400385 Thu May 10 14:23:58 -0700 2007 94 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 2559305 Yes, my title is an overstatement. But not by much. But I read, with much anguish and drooling, about the various masalas of Maharashtra, each an intricate blend of home-ground spices, and the fabled biryanis of Hyderabad.... and I think of the Indian restaurants of Queens, all catering to a predominantly Indian clientele come to town to shop on that crowded 74th street of Indian boutiques... all of them offering steam tables of indifferent food prepared that morning or the day before using cheap store-bought curry powder. Over the years, one or two restaurants opened presenting food head and shoulders above the steam-table crowd, and all closed within a year. I spent a year in India long ago and never had a good meal, except in a Desi Chinese dive in Varanasi. (Rawalpindi had some good restaurants, but that's Pakistan.) I'm sure there's great food being served on the subcontinent... but all of it in private homes, behind closed doors. Yes, there are a few good restaurants here and there... maybe on Devon Ave in Chicago, or perhaps in Manhattan, catering mostly to non-Indians. But compare this to Chinese restaurants; there should be so many more. Why aren't they? Thu May 10 14:23:58 -0700 2007 11362 Brian S 1 2559331 All of this is dependent upon your own definitions of crummy, good, indifferent, etc. The reailtiy is, most restaurants of any sort are not putting out anything special in terms of food. Most restaurants use relatively cheap, mass-produced ingredients. Most restaurants fail. Indian restaurants don't seem to me to be any different than most any other cuisine you might name. There are many that I'd agree have indifferently prepared food, but this is true of Chinese restaurants and Pizza joints and burger joints, too. Most Chinese restaurants serve Americanized versions of dishes laden with think sauces that aren't representative of what is made and eaten in China. Much of Pizza one can get (think standard delivery fare) is greasy, loaded with tons of cheese, sweet tomato sauce and toppings; not the lovingly made crust and minimal toppings that is what many people think of as an ideal pizza. So, in short, I think the story you're telling applies to food and restaurants generally, not only to Indian cuisine. Here in San Francisco, there are many many Indian restaurants. Not as many as there are Chinese restaurants, but lots nonetheless. The quality, generally, holds with the quality of most restaurants in town with a few standouts doing sublime work to the mostly middling places with one or two good dishes to the horrific, how can anyone eat this stuff places. Thu May 10 14:30:30 -0700 2007 2559305 80141 ccbweb 2 2559364 Yes, but post about Chinese food, or pizza, on our New York board, and I will recommend some stellar places, and so will a thousand other hounds. But what inspired me to do this post was a recent post (the latest of many)searching great Indian food without a single good recommendation. http://www.chowhound.com/topics/398704 see also http://www.chowhound.com/topics/247368 Thu May 10 14:37:43 -0700 2007 2559331 11362 Brian S 3 2559404 At the risk of horrendous mocking, I checked out Zagat's ratings which are not the be-all, end-all of good restaurant recs, but there are about a dozen Indian restaurants in Manhattan that rate a 23 or above for food. Zagat isn't always dead on, but they're not usually horribly off either. That said, there is only one Indian restaurant in the Times that gets more than two stars (though two stars is still "very good") and the Times describes it as "an American restaurant with an Indian twist." There isn't a Chinese restaurant that gets more than 2 stars from the Times. I'll be curious to hear why (if, as I suspect, there really isn't that great a difference in overall food quality in Indian restaurants versus Chinese restaraunts) people don't have their favorites that they recommend often. Because you're entirely right, ask people about Chinese or Pizza and there will be fierce debates about what is better (sometimes, people will even offer reasons why they think one is better than another!). Thu May 10 14:49:16 -0700 2007 2559364 80141 ccbweb 2 2559905 I am no expert on Indian food nor have I eaten at all the joints in SF. Not by a long shot. But I have never had anything "sublime." Please do tell which restaurants over on the SF board. I am dying to try them. (I am being serious, not sarcastic...tone is so hard on the Internet.) That said, I have 2 unrelated Indian friends that are in the biz (NOT Indian restos) and they know food. And both have said there isn't a single Indian resto in SF that comes even close to their mothers' cooking. So maybe what Brian said about private vs. public cooking has some merit. Thu May 10 17:35:19 -0700 2007 2559331 10896 chaddict 3 2559924 I'll check out whether any of the places I'm thinking about have threads going on the SF board. I also don't have the comparison of a mother's cooking on this one. No one has ever made a meat loaf or smothered pork chops like my mom's, but other than that :) Thu May 10 17:41:38 -0700 2007 2559905 80141 ccbweb 4 2561312 An interesting point. If your mom is indeed a very good cook, you probably WON'T find traditional Southern U.S. dishes to equal hers in a restaurant. Certainly not in NYC, and not even in Tulsa, which has some excellent restaurants serving stuff like that. Tellingly, they call it "home cooking" and the best of it is served in private homes. Just like India. Fri May 11 08:28:37 -0700 2007 2559924 11362 Brian S 1 2559462 One word: demand. Or the lack of... When there are clients ready to spend $$$ on something better, something better will show up. It happens in many ways. Somebody opens a great restaurant and