400644 Fri May 11 10:29:31 -0700 2007 41 34 Wine 0 2561726 One of my favorite wines was the sangiovese made by Zenaida. They have recently trashed all their sangiovese vines, as has Justin. Mastantuono made a sangiovese, but they just went out of business and the winery that took them over is not producing one. Two questions: Is there a reason why sangiovese's are on the decline in Paso Robles? Can anyone recommend a good Central Coast sangiovese? Fri May 11 10:29:32 -0700 2007 28030 AlabasterDisaster 1 2561965 Foxen (in S.B. County) makes a nice Sangiovese Volpino. Fri May 11 11:25:45 -0700 2007 2561726 75002 Megiac 1 2561988 Rusak, Santa Ynez, had a very nice one two years ago when I was there. I wasn't crazy about the Zenaida Sangiovese when I was there. I wonder if Pipestone (Paso Robles) is producing any - their wines are stellar. Fri May 11 11:30:15 -0700 2007 2561726 91434 martasiete 1 2562093 There's only one slight proble with your premise. It's not that Sangiovese is on the decline in Paso; it's whether or not they were ever on the increase! In 2005, only 11,433 tons of Sangiovese were harvested in all of California. Compare this to Pinot Noir (56,358 tons), Grenache (71,419 tons), or Syrah (100,865 tons) -- let alone Merlot (327,655 tons), Cabernet Sauvignon (405,734 tons), or Zinfandel (419,222 tons). In terms of acreage, there were only 2,178 acres of Sangiovese in production in all California. Not very much. And most of it -- all things considered -- isn't all that great in terms of quality. Yes, there are some good wines from Sangionvese made in California, but they are few and far between. That's not only my opinion, but the opinion of consumers everywhere . . . after all, if the wine was selling like those proverbial hotcakes, growers would be planing more, not ripping the vines out or budding over to a different variety. Fri May 11 11:50:47 -0700 2007 2561726 28122 zin1953 2 2562355 I am guessing it is too hot for sangiovese in Paso Robles. The vineyards must have been in the cooler areas. Fri May 11 13:10:27 -0700 2007 2562093 62812 chickstein 2 2562482 That is interesting. I tend to like California Sangiovese's, as well as several of the blends, such as Bacio Divino's Pazzo and Ferrari-Carano's Siena. Can you name any of the more reputable Cali Sangio's? Thanks! Fri May 11 13:45:54 -0700 2007 2562093 28030 AlabasterDisaster 3 2567389 I'm a bad person to ask about California Sangiovese . . . I've only had a few that I thought rose above "interesting." The Palmina has already been mentioned; Shafer, Unti and Seghesio are worth trying. But the best I ever had was Storrs, and they no longer produce it. Still, IMHO, Italy does it better and cheaper, so . . . Mon May 14 06:17:56 -0700 2007 2562482 28122 zin1953 4 2567438 Does Staglin still produce a Sangiovese? Mon May 14 06:42:53 -0700 2007 2567389 62812 chickstein 5 2567590 In so far as I know, yes. Mon May 14 07:40:32 -0700 2007 2567438 28122 zin1953 6 3279189 Shafer stopped Sangiovese production, literally sending a white flag of surrender with their last bottle to Antinori in Tuscany. Luna makes a Sangiovese. It's OK, but I recommend you read the recs on this board for Chianti, Chianti Classico, Morellino di Scansano, etc. I don't think this country grows the grape well. With Sangiovese values from Italy, and high production/land costs in California, it doesn't make growing sense or financial sense for a winery to make it. Wed Jan 09 17:21:45 -0800 2008 2567590 18222 maria lorraine 7 3280849 No, it doesn't. I agree completely. Logically I think it should do well, but it never has -- not consistently. Whether that's due to clonal selection, viticultural- or winemaking practices, I have no idea. But were it to disappear completely from California, I wouldn't be disappointed . . . Thu Jan 10 08:40:10 -0800 2008 3279189 28122 zin1953 8 3281155 I guess everyone’s taste is different because I like CA Sangiovese. Although I drink gallons of Italian Sangiovese (Brunello, Vino Nobile, Super Tuscan, Chianti & 100% Sangiovese) every month, I really enjoy several domestic examples. My favorites are: Altamura, Napa Ramazzotti, Dry Creek Valley Montevina - Terra D’ Oro, Shenandoah Valley Vino Noceto , Shenandoah Valley Flora Springs, St. Helena Seghesio Family Vineyards, Healdsburg 2003 Meredith Family Vineyards, Trinity County Macchia, Amador County 2001 Hunt Cellars, “Rhapsody”, Destiny Vineyards, Paso Robles Pedroncelli, Dry Creek Valley Monticelli Bros., “Mario”, Napa Pietra Santa, San Benito County I agree with