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Campari changes carmine to artificial color?

k
Karen_Schaffer Jun 1, 2007 10:12 PM

I recently bought a new bottle of Campari and noticed an interesting change on the label. The old bottle (but not that old, no more than a year) says "Contains natural carmine." The new bottle says "Artificially colored." I did not, alas, notice the difference in time to do a taste comparison, though given Campari's assertive flavor, I doubt I would have noticed anything (if that was indeed the only change).

Carmine is made from cochineal beetles, which some folks find gross and others want to avoid ingesting for philosophical/religious reasons. There have also been a small number of cases of allergic reactions to carmine ranging from asthma to anaphalactic shock. So after reading this, I think, okay, maybe there was good reason for them changing to a 'safer' (we hope!) artificial colorant, though my knee-jerk preference is to stick with the natural coloring.

But then I found sites that claim foods and cosmetics using carmine are allowed to call it just "artificial color," obscuring the issue for those who want to avoid it. So now I'm wondering, did Campari really change the formula or just the packaging?!

And why don't they make a version without that lurid red color anyhow? I wonder what color it would be without it. Clear? Certainly not dark like Angostura bitters. Anyhow, I know, they've built their whole advertising around that color. Though this could be a whole new line -- Campari Clear. Wouldn't you buy it? I would.

Speaking of the packaging, the new bottle, annoyingly, is taller than the old bottle. Not by a lot, just a little, just enough to no longer fit on the shelf where I store it. So I poured the contents of the new bottle into the old one, and that's why I can't do a taste test.

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  1. t
    TimeMachine Jun 2, 2007 10:20 AM

    NOOOOOO! I'm so sad! Campari is one of my favorites and I LOVED the fact that it was colored with carmine, which is such a beautiful red. I bought Campari in Belize and the bottle said it was made in Jamaica. I also thought the color was slightly off--not as intense of a red. Tasted more or less how I remembered though.

    2 Replies
    1. re: TimeMachine
      r
      redchile Jun 2, 2007 10:37 AM

      I have several bottles of Campari, and didn't read the labels when buying. It turns out that I have both varieties, with natural carmine, and the artificially colored.

      I just held both varieties up to a bright light to see if I could detect a difference visually. There is a difference in the color, at least to my observation.

      The natural carmine is a darker, more intense red than the artificially colored. The artificially colored variety has a slightly orangish tint, to me.

      This is disappointing. I guess the most important issue is, do they taste the same. The bottle I have opened contains natural carmine. I'll have to open an artificially colored one to see if there's a difference in taste.

      I hope they taste the same. I've been a Campari fan for 25+ years.

      1. re: redchile
        y
        ynre925 Sep 3, 2007 11:10 AM

        I am a daily negroni enjoyer and I have done side by side taste tests with the original and the artificial version. There is no question that the artificially colored campari taste different, and not in a good way. It is less bitter and has a cough syrup taste to it.

        I have tried to email Campari but have gotten no response and I am now working my Italian connections to find out if the original formula is still available.

        If you have any original formula bottles, hold on to them as they may be worth money to those of us who regularly buy Campari by the case.

    2. MC Slim JB Jun 4, 2007 05:15 AM

      I can think of a few reasons why Campari might abandon the beetle-based dye:

      * It covets the business of the vegan drinking community, which only has a few verbotens on its list, including Campari and Advocaat.

      * It is tired of lawsuits from those drinkers that have a life-threatening allergic reaction to cochineal carmine.

      * It fears a negative marketing campaign from competitors that could characterize Campari as "bug juice".

      But I don't really know if the labeling change really means they've abandoned that coloring. I have not detected any change, and the bottle I got a few weeks back says, "Contains natural carmine."

      5 Replies
      1. re: MC Slim JB
        Papa Kip Chee Jun 4, 2007 10:35 AM

        Yeah, I would feel real bad about abandoning all those 'vegans'...Ha! There is also a possible Kosher option for them if they are not using Carmine also...

        Does anyone know what the original coloring was in Campari? I would venture to say that Carmine was not part of the original formula, but added in later because of production volume exceeding what they could produce with the original colorant. I assume the color came from some root or fruit/veggie?

        1. re: Papa Kip Chee
          MC Slim JB Jun 4, 2007 02:08 PM

          Pomegranate seed pulp seems a likely candidate to me.

          Incidentally, I forgot a lot of other vegan-unfriendly cordials, like anything with cream: Bailey's, Starbucks, Amarula, Vermeer, etc.