hopes for clients - often, the public at large doesn't have any idea what "great" is, or how "great" is better than "adequate" or than "American-[fill in the blank]", and they stay away in droves and the place dies. Sometimes a wonderful hole-in-the-wall eatery caters to ethnic clients and is "discovered" by a wider public. That happens a lot around here (Washington DC area). Or, as happened with "authentic Sichuan," a star chef attracts a lot of buzz, and even if he leaves the trend takes on a life of its own. The bottom line: until you have a "critical mass" of enough ethnic diners who know enough to keep alive a restaurant with better cooking, you may not get a better place in your area. Thu May 10 15:09:12 -0700 2007 2559305 14479 wayne keyser 2 2559516 "The bottom line: until you have a "critical mass" of enough ethnic diners who know enough to keep alive a restaurant with better cooking, you may not get a better place in your area." That is key.... I am not afraid to admit that I like Panda Express... and when I have craving for "Chinese" Food I don't hesitate to eat there or P.F. Chang's... and that is because I don't know enough about the cuisine to differntiate... or motivated enough to go seek out its finer examples. I know it sucks and it is limiting.. but its also human. I am sure some of you are think... Nopal is so backward! Likewise when I see CHers rave about burritos or quesadillas etc., I can't help but cringe, roll my eyes and think what dumb %^&s. But its human... people all have different cuisines they are intrigued by and willing to spend big dollars versus a small price tag & convenience. I guess for most Americans... the $5.95 two choices with Naan is as much as they are willing to invest in Indian cuisine. Personally, I think of Indian, Moroccan & Ethiopian far more often when I want to eat a good meal out than I think of French or Italian etc.... and would much rather spend big dollars on those (if they were available) than on French or Italian... but asi es la vida. Of course my first priority is to eat really good Mexican cuisine yet there isn't that much to choose from. Hell, Michoacan is the state the exports most of the immigrants to California... yet there is not a single Mexican place here that dishes a multi course identifyingly Michoacan meal anywhere. As a matter of fact I don't think there is a single Michoacanian restaurant I can think of (that serves mostly Michoacan regional specialties including spirits (Charanda), Fruit Liquors etc.,).... people just don't want to invest enough in Mexican cuisine to understand it deeper... Margaritas & Guacamole is as far as most want to go etc., I know alot of people that run Mexican restaurants... they aren't bad people, they aren't mediocre... some of them even cook incredible meals at home... but its an easy biz they do... sell alot of margaritas, nuked antojitos in a combination and you can make a living while others who try to educate the public go bankrupt all the time. Thu May 10 15:25:05 -0700 2007 2559462 42572 Eat_Nopal 3 2559651 In New York, the Mexican restaurants I go to, even the one with the incredible entrees, is filled mostly with lonely young guys far from home (mostly from Puebla), who only order beer and maybe some tacos and just want to flirt with the pretty girls. All those restaurants take care to hire pretty waitresses. In short, they are mostly not in search of the best food, though they probably do want a taste of home. Thu May 10 16:14:01 -0700 2007 2559516 11362 Brian S 3 2560061 Would this place in Grants Pass Oregon, which advertises a Comida Corrida qualify as good multi-course Mexican? http://www.tacosburritosandmore.com/menu.html From this page http://www.eskimo.com/~sockeye/Mexican.html I get the impression that El Paso is the only place in the USA where Corida Corrida ('businessman's lunch special) is common, apparently influenced by nearby Juárez. paulj Thu May 10 18:38:07 -0700 2007 2559516 12139 paulj 4 2560086 It depends on execution... but I could bet an Awakatl that Tacos, Burritos and More would have a have a hard time staying open in Mexico City. Whats a good multi-course Mexican meal? Well they run the gamut from the low end Fonda Comida Corrida to the Alta Cocina Menu de Degustacion... and they can be good or not so good depending on execution. Thu May 10 18:49:51 -0700 2007 2560061 42572 Eat_Nopal 5 2560127 While I've had a number of nice multi course meals at nice places in Ecuador (with the full rank of utensils), my only experience with Mexican multi course meals was on a budget trip to Zacatecas. Our main meal was the lunch time comida corrida, depending on the panaderia (bakery) for the other meals. However I don't recall any of the comida dishes, except for a steak with a too-hot red salsa topping. The other food highlight of that trip was field lunch with some oil company workers, cucumbers and tomatoes with fresh squeezed lime and salt. paulj Thu May 10 19:04:34 -0700 2007 2560086 12139 paulj 3 2759092 Im not familiar with the cuisine of Michoacan, but being from southern Arizona I grew up eating and loving Sonoran Mexican food. There aren't as many good Sonoran restaurants around as there used to be, either. I think it's the Generalization of Mexican food and the proliferation of Taco Bell as the gold standard (God help us all). I thought I was fairly indifferent to Indian food until an Indian doc from work made me some, the difference between the food she made and what I'd had in restaurants was just unbelievable. I suddenly knew why people liked Indian food so much! Why isn't it like that in restaurants? I think Eat Nopal has summed it up in his last sentence. "some of them even cook incredible meals at home... but its an easy biz they do... sell alot of margaritas, nuked antojitos in a combination and you can make a