405510 Sat May 26 21:06:48 -0700 2007 54 31 Home Cooking 0 2605289 i grew up on my grandmother's pasta and she's always used regular old store bought canned tomato sauce for the base of her sunday sauce. i figured adding san marzanos instead would be a nice touch so i've been tinkering around with it for awhile and can't seem to get the right taste. it just tastes bland to me. i thought it was just the seasoning and maybe the canned sauce has more salt, but didn't help. i've tried herbs, garlic, tomato paste... nothing comes close to the old way. does anyone have any help on how to jazz up these tomatoes a little bit or should i just stick with the old way? Sat May 26 21:06:48 -0700 2007 93262 DoctorQuality 1 2605367 the san marzano tomatoes i buy have no added salt, the only ingredient is tomatoes; typically tomatoes (like eggs and potatoes) need a lot of salt. when you say she used "canned tomato sauce", was it a prepared product? or just canned tomatoes? and i have no idea what you mean by "the old way". Sat May 26 22:15:52 -0700 2007 2605289 30273 hotoynoodle 2 2605960 I'm inclined to agree with that. In the bizarre-o world of American mass market food products, you have to pay extra (often a lot) to buy products where they put less unneccesary salt in in the first place. I've yet to come across a brand of Italian-import tomatoes with added salt. So if you're used to using American products, the Italian will taste "bland", if your tastes are for "salty" to mean "flavorful." On the other hand, if you're used to the imports and switch without tasting before you salt, your sauce may well become inedible unless you "dilute" it with another batch of unsalted sauce (that's happened to me a couple of times.) Sun May 27 10:06:00 -0700 2007 2605367 11980 MikeG 1 2605519 My wife is the one in the family that is of Italian heritage. She uses a great amount of fresh Italian (flat leaf) parsley in her tomato condiment. I call it 'condiment' because of the 47+ years of raging dispute over the terms 'gravy' and 'sauce.' I use the later term. Non sono italiano, ma io mangio italiano. Do you start your tomato sauce with a 'soffritto', sauteed diced onion, diced celery and diced green bell pepper? Sometimes one has to cut the acidity of the tomatoes with a sweetener. Diced carrots added to the soffritto will do the trick instead of adding sugar. You may need to add some meat to the condiment such as beef chuck, Italian sausage and/or spare ribs, all of which should be browned or rendered before the marriage with the tomatoes. My wife adds all those meats to the 'gravy.' Sun May 27 03:48:52 -0700 2007 2605289 11977 ChiliDude 2 3993435 "Gravy" is what Sicilians call tomato sauce. "Sauce" is what the rest of Italy calls it. Adding carrots to tomato sauce is French. Adding red wine is Italian. Thu Aug 28 05:52:31 -0700 2008 2605519 222226 cucinalinda 3 4672755 "Gravy" is what Sicilians/Campagnans/Calabrian-Americans call a "sauce" made with meat as a base..such as a "Sunday" gravy made with different cuts of pork and/or beef. Otherwise plain tomato (ie Marinara) is a 'sauce'. Mon May 11 06:55:47 -0700 2009 3993435 10485 ChowFun_derek 4 4894466 Sorry to get into this so late, but I just joined. My maternal grandmother was Calabrian and my paternal grandparents were Sicilian and I never heard spaghetti sauce called "gravy." We called it "sugo" with my mother's dialect pronunciation. My parents called gravy that brown stuff thickened with flour -- which they didn't like. I had cooked for 35 years before I married a man from North Carolina and his mother taught me how to make gravy. We had spaghetti with broccoli and garlic and oil, or cauliflower and garlic and oil, or lentils with garlic and oil, or sometimes with just garlic and oil. My mother also made a sauce for spaghetti with a pork loin roast (in those days they had a bone) and canned tomatoes, or brucelloni (sp) and canned tomatoes. I grew up in St. Louis in the 40s and 50s. Mon Jul 27 12:08:13 -0700 2009 4672755 1097113 MessyVirgo 5 4988217 thank you Messy Virgo. you are soooo right. "sugo". i know there are some italians that do call it gravy, though. i do not know which. i live in chicago, and we have an area we call "taylor street", an italian neighborhood, well, still for the most part still italian. it was here, that they called in gravy. it