41869 Thu Dec 08 19:09:43 -0800 2005 73 1 San Francisco Bay Area 0 202467 I just moved to SF from Boston and want to go out for pizza (my favorite food)tomorrow night. I did a "ctrl F" for pizza and nothing came up! Is this a bad sign? Surely there must be some great pizza craftspeople in this city. I'm looking for thin crispy crust, preferably baked in a wood fired oven, with high quality toppings. I'm downtown on Geary Street but I'll travel for the real pizza! Thu Dec 08 19:09:43 -0800 2005 0 fine wino 1 202471 I just did a "ctrl f" and found at least 5 postings with responses to them. Try again? There is much debate over what pizza is the "best," (or even what is considered "good" especially taking into account the varied tastes of all the chowhounds here) but I think that you should try A16, Pizzeria Delfina, Gaspares,and Osteria del Forno. Those are ones (excepting Delfina, which I've never been to but have heard consisently good things about) that I have found to always deliver a good solid pizza. Welcome to the Bay Area! Thu Dec 08 19:20:25 -0800 2005 202467 0 Andy Copeland 2 202475 And I'd add Pauline's. Thu Dec 08 19:40:19 -0800 2005 202471 0 Frosty Melon 3 202543 Gotta add Marcello's on Castro Street. Fri Dec 09 06:30:30 -0800 2005 202475 0 Moose1111 4 202568 Marcello's crust isn't particularly thin or crispy. OK pizza by the slice if you're in the neighborhood but I would not go out of my way. Fri Dec 09 12:00:12 -0800 2005 202543 0 Robert Lauriston 5 202687 Yeah, I think Marcello's crust is pretty bad. Fri Dec 09 17:33:40 -0800 2005 202568 0 Celeste 1 202479 in SF, i think pazzia (3rd bet. folsom & harrison) has the best margherita (even though they don't have a wood oven) and overall, pizzeria picco in larkspur has the best wood oven pizza. for delivery, amici's is better than most... Thu Dec 08 19:53:01 -0800 2005 202467 0 antonio 1 202481 LuLu's got a wood oven and thin crust. If you want it crispy, it's a good idea to order it that way, since the normal California bake is on the blonde side (regional taste, well known among pizza professionals). Pazzia, same except no wood oven. A16, wood oven, but softer dough, Naples-style. Contact info and more options on my pizza page: Link: http://www.lauriston.com/pizza.html Thu Dec 08 19:59:42 -0800 2005 202467 0 Robert Lauriston 1 202482 i too love a good pizza and after moving here and having absolutley horrible delivery pizza (nothing even as good as pizza hut) i decided to go on a pizza hunt. for a few weeks i sought the best pizza in town. while ive yet to find a good delivery pizza i have found some damn good pizza that doesnt deliver. A16, pazzia, pizzetta 211, pizzeria delfina, pazziola in berkeley, zuni, and osteria del forno are the ones ive hit up so far. they all have very good pizzas. zuni has an exceptional tomato sauce. delfina has great ingredients and awesome house made peperoni. pazzia has great crust. my fav pizza so far is pizzeria delfina however. they just get it all right. all those i listed however are very very close in quality. Thu Dec 08 20:05:48 -0800 2005 202467 0 Lord Griffin 2 202483 tommassos as well is a fun place to get a really good pizza. Thu Dec 08 20:06:22 -0800 2005 202482 0 Lord Griffin 2 202486 Contact info for all those and Tommaso's are on my previously URL'd pizza page. Thu Dec 08 20:12:55 -0800 2005 202482 0 Robert Lauriston 2 202496 "A16, pazzia, pizzetta 211, pizzeria delfina, pazziola in berkeley, zuni, and osteria del forno..." Do any of them sell by the slice? After seeing these names mentioned multiple times on this board I'm tempted to sample if possible... Thu Dec 08 21:08:37 -0800 2005 202482 0 Agent 510 3 202499 Osteria del Forno does. Thu Dec 08 21:25:20 -0800 2005 202496 0 Jeff 1 202489 Our pizza crawl is this Sunday so look for this take next week. Our stops include: chez pannisse pie in the sky/goia (sp?) or picco dopo piazzolo tommasso's pizzeria delfina A16 Thu Dec 08 20:16:23 -0800 2005 202467 0 laurie 2 202513 Pizzaiolo is closed Sundays. It's a shame; they make incredible pizza. Fri Dec 09 00:17:44 -0800 2005 202489 0 Morton the Mousse 3 202514 oops sorry-that was a typo on my part. it is saturday. we did get a rezzie at Chez P but the rest is winging it - thus the limo for the crowded peak dining times. Can't wait to try piazzolo!! the rules seem to be (a) 1 margherita (1) 1 house speciality that they pick (3) plenty of wine (thus not very credible after the first few stops :) Fri Dec 09 00:20:44 -0800 2005 202513 0 laurie 4 202576 Add house cured anchovies (the best!), rocket or an egg (or two) to that margherita. Definitely go for the house specialty that they pick. Fri Dec 09 12:27:46 -0800 2005 202514 0 Morton the Mousse 5 202581 I don't recommend Pizzaiolo's chef's special (whim of the chef at that moment) unless it's the only pizza you're ordering. Twice when we've ordered it what we got was way too similar to the other pizza. Link: http://www.pizzaiolo.us/ Fri Dec 09 12:33:06 -0800 2005 202576 0 Robert Lauriston 6 202588 My experience is the exact opposite: every time I've ordered the chef's special (about five) it's been different and delicious, usually with ingredients not available on other pizzas that day. If they're only ordering a margherita I highly doubt the chef's special will be similar. If they are concerned, they could make an inquiry or request with the server (the servers usually have a sense of what the special is that day). Fri Dec 09 12:57:39 -0800 2005 202581 0 Morton the Mousse 7 202594 It's not a special of the day. It's whatever the chef decides to throw on the pizza at that moment, so each one may be different. We always go late in the evening so the selection of toppings may be more limited. A margherita and a chef's special would be safe, yes. Fri Dec 09 13:11:34 -0800 2005 202588 0 Robert Lauriston 8 202624 There is not a fixed special, but, on any given day most people will get the same special. There may be a couple of variations, but it is not completely random. We have had success getting tips from our server as to what the chef's special will probably be. I always go to Pizzaiolo near opening so that may be part of the reason for my success with the chef's special. Fri Dec 09 14:20:55 -0800 2005 202594 0 Morton the Mousse 2 202516 Chez Pannisse is closed on Sundays as well. Fri Dec 09 00:27:22 -0800 2005 202489 0 oakjoan 2 202564 Is it Sunday or Saturday? Fri Dec 09 11:54:37 -0800 2005 202489 0 JonesWineNo1 2 202572 Timing could be tricky there. Dopo and Pizzaiolo don't open until 5:30. And by then the line at Dopo can be so long that the place fills up and people are still waiting. Fri Dec 09 12:14:47 -0800 2005 202489 0 Robert Lauriston 3 202632 Timing is indeed going to be difficult but it won't bother me much if we have to cut out an East Bay purveyor. Fri Dec 09 14:28:44 -0800 2005 202572 0 JonesWineNo1 1 202491 Aside from your regular hits, there are a few old school (eight years or older) mavericks. I like Nizario's Pizza for their greek (Tomato Sauce, Mozzarella, feta, olives, and tons of garlic) and hawaiian. For slightly different toppings with a really good cornmeal middle thickness crust, I like Za's on Hyde st. between Union and Green. For your standard cheese, I like Village Pizzeria on Clement@Arguello; this place is a no-frills demi-chain that has an excellent standard cheese pizza among other things. Mind you none of these are Joe's or John's in NY or Sally's in New Haven (Peppy's currently sucks), but they are better than your average slice. Thu Dec 08 20:21:16 -0800 2005 202467 0 Z. Williams 2 202494 I like Nizario's Hawaiian too, when I'm in the mood for Hawaiian. Thu Dec 08 20:31:42 -0800 2005 202491 0 Frosty Melon 1 202502 Pane e Vino makes a good very thin crust pizza. On Union Street. Giorgio's on Clement is decent. Nothing to compare with ther better east coast coal/wood fired ovens, Thu Dec 08 23:03:09 -0800 2005 202467 0 Bob C. 1 202538 Went to Pizzetta 211 tonight. We tried a pie w/house made lamb sausage & roast apples. & a pie w/ roasted potatoes, arichokes, red onion & aioli. Both incredible! I've never had pizza as exciting as this at any other place in SF or the rest of the area. Some other pizzaria's have elements of a great finished product. But, no one consistently puts their best foot forward as does Pizzetta 211. Consistent, Creative, Exciting! Every time. Fri Dec 09 03:43:01 -0800 2005 202467 0 lance 2 202539 I could not disagree more. The crust is sub par with an over fermented dough that renders dry and tasteless in their deck oven which is run at too low a temperature. What does this place do to get in the mind of young American line cooks? It is a product which is very similar to Delfina's pizza, but less consistent; however it sinks deep into the psyche of yound easily influenceed line cooks such as those from RNM and Boulevard who should know better. It must be that it smacks of a bohemian atmosphere that tells the average customer to go screw. Pizzeria Picco, Pizzaoilo, and A16 take pizetta 211 to school as far as pizza goes. Pizza is about the dough not the toppings and pizzetta's dough is passable at best when compared to the better pizzerie. Fri Dec 09 04:18:40 -0800 2005 202538 0 massimo 3 202544 I agree with massimo. I find the crust to be subpar and far too crackerlike. Also, I have in there late in their lunch cycle when there were very few people and everyone was done eating (except me), and it still took 40 minutes to get my pizza. Ridiculous considering that a thin-crust, wood-fired pizza takes less than 3 minutes to cook. I guess artisanal means "pokey" here. Fri Dec 09 07:53:07 -0800 2005 202539 0 KathyR 4 202567 Exactly. The service is spacey if not outright rude (saw them yell at a customer and asked her to leave because she requested a pizza without cheese). Finally, a salad (best item there), a pizza, (which will leave you hungry) and beer