living while others who try to educate the public go bankrupt all the time". Tue Jul 17 16:53:48 -0700 2007 2559516 105625 EWSflash 2 2559562 But the original poster here is talking about pretty much the reverse phenomenon: a primarily Indian neighborhood, like 74th St. in Jackson Heights Queens, where the dining population is overwhelmingly Indian. But the general consensus is that there isn't a single stellar Indian restaurant amongst the dozens in the area. In fact, most are mediocre and many are downright bad. The "critical mass" is certainly there, but if anything the restaurant scene has gotten worse, not better. As the original poster indicated, the few really good restaurants that have opened in the area have either gone out of business rather quickly, or have declined sharply into the same sort of cheapy buffet places, using the same ingredients, as all the other neighborhood places. The sole partial exception is a restaurant near, but not in, this same area that gets a lot of attention on these boards, Spicy Mina - and they aren't doing a lot of business. This is something that is very strange, and somewhat maddening, to those of us who live in the area. And the formula is followed by most NYC area Indian restaurants, despite a sizable South Asian community. Thu May 10 15:40:17 -0700 2007 2559462 13481 Woodside Al 3 2559569 Is it cultural? (I'm asking seriously.) I'm not so familiar with Indian culture to know the answer here, but it occurs to me that perhaps restaurants and going out to eat just aren't a major part of people's lives. Perhaps eating at home is simply more important or more "normal." Thu May 10 15:42:13 -0700 2007 2559562 80141 ccbweb 4 2559663 That is my theory. It's not a restaurant culture. And also, strict Hindus must make sure the chef isn't of a lower caste than he is. Perhaps this will change. Like every other group, many Indians are part of relatively affluent families where both parents have full-time jobs. They can't expect one spouse to spend twelve hours simmering that dum biryani. Thu May 10 16:18:33 -0700 2007 2559569 11362 Brian S 5 2559689 This is an interesting article I came across on NPR. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6682127 I also remember, but can't find at the moment, a simliar piece in the SF Chronicle that discussed "underground" food service operations. What both stories have in common is that what Indian immigrants are looking for is home cooked food, or as close to it as they can get, not restaurant food. As you note, caste issues will complicate the question even more. Thu May 10 16:25:35 -0700 2007 2559663 80141 ccbweb 5 2559773 I know many "strict Hindus" who eat at Indian restaurants and I'm almost positive that none of them have bothered to inquire on what caste the cook is. That's a thing of the past. Thu May 10 16:51:44 -0700 2007 2559663 12384 boogiebaby 6 2559844 Amen! Thanks for pointing that out - it was bothering me as well, but I forgot to address it in my response. :) Thu May 10 17:15:00 -0700 2007 2559773 16109 sweetTooth 6 2559848 Amen! Thanks for clarifying that. That generalization was bothering me as well, but I forgot to mention in my long response. Thu May 10 17:16:47 -0700 2007 2559773 16109 sweetTooth 7 2561373 Usually I hate being wrong, but in this case if I'm wrong I'm glad. I got what I said from the post quoted by Woodside Al below, and also from my experience living in a remote village in northern Bihar over 25 years ago. Fri May 11 08:44:53 -0700 2007 2559848 11362 Brian S 8 2569443 Yup, remote village in Bihar 25 years ago explains it. Rawalpindi is a city from what I understand, so you could compare it's culinary offerings to say Lucknow or Agra or Gwalior. Mon May 14 16:30:46 -0700 2007 2561373 16109 sweetTooth 5 2559819 Yes and no. Traditionally, eating out was for those who couldn't cook themselves - bachelors, people in vocations that kept them on the move, or when travelling. That said, things changed even with my parents' generation (I'm am a thirtysomething). As a middle class family, we ate out a few times a month. Some times at sit-down restaurants, sometimes at roadside carts (chaat, samosas etc) and sometimes at cafes (dosa, uttapam, filter coffee). Each had it's own ambience. A sit down had dim lighting, linen, finger bowls at the end of the meal and instrumental music in the background. The roadside carts would often be next to a ripe smelling drain/canal. The cafes would be brightly lit, full of college students drinking endless cups of tea or coffee and chain smoking. Also there are plenty of delicacies that are simply not made at home because of the skill/labor involved. So I am pretty satisfied with the restaurant scene in India as far as getting good food is concerned and a little shocked that over a year's stay in India you only found one that was good. My only criticism is that there aren't or weren't much non-Indian food choices outside of the major cities like Delhi or Bombay. Other than Indian Chinese, which is technically very Indian. Perhaps you'd care to elaborate what was dis-satisfying about the restaurants in India. I agree with most other people that the quality of Indian food available here has a lot to do with demand. There are plenty of restaurants serving fine regional Gujarati cuisine in Artesia and South Indian in the SF Bay Area. After all, there aren't as many ethnic Indians in the US as ethnic Chinese. Maharashtrian cuisine? I just don't see the market for it here. BTW, even in India there aren't too many restaurants outside of Maharashtra that serve it's cuisine, nor Goan restaurants outside of Goa that serve it's cuisine, nor Assamese, Bengali, Oriya, and so on outside those respective states or regions-of-influence. (When I say cuisine, I don't mean snacks or sweets - there is a fair amount of dispersion