always seemed to be the area that called it gravy. not so much the heritage. i had many friends that moved from taylor street to where i live and they all seemed to call it gravy. where i grew up, on the north side(italian then) we called it sugo. we had a mixutre of sicilians, calabrians, etc. no one every called it gravy. point being, after all this time, is it more the area where they lived. i do not really know, asking. all the things you wrote about the brown gravy, and all the garlic and oil pasta and all, it brought make so many wonderful memories. great, how 2 of us who do not know each other at all, but have this in common. Sat Aug 29 08:18:39 -0700 2009 4894466 1105467 karenb0823 3 4906472 I have to throw my two cents in also... My napolitan grandmother always called tomato sauce gravy. Always! And the gravy was pretty basic marinara - sauteed garlic and onion - no peppers, no carrots, no onions, no celery ever. The she'd add a couple of small cans of tomato paste - plain, not seasoned. She'd stir the paste, onions and garlic and use the cans to measure and add water to the mixture to make it smooth. Once it smoothed out, she'd let it simmer on it's own for a couple of minutes, then she'd add some canned, peeled tomatoes, which she would puree herself. Again she'd use the cans to add water to the new mixture and bring it to a boil. Once at a boil, she'd reduce the heat to let simmer, then added some salt, sugar, and basil. For meat sauce, she'd throw in pork bones, cooked sweet and hot sausage and fried (not baked) meatballs. Fri Jul 31 09:44:31 -0700 2009 3993435 1098163 SierraSun 1 2605534 San Marzano make the very best, and tastiest, spaghetti sauce. Don't know about the canned Marzanos, since I grew my own in our garden from heirloom seeds. My recipe is somewhat the same as described by "ChiliDude". I am of German heritage - married Italian. My dad was a chef and this is how he also made his tomato sauce. This year I was not able to plant my beloved heirloom San Marzanos, so intend trying the canned ones available in the grocery stores. I also read somewhere that there is no equal to the tomatoes grown in the volcanic soil of Italy. However, the ones from my garden were pretty darned GOOD !! Sun May 27 04:30:04 -0700 2007 2605289 65993 Lisbet 1 2605668 I am of Italian extraction and an old world Italian foodie which is rare for my younger generation of friends who take out and don't cook anything that takes longer than 30 minutes. A couple of questions for you: 1. Was the sauce a quick one that tasted of summer freshness or the long, slow cooked variety with a more full bodied taste? 2. What do you do to the San Marzano tomatoes? The answer to solve your problem depends on the type of sauce you are making; in Italy the quick one is made often for regular evening meals and the latter is made for making lasagne or when paired with homemade egg noodles. Sun May 27 07:15:44 -0700 2007 2605289 79652 itryalot 1 2605700 I don't have the benefit of *my own* garden of fresh San Marzano tomatoes, but you can create a wonderful sauce from the canned variety, or those "Pomi" chopped tomatoes that come in a little cardboard box. It took me a few years to figure this recipe out, but I was trying to approximate my favorite sauces from restaurants in the North End of Boston. Here is what I came up with: 1. Chop 1 sweet/Vidalia onion and a WHOLE HEAD of garlic cloves. Saute in a few tablespoons good olive oil (be generous) until the onions are translucent (few minutes), but don't brown the garlic. 2. Dump in 1 box Pomi chopped tomatoes, or 1-2 cans of chopped San Marzano tomatoes. Boil momentarily, then simmer 45 minutes. 3. Remove from heat, add a handful of FRESH BASIL LEAVES, and stir into the sauce. Let this sit, covered for a minute or two, so the basil flavors have a chance to come out, then mix again. Taste sauce. Add sugar 1/2 tsp at a time, and salt 1/4 tsp at a time to adjust seasoning. You should have a fantastic, and highly reproducible sauce. Of note- do not cook the basil leaves. You will ruin their delicate flavor. Only add then once the heat has been turned off. Sun May 27 07:36:18 -0700 2007 2605289 66744 powermd 2 2606121 That is how I make my sauce. You are right about the sugar amd basil. Add until it tastes right. Sun May 27 11:40:55 -0700 2007 2605700 62812 chickstein 