will set you back $30 and they only take cash because remember that they are doing you a favor to let you eat there. Fri Dec 09 11:58:36 -0800 2005 202544 0 massimo 5 202651 An obvious difference of opinion exists. & that's partly why this board exists. However when you say that a customer was,"yell(ed)", at you infer that voices were raised as well as blood pressure. This I have trouble believing. What is clear is that you prefer a different style from Pizzetta's. Fri Dec 09 15:22:16 -0800 2005 202567 0 lance 6 202731 Pizzetta 211's difficulties in getting along with their nighttime customers is WELL documented in many posts by many people. Happily, they were very gracious to me when I had lunch there. Fri Dec 09 20:46:33 -0800 2005 202651 0 KathyR 7 202784 I have been patronizing Pizzetta 211 for years & have never been the victim of rudeness by the staff. Perhaps someone not getting their way at Pizzetta may have ruffled a few feathers. & forums such as these are the perfect place to sensationalize. I'd like to know if & how anyone was mistreated at Pizzetta? I am truly curious. Because in my dozens of visits I haven't seen anything out of line. Anyone have any RECENT stories to tell about 211? Sat Dec 10 04:00:29 -0800 2005 202731 0 lance 3 202555 I disagree. Take just one example of 211 vs. Delfina. If a piece of 211 pizza sits for 10 minutes, it's still edible. The same cannot be said for Delfina's. And the level of vitriol in your post is out of place here. Fri Dec 09 11:18:47 -0800 2005 202539 0 answerman 4 202562 Good pizza should not be edible after it sits for 10 minutes. The fact that pizetta 211's pizza does not deteriorate much after sitting for 10 minutes is not really a good thing. Pizza is supposed to be eaten seconds after it is cooked--should go from oven to customer in less than a minute. The fact that pizetta seems to give its crust a window of error, is further argument against it and not in favor of it. Fri Dec 09 11:52:05 -0800 2005 202555 0 massimo 3 202648 of the 3 places you listed Picco is the only one that come close with the crust. the others are quite unsatisfactory. as for the fascination had by SF line cooks, maybe it's because they have an idea how good food should taste? Fri Dec 09 15:14:30 -0800 2005 202539 0 lance 1 202566 A16 Fri Dec 09 11:56:50 -0800 2005 202467 0 JonesWineNo1 2 202569 Though not exactly the crispy crust finewino is requesting, right? Fri Dec 09 12:01:37 -0800 2005 202566 0 nooodles 3 202573 The level of craft at A16 is as high as anyplace in the area, but their Naples-style crust is not as crispy as some people like. Fri Dec 09 12:24:09 -0800 2005 202569 0 Robert Lauriston 4 202609 Agreed, the tender true Neapolitan style is an acquired taste for those used to crispy pizza that can be picked up by hand. Nepolitan pizza requires a fork and knife. A16 stays true to that style and has not compromised for those seeking a crisper crust. I personally like the tender quality better and that is what appeals to me about Neapolitan pizza, otherwise I would seek out NY style pie. Fri Dec 09 13:37:09 -0800 2005 202573 0 Amy G 5 202611 I don't know...this Brooklyn boy ate his A16 pizzas by hand without any problem!!! They were crispy AND chewy..as a pizza dough should be...did I embarass myself by using my digits in lieu of a knife and fork???? I don't really know.... and i guess I don't really care...it is good, so the shortest time... plate to mouth is with my hand!!! Fri Dec 09 13:44:06 -0800 2005 202609 0 ChowFun (derek) 6 202627 By hand works fine imo. Fri Dec 09 14:25:11 -0800 2005 202611 0 JonesWineNo1 6 202628 Nothing wrong with eating it by hand. I usually sit at the chef's bar and can't tell you how many people complain that A16's pizza is floppy and not crispy enough when they pick it up and the tip droops down. They just haven't figured out that you fold the tip of the slice over onto the wider part, and then fold the whole slice somewhat to facilate eating it. My SO who was raised on NY pie eats by hand with no problems too. Fri Dec 09 14:25:24 -0800 2005 202611 0 Amy G 7 202634 Maleducati voi, mangiando come barbari. Fri Dec 09 14:31:22 -0800 2005 202628 0 Robert Lauriston 8 202649 OY!!! What's faux pas in Italian! Fri Dec 09 15:17:13 -0800 2005 202634 0 ChowFun (derek) 8 202656 I am a fork and knife gal, been saying the exact same thing to my husband for years. Just imagine the looks he gets when eating pizza like that while we are visiting Naples or Rome! Fri Dec 09 15:34:07 -0800 2005 202634 0 Amy G 8 202708 well count me among the (happy) maleducati. mangiamo come barbari, pero mangiamo bene. and we barbarians will always invade italy for her food, not her schools of etiquette. i wrote a post specifically on this subject a year ago. Fri Dec 09 19:19:44 -0800 2005 202634 0 ed 1 202584 I lived in SF many moons ago and swore by a family-owned Italian restaurant called Vince's. I heard later that Vince sold it to Gaspare who