument that Americans dress up fish because it is less flavorful is absolutely wrong. Stronger tasting fish (or beef, lamb, goat, turkey if they case might be) is MORE adept for taking on stronger flavors. U.S. protein was genetically engineered towards blandness not in the last 2 decades when sauces became more important in the U.S. gastronomy but in the 1950's when Americans DID NOT eat ethnic, DID NOT like spicy foods, DID NOT have salsa as the #1 condiment... back then for many people the flavoring repertoire was simply salt, pepper & butter. 3) I've had Italian food that is sauced enough to where the character of the seafood is masked. The classic Cioppinos come to mind, or perhaps Clams in White Wine, Garlic & Parsley.... in either case the seafood just becomes part of the whole... and in both cases... CHEESE IS NOT A STRONGER FLAVORED INGREDIENT THAN EITHER SAUCE. So now its time to get back to trying to uncover the real reasons... Wed Sep 05 08:24:40 -0700 2007 2910335 42572 Eat_Nopal 4 2912305 I'm not sure if you are responding to me, if so, I can't understand what part of what I wrote that you are responding to, because there seems to be a major leap in subject matter (Chinese sauces? 1950s cuisine?). At no point did I insult half of the planet... on the contrary. My point was that adding cheese to main dishes involving fish is, from a global perspective, quite an unusual practice. The absense of such a practice doesn't, in my mind, necessarily point to Jewish and/or Muslim practices that are lodged in the collective unconscious of a country's gastronomy. It seems to me, cheese is clearly an added fat used to create "comfort food". Where I live this is achieved with pork or olive oil instead. Wed Sep 05 09:23:02 -0700 2007 2912087 10661 butterfly 5 2912534 "I think it's the opposite--if you look at it from a global perspective--the tendency to put cheese on top of fish (or meat, beans or many other types of food) is the more strange and unusual of the two tendencies" That is what I was referring to. The Chinese & Indians (almost 1/2 of the world's population) like to top their fish with other types of food. Add to them any cuisine of Chinese derivation, Mexican, Latin American & even Italian. No its not strange. Evolved cuisines tend to use sauces (a more complex & sophisticated process than just simply grilling or pan frying a fish). Wed Sep 05 10:18:12 -0700 2007 2912305 42572 Eat_Nopal 5 2912538 Sorry I misunderstood your statement. You were saying that putting cheese on top of fish or meats, or beans is strange... and I thought you were saying that putting meat, beans or any other food on top of fish was strange. Wed Sep 05 10:19:53 -0700 2007 2912305 42572 Eat_Nopal 6 2913511 Right, I wasn't talking about Chinese sauces or any other such thing that might insult half of the planet. This thread is about putting cheese on fish. Wed Sep 05 13:56:34 -0700 2007 2912538 10661 butterfly 5 2912568 Butterfly - sprinkling or shaving parm or romano on food is hardly making it comfort food. i don't think you're talking about the same thing we are. we're talking about a sprinkling, not complete coverage. aren't we? Wed Sep 05 10:25:09 -0700 2007 2912305 116638 southernitalian 1 2911877 As much as I love mussells marinara and it SEEMS like I should be sprinkling parm on them, I can never bring myself to do it. it just seems wrong. Fish and cheese? Never! Ever! My grandmothers would spin in their graves. And yet my greatest indulgence (especially while pregnant) is a McDonald's Filet-o-Fish. Unbelievably tasty, always perfect. A piece of mystery fish with a slice of cheese. And it works. Go figure. Wed Sep 05 07:04:29 -0700 2007 2811479 116638 southernitalian 2 2912101 I just had my first ever Filet-o-Fish and the first thing that I told my wife was... "Pretty good, but have they always served it with cheese? It seems so irrelevant" Wed Sep 05 08:27:43 -0700 2007 2911877 42572 Eat_Nopal 3 2912628 In Sicily and Sardinia, which have traditions of cheesemaking and are surrounded be the sea, cheese (pecorino) is used with breadcrumbs and herbs to stuff sardines and swordfish. This is probably a seasoning (salty cheese seasons the stuffing - like marinating lamb in salted anchovies). I believe that most Italians are pragmatic about it and don't season seafood with cheese because it's just not very good - and interferes with the focus of Italian cooking: impeccable, fresh products cooked simply. Wed Sep 05 10:39:21 -0700 2007 2912101 103794 pankofish 1 4277952 I am Irish/Welch and my wife is Italian. She was raised on Long Island and is a wonderful Italian cook. She cooks both Italian/American and 100% Italian. I asked her about this topic. She just laughed. I asked why she is laughing and she said that it doesn't matter how you prepare or use in a recipe as long as it taste good! She also stated that all cultures have some really outstanding recipes that stand alone, but it isn't a sin to adapt a recipe to ones one taste of spices and herbs or in this case putting some cheese on fish and pasta. Sun Dec 28 12:48:55 -0800 2008 2811479 252045 wedw3 1 4281158 It isn't forbidden, but it just tastes weird and unpleasant to me. Do what you like, but the combination of romano or parmigiano with fish is something I find hugely unappealing. We would have bread crumbs sautéed in olive oil as a topping for pastas that had fish in them -- pasta con le sarde in particular. Similarly, Italians for the most part, don't use cheese on pastas containing hot red pepper flakes -- al'matriciana being the notable exception. Putanesca, for example, with hot peppers and anchovies, never has cheese. Mon Dec 29 15:50:35 -0800 2008 2811479 34558 roxlet 2 4281501 That has more to do with the anchovies than the hot pepper. See also aglio e olio and pepe e cacio - both classic preparations where pecorino is often added to peperoncino. Mon Dec 29 17:56:57 -0800 2008 4281158 13819 Karl S 3 4285135 I believe that those pastas call for black pepper, which seems, somehow, to be in a different category than red pepper flakes. Wed Dec 31 06:13:38 -0800 2008 4281501 34558 roxlet 1 4284979 Pasta with clams is a great favourite of mine. Once in a snooty Italian place in London I was treated to a telling-off from the surly old waiter when I asked for parmesan on it. I think it depends a lot on the context. If you're in the mood for warming, comfort food, shovel the cheese on. If you're in a more refined frame of mind and you want to truly taste the fresh, subtle flavour of the seafood, leave it off. One of my other favourites is spiedini di pesce - grilled kebabs of assorted fish, lightly flavoured with garlic, lemon and parsley - and I wouldn't dream of putting cheese on them, as it would kill the taste. Wed Dec 31 02:40:09 -0800 2008 2811479 243254 paddydubai