1 2605708 I suspect that the problem is with something other than the tomatoes - yes, the quality of the tomatoes will affect the sauce, but I'd be surprised if San Marzano ones would make the sauce blander. One question - did you use an Italian brand? I've encountered some lousy tasting canned US "San Marzanos". Sounds to me that there is some ingredient your grandmother used that's missing, and therefore not giving you the flavor you remember. Could she have put some meat in the sauce? Sun May 27 07:41:48 -0700 2007 2605289 10985 MMRuth 2 2605895 I concur TOTALLY. Now, I only buy San Marzano imported from Italy; they are worth every last penny and are not that much more expensive. Additionally, I buy them whole and pass them through a food mill since we don't like seeds in our slow cooked sauce. For quick sauce, I give a rough chop. In both cases, you use the liquid too. I also agree that it is all about what you are pouring the tomatoes into. A pinch of red chili flakes in your soffrito makes a world of difference. Sun May 27 09:43:01 -0700 2007 2605708 79652 itryalot 3 2605919 Another vote for using only the imported San Marzano tomatoes. And you might try different brands to see which you like best. As itryalot said, a pinch of red chili flakes is essential. It won't make the sauce hot -- just gives it some necessary "zing." Sun May 27 09:51:05 -0700 2007 2605895 95434 free101girl 4 3284399 Agreed on the red pepper. I made sauce this weekend, canned San Marzanos, wine, spices, three meats, etc but it just didn't taste right until I added the red pepper flakes. Fri Jan 11 07:07:19 -0800 2008 2605919 134060 GenieinTX 1 2605935 i do make sure to buy italian san marzanos. i add meatballs and sausages and cook them all day. i think the soffritto might be a good bet. like i said, it just seems like there's something needed to give it a little boost. thanks for all your help! Sun May 27 09:57:19 -0700 2007 2605289 93262 DoctorQuality 1 2606081 The San Marzano tomatoes are a red herring here. Your grandmother wasn't starting her finished Sunday sauce with tomatoes, San Marzano or San Anything. She was using a product known as "tomato sauce," sold in groceries by companies like Contadina, Hunt's, etc. and used primarily as a cooking ingredient. I just pulled a can from my pantry and the ingredients are listed as: "tomatoes, salt, dextrose, spices, onion powder, and garlic powder." It's a cooked product before being processed. There's a recipe on the back of the Contadina can for "Favorite Spaghetti Sauce," using ground beef, three cans of tomato sauce and no additional tomatoes, but a few extra dried herbs, onions and garlic. In contrast, canned tomatoes, whether San Marzano or not, are a pretty much raw ingredient having only been heated enough to process for preserving in the canning process. If you want to duplicate your Grandmother's sauce, you may have to do it her way. If you want to add specialty tomatoes to it for texture, you can make her sauce and then fiddle with the seasoning at a late stage in the cooking Sun May 27 11:11:08 -0700 2007 2605289 32444 MakingSense 2 2608919 Yep, tomatoes is tomatoes. Some are better than others, but if they are vine ripened, just about any red variety will make excellent tomato sauce. And as others have noted, concentrating the flavor is the key. For me, the best way, using fresh tomatoes, is to roast them first. Don't peel them, just put them in a 450 degree oven for about 30-40 minutes. They may turn completely black, but that's just the skin, which will peel right off after you let them cool a bit. Pour off any free liquid and you have the perfect base for a tomato sauce. Works with canned, whole tomatoes, too. Mon May 28 19:11:33 -0700 2007 2606081 53530 Zeldog 2 3291662 My grandmother used whole peeled tomatoes in a can that were imported from Italy and packed with basil leaf. There were a number of brands available. I remember labels like Pope. Depending upon what she was doing to it, she may have used paste or not. She started by softening onions and garlic, added paste if she was using it, water to thin the paste and then the whole tomatoes, which may have been chopped or pureed in a blender. These canned tomatoes had many brand names, and she was not totally adverse to a domestic brand, but liked brands from Italy better because