421649 Mon Jul 16 12:59:37 -0700 2007 39 41 Cookware 0 2754606 Thank you for all the thoughtful advice in response to my post asking for your one kitchen design tip. http://www.chowhound.com/topics/419695 Although we’re still at the beginning of the process, we’ve learned enough that I want to share the decisions we’ve made so far as well as the new questions that have arisen. A running theme in responses to my earlier post was that these decisions are ultimately personal, so here’s the context for our project: My partner and I – no kids or pets – are rebuilding our house after gutting it pretty much down to the shell. The kitchen, dining, and living areas will be open in one large rectangular space, which has a 25-foot-high ceiling. The kitchen will be along part of a long wall, with a substantial island. The dining table will be in the center of the room, on the other side of the island. We entertain often. By most people’s standards I am a serious home cook, but probably not by the standards of the typical poster on the Cookware or Home Cooking board. I rarely bake, and I primarily make food of Chinese, Japanese, and southeast Asian origin, so I use the stovetop more than I use the oven. We tend to host large family gatherings, so dinner for 24 happens several times a year. We have lots of room to play with, though the high ceiling makes lighting and ventilation more complicated. Since we’re building the whole house, the kitchen budget isn’t exactly fixed, but to give you a sense, we’d pay top-dollar for an appliance if it made a marked performance difference, but generally we expect to stay one or two price steps below the Viking/Wolf/Dacor/Bluestar level. We hope to live in this house for many years, so we are not very focused on re-sale. Here’s what we’ve tentatively decided so far, thanks in no small part to your advice: 1. Drawers: sturdy drawers for cookware that pull out fully, with a single, easy-to-grasp bar. No hunting in the back of cabinets. And no expensive built-in drawer accessories: I cook differently than I did five years ago, and probably will five years hence, so no need for special-purpose hardware in drawers. One exception: one tall, narrow cabinet for baking sheets. 2. Sinks: two. One big sink for washing dishes, and a smaller sink near the cooking area for prep work, draining pasta, etc. 3. Dishwashers: two. 4. Layout: the cooking area (cooktop, oven, prep sink, prep counters, countertop appliances) should be against the long wall, and the cleaning area (main sink, dishwashers, dish storage) should be in the island. I was hoping to have the cooking area be in the island so I could face guests in the dining area, but the very high ceilings make lighting and ventilation over the island tricky. Comments on the importance of lighting and ventilation have tipped the decision in favor of the cooking area against the wall, with a big hood and good lighting off the wall, and the cleaning area as the island. 5. Countertop: leaning toward Silestone. I prefer something that shows dirt and liquid spills clearly because I hate inadvertently putting, say, a bag of flour down on a hard-to-see puddle. And, I prefer no maintenance. My partner, who is more in touch aesthetically than I am, is dealing with cabinet styles. My next big question is the cooking appliances. Although I don’t bake much, we do entertain big groups, so I think two ovens would be a help. At first I was looking at 48” and 60” ranges, which seem to be sold only by high-end brands. So then I was thinking about a high-end 36” range, and, to get a second oven, a cheaper wall-mounted one at similar height, since I’ll only use it occasionally. But wall-mounted ovens are more expensive than they seem because they still require cabinetry and a countertop over it. So then I thought: why not buy two 30” ranges and put them next to each other? Consumer Reports loves the Bosch dual-fuel, which I think looks excellent. That would be two ovens and eight burners (perhaps I could switch out two for a griddle) for around $4000 total, versus well over $10,000 for a 60” unit. Would love any further advice. And, I’m planning on reporting back every couple of weeks on further decisions and progress. Mon Jul 16 12:59:37 -0700 2007 10032 david kaplan 1 2754820 You have put a lot of thought into things already -- more than almost any speculative builders do and probably more than most homeowners, bravo. I think you absolutely making the right call on not having the range in the island. With your extremely high ceiling the main stove will be far better off on the outside wall. As to your question about putting in two ranges I don't think is that odd at all. I would not, however, attempt to install two identical ranges side-by-side. Too much opportuntuy for the ranges to get each other dirty and the oven to interact with each other in bad ways. If you have the room for 60" of range in your kitchen what I would suggest is the get the regular dual-fuel range of your choice installed along the outside wall and then position the island so that the other range can be installed facing it, but offset by 30" to the left or right. For the second range get an all electric "slide-in" style with either a