of those.) So even in India, the only regional cuisines that are prominent outside of their native or neighboring states are Punjabi/generic North Indian and Udipi/generic South Indian. I think you're drawing conclusions from the wrong figure. What you should be comparing is the percentage of good restaurants among each ethnicity - what percentage of all Indian restaurants are good versus what percentage of all Chinese restaurants are good. Thu May 10 17:07:01 -0700 2007 2559663 16109 sweetTooth 6 2568464 there's a place near San Francisco that has Maharastrian. they do it once a month... which is a great way to serve regional dishes withough making the commitment of having them on the regular menu. http://www.chowhound.com/topics/401203 Mon May 14 11:47:40 -0700 2007 2559819 11362 Brian S 7 2569439 Thanks so much for posting that link Brian! I am jonesing for Puran Poli and Shrikhand now. Well, atleast Shrikhand should be easy to accomplish. Mon May 14 16:27:53 -0700 2007 2568464 16109 sweetTooth 4 2624053 It is largely cultural. My bengali mother would never take us out for food that she could make at home - it wouldn't be to our family's taste, we would most likely be paying a 300% mark up, and the food would most likely be WAY greasier than what is cooked at home. The only things we will order out for are the dishes that are time/energy consuming to make like biryani or sweets and this is usually done (in my family at least) only for large dinner parties. Sat Jun 02 16:27:59 -0700 2007 2559569 43515 adrienne156 4 4013995 most of the desi's in NY i know eat indian at home and that is exactly what they don;t want when they go out Sat Sep 06 16:56:13 -0700 2008 2559569 135229 thew 3 2560203 In the case of Mina's, I know many folks who have refused to try the place out simply based on their opinion that the restaurant looks like a dive and seems dirty. Thu May 10 19:36:32 -0700 2007 2559562 18155 sandrina 1 2559764 I'm Indian. That being said, I cook Indian food at home. If I go to an indian restaurant, I don't want homestyle Indian food -- I want something different. I don't want to pay $9-10 for something I can easily make at home for $1.50. I want to have dishes that are either time consuming for me to make at home, or something unusual that I wouldn't make at home for whatever reason. I find it hard to believe that in one year in India, you "never had a good meal". Between the hotel fine dining restaurants, regular restaurants that locals frequent and the street vendors serving snacks and sweets, there are so many great things to eat. Maybe you are expecting too much from the cuisine? As for restaurants in the US, most of them are tailored to non-Indians because most indians won't pay for food they can make at home. Like the other poster said, it's like Panda Express -- you know it's not authentic home style food, but it's still good in its own way. Thu May 10 16:49:32 -0700 2007 2559305 12384 boogiebaby 2 2559782 Have you ever eaten Indian in the UK? I've lived in the UK and the Balti in Birmingham was OUTSTANDING! Even the take out from Marks & Spencer's was great. I've had some pretty good Indian in Toronto, and once when visiting at Brown University years ago, a school with a highly alternative reputation. But for good Indian=UK, not US. Thu May 10 16:55:46 -0700 2007 2559764 95065 veganish 3 2561397 There was one restaurant in Queens that served meat quickly stir-fried with fresh herbs, home-ground spices and vegetables on a tawa (or tava, which is like a big wok) It was incredible... but it went out of business in a year. I think that is like Balti style. Balti style originated in Birmingham, England... but I believe the tawa is an authentic Indian implement. Fri May 11 08:54:06 -0700 2007 2559782 11362 Brian S 3 4014640 Yep, for obvious (colonial) reasons, there are lots of Indian restaurants in the UK, and a British Indian style of cooking has evolved. There are four or five decent Indian restaurants within a couple of miles of my home for example, and several high-end places with Michelin stars in the West End. I've never bothered eating Indian food in America, because coming from the UK I don't see the point. I'd rather eat good Mexican, which is very hard to find here. Sun Sep 07 01:37:29 -0700 2008 2559782 110146 greedygirl 2 2559838 Heartily agree with the part about not wanting to pay $$ for homestyle. Thu May 10 17:13:32 -0700 2007 2559764 16109 sweetTooth 2 2561384 The year spent in India was over 25 years ago, so it is possible things have changed. It's also possible I didn't go to the right places, though I tried. Fri May 11 08:47:30 -0700 2007 2559764 11362 Brian S 3 2562401 Things have changed a lot in India in just the past 5 years, let alone in the past 25. I bet if you went now you'd find lots of great restaurants. 25 years ago India, especially in Bihar (one of the more rural states in India) probbably didn't have much to offer in the way of restaurant food. I live in So. CA and I'm sure 25 years ago people didn't eat out as much so the choices were limited. Now we have thousands of restaurants to choose from, many with memorable food. Fri May 11 13:23:03 -0700 2007 2561384 12384 boogiebaby 1 2559864 I lived abroad for 5 years - 4 in London and 1 in Sydney. Prior to this I'd only eaten Indian food in New Jersey and didn't like it at all. I've been back from London for 7 months and I'm desperately trying to find restaurants in New Jersey and NYC that come close to the food I've eaten abroad. It's been very hard to come by. I feel that most ethnic cuisine served in the US are the fast food, dumbed down versions of their true selves. It's definitely that way with Chinese food. You really need to get good recommendations from people that really know the food and culture. I love spicy food but I've yet to find a vindaloo