she said the tomatoes tasted richer. Starting in the fall, she was using her own canned plum tomatoes, which she had purchased at farmers' markets. She packed those with basil leaf too, and they were delicious. I doubt the OP's grandma was using something from a can called "tomato sauce". Most Italians from that generation were a little suspicious of canned tomato sauce or even crushed tomatoes, for that matter. My mother, however, would occasionally slip a small can of Hunt's tomato sauce into something like pasta e piselli -- but only because she needed a small amount, and she does use crushed tomatoes if she needs to save time. But no canned or jarred items called "sauce". Sun Jan 13 16:27:42 -0800 2008 2606081 87837 RGC1982 1 2606619 I would forego the prepared sauces; they are flavourful but not in an authentic Italian way, more ItaloAmerican flavour. Try powermd's recipe and add a hit of chili flakes in the soffrito. Also, if you are looking for a full bodied sauce, I suggest buying a very flavourful, not lean piece of beef and developing a good fond and brown and get good bits. Make sure you use great EVOO and let the roast brown slowly so the flavours seep out into the soffrito which you would add much later on so as not to burn. Then add the tomatoes and season. Simmer slowly for several hrs and the basil must go in right at the end as stated. The meat can be taken out, sliced and is delicious with broccoli rape or salad and should melt in your mouth. You are basically braising the meat and the sauce gets the flavour. My parents would never serve the meat to company as it is seen as peasant food, but it is fashionable now and the second generation - we fight over it. Good luck. Sun May 27 16:45:26 -0700 2007 2605289 79652 itryalot 1 2607021 I saw an episode of America's Test Kitchen about two weeks ago that featured tomato sauce for pasta. They spent a moment testing store bought canned tomatoes. They concluded that canned American tomatos are more flavorful than their Italian conterparts due to the fact that the American tomatoes are packed in water whereas by law the Italian tomatoes are packed in sauce made from inferior tomatoes. The USDA doesn't allow imported tomatoes to be packed in water. They also concluded the domestic tomatoes have more whole tomatoes per can. I recently switched back to domestic after tasting several types of canned tomatoes side by side. On the other hand maybe you're not cooking down your sauce long enough to get a concentrated tomato flavor. Sun May 27 21:05:12 -0700 2007 2605289 62405 cheapertrick 2 2607246 Lydia first got me into San Marzano tomatoes. She uses her hands to remove the hard core part. I think they have a sweeter more intense flavor. My Italian-am mother always added dried oregano and chopped fresh basil and dried basil. For 3 or 4 big cans, use 1 small can of paste and some water. (of course, the chopped onion and garlic sauteed in olive oil first.) then simmer on very low for hours, stirring now and then. Sun May 27 23:41:39 -0700 2007 2607021 12520 walker 3 2607724 this is similar to how my italian-american family did it too. however, we never used carrots, and NEVER added sugar. tossed in browned sausage and meatballs and simmered all day. Mon May 28 09:21:03 -0700 2007 2607246 30273 hotoynoodle 2 3288933 I read that in Cooks Illustrated as well....do you have a favorite American brand? Sat Jan 12 14:19:58 -0800 2008 2607021 10485 ChowFun_derek 1 2609467 You might find this article interesting - not sure if you have to be an online member to view it - about a woman's quest to recreate her family's tomato sauce: http://select.nytimes.com/search/restricted/article?res=F30911FA395A0C728EDDAB0894DF404482 Tue May 29 03:59:53 -0700 2007 2605289 10985 MMRuth 1 3241404 I prefer canned San Marzanos if I don't have good fresh tomatoes. They seem sweeter and riper than others and are more authentic, I suppose. I think the key to all Italian tomato based sauces is low slow heat. Low heat is so essential or you'll cook out the flavors. I think not all San Marzanos are purely San Marzanos, but buying them whole instead of diced is a better guarantee. For marinara, place 1/4 cup of EVOO on low heat with or 4 whole garlic cloves until the cloves become golden. 