still runs it pretty much the same old way. Great pizza, especially the Bruce special (garlic and linguica). Do yourself and me a favor and jump on the Geary line, head to Gaspare's, between 19th and 20th in the Richmond, grab a Bruce and a carafe of house red AND REPORT BACK. If it is still the same as it was in 1974; I'm getting on a plane heading west. Fri Dec 09 12:43:43 -0800 2005 202467 0 steveb 1 202689 I think you can see there are some serious differences of opinion as to the best pizza in SF. I for, one, like the following for thin crust: - Little Star (try the sausage thin crust) - Pizzetta 211 - Pauline's (not as thin crust as the others but still very good) - Delfina I have not tried A16 so can't weigh in on that debate. These good too but not as good as above: - Giorgio's - Gaspare's Fri Dec 09 17:41:37 -0800 2005 202467 0 Celeste 1 202739 If your coming from the east, some of the suggestions on this thread might not exactly fit what you are looking for. I haven't eaten in Boston, I don't know what's the deal with pizza over there at the pizza & sub shops, so maybe I'm wrong. As an aside: there really needs to be a typology of approaches in the sf bay pizza landscape. My personal taste and reference point is pizza from new york joints that generally aren't fancy, foofy type of affairs. When I visualize good pizza I think of (in order): diFara's in Brooklyn (towers like michael jordan), Patsy's in Harlem (good solid soulful), Grimaldi's in Brooklyn (slightly embarassed by this one, but technically well executed pies). This is my archetypal vision of a good pizza. From this point of view, the SF pizza environment kinda sucks. Yes, I can greatly enjoy and appreciate other types. But a pie from Pauline's or 211 or L'Osteria or Zachary's isn't usually what first pops into my head when I envision great pizza. With this disclaimer in mind here are the closest approximations to what i like in pizza: - Village Pizzeria on Van Ness (don't go to arguello location, that place sucks fairly hard) - This place is like a solid middle of the road NY pizza. Feel's like this is the closest one. - Gaspare's - Very enjoyable and fairly close to NY style. - Arinell's on Valencia - Okay stuff, it'll get you by, the layout is more authentic, eat at the counter. I think they give paper plates though instead of wax paper, I think. Anyhow, good luck in your search. Fri Dec 09 21:30:52 -0800 2005 202467 0 ken ivorous 2 202743 The closest thing to a New York-style pizza a la Patsy's or Lombardi's is at Nizza la Bella in Albany (though you might have to order it "well done" to get the proper NY-style chard). For old-school pizzeria atmosphere, Tommaso's, but the style of pizza is somewhat different. Arinell's does a Ray's-style slice and might satisfy an expatriate New Yorker's desperate craving for that particular regional snack. I'm not sure anyone else could see a significant difference between it and any other cheap slice. Link: http://www.lauriston.com/pizza.html Fri Dec 09 21:59:59 -0800 2005 202739 0 Robert Lauriston 3 202747 Gotta disagree. There is no whiff of East Coast with Nizza La Bella pizza. Granted I may have had a bad day and got a bad pizza, but even perfectly executed ... no, not close. Fri Dec 09 22:57:13 -0800 2005 202743 0 rworange 4 202749 Properly scorched, the San Gennaro with housemade sausage is a very New York-style pizza. Call ahead to make sure they have the sausage, and if the pizza comes out blonde, send it back. Fri Dec 09 23:03:28 -0800 2005 202747 0 Robert Lauriston 5 202768 I grew up in Connecticut and spent quite a bit of time in NYC. I went to school and worked in Manhattan and travel back occasionally. My personal experiance is that it is nothing like the pizza in that area. However, things may have changed drastically in the past three years since my last visit. And of course, I never ate ate EVERY pizza place in the greater tri-state area, so I never encountered anything like that or scorched crust pizza. That is just my experience. Sat Dec 10 00:58:20 -0800 2005 202749 0 rworange 6 202806 People on the east coast (and in Italy) expect their pizzas baked darker than people on the west coast. If you're used to it, you don't think of it as scorched; you think of the lighter west-coast bake as underdone. That's why Amici's East Coast warns its customers, "If a darker crust is not to your liking, please specify 'light crust' although the result may be undercooked for some tastes." Sat Dec 10 12:45:58 -0800 2005 202768 0 Robert Lauriston 7 202841 Robert, I'm going to say something that's going against board consensus. Despite what one person said in one of the pizza discussions … it’s not about the crust. I had a rather flip rant in response this morning. Then I re-read the posts and thought about it for once. Even though I went to Nizza on an off night, I started to think what it was about that Nizza pie that didn’t in anyway qualify it as a NY pie. So in the