smooth-top or induction cooking surface. As you've already decided to have the clean-up area in the island, you could have a cutting board fitted so that you'd have the electric range as a work surface. The slide-in style is designed to sit flush with the countertop with nothing standing up. Though a bit more money than a regular range, it is may even be cheaper than a high end wall oven, still well with you'r total $4k range budget so far. You'd also save as you won't need cabinet trim or countertop. The electric burners would still be there for parties when you might need a place to keep things warm or what have you, but you would not need a hood, as your main range would have one and you'd do all the messy cooking there. (In actual use you may find that simply boiling water can be faster on a electric range, and it is perfectly fine for those kinds of things). I just happened to see what might be a perfect companion to the Bosch range while at Sears: http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_SessionID=@@@@1326852629.1184618950@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccjeaddlhilemmfcefecemldffidfmm.0&vertical=SEARS&sid=I0083100840003900085&pid=02246703000 Mon Jul 16 13:50:33 -0700 2007 2754606 87093 renov8r 2 2756083 Thank you again for the advice. One clarification: what do you mean that adjacent ovens could "interact with each other in bad ways?" I redid some plans just now, and since we have 18' of wall space and only 12' of island space, there's more room for both ranges on the wall. Furthermore, if I have things cooking on both rangetops, I'd be spinning around a lot if one is along the wall and the other is in the island. Mon Jul 16 21:19:59 -0700 2007 2754820 10032 david kaplan 3 2757637 The single biggest problem I foresee with having two ranges right next to each other is the physical problems that will be created by the gap between 'em -- spill will get down there and short of dragging the stove(s) out will be impossible to clean up. That will lead to the ranges' getting out of level, which lead to 'em wobbling. Which will lead to more headaches. The second problem is what the overtemp sensors that are generally only triggered on the "self clean" cycle -- one would could trip both its sensor and the one adjacent to it leaving you with a "unioven" as far as cleaning. If you think you need 6 or 8 or however many active full time burners you need to get that size stove. If, however you'd like an occasional extra oven, a decent warming drawer, and even more infrequent set of burners (that when no used will blend into the counter top of the island) then you can pursue what I'm suggesting...* Tue Jul 17 10:47:28 -0700 2007 2756083 87093 renov8r 4 2765528 Your suggestion of a warming oven is a very good one for someone who doesn't bake much as DK says he doesn't. Really useful for big parties like he plans to give several times a year as well. Maybe instead of an additional cooktop of some kind, isn't there a specialty wok unit? Seems I've seen one of these in a great Asian-style kitchen. Very high output burner designed to accomodate various sized woks. It could possibly be mounted under an extra-long vent hood next to the range. Heck, a vent of it's own might be worth it! It could be a real show-stopper for DK's kitchen especially since he's getting more and more into Asian cooking. Thu Jul 19 13:39:43 -0700 2007 2757637 32444 MakingSense 1 2755638 A walk-in pantry is something to consider. I've lived in two houses where I have had them and loved them. Floor to ceiling shelves for dry goods and entertaining supplies, china, crystal, linens and such. Chafing dishes, serving platters, large bowls, ice buckets, all the things that can't be stored in standard kitchen cabinets. Liqueurs and spices used infrequently so they were kept away from kitchen heat. Specialty pots not needed day-in, day-out. Pet food. The walk-in pantry made most of the wall cabs unnecessary so I'd consider giving up the sq. footage to add one in the next kitchen I design. I'd love to add a combo washer/dryer for kitchen linens in the pantry. Mon Jul 16 18:30:08 -0700 2007 2754606 32444 MakingSense 2 2763357 The walk-in pantry is a definite. We're thinking of a 5'x5' pantry. I'm tempted not to have built-in shelving but rather rely on those movable "metro shelves" since I'm finding it hard to anticipate how much and what kind of shelves we'll need. Wed Jul 18 22:16:08 -0700 2007 2755638 10032 david kaplan 3 2764209 Metro shelving only comes so high. We had adjustable and permanent shelving all the way to the ceiling and a flat ladder that we stored in the pantry to reach things on high shelves like chafing dishes and other entertaining supplies, seasonal items and things that were used infrequently. I also don't like to stack good china too high so we had shelves that we could adjust to only a foot or so apart. More flexible since I was always changing the arrangement. You could plan for storage above your Metro shelving. Don't waste that high space. Thu Jul 19 08:42:34 -0700 2007 2763357 32444 MakingSense 1 2757723 DK like you described, jfood house number 2 had a ~4*14 foot island with the sink, DW and storage in it. when standing at the sink with your