5 to 7 minutes. Discard garlic. Add 28 oz. can of whole tomatoes crushing them in your hands and 1 tsp to 1 tbsp (depending on taste) of dried very good oregano. Barely simmer for 20 to 30 minutes. Great for pizza or very simple everyday pasta. For a richer sauce, saute a small diced onion in 1/4 cup EVOO on low heat for 7 to 10 minutes. Some add add a grated carrot. Don't brown the onion, get in soft. Add 3 or 4 roughly chopped garlic cloves and cook on low for a minute or two. Crush in 28 oz. can of tomatoes add 1 tsp to 1 tbsp. of oregano. Barely simmer for 30 to 35 minutes. You can add a pinch of sugar. I like adding 2 pinches of crushed red pepper and 10 grinds of black pepper to the oil before the tomatoes. The important part is NOT to boil, but cook on very low heat, smashing the tomatoes to make the sauce more velvety. Some people put the tomatoes through a food mill to get to get rid of the seeds. I don't. I do turn off the heat and stir in a handful of fresh basil at the end. Good tomatoes plus low heat equals sublime. The key to all Italian food. . . . Thu Dec 27 18:13:29 -0800 2007 2605289 152853 warnerbenjaminj 1 3241564 Aside from all of the other plausible explanations offered above, here are two more possibilities: 1) dried herbs vs. fresh. Are you using fresh basil/garlic/oregano? It is possible that your grandmother used the dried/powdered versions of these items, as they were not always available/affordable fresh all year round. My great-grandmothers used tomato paste, garlic powder, and dried basil half of the time (after they came to this country), which I wouldn't dream of using today. It tastes completely different from using their fresh counterparts. 2) citric acid. Many US brands of canned tomatoes have added citric acid, which can definitely affect the flavor in a way that is inimitable if you are using unadulterated, higher quality tomatoes. Could it be that you are accustomed to the citric acid? Good luck and let us know if you figure it out. Thu Dec 27 19:39:14 -0800 2007 2605289 102095 vvvindaloo 1 3284132 I'm assuming San Marzano's are imported from Italy? If so, check the ingredient list. You will probably see that they are packed in puree rather than juice. Why? Because of 1989 US tarrifs on imported 'vegetables'. Tomatoes packed in juice are considered vegetables and carry the tarrif. Tomatoes packed in puree are considered a sauce, and do not carry the tarrif. But the puree is obtained by pulverizing and then cooking some of the tomatoes, so there is less of a fresh flavor. There other differences as well, involving the amount of citric acid and calcium chloride added. Fri Jan 11 04:51:14 -0800 2008 2605289 124339 bnemes3343 2 3284437 >>>should i just stick with the old way? IMO, yes. After paying an inordinate amount of money for the SM tomatoes, I wasn't impressed. I'll go back to my old gravy. Fri Jan 11 07:19:47 -0800 2008 3284132 11104 dolores 3 3288781 Gee I paid about $3.00 a 28 oz can at S&S, and I'm worth it! I don't think that's too much. Sat Jan 12 13:27:22 -0800 2008 3284437 156472 sandman843 2 3288967 This 2003 report from the Agricultural Resource Marketing Center http://www.agmrc.org/agmrc/commodity/vegetables/tomatoes/processedtomatoprofile.htmsays says that the US has standard tariff rates "for imports from nations with which the United States maintains normal trade relations. Such tariffs are normally applied to all trading partners except those whose normal tariff status has been suspended by specific legislation...The U.S. tariff on tomato ketchup imports is 6 percent. Imports of other tomato sauces and prepared or preserved tomatoes are charged a tariff of 11.6 percent." NO distinction is made among various tomato products, whether they are packed in juice, purée etc. My market carries both purée- and juice-packed DOP designated tomatoes at about the same high price. They also have non-DOP S. Marzanos for a lower price. Sat Jan 12 14:32:41 -0800 2008 3284132 32444 MakingSense 3 3289473 Here is the part from Cooks Illustrated...I adjusted some of it... The stale taste of the Italian brands in our lineup, it turns out, has more to do with trade laws than crop differences. In 1989, the United States imposed debilitating punitive tariffs on imported European fruits and vegetables--from 13.6 percent to an exorbitant 100 percent. Unsurprisingly, Italian tomato prices went through the roof, and sales of imported