interest of research, I had another Nizza pie tonight. No sausage but I got a pie called “New York, New York, New York” … so if that doesn’t qualify for evaluation, nothing does. It was personally ordered by one of the owners and extra baked. So, it was as good as it could get. It was lovely and well executed and I enjoyed it very much. However, once again, despite the name, this is not a New York pizza. It is not the stuff that would satisfy the East Coast pizza craving soul who considers hopping a plane when airfares occasionally drop and getting a pizza fix. Not close. I hate ... hate ... getting into a pizza discussion, however, I AM people on the East Coast. Although after my last few visits to the Eastern Seaboard, I would no longer eat that way ... my fried clam, pizza and Polish/Jewish food days are pretty much over except for occasional splurges ... what I'm trying to say is I much prefer the lighter produce-oriented California cuisine ... but having spent almost the first three decades living on the East Coast ... CT, NY, MA, I still strongly identify myself as an East Coast person. In the neck of the woods where I grew up ... the crust doesn't matter ... you just don't want too much of it hanging outside of the sauce and toppings. The crust is the part that usually gets left uneaten. For heaven's sake, if it were JUST about the crust why bother with the toppings. It's called bread then. And I'm telling you the outer crust gets left even if it's some shrine like Sally's. It's just not that good and not the point of pizza. If I had not eaten the Nizza Pie in the restaurant, I would not have eaten the outer crust. Even though it was a lovely crust, an amazing crust, well browned, yet tender, one of the problems is that there was too much of it. Too much crust to topping ratio. On the East Coast in the non fancy dancy, just great eating pizza parlors ... the places I lose my mind when I go back and wonder why can't they do this in California (see above notes about loving Calif food)... it's about the sauce, cheese, sausage, other toppings and the seasoning with the crust being only one component of the whole. The crust is tolerated. It is the vehicle to hold the toppings. It is ignored unless it is truly rank and calls attention to itself by being horrible. The discussion, in that case, is the crust is too thick or tastes like carboard or not ... whatever the regional preference is. In all those years I don't ever remember someone saying, go to Dominicks ... it has great crust in the pizza ... Wonderful sausage, great cheese, delicisous sauce, outstanding meatballs, etc ... that's what we discuss when talking all-star pizza. An exception to this is NY pizza where the greasy oily cheese topping is not the star ... yet even there it is about the whole and not just the crust. Sure, in California the crust must get it's due. You have a scattering of spinach leaves, a breath of garlic and a few crumbles of goat cheese hanging desperately on the top of it. The crust better be good in that case because the toppings don't do it ... except in the most minimalist way. I quite frankly have never thought the Bay Area pizza problem as being a lighter bake or underdone, even after first moving here. There was never a "Yikes, they didn't cook this enough" moment. It was more ... ugh ... tasteless sauce ... THIS is supposed to be sausage? The whole component on this coast just doesn't measure up. In the Nizza pie, there is not enough topping. The sauce is nice but there are dabs of sauce amid the thin cheese topping. Toasted garlic is sprinkled here and there. This is not a NY pie. Even if they added the finest house made sausage, it would not be a NY pie. Speaking of the sausage, they might make it next week. They said I was the second person to ask about it. You weren’t there Friday night, were you? And for all the recent pizza activity, all the upscale, wood-burning Italian style pizzas here on the West Coast ... yes better than the dreck that once passed for pizza here ... it still does not measure up to a great or even good East Coast pie from New Haven, NY or Boston. In my little hometown of Waterbury I can still get a pizza that blows the socks off of Picco or wherever. None of it uses what might be considered top shelf ingredients. No wood-fired oven. But the sauce, sausage and dough is house made by the umpteenth generation of the same family. And when you put expertise and ingredients together, that's what makes a good pizza. The pizza places that have the extras like coal or wood-fired ovens, puts the pies on a whole different level and very good becomes the thing of greatness. If the crust has to be a certain degree of done before the pie tastes decent, it isn't a good pie to begin with. And that might be why, with my East Coast sensibilities, I like Goia pizza. I ignore the crust. It is the rest that is so good. The crust is a good enough vehicle to hold the toppings. But even