back to the long wall as you described, you look over the island to the table and chairs. What the jfoods found extremely useful was another great idea from mrs jfood. From left to right with your back to the long wall would be prep/sink/prep in the center island. behind these three areas, mrs jfood created a second tier by increasing the height of the island about 6-8" and created a high eating area with bar stools facing the sink and long wall. While prepping you can have a nice conversation with people who can sit with a glass of wine or some apps and there is a clear line a delineation between the guest space and the work space. this area was also great for a bowl of cereal in the morning. The last benefit to the two tiered island was that it allowed for a 6-8" backsplash behind the sink. this was useful for splats and most important when you were sitting at the table, it was almost impossible to see the top of the sink and therefore no dirty pots pans could be seen while eating. Tue Jul 17 11:05:36 -0700 2007 2754606 11290 jfood 2 2763360 Yup, our island will have exactly the kind of raised area you describe. I'm not sure we'd use barstools, but it will be perfect for when people are standing with a glass of wine and some appetizers. Wed Jul 18 22:17:25 -0700 2007 2757723 10032 david kaplan 3 2763775 DK since this is in your plans, think about cantilevering the stone as well and then use some beautiful corbels underneath for support. this will allow flexibility in the future if you do decide to buy some high chairs (not stool but chairs with backs) and then people can either sit on the chair or stand or both. There are currently a wide choice of high chairs since for some reason there is a current kitchen-fashion trend for high seated dining. Thu Jul 19 06:30:14 -0700 2007 2763360 11290 jfood 1 2758493 The counter at our first home was white so you could see everything, which was not a great thing, even in a small kitchen. You may want to have some bit of 'hide' especially if it's a large area.Our current counters are Hanstone (just my opinion but their palette is richer and offers greater variation than Silestone.) The pebbly, concrete ('Victorian Sand') pattern is fine enough to provide a uniform look but there are variations of a scale to make the surface interesting but not distractingly so. (Something I wouldn't have liked about granite is the graining that my eyes would focus right in on.) I never see dirt or grit. This even with the high polish finish. As another option you may want to consider a honed finish. I saw this being done in the shop when I went to visit my counter while is was being cut. It just costs more money... Tue Jul 17 13:51:46 -0700 2007 2754606 13417 neighborguy 1 2762997 David Two thoughts, one extremely important for you IMO and one to think about. The extremely important one is, if you do lots of wok cooking, no question BUY A BLUESTAR. In addition to just being very good appliances, which place performance over supercool looks, their 22k burners are FANTASTIC FOR WOK COOKING. I pledged to get serious with my Chinese when we moved into our new house, and I can't begin to tell you how pleased I am with this thing for a wok. I use 14" Northern style mostly, but no matter--they work great. Hot as hell and very fast. You'll get hey like you never knew. Bluestar is for all practical purposes a Garland professional range in residential clothing. If you haven't already lurked around the Appliance forum on the Garden Web you should go there, for hundreds of posts about Bluestar and every other conceivable kitchen design topic. The one to think about is, particularly if you do lots of entertaining, get two dishwashers. We did and I'd never turn back. Anyway the DW doesn't cost much more than the cabinet that would otherwise occupy the space (I personally think you can get a perfectly good DW for $500 or so--we have mid-scale Whirlpools). BTW we have maybe 18' ceilings over the kitchen area, and our (in our case) cooktop in the island with a Vent-a-hood over it and it all works fine. So don't be afraid to go that route if you want to. Wed Jul 18 19:02:19 -0700 2007 2754606 10668 johnb 2 2763384 Your advice is invaluable, though it caused me a little crisis because it made me re-think my general appliance strategy. As I mentioned above, I had been leaning toward two ranges, one electric so the surface could be usable as countertop except for the few times I'd be using it for cooking. I was thinking primarily about wanting two ovens for entertaining, and having dual ranges seemed like a cost-effective solution relative to a range plus a wall oven. However, Garden Web (which I hadn't heard of until you mentioned it) has lots of comments about Bosch ranges, and the repair/maintenance record sounds poor. Consumer Reports, in praising the Bosch dual-fuel range, mentions that they did not get enough reports to judge the repair/maintenance record. Negative reports on Garden Web have ruled it out for me. Furthermore, I've been very focused on having enough capacity for the semi-annual big big dinner, and I haven't thought enough about performance I would appreciate every day. Given that I don't really bake, and that my cooking becomes