Zin about Caparone in Paso Robles; it’s a little “rustic”. Thu Jan 10 09:46:31 -0800 2008 3280849 14128 BN1 1 2563104 Palmina makes a sangiovese blended with a touch of merlot that is delicious; I think it's called Alisos after the name of the vineyard in Los Alamos. Fri May 11 16:45:02 -0700 2007 2561726 74451 vinosnob 1 2567724 I’ve enjoyed several good versions of California sangiovese. The ‘01 and ‘02 Altamura $28 and the ‘03 Ramazzotti $18 are my favorites. The Montevina - Terra D’ Oro $14 is always reliably good as is the Vino Noceto $14, both from the Sierra foothills. The ‘03 Seghesio $24 was good but so are the offerings from Flora Springs $13 reliably good at about half the price. From Lockeford, the ‘03 Macchia, Harmonious $14 is a very good sangiovese and they make a really good nebbiolo. The ‘02 Showket was highly recommended but I was only able to get the ‘03 for $30 and I was disappointed. A little winery up in the hills of Trinity County made a tasty ‘03 Meredith Family Vineyards $13 but only the ‘03. Most of these are 100% sangiovese, I believe. I like to hunt for Cal-Italian wines, although I mostly drink wines from Italy now. For instance, I got a sangiovese from Le Marche, ‘03 Fazi Battaglia $10.00, that was delicious. Cal sangiovese is some of the most reasonably priced wine produced in the state, but it still costs as much or more than Italian wines after shipping charges from halfway around the world. Mon May 14 08:21:19 -0700 2007 2561726 14128 BN1 2 2570178 Hi, I think a lot of the Paso wineries that use Sangiovese are using it in blends, but Tobin James & Eberle produce Sangioveses (Eberle's is sold out). Mon May 14 22:02:23 -0700 2007 2567724 64009 LANative 3 2570757 Have you tasted Martin & Weyrich Sangiovese? Have you tried Caparone Sangiovese or Nebbiolo? I’ve been planning a trip to Paso Robles to seek Cal-Italian wines, so I would appreciate any info. http://www.pasowine.com/wineries/profile.php?winery=98 Tue May 15 08:25:45 -0700 2007 2570178 14128 BN1 4 2572147 I have had Caparone...it is really good! family style, small and personal tasting 'room' (it's a warehouse). They tout 'non-filtered', which really seemed to make the wines have a more complex taste, especially the aftertaste which was great. The Sangiovese and Nebbiolo were our faves, and for only $14 (last year) it's quite a good deal IMO. AFA Italian reds, Caparone is a real gem! Haven't had M & W...we've heard good things but since there's so many choices in the area we tend to stay away from the larger places. Doce Robles made a good Barbera a year ago. All in all, we've had more luck finding good wines on the west side. Tobin James, Eos, et al just didn't do much for us, but things may have changed in a few years I dunno. Tue May 15 14:28:07 -0700 2007 2570757 98810 BigVinoD 4 2572268 Keep in mind that everything is relative -- that is, it's all based on one's personal palate preferences. Caparone began in 1978, and I gave up on their wines in the late 1980s, having never found a single one to my liking. That said, I've also had no desire to try any more of them based on that experience -- there are too many other wines out there to waste my time/money on wines I didn't like. Perhaps (hopefully) they're much better now than they were 20 years ago . . . . Tue May 15 15:06:47 -0700 2007 2570757 28122 zin1953 1 2572292 I picked up some lovely Sangio's from Fratelli & Perata at last years' harvest, as well of some of their library merlots. Small place, and they seem to be flummoxed by their own cash register, but there is a lot of heart and skill going into their wines. Tue May 15 15:14:58 -0700 2007 2561726 10846 themis 2 2572871 I haven't tasted at M&W in a while; I didn't care for the people working the tasting room the last two times I was there, but the wine was good. If you are going to Paso, you'll have a great time, BN1. The wine festival this weekend (we're going) would be a great opportunity to get a lot of tasting in. I say, check out the winery profiles, visit the ones that intrigue you. My current top favorites are: Silver Horse, Turley, Linne Calodo & Lone Madrone, but there are so many great wineries, with their own individual charm... Tue May 15 18:31:47 -0700 2007 2572292 64009 LANative 2 4481212 We belong to Fratelli & Perata and love everything they do. Greay sangio and I completely agree it is hard to find a good CA sangio. I also agree with the Eberle. M Fri Mar 06 18:10:44 -0800 2009 2572292 12824 MunkeeCIAO 1 3270011 I just tried the 2005 Showket sangiovese (oakville), wow is it great now--fruity and well balanced to the end--The 2005 Showket asanti sana (80%sangiovese/20%cab) was much deeper with more complex oak and tannic components, excellent wines and especially the blend will be better with a little age. Mon Jan 07 11:24:07 -0800 2008 2561726 155437 elgreco 1 3284940 My favorites are Vino Noceto and Bennessere (However you spell it). As as blend, I like Siena. I've liked Flora Springs but I haven't seen a bottle in about three years. The problem with sangiovese, as described by one grower, is that it grows best where cabernet sauvignon grows best but it's more difficult to grow. They figure they can get more money with less hassle by growing cabernet sauvignon. Fri Jan 11 09:16:29 -0800 2008 2561726 11117 SteveTimko 1 3307425 I think that growing Sangiovese should be left to the Italians. It bothers me that people try and grow Sangiovese outside of Italy. When people say I had a great Sangiovese from California the other day, I think to myself no you didn't. This is why people say that I tried a Sangiovese from Italy the other night and it didn't taste anything like the one I had from California. I hope not, the one from Italy had more depth and elegance than the Californian. I think that with Italian Varietals you need to grow them only in Italy where they are supposed to be grown. Fri Jan 18 03:39:53 -0800 2008 2561726 149582 horvath42 2 3307641 I had a great Sangiovese from Argentina. Bodega Norton Sangiovese Fri Jan 18 06:27:38 -0800 2008 3307425 19281 2top 2 3307659 And syrah should only be grown in the Rhone, pinot noir and chardonnay only in Burgundy. So that leaves the United States with what -- Concord grapes? Fri Jan 18 06:33:11 -0800 2008 3307425 11117 SteveTimko 3 3307717 And, Crljenak kaštelanski should only be grown in Croatia? Fri Jan 18 06:54:51 -0800 2008 3307659 19281 2top 2 3308082 While I agree Italy does Sangiovese extremely well, I'd be sad to restrict the growth of any varietal to one region of the world. The expansion of the wine world has resulted in better wine, better availabilty and more choice for wine lovers world-wide. I greatly appreciate the differences in regional expressions of varietals. I also am grateful that I don't have to battle with millions of wine drinkers for the few bottles of Pinot that are produced in Burgundy, and no where else. Let's not forget the role of the local wine industry in the growth of wine appreciation. The Californian wine industry has contributed significantly to the increased wine market in North America. It is the success of California that has significantly increased the chances of success in areas like Oregon/Washington, the Finger Lakes region, Niagara and the Okanagan Valley. These local wine industries in turn create an new market of wine drinkers, who then want to explore other wine regions, and then support other wine producers, including Old World producers. And so on. More market, more choice, all good. Another point: Even the world's greatest wines have a time and place. I adore Brunello, but I would not want to drink Brunello all the time. For example, I'm not sure I'd be a big fan of it with barbeque. (although I could make do!) Sometimes you want a wine that isn't quite so elegant. Variety is a luxury. BTW, I had a great Sangiovese from California the other day (yeah, I know what you're thinking :-), I'm cool with it). And yes,it was nothing like Sangiovese from Italy. And yes it had less elegance than a lot of great Sangiovese from Italy. But it was still a good bottle of wine, and it made the meal very special. And isn't that what wine is supposed to do? Fri Jan 18 08:27:21 -0800 2008 3307425 89969 moh 3 3308686 "BTW, I had a great Sangiovese from California the other day" What bottle was it? Fri Jan 18 10:33:21 -0800 2008 3308082 28030 AlabasterDisaster 4 3309128 I had the Luna Reserve 1999. I got it for a really good price, half off its usual price. Would I pay full price for it? Maybe not. But at half price it was a very reasonable bottle... I don't disagree with Horvath42's point that good Italian sangiovese has a depth and elegance that is not as easily found in a Californian Sangiovese. But I wouldn't want to be limited to one style of wine from one region. Interesting, this notion that certain grapes should only be grown in certain places. But not an uncommon one! In another thread, Maria Lorraine posted an article on the owner of Biondivino in San Franciso. In that interview, the owner stated that nebbiolo should not be grown