then, other people may have other experiences growing up on the East Coast. I just think it is unfair to issue a blanket statement about what East Coast people expect and what we think of pizza. Not this card carrying East Coast person. Those pizzas don't hang their reputation on a single ingredient or the doneness of the crust. And so I once again state that it is not a very good representation of an East Coast pizza any more than Tomasso's is. I can appreciate both for what they are, but not made of the same stuff as a good East Coast apizza. Yeah, when they start calling it apizza, I'll pay attention That silly pizza place in American Canyon is more East Coast than anything I've tried in this area. If I really needed my East Coast pizza fix, I'd drive there and not Nizza However, it was an enjoyable pizza. I’ve never been there on a weekend … usually it is Monday night. It is a different vibe with both owners and the A Team working. I really liked sitting at the bar chatting it up with the staff. It had a very European bistro feel to it. For anyone interested, they will be open on New Years Eve, no special production. Just their regular dishes with a few specials. Unlike most places, no $$$ premium to eat there on that night. I really don’t think this pizza would satisfy the craving of the original poster. Especially since a Boston pie is a sturdier version than those of NY. The other thing was I really had to work to find out about the NY, NY, NY. It was only mentioned after my distress over the white pizza with gruyere and crimini mushrooms and the other pie that had tomato confit on it … so, I ask, is that like sauce? It was only then the NY, NY, NY was mentioned and I perked up. Seeing the first hint of enthusiasm, that’s when they asked if I wanted it baked extra done. As a Californian, I was very happy. As an East Coast person, this is not what I would expect from a NY pie. Sat Dec 10 23:22:35 -0800 2005 202806 0 rworange 8 202850 lol this nostalgic waxing about great east coast/NY pizza is making me laugh. the majority of us pizzas suck. after I ate pizza in Rome, I couldn't eat a pizza back in the [eastern] states for months. So this discussion struck me as analogous to one about the superiority of making jello with fluoridated vs. non-fluoridated water. Za's and Amici's make me happy. Liked Tommaso's and Viva; don't like North Beach Pizza. Haven't tried these latest popular places; no idea what a "proper" Neapolitan pizza is. When I make a pizza myself, I make the crust thin and use tomato paste instead of sauce. But in the interests of full disclosure, I have to admit that in my wild youth, I actively participated in making pizzas with the Appian Way kit. Sun Dec 11 01:28:28 -0800 2005 202841 0 semmel 9 202854 Not wanting to start a pizza war again or the zillions of personal tastes in regard to a pie. The point was about this specific restaurant. It is described as close to NY Pizza. IMO, it is not. The post was also in response to the expectations of East Coast people that the crust be scorched or baked darker than in the Bay Area. That was not my experience. I think the Nizza La Bella pizza is excellent. I will probably drop by next week if they make the sausage. However, if someone is expecting NY pizza, they may be dissapointed. Sun Dec 11 01:59:33 -0800 2005 202850 0 rworange 8 202860 I cannot opine about East Coast pizza, but in Naples and in Rome it is ALL ABOUT THE CRUST, albeit different styles of crust. Toppings are there to accent a good crust and not hide it. So your childhood memories of tasty delicious pizza may be different than my own and I respect that, but perhaps you should acknowledge that there is a pizza tradition outside of NY City/East Coast Pizza as I have just acknowledged that there is a culture outside of those of Naples and Rome. Sun Dec 11 05:51:26 -0800 2005 202841 0 massimo 9 202864 Let me repeat for the umpteenth time. I have no problem with that. I don't want to initiate yet another endless pizza discussion. This was about one restaurant and identifying it as a serving a specific type of pizza (NY). It is not, in my experience, and those looking for that particular type of pizza here may be disappointed. It is NOT about what particular version of pizza is better than another or prefering one over another. In fact, I did contemplate crust on this visit and paid more attention than I usually do. I can understand a little better people's passion for crust and was impressed by the texture. As said, lovely pizza, will go back when they have the sausage. But, in your case, if you are looking for pizza in the style of Naples and Rome, becuase that is your craving, and someone pointed you to Cheeseboard pizza because it sounded to them like Roman pizza, it would not fullfill that craving. You may like Cheeseboard pizza and admire it for what it is, but it is not what you were seeking. At that point, you would probably want to clarify for that