more and more Asian over the years, I would take full advantage of the powerful burners. So, I'm now leaning toward the 36" Bluestar with the 22k burners, which at $5500 is approximately equal to the cost of the two Bosch ranges I was prepared to buy. Add a few hundred for a countertop microwave-convection oven, and then I have two ovens, great performance, and fewer layout challenges (the two ranges were tricky to position ideally given some other constraints), so it seems to beat my earlier plan. I still have a twinge of concern about not having two full-size ovens. And maybe I should drop down to the 30" Bluestar and have only 4 burners. I wish I could envision exactly in what scenarios I would want 2 ovens or more than 4 burners. I've never had more than one oven and four burners in all my previous kitchens, and I've never actually found that to be a constraint. Two dishwashers are definitely in the plan. No way could we have a vent-a-hood over the island. The large, high-ceilinged room that will contain the kitchen, dining, and living areas used to be a historically significant theater, and a vent hanging down would look profane. My partner is usually the one who takes the aesthetic hard-line on things, but even I agree on this one. Still concerned that I'm overlooking some considerations. I'd love further advice. Wed Jul 18 22:38:24 -0700 2007 2762997 10032 david kaplan 3 2763743 For the oven issue, and especially since I like electric convection ovens not gas, I went with the Bluestar cooktop (36"--about $2300 IIRC) and a double electric wall oven. Works for me. The oven is a Jenn-Aire and it's fine--I had the same one in my previous house which I installed during a remodel prior to selling to see how it would work out--I chose it because it was the cheapest I could find that had fully hidden burners and true convection both up and down, both of which I wanted. You may want to think about doing the same---depends on your preference for oven fuel and whether you have the space. I'm not sure the cabinet cost is really a big deal, since you may/will have cabinets anyway in the same space. If you want more cooking capability you can get a 48" or even 60" Bluestar in either the range or the cooktop. Just be sure you order one with the "Nova" burners, ie the 22k which is max firepower for your wok. OOTH, the 18 and even 15k burners do a good job too. These days Prizer-Painter seems to be mounting the two 22k burners in the front, so fitting a wok on shouldn't be a problem, but if you plan to use the smaller burners in the back for a wok you probably had best go with the island trim (my older unit has one 22 in the front and one in the back). However, the BS puts out so much heat that, if you have the island trim next to a wall, you will need to keep the back of the unit as far from the wall as possible, and should do the backsplash area with ceramic or metal or some similar fireproof material. As to a hood over the island, I of course don't know your tastes or the space, but you can get some pretty cool-looking hoods/ducts these days which maybe might fit in. You can also have your cabinet maker do a custom chase in wood, in which case it could be designed to fit in with what's there. Just a thought. It's certainly true tho that such an installation would be the focal point of the kitchen, so there is some risk and it needs to be handled carefully. If you are anywhere around Western North Carolina stop by I'll show you our set-up. Thu Jul 19 06:20:12 -0700 2007 2763384 10668 johnb 3 2763792 to each his own on the appliance choice but whirlpool would not make the jfood short list. with this type of high end kitchen you should very much consider a fully integrated DW that would allow for a full panel ont he front. Jfood twinges everytime he sees a beautiful kitchen and then sees the controls for the DW. Also need to consider the noise level. What may clean dishes well may also sound like a jet engine when standing near it. The two Jfood recos are Bosch and Miele. Both come with unseen control panels and allow for a full cabinet face. Jfood has the Miele and it is SO quiet he has to put his ear up next to it sometimes to see if it is on. Also loads nicely and cleans well with a choice of two water heat modes. Thu Jul 19 06:34:34 -0700 2007 2763384 11290 jfood 4 2765131 Well you are of course entitled to your opinion. But johnb thinks spending more than $500 for a DW is throwing money away. My WP's have a nice SS front and the fact that some visitor can look at them and realize they are dishwashers (and "twinge") doesn't bother me in the slightest--in fact, I'd have to wonder why I even let such a person in my kitchen in the first place, my kitchen being a place to work not a place to gawk at. And PS they are quiet enough for me, and have various heat modes and all that jazz. And FWIW even Consumers Report says all dishwashers pretty much clean well these days. But that's just me. BTW in response to another point you made above, about the trend to high-fashion raised counters for eating, I think those high counters may be a bit like jacuzzi's--seems like a good idea but doesn't work in practice so never gets used. The problem with high counters and stools