          1. re: Papa Kip Chee
            k
            Karen_Schaffer Jun 4, 2007 11:43 PM

            Regarding kosher, here's an interesting statement I ran across: "Warner-Jenkinson cochineal and carmine products have been certified as kosher colors by Rabbi David I. Sheinkopf, Kashruth consultant from Syracuse, NY."

            1. re: Karen_Schaffer
              Papa Kip Chee Jun 5, 2007 05:51 AM

              mmmmm, Kosher Beetles...my favorite!

            2. re: Papa Kip Chee
              b
              butterfly Nov 30, 2007 12:07 AM

              Carmine has been used as a colorant for millennia in Europe (many words for red are derived from little bugs: vermilculus, vermillion, vermeil, bermejo, carmesí, etc.). I wouldn't assume that it wasn't in the original forumula.

          2. k
            kenito799 Sep 4, 2007 03:20 PM

            This is interesting, I looked at my Campari. I have a 1L bottle I bought in NY, there are no ingredients listed anywhere, but it does say "artificially colored". I also have two 750ml bottles I bought at a duty-free shop in Quebec and they list carmine as an ingredient, in a full ingredient list. Furthermore, the bottle from NY lists alcohol/volume at 24% while the Quebec bottles say 25%. Color may be a shade more orange in the NY bottle (less deep red) but the bottles are different sizes so it's hard to tell. The taste is a bit deeper and fresher in the Quebec bottle, but I just opened it while the NY bottle has been open for at least two months, stored at room temp. Date codes: NY: LN/RM06 10:52 Quebec: LS/QG11

            I think I will have to stock up in Canada from now on...

            1 Reply
            1. re: kenito799
              b
              butterfly Nov 27, 2007 09:17 AM

              Interesting... the stuff that I buy here (in Spain) doesn't have an ingredient list, either--I never thought about it, but I don't think liquor here is required to list ingredients. It's 25% alcohol.

            2. u
              Uncle Ira Sep 6, 2007 02:13 PM

              I went to 5 different liquor stores today before I found Campari with “natural carmine”. But the good news is that I WAS able to find it. So apparently it’s still available if you look in the right places. I ended finding it at an Italian restaurant and wine shop, so that might be good lead for others here to check out. Try a place that specializes in Italian imports. The label says that it’s imported by Skyy Spirits, San Francisco, Ca.

              For those of you in Minneapolis - Saint Paul, the place I finally found it was Boun Giorno in Lilydale.

              http://www.buongiornoitalia.biz/

              Uncle Ira

              1. AnneInMpls Nov 16, 2007 10:42 AM

                I just did a taste test with the end of my old bottle (I don't drink Campari very often) and a newly purchased bottle. My opinion: The new stuff tastes icky! It's thinner, less complex, and both sweeter and more bitter than the old stuff.

                I was so unhappy that I came to chowhound to post a complaint, but then I found this thread.

                Thank you, Uncle Ira, for posting the tip about the real, bug-laden Campari at Buon Giorno. I plan to trek out there in the near future to see if they have any left.

                Anne

                1. eatzalot Nov 17, 2007 09:55 PM

                  "Carmine is made from cochineal beetles, which some folks find gross ...There have also been a small number of cases of allergic reactions to carmine."

                  Better keep quiet, then, about how fermentation works (alcohol and carbon dioxide are yeast excreta; by that measure bread, beer, wine, or the alcohol in Campari are all more gross than the carmine coloring). I've made carmine dye from cochineal beetles; I think industrially it's extracted by a solvent, most of the bug remains behind. Individuals can have adverse reactions to many ordinary food ingredients. Episodes of serious poisoning from 19th-century absinthe liquors (another subject on this forum) came actually from cheap synthetic substitutes for the original herbal green coloring. Not every detail in your food is good to contemplate. At least Carmine has been around for a couple centuries and is pretty well understood. I just looked up (in a chemical reference book) actual composition of common synthetic "FD&C" coloring dyes and I don't think most people would want to know those either. In the long view, beetles may not be so bad.

                  1. 2top Nov 18, 2007 07:06 AM

                    Just as a little side bar: Years ago, Ben & Jerry's got rid of the cochineal beetle coloring in the cherries they were using for Cherry Garcia Ice Cream. Doing this also made the product Kosher.