person who is trying to be helpful, what it is that you are specifically looking for and why what was was recommended doesn't meet that criteria. Sun Dec 11 11:20:54 -0800 2005 202860 0 rworange 9 202869 To me, Nizza's pizza seems quite similar to John's of Bleeker Street, except with better vegetables. We were going to go to Nizza Friday night, but I phoned and they didn't have any sausage, so we went to Pizzaiolo instead. Sun Dec 11 12:32:01 -0800 2005 202860 0 Robert Lauriston 10 202987 Ok, kids, I'm home from NY. On the flights I tried to read as much of the NY Chowhound guide as I could, and the pizza descriptions talk lovingly about the crust, proofing, etc. Sounds to me like it's important, at least at the places that have achieved some distinction. NY pizza uses high gluten flour that gives its crust a unique texture and allows it to be stretched so thin. P.S. I'm sad that I forgot to slip the grease-stained paper sack with my half-eaten slice from Sal & Carmine's into my luggage. Mon Dec 12 03:59:42 -0800 2005 202869 0 Melanie Wong 11 202992 nice, hope you got to the religious experience at ave q station on the s-line. (or viceversa?) that's some mind altering stuff. Mon Dec 12 04:26:21 -0800 2005 202987 0 ken ivorous 12 203142 You take the "Q" to get to DiFara's, but no, I didn't make it to Brooklyn. I'll be posting a brief trip report on the Manhattan and Outer Boroughs boards after I catch up on my sleep. Maybe of interest to Napoletana pizza fans or those who remember "solly", "chibi", "squid-kun", and "SpOOny Bard", from this board who are now in NYC. Mon Dec 12 20:50:38 -0800 2005 202992 0 Melanie Wong 13 203209 Yes..the "Q" to DiFara's AND also to Totonno's in Coney Island!!! It was a pigrimmage for me..(I actually grew up on the "Q" line..at least till I turned 8 and we headed out to the suburbs..). In Manhattan I loved Patsy's on E. 117th st. Tue Dec 13 12:46:08 -0800 2005 203142 0 ChowFun (derek) 14 203339 oopsie, on second thought i'm thinking it was the j-station ... "j", "s", "q", they all look kinda similar don't they? :) dang them pesky alphabets. mmm, patsy's makes me happy ... and some cuchifritos while we're at it! Tue Dec 13 20:59:38 -0800 2005 203209 0 ken ivorous 10 202988 hi rl, just swung by Nizza tonite and had a plain pie (tomato sauce, cheese) on the strength of your rec. definitely a very pleasant pizza (for sure better than L'Osteria's plain pie - margharita, had yesterday Saturday afternoon; which reminded me a bit of the pizza from Woolworth that used to be on Market near the cablecar turnaround, sweet, salty, non-acidy tomato paste sauce, good crust though). i enjoyed the nizza pizza, but it's definitely not the archetypal NY pie. Regarding your statement that: "The closest thing to a New York-style pizza a la Patsy's or Lombardi's is at Nizza la Bella". i would have to disagree alongside ms orange. perhaps it resembles the pies from the more upscale-ish pizza restaurants in NY. but it doesn't seem to me to be like any of the more typical NY pizza places. i forget if John's is one of those types of spots, can't remember if I went to Lomardi's (have to check my notes). but it is most assuredly not anything like a pie from Patsy's in Harlem. Village Pizza on Van Ness is much closer to typical NY style and btw quite enjoyable. i'm guessing that the divergent views of what resembles a NY style pie is due to different sampling and representation. the fact is there is not a monolithic "NY Pizza", but rather a range or spectrum of individual pizza interpretations. depending on what part of the spectrum a person has sampled, a particular image of what constitutes NY pizza is so established for the individual. your statement that, "Arinell's does a Ray's-style slice and might satisfy an expatriate New Yorker's desperate craving for that particular regional snack." seems to imply that you view a "Ray's-style slice" as anomalous. however i'm thinking that about 95% of pizza spots in NY are "Ray's" of some sort (please insert chuckle at hyperbolic statement here). seriously though, Ray's in NY is like Tommy's in LA tenfold; Big Ray's, Lil Ray's, Famous Ray's, Ray's Famous, Classic Ray's, Original Ray's, Ray's Original, etc, etc. of the Whatever Ray's that i've tried, they were pretty mediocre to poor but generally what i consider within the range of "typical" NY style. in any case, the point is maybe we're just talking apples and oranges. it might be helpful if i knew which NY places you've sampled. anyhoo thanks for the tip on nizza. rworange: i was really feeling your super-duper long post. i agree with alot of it. i don't completely agree with your take on the crust thing, but i know what you're saying. if i may, here are some musings. some folks (including me) get kinda attached to the whole NY type pizza thing. some of it is surely due to just style preference, but i think it's greatly due to some of us (ok, me) conflating seperate, not-necessarily-related things: 1) the baseline level of pizza yummyness is significantly higher and more consistent in NY than in SF; 2) NY pizza spots on average tend to make pizza in a certain style 3) SF pizza spots tend to make a few dominant styles: typical sf style medium crust ala north beach, ny copies, sf-ny in-between hybrid ala giorgio's, cali "gourmet" medium crust ala pauline's, "gourmet" super-thin crust ala 211, and other numerically less significant ones (chicago, neapolitan). 