is that you can't put your feet on the floor, only on a bar welded to the stool legs. That becomes very uncomfortable very quickly, certainly withing the time of even a short meal. We did the opposite--our eating bar is lower than the counter, actually normal table height, so we can use our normal chairs and stools and be comfortable. Again, I suppose an example of function vs. trendy where function won, a very novel outcome in current kitchen design. Thu Jul 19 12:14:20 -0700 2007 2763792 10668 johnb 5 2765336 The counter height thing goes in cycles. I remember when it was THE thing to have a lowered counter height, some folks were even saying it was a trend to help with "multi-generational & barrier free" design. {As you can imagine it is not very feasible for someone in a wheelchair to use a bar height eating area...}. But the reality is that an very very very small percentage of even elderly folks ever use wheelchairs. SO -- if you like raised counters then think about getting 'em, but if you like lowered, get those. And personally I use my whirlpool tub pretty frequently, especially after a long day on job sites AND in the kitchen! Thu Jul 19 13:00:22 -0700 2007 2765131 87093 renov8r 6 2766266 R jfood meant that there is a trend in bar height tables, not counters. jfood has no idea why this trend is in place but just see them in numerous high end stores. Many restos also seem to have bar stool next to higher tables. sorry for the confusion Thu Jul 19 17:18:40 -0700 2007 2765336 11290 jfood 6 2766435 Bar stools are difficult for the elderly to get onto and off of and not very comfortable for them. My parents hated mine. I broke my ankle this winter and realized why when I was trying to recover. I'm getting ready to redo my kitchen and planning to replace my huge island with a much smaller work island and a big farm table for hanging out and eating. I'll still be able to use it for big kitchen projects and talk easily to guests but they'll be much more comfortable. jfood, some bars are designed purposely with slightly uncomfortable stools - not enough that you notice - but enough to make you fidget. Increases the speed of eating and drinking and people order more leading to increased sales. High tables turn quicker. Just like orange seats and quick tempo music. Subtle manipulation... Thu Jul 19 18:30:37 -0700 2007 2765336 32444 MakingSense 7 2766447 The bar stools jfood refers to are not the eating area but the extra eating space, more for nibbles and shmoozing. behind the bar stools was a full table and chairs at normal height. jfood would never recommend bar stool height as the only eating area. sorry for the confusion. Thu Jul 19 18:36:04 -0700 2007 2766435 11290 jfood 5 2766290 no biggie johnb. as you say to each his own. After helping in the design of numerous kitchen, jfood would have recommended to you not to find the cheapest oven as you described above and a SS DW that juts out and mate it with a high end range the kitchen. not the preferabele combo from a design perspective and will scream of OK he spent all the money on the stove and had to cut back on the oven/dw. in jfood's opinion he would recommend to people to spend the extra $700 each on the DW and oven and have all the appliances in sync wrt quality. in the grand scheme of things it's only $1400. But that's just jfood. wrt to the other points, jfood takes a jucuzzi indoors about 3-5 times a month in the winter and loves it. And to the bar stool comment, jfood had extremely comfortable high back chairs at the bar height part of the kitchen and people would sit for hours and shmooze, nibble and drink. Once again if you buy quality you can get comfort. so the good news for the OP is that he has two very different opinions to work with from the two of us. Thu Jul 19 17:29:19 -0700 2007 2765131 11290 jfood 6 2766478 Sorry you apparently didn't read my post closely. I never said I bought cheap ovens. I bought the cheapest that had the features I wanted, which were performance features. They weren't cheap, but neither were they an extra $2000 with no performance value added. There's nothing wrong with the fit of my dishwashers. My custom cabinets swallow them up just fine. And to pay more just to hide the buttons to me is plain foolish, the kind of thing that I associate with someone who is more interested in impressing know-nothings than in getting good performance, the same type of person who lays out big bucks for, say, Viking which is good looking but doesn't perform at a level that matches its price. In johnb's opinion he recommends that folks spend their money on good performance and forget about impressing those who wouldn't know how to cook their way out of a paper bag. But that's just johnb. I'm happy for you that you get some use out of your jacuzzi, but rest assured you are in the vast minority. As to comfortable stools, if you can't put your feet flat on the floor you're not going to be comfortable. Period. I don't care how much they cost or how "comfortable" they otherwise are. Maybe sometimes guests just don't want to make one feel bad but saying something, after you've spent all that loot on high end stuff, so they just don't let on that they really would rather be in a