that comes close to the versions I've had overseas. From the various articles I've read and the numerous cookbooks I own, all that I can ascertain is that true Indian food takes time to prepare and stew. Perhaps the restaurants I've tried use alot of shortcuts to make the business prosperous. I feel for you because I'm in the same boat. Thu May 10 17:20:49 -0700 2007 2559305 97706 dealop 1 2559897 On this thread "Life-Changing Indian Food" http://www.chowhound.com/topics/391698 from just a little less than a month ago, which addressed the issue of Indian food in the South Asian areas of Queens, missmasala wrote an interesting reply to a comment of mine that was unfortunately deleted. Here is an excerpt from her post: "When I'm in India visiting my family, a lot of the food I eat in restaurants is mediocre, and certainly not nearly as good as I would get in my family's home. why? several things come to mind. One, women cook at home, and, in general, men cook in restaurants (i don't think it's coincidence that people like mina, where a woman cooks.) secondly, I don't think that Indians have the same restaurant culture that SEasians and chinese have. For many devout hindus, there are all sorts of caste issues that come into play about which restaurant you could or could not eat in, depending on who is doing the cooking. Also, the South Asian community here is newer than the community in London, so perhaps they have not had time to develop that restaurant culture in New York's Hindu community. I also find that the things Indians would eat out in India (ie. chaat, south indian snacks like dosa/iddly, tandoori stuff at high-end places) can be found in decent quality here, tho strangely, the best purveyors aren't in JH. Also, many westerners are looking for a kind of Indian food that only exists in punjabi places and punjabi households, and I'm not sure this new wave of Indian immigrants is as punjabi heavy as the older ones were. Many Indians (and I admit I am generalizing from those I know) like to eat their own regional food and are reluctant to go out for other stuff, whether because of caste issues (is a brahmin cooking that food?) meat-eating/veg issues (perhaps they can only eat in a pure-veg place) or just plain taste issues (my maharastrian family, if eating out, usually has to go to gujurati restaurants in bombay, and my aunt always complains because she doesn't like it as much as her own food. But to most westerners, the differences are often subtle at best.)" Thu May 10 17:31:46 -0700 2007 2559305 13481 Woodside Al 2 2560078 The tiffen box system of Mumbai is indicative of this Indian preference for home cooked meals over restaurant ones. paulj Thu May 10 18:45:33 -0700 2007 2559897 12139 paulj 3 2769890 There is no question that the best food I ate in India was in private homes, not restaurants...and that is true of Indian food here in the US as well. I think the caste/religious issues you mention do play a part in that. To me the interesting thing is that my husband has trouble getting even his relatives to cook his favorite Indian meals. When we go to his brother's house, we know we will have a wonderful meal, because my SIL is the best cook I know. Nonetheless, there are certain dishes he always craves (kitcheree with kadhi is one) that he practically has to beg her to make. She feels that dish is too "homey"; too plain to serve to guests (even if they are relatives). She feels embarrassed to serve it, as it is something she might make only for her immediate family on a Sunday afternoon. Same with dal dhokli. Both of these are basically one-dish meals, and to my SIL any guest (even a relative) should be served a full Gujarati thali meal. Nothing wrong with that, but its frustrating to my husband who wants simpler food sometimes..... Fri Jul 20 22:29:31 -0700 2007 2560078 10290 janetofreno 4 2770006 > I think the caste/religious issues you mention do play a part in that. > i really dont think that is true [i am an indian/hindu btw]. for example, many members of my family will not eat beef, but even in my parent's generation, i dont know anybody who keeps a brahmin cook. now two-three generations up, maybe a different story. but i agree and have said myself "i dont think india is really a restaurant going culture". i also think this is changing. >re: kichuree embarassment ... > that is really funny. this is one of those situations where people out of some sense of obligation do something that is suboptimal for both parties. although i can understand the embarassment. wouldnt you consider it a little funny if you invited people over for a fine china and formal dining table type dinner and served them a big bowl of sphagetti and meatballs and some french bread? [that was the best analogy to kitchuree i could think of]. it's hard to explain the "rainy sunday afternoon" resonsnace of that dish]. say you you'ld been living in china for year and you went to your SIL's house and asked her just to make a good hamburger for dinner and she said "come on, be serious" ... burger, coke and potato salad can certainly be a fine meal for a backyeard bbq ... but might be kinda funny for an 8pm sitdown dinner with the Limoges. Sat Jul 21 00:46:39 -0700 2007 2769890 16770 psb 5 2770547 LOL: "rainy Sunday Afternoon resonance of that dish"...that is EXACTLY when my husband craves Dal Doklhi..on rainy Sunday afternoons!!! The funny thing to me is that my SIL is pretty casual: usually when we eat at her house its outside (if its winter; they live in Orlando. Too hot to eat outside in summer...of course, I try not to visit her in summer :-). And I don't think she OWNS limoge. Meals at her house are served on metal thalis; except breakfast which is plastic plates. Yet still she balks at serving one-dish meals.... My husband can sometimes get these types of meals IF