3) pizza is cheaper in NY, and even the hole-in-the-wall, grimey, mediocre ones in NY can kick the butts of many overpriced, pretentious, SF pizza places that use designer ingredients with gads o' cachet. the upshot is that we (meaning me) may idealize the style of pizza made in NY, when in reality we just wish good pizza was easily available all over SF, for cheap, and without having to tolerate a bunch of pretentious, designer-ingredient-obsessed restaurants and patrons. on crust: ms orange, i don't think it's that crust is unimportant. it's just that in NY most places can make a baseline good crust. in NY, it's not abnormal to see the dough taking a nap in a wooden drawer till it's ready. in SF, we'd be making a big deal of a place that did that. in NY there's consistently better crust, sauce, etc. and the pizza places tend to make a similar style of pizza, so the points of contention are more subtle. no? anyway ... just my fifty cents. Mon Dec 12 04:10:17 -0800 2005 202869 0 ken ivorous 11 202997 >>> the upshot is that we (meaning me) may idealize the style of pizza made in NY, when in reality we just wish good pizza was easily available all over SF, for cheap, and without having to tolerate a bunch of pretentious, designer-ingredient-obsessed restaurants <<< Yeah, that's it. I can't believe I got myself int a friggin pizza discussion. Mon Dec 12 04:43:01 -0800 2005 202988 0 rworange 11 203196 hello, mr.ivorous and ms.wine both bring up instructive contrasts between the NY and SF pie kultures. It isn't only the flour that the NY pie places have in common, but a lot of the main ingredients. When I lived in the middle of NY state a friend worked for a big Italian and Ital-american foods importer-wholesaler. The pie purveyors kept prices down by depending on a lot of mass (not artisan)produced goods, granted there's a hierarchy of quality in commercial goods (DeCecco dried pasta was one of my buddy's lines, for example). The areas where the pie market was more competitive were the same that bought a bigger percentage of the premium ingredients. You seem to be a savvy and frugal pie gourmand, mr.ivorous, and it's no coincidence that you can sniff out the better burritos, because their place in the SF ecology is more comparable to the NY pizza in its native habitat.In this area, sufficient pie afficionados have the leisure and $$ to keep the designer ingredient places quite busy. My wife's from staten i, between the two of us we had a good amount of staten i,brooklyn, new haven, manhattan pies incl. John's' (I think it is a little fancier than the avg. neighborhood spot), and she says she could eat good pizza 3x a week. But the few places we can find it here, the time and $$ limits our indulgence to occasional.For a chain, we find Amici's acceptable in taste but light in substance for the cost.About the best $2 slice around is from the Cheese Board or Arizmendi, but they never use tomato sauce and the toppings vary widely, with varying success, i.m.o. The basic medium take home with sauce and 2-3 toppings from any non-chain pie place, which used to be a semi-staple, is now $16-18. For that money, eating at home one can get fresh wild salmon or halibut for four, live dungeness or Niman porkchops for 5-6. Pardon if this belabors the obvious. I enjoyed your post. Tue Dec 13 05:04:32 -0800 2005 202988 0 moto 12 203347 if you ever feel like getting a quite nice hotdog for the proper cost - also pretty difficult in the bay - check out the liquor store at laguna honda. up the hill, around the corner from forest hill station, past the crappy french restaurant, head in to the little store and pickup a good (but not spectacular) hotdog for $1.50. mustard, kraut, i happen to dig onions on it. pretty good dog, right price, cold bun (i don't have the heart to whine about heating it up), nice guy at the counter; help him out and pickup a beer too. Tue Dec 13 22:31:53 -0800 2005 203196 0 ken ivorous 13 203537 hey, thanks. in my 'hood, there's an o.k 1.50 dog at Colonel Mustard's, two doors down from the Grand Lake movie house, with a good selection of condiments. but I end up getting Aidells or something similar pkg for $6, simmer in ale to defat and plump, toss'em under the broiler, eat with broiled sweet onions and Acme or similar.regards. Wed Dec 14 19:14:26 -0800 2005 203347 0 moto 1 202764 I can tell you where the best pizza is NOT: Zuppa where I had dinner last night. Sat Dec 10 00:24:02 -0800 2005 202467 0 Melanie Wong