                    1. b
                      Boodles Dec 2, 2007 05:25 PM

                      I've been following this thread for several days. I hope Campari hasn't changed. I'm thinking maybe the labling here in US has been changed by the distributer. After reading the original post, I went to my store and found most of the inventory said "artificially colored." One bottle said, "contains natural carmine." I bought the natural carmine bottle. In the store under flourecent lights I couldn't convince myself that there was a diffference in color, but maybe there was. Both the artificial color and the natural carmine bottles in the store said, "imported by Skyy Spirits." Arriving home with my natural carmine prize, I discovered a bottle of Campari on my shelf that did not list any color or any other ingredient. It is a bottle that is probably one or two years old. It says, "imported by Paddington Ltd." I think the question remains for all of us: has Campari changed or is this simply a matter of the lable that is printed and attached here in US by the importer? By the way, we like our Campari with soda in the summer and in Negroni cocktails before a special Italian dinner at other times of the year.

                      1. m
                        mroigfranz Jan 5, 2008 05:49 PM

                        I live in Mexico City and the Campari I've bought here have two different ingredient lists. Some bottles (the taller ones) say "Colorante E 120" and others (the shorter ones) say "Colorantes: azzorubina E122 - tartracina E 102 - azul brillante FCF E133."

                        Anyone have any idea what this stuff is? I'm not sure what these colorants are, but they sure don't sound natural. And, yes, I have noticed a slightly different taste. I even threw out one bottle thinking that it had been cut with water, which is sometimes a problem with liquor here in Mexico, even when the bottles appear to be properly sealed.

                        2 Replies
                        1. re: mroigfranz
                          b
                          butterfly Jan 6, 2008 07:47 AM

                          E numbers are the standardized form in the EU for referring to food additives:

                          E120 Cochineal; Carminic acid; Carmines

                          http://www.ukfoodguide.net/enumeric.htm
                          http://www.phytone.com/carmine.htm

                          I would think that any label for an EU product that didn't list the additives as an e-number was probably labeled specifically for foreign markets or produced overseas, possibly with a different formula.

                          1. re: mroigfranz
                            b
                            benk Dec 10, 2013 07:32 AM

                            Azo Red (azzorubina) is one of the coal tar dyes (Food Red 3). Brilliant Blue (azul) is another (Blue 1). Tartrazine is a common synthetic yellow dye (FD&C 5).

                            These are generally forbidden from food use in the UK.

                          2. MC Slim JB Jan 5, 2008 10:08 PM

                            As someone who buys Campari on a regular basis, I can now report that the new artificial color is increasingly the norm in the Boston area, and that it is quite inferior to the original cochineal-based color: paler, more orange-y, less deeply carmine. Relatively wan and lifeless compared to the original.

                            It definitely makes for a much less attractive Negroni. I'd venture that Occam's Razor explains the shift better than my theories about booze-loving vegans: it's simply cheaper to use the crappy new artificial coloring agent. A shame. I'd be willing to pay a premium for the bug-juice-colored stuff.

                            3 Replies
                            1. re: MC Slim JB
                              n
                              n0r1 Apr 9, 2008 10:43 PM

                              I'm a booze-loving vegan! And I'm happy to report that this change away from cochineal enables me to enjoy guilt-free Negronis.

                              1. re: n0r1
                                l
                                lbyard Aug 5, 2009 12:14 PM

                                We bought our first "new" Campari today at the New Hampshire State Liquor Store. What a disapointment! Our favorite summer drink for at least the last 30 years has been Campari and soda. Instead of that familar tart taste they sold us a sweet liquor. No more!

                                1. re: lbyard
                                  MC Slim JB Aug 5, 2009 03:12 PM

                                  I don't find that the flavor has changed at all, only that the color is far less attractive. Bring back a bug-juice version for us non-vegans!

                                  Is is possible that your tastes have changed over time? I found Campari unpalatably bitter when I was younger, have considered it indispensible for at least 15 years now.

                                  I wonder if anyone else thinks that Campari is suddenly sweeter than it used to be?

                                  http://mcslimjb.blogspot.com/

                            2. r
                              rose Aug 2, 2012 02:53 PM

                              Has anyone tried to contact Skyy Spirits?

                              1. k
                                kagemusha49 Aug 2, 2012 03:15 PM

                                Don't even ask what goes in the soylent green used to color Chartreuse!

                                1. c
                                  chrisdapos Apr 17, 2013 05:52 PM

                                  Replying to an old threat: does anyone out there know how to interpret the date code on the back of the bottle?

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