in California. Fri Jan 18 12:08:32 -0800 2008 3308686 89969 moh 5 3309163 Said that it should be grown in Piedmont, not even a larger area in Italy. Fri Jan 18 12:16:56 -0800 2008 3309128 10133 wally 2 3308713 What specifically about the Italian varietals make them different than, say, the French ones? I've heard this about nebbiolo and sangiovese, but wonder why this is so. Fri Jan 18 10:39:13 -0800 2008 3307425 97069 mengathon 3 3310135 >>> I've heard this about nebbiolo and sangiovese, but wonder why this is so. <<< There is no one single answer for this. In theory, these varieties should do well in California. However, much of the early attempts wre made from poor examples of the variety -- either weak clones, diseased vines, etc. But more important than that is TIME. The California wine industry is often affected by what I've long called the "Instant Jell-o Syndrome." If one looks back at history, the first vineyards went into Monterey County in 1962 (IIRC). Early Cabernets, Zinfandels and even Pinot Noirs from that area (think up to 1974) were truly horrid! "Monterey veggies" was a common epithet associated with these wines. So, what happened? Everyone ripped out their reds and planted Riesling and Chardonnay . . . But first, Dick Peterson at The Monterey Vineyard showed that you could make pretty good "fighting varietal" (modestly priced; good, everyday wines) wines from Cabernet, Pinot Noir, Gamay and other reds. (Indeed, his was probably the first Monterey winery where the reds were better than the whites!) Then came along producers like Smith & Hook, Jekel, Hahn, and others who showed you could make "serious" Cabernets, Merlots, etc. from Monterey County. What changed? Nothing. Well, nothing but time. When the first vineyards went into Monterey, Paul Masson's vineyard managers continued to grow the grapes utilizing the exact same methods that they used in Saratoga; Wente continued with the same techniques employed in their Livermore vineyards. But the weather and soil are completely different in, say, Soledad than either Saratoga or Livermore, and it took time -- and experimentation -- to see what growing methods worked, what didn't; which ones to keep, and which to discard. You can't change viticultural practices today and see the results tomorrow . . . it takes years. Beause of the poor material planted in the past, many Californiawine drinkers were -- and remain -- turned off by even the thought of Nebbiolo and Sangiovese grown here in California. Heck, I'm one of them. But there remains no reason why -- with GOOD clonal selection, planting in the right location, and utilizing the right techniques in both vineyard and winery -- California cannot make some pretty good wines from these varieties . . . if they have the patience. In other words, we are some 10-20+ years away . . . Fri Jan 18 16:23:34 -0800 2008 3308713 28122 zin1953 4 3310684 Thanks zin, as always. Fri Jan 18 20:07:06 -0800 2008 3310135 97069 mengathon 2 3310078 Right attitude, wrong answer . . . >>> When people say I had a great Sangiovese from California the other day, I think to myself no you didn't. <<< Yes they did! No wine grape variety is native to California. Some (Vitis labrusca) are native to the East Coast of the United States, but most of the world's great wines are produced from the varities found in the Old World (Europe, originating in the Middle East), that is to say, Vitis vinifera. So if the spirit behind your statement ("When people say I had a great Sangiovese from California the other day, I think to myself no you didn't") has to do with planting grape varieties only in their original locales, the multi-billion dollar wine industry of California -- and by extention, virtually the entire New World -- would cease to exist. OTOH, if the spirit behind your statement ("When people say I had a great Sangiovese from California the other day, I think to myself no you didn't") has to do with the quality of the Sangiovese grown in California, there are many who might agree with you BUT it all boils down to own's own personal palate preference. For instance, I've often said that I can count the number of truly great California Sangioveses I've tasted -- defined simply as "I'd buy another bottle" -- on one hand, but I wouldn't dare tell someone else who loved (e.g.) Castello Cache Phloe Napa Valley Sangiovese that they really didn't enjoy it, they just thought they did, but in fact if they TRULY thought that was excellent . . .well, they obviously have the palate of an iguana! WTF?!?!?!?!? People