we've been staying there awhile and its the fourth or fifth day and we're starting to feel more like part of the family and not guests. But he practically has to beg....and sometimes he plays sneaky and pretends not to like whatever she was planning to cook that day. (SIL: " I thought I'd make a __________ sak today" DH: "I don't like ____. " SIL: "How about _____?" DH: "No, I don't think Janet would like that. I know, why don't you just make kitchuree?") It IS hard to explain unless you've been through it, huh? Sat Jul 21 10:02:10 -0700 2007 2770006 10290 janetofreno 1 2560178 I just got back from London and there I had Indian food (again) such as I cannot find in Boston. A place near me had simply the best tandoori dishes I have ever had, and the sad, red-dyed, dried out chicken legs sold here in the States just are not even close. Also, the spicing in the UK is not as toned down as it is here, so you can expect your Vindaloo to burn. So, yes, the Indian restaurants near me fall short, though they do serve tasty foods. I am lucky to have some Indian groceries in my neighborhood and they encourage and help me to make the real stuff at home. But this all reminds me of the Chinese food situation here, a decade ago, one could only find American or "Cantonese" restaurants, even in Chinatown, but now (mostly outside of Chinatown) we are seeing authentic Sichuan and Shanghainese and other regional styles being well prepared, mainly catering to the demands of the immigrant community but also gladly serving chowhounds. Hopefully the same will eventually occur with Indian, though it may be a better idea to travel there and learn how to make the real thing at home. I tried to male the tandoori meats myself last weekend, and they were not as good, those chefs in the UK are very deft with their spices. Thu May 10 19:23:21 -0700 2007 2559305 25417 Zatan 1 2561064 In an interview I read, Madhur Jaffrey said the best Indian food is found in Indian homes, she never eats in restaurants. This is also the opinion of an Indian couple I know. They refuse to eat Indian food anywhere but at home and in the homes of friends. I love the food and make it frequently at home. I'm surprised at the difference in taste between my own amateur efforts and that of restaurant food which is definitely inferior. About all we eat at restaurants now are dishes made in the tandoor oven which can't be replicated in most homes. Chinese cuisine has always had an equivalent to French haute cuisine. There are some banquet dishes few home cooks will attempt. I don't know if there's a similar parallel in Indian cooking. Fri May 11 07:11:22 -0700 2007 2559305 12335 cheryl_h 2 2561325 Although she is a consultant to Dawat in Manhattan, which is the best Indian food I've eaten in a restaurant. Fri May 11 08:33:19 -0700 2007 2561064 75002 Megiac 1 2561606 as for Queens, try Dosa Diner in Jackson Heights. Only place I've had good Indian food in Queens. Also, I like Utsav's on 46th st. Not everything is great, but it's pretty good, it's in a nice atmosphere (views of off-time square). it's sort a not-too upscale Indian date place. i recommend the biryani, appetizers, or vegetarian entrees. Fri May 11 09:58:48 -0700 2007 2559305 11190 fara 1 2568710 Why do so many posters presume that Indian = Hindu? Maybe in the states, which has an "Indian" population comprising less than 1% of the country's population and where "Indian" food is largely unknown and exotic. But in Canada, which generally has much better Indian restos than does the US (speaking of cities here), "Indian" is almost always Punjabi (meaning Sikh, meaning beef on the menu and lots of it) or, in Calgary at least, Ismaili Muslim (and more beef). I cannpt think of a single "Hindu" owned Indian resto here and we have dozens of Indian restos. Anyway, Brian, go to Toronto for good Indian. Mon May 14 12:55:33 -0700 2007 2559305 12135 John Manzo 2 2569082 I heard on the radio (the Splendid Table interview with Madhur Jaffrey, I think) that much of the restaurant scene in New Delhi, has its origin with Punjab refugees, with their tandoori cooking (March 17 episode, about 20 minutes in). She also talks about meals for an extended family of 40 people. That size of group is not going to eat at restaurants very often. paulj Mon May 14 14:32:39 -0700 2007 2568710 12139 paulj 3 2569479 Madhur Jaffrey grew up in a different India - she's a grandmother now. Extended families of 40 people are hard to come by in urban India these days. She is right about tandoor cooking having come from Punjab. Delhi is and was predominantly Punjabi anyway, I'm sure even before partition took place and refugees came in. Villages in Punjab used to (and probably still do) have communal tandoors that the women would take their dough to, and cook their naan/tandoori roti in every evening. Even in the urban town/city I grew up in, when mom was unwell and we kids were too young, we could take our dough to a roadside eatery around the corner and have them cook thick, crisp tandoori rotis for us. Dad made an awesome egg curry to go with it. The sheer size and heat output of a tandoor mandates it's use in a kitchen that dishes out a lot of food. Mon May 14 16:41:55 -0700 2007 2569082 16109 sweetTooth 2 2569438 Almost any city of any size in the U.S. has some South Asian population, and will have several South Asian restaurants. Many, if not most, of the Indian restaurants in NYC (including the much-discussed Spicy Mina) are run by Bengalis, who are primarily Muslim. Many other restaurants here are run by Punjabis or Muslims from southern India. But they almost never serve beef, since Hindus would then not eat there and they would lose business (most of the southern Indian restaurants are vegetarian and thus avoid the whole issue). This is certainly the case in India itself, where