normal chair. So my advice to David is simple. Assuming what you care about is cooking, go for the best performance. If you also are loaded and can also get style as a secondary consideration, fine, but performance comes first and don't compromise it for style. And there is no better example of that than Bluestar vs. Viking. And in particular don't follow the crowd into stuff that's only caught on among the fashionistas and designers because its manufacturers (Viking, Subzero, and Dacor come to mind) pay lots of bucks to place their goods in articles in the various magazines and get them "objectively" rated and talked up. That's horse puckey. Don't be sucked in, as so many others have been. Thu Jul 19 18:53:30 -0700 2007 2766290 10668 johnb 7 2767279 Oh the beauty of chowhound is the differing opinions and the passion brought forth. And so we agree to disagree on the appliance choice and how to spend money on the various aspects of re-design. But some clarifying points: - jfood agrees that many jacuzzis go unused and that's unfortunate because they are such a wonderful way to relax. - Jfood disagrees that the Viking does not perform. Thanks for the head's up on the home garden website. looked through it last night, very interesting inputs. Interesting that there are only 2 viking cooktop entries and they liked it. Now with jfood's reco that makes 3. - hiding the buttons was important to the aesthetics of the kitchen and $700 was no big deal for that feature. as you stated, you looked for the features you want, likewise jfood did as well. and the performance of the Miele is outstanding. - people who can afford the high end stuff being characterized as "no nothings" is not fair. And no, impressing people is not as prevalent in affluent areas as people who do not live here believe. - bar height chairs. if you find them uncomfortable that's also a personal choice. jfood finds bar height chairs with the leg rest at the proper height extremely comfortable. likewise guests have always had the choice of the bar height or the regular height and in jfood's experience the bar heighters are always taken first and it's funny to watch the game of musical chairs when someone moves to a different discussion group during get-togethers how the bar stools are sought after. - jfood can definitely cook his way out of a paper bag and hopefully there is a higher standard than paper bag. in fact NY chef's have pal'd around with jfood in his kitchen and they also found the performance of the Viking cooktop perfect. So we can add some NY chef's to the reco on the Viking cooktop. It's definitely not what they have in their resto kitchen's yet we managed to turn out some outstanding dishes. It's a testament to cooking ability to have the skill to turn out great food without the benefit of their normal highest end stoves. So we agree on performance, it's very important. we disagree on aesthetics being important and that's fine as well. At the end of the day, the OP needs to work within a budget, and decide at what point in the Perk chart he goes left versus right and at what point he stops. The best part of the process is when he is done he can deliver great food to people from the appliances he chose, from the kitchen he designed to people sitting comfortable in the chairs of their choice and maybe head out back to enjoy a whirlpool with friends over single malt scotch or Mountain Dew (diet of course). Fri Jul 20 06:48:09 -0700 2007 2766478 11290 jfood 8 2768087 Well, this has been an interesting exchange of viewpoints and I agree with most of your recent post. But all things must come to an end, and we're probably boring others who are following this thread including the OP, so I'll now try to limit myself to a few corrections. I never said the Viking doesn't perform, I just indicated it doesn't perform up to the level of its price. I assume that is due to the cost of finishes, advertising, product placement costs, etc., which I choose not to spend my money on, especially when there are better alternatives at the same price point, but that's once again that's just me and my priorities. I don't know why you only found two mentions (both positive???) of Viking on the Garden Web Appliance board--I did a search of the term Viking just now, and got 15 pages of topic titles alone for threads that include Viking. I've been reading that board for years, and can assure you that, while opinions certainly vary, there is a good deal there which would make one question the quality/desirability of the Viking product. (Perhaps your NY chef pals just didn't want to say what they really thought about your Viking??) I wasn't suggesting you are among the no (sic) nothings, just the majority of friends and families who are brought in to ohh and ahh over other peoples' trophy kitchens. I'm glad for you that you are affluent and live in an affluent area; I understand, in that I used to live in Potomac, Md., which as you may know is affluent central, but got over it--the attitudes I found in places like that are, to my mind, toxic, and contrary to your observation, I found the principle thing those people do is strive to impress each other, far beyond what is found among other socio-economic groups, to