tomatoes dropped off dramatically. To avoid paying the steep duty, Italian tomato canners eventually began packing their tomatoes in tomato puree rather than juice. What was The loophole? When packed in juice, tomatoes are considered a "vegetable"; when packed in puree, they're a "sauce," which carries a much lower customs duty. Sure enough, the Italian brands were all packed in a thick puree (even though two brands inaccurately call it "juice" on the label). A clever strategy, but not without its downside. Tomato puree, which is made by pulverizing and then cooking tomatoes, imparts a "cooked" flavor to the fresh, uncooked tomatoes packed in it; tomato juice, by contrast, is uncooked. Taster comments fell in line with that hypothesis. The Italian brands were indicted repeatedly for metallic off-notes and "overcooked, stale" qualities, among other faults. By contrast, most of the domestic brands were packed in a thin juice. (For the generally well-liked Redpack, the one domestic exception, tasters had but one complaint: a somewhat processed taste reminiscent of "ketchup.") Progresso and Muir Glen came out on top.... Sat Jan 12 18:06:51 -0800 2008 3288967 10485 ChowFun_derek 4 3289950 Note the DATE on the tariff information I referenced - 2003. The 1989 punitive tariffs were likely short-lived during one of the on-again, off-again trade wars that we're always having with other countries. That one was probably part of the so-called Banana Wars when we increased tariffs on everything from cardboard boxes to Louis Vuitton handbags and all sorts of agricultural products. The WTO settled it and things settled back to normal after everybody lost a lot of money on their exports. Cooks Illustrated is completely correct about the taste of tomatoes packed in puree however, even if their trade law is a little out of date. I was told that one of the reasons that puree is used is that it allows the packers in the DOP region to use tomatoes for the puree from outside that region. The whole tomatoes in the can have to be grown in the region to get the DOP designation, but they can catch a pass on the puree. When you think about how small that area is and how many cans of S. Marzanos are exported every year, it does make you wonder how they can grow so many. I have no substantiation for this other than having been told by sources who have always been reliable. Sat Jan 12 22:26:25 -0800 2008 3289473 32444 MakingSense 5 3290644 This is just what I suspected. Over the past few months, I am finding it harder to get San Marzano tomatoes in juice with nothing added (a leaf of basil would be ok). Indeed, many of the brands that have recently begun carrying San Marzano DOP tomatoes (Vantia, Sclafani) only offer them in puree, and those same brands are so much larger that they appear to be drowning out the others. I figured there had to be a reason why they were shoving the puree down our throats... and I wondered whether the puree portion was San Marzano, as well. I am not sure of the reason, but I think that what made me question it was the inconsistency of the flavors among brands. For me, the Famoso (I find at Whole Foods) and Strianese (local Italian grocers) brands of San Marzano in juice come out on top. Both have the DOP designation on the can. Sweet and fresh tasting. Sun Jan 13 09:46:03 -0800 2008 3289950 102095 vvvindaloo 6 3291148 Try Lavalle if you can find it, it's the only one I'll use. Sun Jan 13 13:15:20 -0800 2008 3290644 11097 coll 7 3291287 Yes, La Valle are also very good. Forgot about those. Thanks, Coll. Sun Jan 13 14:12:01 -0800 2008 3291148 102095 vvvindaloo 8 3291523 I know, unfortunately they're not that easy to find. Luckily I can get them wholesale, and a case should cost less than $20, I was shocked when I saw the internet prices! Sun Jan 13 15:31:19 -0800 2008 3291287 11097 coll 9 3294389 the 28 oz. can costs between 3 and 4 dollars here in the NYC area, for all brands of true imported San Marzano DOP tomatoes, whether they are packed in juice or puree. i actually don't mind paying that amount, because the flavor is so markedly different, and superior, in my opinion. while i think the price is high, i look at it as a trade-off: one extra dollar makes the dish taste like it does in Italy. Mon Jan 14 12:52:22 -0800 2008 3291523 102095 vvvindaloo 10 3294434 Did you ever get the Lavalle