beef is never served by anyone (buffalo maybe, but never cow). To do so would most likely invite violence. In any event, I'm not really sure what the type of meat available has to do with the overall quality issue, especially since most Americans aren't going to an Indian restaurant with any expectation of eating beef dishes anyway. Mon May 14 16:27:48 -0700 2007 2568710 13481 Woodside Al 3 2572305 Bengalis are not primarily Muslim. Bangladeshis are usually Muslim. Bengali culture is shared equally by the mostly Hindu Indian Bengalis and the mostly Muslim Bangladeshi Bengalis. I don't think your information that most restaurants in the US are run by Muslims is correct. Most are run by Punjabis, Gujaratis and now increasingly South Indians mostly because those are the communities most immigrants are from. I don't think any of these populations in the US are predominantly Muslim. I do agree with your comment that the type of meat available can't have much to do with quality of food. Tue May 15 15:21:07 -0700 2007 2569438 16109 sweetTooth 4 2574374 I'm talking only about New York City here. I really don't know the situation in the rest of the country. And many many Indian restaurants in NYC - including most of the smaller places - are run by Muslims from Bangladesh or nearby parts of India. In fact, one of the most often heard complaints about Indian cuisine in NYC is that a lot of it is northern Indian food poorly prepared by Bangladeshis who don't really know how to cook those styles properly and/or take a lot of cheap shortcuts. But that is not to say that all such places are necessarily bad, since, as I state above, one of the most lauded South Asian restaurants on this board, Spicy Mina in Woodside Queens, is run by Bengalis and bills itself right on its awning as "Bangladeshee Cuisine." Wed May 16 10:01:47 -0700 2007 2572305 13481 Woodside Al 5 2574529 Bengalis are from the state of Bengal, in India. Bangladeshis are from the country of Bangladesh. Wed May 16 10:47:58 -0700 2007 2574374 12384 boogiebaby 6 2574801 But however they are geopolitically divided they are the same ethnicity and speak the same language. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_people Wed May 16 11:52:54 -0700 2007 2574529 13481 Woodside Al 6 2619922 No, we are all Bengalis period. However, there are Indian Bengalis and there are Bangladeshi Bengalis. Fri Jun 01 06:24:33 -0700 2007 2574529 42101 anthead 7 2624028 I agree with Anthead. I'm not Bangladeshi as I was born and raised in the States. I am however, half Bengali. That being said, Woodside Al is right. Most of the "Indian" restaurants in the US are either Northern/Punjabi or specifically South Indian. Jackson Heights does have a large Bangladeshi population and the number of Bangladeshi restaurants there is fairly uncommon in the rest of the US. Sat Jun 02 16:16:38 -0700 2007 2619922 43515 adrienne156 6 2759996 Mr. Boogiebaby, "bangladesh" is literally "land of the bengals" in the Bengali language, in fact "bangal" is a word in bengali referring specifically to somebody from east bengal [now bangladesh]. Bangladeshi: nationality Bengali: ethnicity [e.g. Kurds can be turkish or iraqi], unified by language, not religion. In fact a good way to start a (mostly) friendly argument among Bengalis is to proffer an opinion about the superiority of East vs West [or technically "ghoti vs bangal"] cuisine, sweets etc. See e.g. http://www.telegraphindia.com/1050428/asp/calcutta/story_4598426.asp I've done a lot of speculating on CH about the "somewhat lamentable state of indian restaurants here" ... the explanations can range from immigration patterns, to low margins for quality and ingredients [high quality vegetables here are $$$ ... you arent going to get chez pannisse level veggies in your $6.95 entree]. I think the main effect of the demand is not "there is no demand for good india food" but there is a lot of demand for the "standard repertoire" [saag paneer, chicken tikka masala, dosas, begun bharta etc] and no exposure to the "long tail" of indian cooking. [BTW, (east) bangal cooking is actually better :-)] Wed Jul 18 01:49:44 -0700 2007 2574529 16770 psb 7 2762306 I'm actually Ms. Boogiebaby. :) I stand corrected. I had a Bengali friend growing up and my definition was based on what she had told me. But I do understand your post. It's like Punjabi cooking -- there are Pakistani punjabis and Indian punjabis and the cooking styles are different. Wed Jul 18 15:12:51 -0700 2007 2759996 12384 boogiebaby 1 2572087 With more than a couple of years (spread over several years) in India, Nepal, Pakistan, Myanmar, and Bhutan; I agree that oddly enough it seems difficult to encounter great restaraunts in the sub-continent. My favorites are: a) Tandoor style restaraunts in India and Myanmar serving the lower and "backwards" castes, b) simple meals prepared in remote villages by farm families, and c) highway restaurants in Pakistan. Food served in our partner agricultural research insitutes was usually better than that found in restaraunts. My last trip to Delhi was somewhat disappointing foodwise. In other countries I would give high marks to London and moderate to Kampala. Tue May 15 14:09:29 -0700 2007 2559305 36661 Sam Fujisaka 2 2572582 I put "backward" in quotes because my Indian colleagues used the word much to my bemusement. You're right about diversity: an old Indian colleague once said, everything you're ever thought about India is true...and its opposite". We worked with farmers of all castes and the landless--and the diffferences in remote rural areas are quite maintained. As to the restaurants I enjoyed (such as in Orissa), again my Indian colleagues warned me away saying that such places were for the lower castes. My fellow diners never included the more affluent, the well dressed, the English speaking. Singlets, wrap