like what they like. It's their palate, not yours, not mine. >>> . . . I tried a Sangiovese from Italy the other night and it didn't taste anything like the one I had from California. I hope not . . . <<< I hope not, too! The climate, the soil, the viticultural practices, the winemaking techniques -- all these (and more!) are DIFFERENT. And just as a Chianti Classico doesn't taste like a Chianti Rufina or Chianti Colli Senesi -- let alone a Brunello di Montalcino, neither does a Tuscan Sangiovese taste the same as a Sangiovese from Umbria or Romagna . . . The same is true when one compares Cabernet Franc from the Loire Valley to that grown in Bordeaux, let alone here in California, in Long Island, Italy, Hungary or elsewhere; or Cabernet Sauvignon grown in Bordeaux, the Languedoc, Tuscany, Napa Valley, Santa Barbara Co., Washington State, Australia, Israel or Argentina! >>> I think that with Italian Varietals you need to grow them only in Italy where they are supposed to be grown. <<< So Italian grapes should only be grown in Italy? How does one define an "Italian" grape? Is it origin? Is it traditional plantings? Do they have a passport? Just curious . . . Cheers, Jason Fri Jan 18 16:04:24 -0800 2008 3307425 28122 zin1953 3 3310678 It's so true about Sangiovese grown in different regions of Italy. Recently, I've been lucky enough to find several wonderful examples from Le Marche. Why is it a crime that California Sangiovese tastes different than Tuscan model? Wouldn’t the question be whether or not it is good wine and fun to try? My only observation is that California Sangiovese has way more oak, like most CA Wines. Fri Jan 18 20:02:42 -0800 2008 3310078 14128 BN1 2 4480407 Yes, and I've had Sangiovese from Italy that tasted like grape Kool-Aid mixed with toilet water. I don't think its fair to say that all California Sangiovese is not as good as all Italian Sangiovese. I've had several California Sangiovese that far and away exceeded some of the Italian swill that is imported under that varietal name. I will concede that Antinori is my favorite Italian Sangiovese. But when I say I had a good California Sangiovese, it isn't anyone's place to say "no, you didn't". I also agree with the other post that indicates that all varietals shouldn't be limited to the places where they're most known for. I had a Carmenere that came from Chile. I wouldn't drink that again if I were paid to. I've had very good syrah that came from Paso Robles. So let's not limit the U.S. to concord grape wine. Ok...?! Fri Mar 06 13:23:51 -0800 2009 3307425 255205 tgw_slo 1 4601088 Paso still has a few vineyards growing some incredible sangiovese.........I don't think they have it right now but "iniquus cellars" will be releasing a sangiovese they sourced from Ranchita Vineyards in Paso. I barrel tasted this stuff and WOW, definitely worth checking out when it get released. I think you can find them at iniquuscellars.com or myspace.com/iniquuscellars. Thu Apr 16 08:59:24 -0700 2009 2561726 283176 aurum6 1 4602218 you might like this one, also from Chateau Margene in Creston/Paso: 2006 Cielo Rosso Cielo Rosso (Heavenly Red) A Super Tuscan style blend made up of 73% Sangiovese and 27% Cabernet Sauvignon. Ruby color with aromas of dried fruit, black cherry, raspberry and spice. Well balanced through the mid palette with a lingering finish. Cielo Rosso will age beautifully over the next 6-8 years. 538 cases produced $44 Thu Apr 16 13:44:31 -0700 2009 2561726 132857 dockhl 1 4616719 I recently picked up Kris Curran's sangiovese, but I haven't opened it yet. Anyone tried it? Tue Apr 21 18:34:36 -0700 2009 2561726 28030 AlabasterDisaster 1 4778339 Niner produces a great Sangiovese. Their tasting room opens at the end of 2009. This 2006 Sangiovese is big and complex, boasting a broad mix of fruit and spice/herb flavors. Blackberry and black cherry are the most prominent fruit flavors in the glass. Spice, licorice and fennel balance the fruit nicely, while white chocolate and cocoa fill the mid palate. All of this is brought together by a rich crème fraiche mouthfeel and a juicy, mouthwatering acidity. Tue Jun 16 11:52:37 -0700 2009 2561726 1084161 newton9 1 4783688 I believe Opolo used to do a fairly decent Sangiovese in Paso. I also used to like the Luna that others mentioned. Jeez, some of you folks are pretty cranky and limiting about who should grow what and drink what where. I manage a wine shop and our motto is: "if it tastes good it is." Thu Jun 18 05:14:39 -0700 2009 2561726 40895 Shooley