in the glass bottles? I don't care what they cost, I buy every one of them when I see them. And they make little tomato pastes too. Mon Jan 14 13:02:54 -0800 2008 3294389 11097 coll 6 3291149 I've been liking the Ital brand ones that have DOP on the label. It's a dark blue label with tomatoes. Sun Jan 13 13:16:30 -0800 2008 3290644 12520 walker 5 3998699 Making Sense is right about the dates and changes in tariff laws; they've been updated into a "uniform schedule" that makes more logical sense and doesn't involve labels like "sauce' or "art" but taxes the "what" Sat Aug 30 11:36:43 -0700 2008 3289950 141035 oryza 1 3292036 we never add sugar to the gravy the sweetness of basil and/or a bit of onion does the trick the only time we add onion celery carrots is in a bolonese sauce the only time we add green peppers is in something like a cacciatorre (sp) Sun Jan 13 18:55:08 -0800 2008 2605289 113619 foodperv 1 4598346 It is definitely not the tomatoe if it is authentic San Marzano, it is your seasoning. Garlic sauteed in olive oil, then add tomatoes, whole basil leaves (remove after they start getting shriveled and real dark). Add some red wine, salt, black pepper and if you like it spicy: a hint crushed red pepper and maybe a tiny squirt of srirachi &/or a splash of spicy V-8. Sugar is something I like, typically I use brown sugar (more flavor than white), like salt, sugar is other main flavor enhancer. In this case it works perfectly to mask any undesired bitterness. I stongly advise the aversion to bell pepper in your marinara, despite being mild, they the tomatoe flavor. I find onions unnecassary (I don't use much ever in anything), however, if you are a fan, they can add some sweetness if done properly, if not, they may add bitterness. Skip the tomatoe paste and puree. Wed Apr 15 11:17:43 -0700 2009 2605289 282935 Sbyre888 2 4666139 sriracha? v-8? BROWN SUGAR? holy-moley. my grandfather, big ray, is rolling in his grave right now, lol. in more traditional versions, the tomato paste is there for sweetness and depth, btw. Fri May 08 09:49:18 -0700 2009 4598346 30273 hotoynoodle 1 4598404 I am not sure if you cook a lot Dr Quality, but one thing I had a real hard time when I started cooking was how much salt to add. I was never adding enough for fear of it being too salty and it always looked like it was a lot when I was adding it- but wasnt. It wasnt until I saw some friends cook that I said hey I need to add more. So try generously salting at the start of the process then taste and adjust. Wed Apr 15 11:30:52 -0700 2009 2605289 158016 cassoulady 1 4666077 my grandfather was from Abruzzi and used to call it gravy, so it is not just sicilians. We always used canned whole tomatoes and maybe a can of paste. Sometimes a can of tomato sauce was used as well, but make sure it just contains tomatoes and sauce. All we did was saute onions and garlic in some olive oil and then add the tomatoes which were put through a grinder. sometimes we added a carrot and then took it out after it absorbed the acid. Also we sometimes used to put in 1/4 tsp of baking soda. this takes out the acid and does not add flavor. We never added oregano or peppers or anything like that. if you want flavor, you add meat that you have browned first. All those other spices just hide the great taste of the tomato. the onions give a sweet taste so you do not need sugar. the few cloves of crushed garlic is all you need for a good gravy. Fri May 08 09:28:39 -0700 2009 2605289 291101 rcwebr 1 4666278 I'll be a contrarian here. Spaghetti sauce has been made for many generations. As far as I know, it's only in the last decade or so that we're hearing the words 'San Marzano". Used to be just plum tomatoes, which some people bought or grew for making sauce. At one time, they were frowned upon for salads because of their thicker skin. (That never bothered me; I liked their meaty texture and flavor better than other storebought tomatoes). I blame Lidia Bastianich for making us all think we couldn't make good sauce unless we had San Marzano tomatoes. Then again, I find her too self-promoting and wouldn't be surprised if she's invested in the companies that sell these. I have occasionally bought canned SM tomatoes on sale, and never noticed a difference in my pasta sauce but never tasted side-by-side, and since I don't measure