the point in some cases of having two kitchens, one (the trophy kitchen) for looks and one, also trophy-like, to actually cook in--of course only caterers ever cook in that second kitchen, never the owners who are too busy making money and attending functions and impressing each other with their power and wealth. I also didn't say you couldn't cook your way out of a paper bag--you post here so you surely have some such skills. I was referring again to those know-nothings whose job it is to be impressed by your and other's trophy kitchens. But as you say, we can agree and we can disagree. That's what makes the world go around. Fri Jul 20 10:28:36 -0700 2007 2767279 10668 johnb 9 2768735 likewise johnb. jfood is sure we will meet and agree/disagree again in the future. Ciao baby Fri Jul 20 13:26:41 -0700 2007 2768087 11290 jfood 1 2764266 This is just a quick response to one thing that you have mentioned. Be absolutely certain that you want to keep your back turned to your family/guests whenever you are cooking. Did that in one custom kitchen...HATED it! Investigate...there are wonderful five and six burner cooktops (with grill and griddle options) that can be placed in an island with a downdraft that pops up at the push of a button. Sorry, not so quick, I guess. There is a new trivection oven...standard, convection and microwave oven available also...looks wonderful mounted above a warming drawer, which if you are cooking for 24 a few times a year is a blessing in itself. (It is just my husband and me and I use the drawer all of the time, for so many things that you wouldn't even think of!) Also,(sorry I am going on and on) check with your local lighting supplier. At our home in FL we encountered insuffiecient lighting in the kitchen/family room area; when we renovated (this is a new home with a great floorplan but very vanilla) I found a few options to utilize the existing lighting with a new lighting system and found that I had several choices available. Just couldn't resist chiming in. Lived in 6 different states in the last 12 years...lots of new homes, new construction and replanning. LOVE IT! Hope that you and your partner enjoy your new surroundings. Thu Jul 19 08:58:29 -0700 2007 2754606 112506 beccaboo 2 2764486 Jfood's current kitchen has the 6-burner viking cooktop with downdraft in the island. It has some great features and some limitations. Same with the downdraft itself. Still ranks a "love it" on the jfood scale and absolutely think it was the right choice, but a few words to the wise would have been appreciated. Thu Jul 19 09:54:12 -0700 2007 2764266 11290 jfood 2 2765074 The lighting is going to be quite a big deal in a place with 25' ceilings. If you put cans all the waaaaaay up there it is going to be a royal pain to change bulbs, especially if you want fixtures/bulbs that have a somewhat narrow beam. The various low voltage system and "floating wires" can work better in such a space, but you may need to fabricate some special standoffs so that the whole space does not look like a mad scientist's lair. A combination of over cabinet uplighting and undercabinet task lighting may be the way to go, but even then you can get some odd shadows with the height you are dealing with -- this may the kind of situation where you become real good friends with a designer that is master of the various computer lighting simulations, I'd hate to redo lights after the fact in a space as big as yours. Thu Jul 19 12:00:02 -0700 2007 2764266 87093 renov8r 2 2765192 I would strongly caution david against a downdraft vent. They are semi-OK for light cooking, but for anything serious, and wok cooking is in the serious category, they just aren't up to the job. Smoke and steam go up out of the pan and a downdraft simply isn't going to capture more than a small fraction of it. You need an overhead with good power (600 cfm minimum, 1200 better), a rise of no more than 36" or so, and an overhang of at least 3-4" all around to do the job. Thu Jul 19 12:25:16 -0700 2007 2764266 10668 johnb 3 2766295 jfood agrees with johnb on this point if you have an option. he has a viking downdraft currently and gives it a grade of B, but we had severe limitations above. the height od your ceiling will greatly limit updrafts. Thu Jul 19 17:31:35 -0700 2007 2765192 11290 jfood 1 2765195 We have 2 electric wall ovens - Dacor - and while I miss the width of my old gas range oven, it is wonderful to have these when entertaining. I don't have to cook on a stove with heat rising from the oven and the oven is at eye level so you aren't getting a face full of hot oven when you are basting or usung an instant read thermometer. I also enjoy the separate cooking areas - helpful when you are not the only one cooking. We didn't design this kitchen - it was remodeled by the former owners. We miss have gas tremendously for stove top cooking but our baking skills have improved with these ovens. The top one is also convection. Thu Jul 19 12:26:16 -0700 2007 2754606 66281 ginnyhw 1 2766481 Lots of interesting points of view... First, with regard to the second oven. You indicated that you might be going with a convection/microwave combo. Good call. We have a GE Advantium that cooks with halogen light, regular convection, and/or microwave power. Most of the time it's just the microwave, but it can be pressed into service as a second oven at a moment's notice. Second, wok cooking. If you're cooking for two, the Bluestar may work fine. But my experience is that 22k btu isn't enough fire for a larger recipes. A dedicated 40k btu burner will do the job, but gets a little demading on the ventilation system. I finally moved my wok outside and bought a Camp Chef stove with a 90k btu burner. Overkill, yes, but now I can stir-fry chicken for a crowd one night and smelt copper the next. And the days of waiting for pasta water to boil are a distant memory... Finally, dishwashers. I agree that the Bosch is the way to go. Or Thermador--which is a rebranded Bosch. Their more basic models are reasonably priced ($500 range), so you don't necessarily have to blow your budget there. Good luck, and keep posting. There are those of us who've replaced appliances but are looking forward to a major kitchen remodel, and would love to learn from others' experiences. Thu Jul 19 18:55:06 -0700 2007 2754606 58743 alanbarnes 2 2766563 Wow. I tip my hat to you. That is serious wok cooking. That said, I have cooked multi-course Chinese meals for 8 successfully on my two 22k burners, but I admit it requires some juggling. Still, running outside with all those little bowls of ingredients must be awkward. Thu Jul 19 19:41:17 -0700 2007 2766481 10668 johnb 3 2766672 Three words: mise en place. My main complaint wokking indoors was that the thermal inertia of even a moderate amount of food would exceed the burner's ability to bring things back up to temp. The difference between us might be what constitutes a "moderate amount." If you're cooking numerous courses, the quantities of each dish are smaller. For a quick, simple dinner with family and friends, I like to do one big stir fry with steamed rice. There were just too many times when I'd dump in a pile of meat or veggies and the wok's hiss would die down to an anemic sizzle or worse. Preheating ingredients helped, but the lazy man's solution is to bring on the fire power. The big burner presents the same problem as the small one: heat. But now the problem is control, not quantity; it's like getting water from a fire hose. Yeah, you want the wok smoking before you start, but when the bottom is glowing cherry red the oil can ignite pretty explosively. On the other hand, being able to really crank the heat keeps the produce from getting soggy even if you put in a lot at once. Thu Jul 19 20:34:53 -0700 2007 2766563 58743 alanbarnes 2 2766666 I was actually thinking of a microwave/convection combo that is just a countertop style, not a wall-oven or over-the-counter like the GE Advantium. Maybe the biggest Sharp countertop model I can find? You do some very serious wok cooking, indeed. If the 22k doesn't let me do a whole dinner in the wok for 8, well, maybe I'll put some steamed, simmered, or room-temperature items on the menu. I'm still wrestling with the sticker shock from the Bluestar model with the 22k burner. But perhaps someday ... . Thu Jul 19 20:30:42 -0700 2007 2766481 10032 david kaplan 3 2767991 I don't know from the Sharp, but the only "advantage" the Advantium has is the halogen "speed cook" function--one I thought was cool when we bought the oven, but almost never use. The cost of indoor wok cooking was the reason I moved my wok outside. If your climate isn't suitable, then that's not really an option. But I manage to get the heat I want and save thousands of dollars by using a moderately-priced gas cooktop, a standard ventilation system, and a very inexpensive outdoor stove. Fri Jul 20 10:09:59 -0700 2007 2766666 58743 alanbarnes 4 2769507 Alan I recall that when halogen ovens were first introduced, and at that time were called "flashbake" ovens, the thing they were reputed to do especially well was pizza. Supposedly they could do a fantastic pizza and in only maybe 1/3 the time. Have you ever used yours to bake pizza, and if so what was the result? Fri Jul 20 18:23:34 -0700 2007 2767991 10668 johnb 5 2769976 I've tried it for pizza and didn't think it did that well. IMHO, pizza (like stir fry) is all about thermal mass. An environment of very heavy, very hot stuff (with a porous surface underneath) is the only way to achieve a decent crust. Halogen light just doesn't fit the bill. Why do I get the feeling that I'm sounding like a BTU junkie? Fri Jul 20 23:38:23 -0700 2007 2769507 58743 alanbarnes 1 2770977 My folks bought a house once that had two ranges next to each other (in that case it was the old 20" wide apt size), and it was great. They were right next to each other, and I think if I were to design a kitchen with this feature I would definately keep them together. You just want the convenience of using them as one single range. The issue of food dropping between them is no different than food dropping in between a standard range and counter/cabinet. I know this is at odds with what a lot of the others think, but I am speaking from having lived with this arrangement for about 8 years. I can't wait for you folks to post photos of the place when it is done! Sat Jul 21 13:51:30 -0700 2007 2754606 57890 KaimukiMan