ingredients my batches are not identical. Use whatever ingredients give you a sauce that you enjoy, authenticity be damned. Fri May 08 10:31:47 -0700 2009 2605289 159317 greygarious 1 4769022 Other than salt, pepper and other herbs that we all use in sauce I add pesto. The flavor is unbelievable. I also add a little lemon juice and fresh grated parmesean. Sat Jun 13 04:04:53 -0700 2009 2605289 1083089 cherylcmcneil 2 4769387 Be careful of the so called San Marzano which are grown and packed in NAmerica vs the ones grown and packed in Italy. Ingredients should be very few (tomatoes, salt and basil). They should be whole and passed through a food mill. When I make the quick, fresh sauce I deseed them and then slice some into filets to get a different texture. I have grown San Marzano from seeds I bought in Italy - not the same thing. The quality of San Marzanos vary greatly, but the volcanic soil does enhance the taste. I have used domestic, imported, etc. First choice is my homemade ones in jars, second is DOP San Marzano - others taste too sweet. Sat Jun 13 08:13:07 -0700 2009 4769022 79652 itryalot 1 4988448 I rely on the Sclafani brand of tomatoes. They pack San Marzanos from Italy, and also have a pack of domestic tomatoes. I prefer the San Marzanos, but then, I don't recall what the *other* brands of San Marzano tomatoes were that I've tried, it was so long ago. When I make sauce, I use 2 parts Sclafani to 1 part Pastene brand "ground" tomatoes. I don't use tomato paste. As an aside, other comments about tomato sauce: * Never * use sugar, carrots nor oregano *do* use good garlic, good basil and *plenty* of bay leaf When I make "spaghetti and meatballs," I commit the sacrilege of cooking the meatballs in the sauce, without browning them at all, for an hour or two. This produces a soft meatball with flavors of the sauce permeating them. Sat Aug 29 10:21:42 -0700 2009 2605289 270888 shaogo 2 4991931 What is your reasoning for never using sugar, carrots or oregano? I use all 3 and my sauce tastes fabulous. Mon Aug 31 02:41:58 -0700 2009 4988448 190009 Calipoutine 1 4991691 this is how I have been making my tomato sauce lately.. very simple.. a world of flavor.. and slightly zesty (though you could omit red pepper flakes entirely) 2 28oz can of san marzano (I pass through a food mill personally) 1 medium onion, diced finely 2 garlic cloves, minced finely 1/2 of 1 whole carrot, sliced into quarters (or 5-6 baby carrots) 1/4 cup or so olive oil 1 bay leaf red pepper salt heat olive oil in sauce pan, cooking onions until they go almost translucent (not browning or burning. so cooking on low/medium heat.. just a modest sizzle).. about 3-4 minutes. add in garlic. let sizzle modestly (turn down heat if necessary etc.) until mixture stars to look yellow/golden. basically I want garlic to break down and onions/garlic to soften so they blend better in sauce. add tomatoes, bring to boil and immediately lower to simmer. I then add the carrots, bay leaf, and a pinch of red pepper flakes (not full amount just yet), and a pinch of salt. I then let simmer.. taste sauce and add more pepper/salt as needed. Simmering will take 45 min - 1hr or so until desired texture is achieved. I remove bay leaf and carrots before serving. Sauce goes great with cheese which just adds that much more flavor and can substitute for adding a ton of salt to a sauce. I found the trick to be boiling the carrots in the sauce. Makes it less acidic and more sweet. Call it cheating or whatever.. but I find some basic pomodoros just too sour sometimes if not done right. I like the bay leaf for the added flavor as well... but this is not your normal sauce as it has a bite to it (garlic, red pepper)... Try adding carrot and removing it. I put in enough carrots to just become interpersed in the sauce. Sun Aug 30 21:09:58 -0700 2009 2605289 255447 shanshan 1 5138305 Totally agree. Have spent 9$ per can and while great 'quality' they are bland. Perfect description. Nothing works. So, I found the San Marzano brand 'domestically grown' tomatoes sold by Whole foods. White lable can, red tomato and green lettering. The absolute best. Right salt content. Flavor that only requires little seasoning to create the flavor and keep the awesome tomato taste. Try em, let me know. mstasidds@aol.com Wed Oct 28 14:23:03 -0700 2009 2605289 1119943 denverdoc