arounds, and flip-flops for men; bright synthetic fabric saris and no gold but many plastic bangles for women--the few that were ever present. Bench seating. As an agricultural anthropologist I inevitably got into converstations (translated to and from Telegu or Oriya in the work in eastern India I'm fondly thinking about by colleagues) with other diners spanning from class and caste to food. Such animated converstations were also a reason I enjoyed the food so much--dining experiences far different from eating in a posh restaraunt in Delhi. Regarding the Indian restaurant disappointments: here at home I roast, toast, grind, and mix my spices. My naan and pappadams are from scratch. I prepare and serve food, coordinating my "curry" bases with the dish, cooking times, and service. I do what I've learned in the homes of the rural poor in India and Nepal, but with less oil. If I had a tandoor oven, I would make that type of food--simple, hot, fresh, and healthy! Restaurants in urban India and outside of India serve me food that I often feel was cooked ahead of time with prepared spices (one size fits all dishes) and often with overcooked vegetables and too much oil. I've never been able to get that heavenly taste of a fresh tandoori roti from rural Orissa! A dough ball thrown sidehand onto the interior of the tandoor oven wall like a pro-softball pitcher, spreading by itself, emerging as the world's best bread, bar none. Tue May 15 16:51:37 -0700 2007 2572377 36661 Sam Fujisaka 3 2572792 Heh heh. They removed my post with the ranting. Ok, so looks like you were in rural parts and your colleagues did specifically categorize those restaurants as catering to lower castes. I'd say your colleagues biases definitely colored their labeling and their proscription. Very likely they did not want to eat at those establishments and more importantly "be seen eating at *that* kind of joint". I stand corrected. Regarding disappointments - I understand what you're getting at now. I think what does those urban restaurants in, is the jack-of-all-trades-is-king-of-none syndrome. I bet that those Tandoori style places in rural India (we call them dhaaba in Hindi), weren't serving a dozen different curry base variations each for veggies, chicken and mutton. Their menu probably offered three curries of the day, a daal or two, rice, roti, pickles and a plate of onions and tomatoes. Plus, their clientele was not likely to change much being the working man on the street who needs a source of nourishing food. In the cities though, restaurants want to serve every curry they've heard of everyday. They also want some chinese and snack like stuff on the menu. Their clientele is not as reliable as it has much more choice and chooses to eat at a certain place depending on what suits their fancy. With that kind of business model, food quality is bound to suffer. To find good food in the city, you need word of mouth recommendations for particular spots worth hitting and ones to stay away from. Sigh. I know what you mean about that heavenly tandoori roti fresh from the oven. I've also never had egg bhurji (Indian style scrambled eggs) as good as from a dhaaba. Those chickens running around on the trash heap sure lay some tasty eggs! Tue May 15 18:03:18 -0700 2007 2572582 16109 sweetTooth 4 2573002 sT, yes, yes, yes-- you and I have to go eat together at a dhaabi--simple delicious food from the tandoor, a curried vegetable and daal, some acharas, and the beautiful roti and meats from the tandoor--heaven!!! You can introduce me to to bhurji made from trash heap chicken eggs. In Cuttack there was a white Brahma cow that was always seated out front. My Oz friend grew to like her. Tue May 15 19:20:55 -0700 2007 2572792 36661 Sam Fujisaka 5 2573945 You guys are making me hungry. Thanks a lot! Wed May 16 08:07:31 -0700 2007 2573002 17481 QueenB 5 2575369 Heh. Alright, I'm buying my tickets for India! :P Wed May 16 13:57:48 -0700 2007 2573002 16109 sweetTooth 4 2574539 Is this the part where I can brag that we have a tandoor at home? Well, actually my parent's house. We imported it from India. We make fresh tandoori naan and meats almost every weekend! :) Wed May 16 10:50:47 -0700 2007 2572792 12384 boogiebaby 5 2574935 It certainly is! I'm green with envy. I'm thinking of building one at a new house we're constructing. Wed May 16 12:27:38 -0700 2007 2574539 36661 Sam Fujisaka 6 3398023 Curious about your intended tandoor. did you make it? Could you post about it? Thu Feb 14 12:46:32 -0800 2008 2574935 43747 Leucadian 3 2619940 No kidding! Tandoori roti from rural Orissa? Are you sure you were in Orissa and not in Punjab? Most folks in rural Orissa have never seen a tandoor - in fact they probably haven't even heard of one. Most probably you ate at a Punjabi run dhaba on the national highways that runs through Orissa. Orissa's food mixes elements of Bengali and Andhra cuisine. Lots of freshwater and sea fish, rice, and seasonal vegetables. It is fantastic food, but perhaps not really what you ate. I'm curious, what part of Orissa were you based in? Fri Jun 01 06:28:45 -0700 2007 2572582 42101 anthead 4 2624472 In my personal experience, tandoor ovens and cooking certainly extend from Cuttack and Bubaneshwar in eastern India through Calcutta and into Burma. In Orissa we were everywhere rice is grown--covers a lot of territory. Where they came from originally, I don't know. I've worked a lot in the Punjab, however, where I didn't encounter tandoor cooked foods. Sat Jun 02 19:59:57 -0700 2007 2619940 36661 Sam Fujisaka 4 2629948 anthead, I take that back: I've eaten tandoor cooked foods like chicken in the Punjab that were then further elaborated in curries. Great. And of course more Moghul than farther east. Just a personal preference, however: I like the tandoor meats and roti just as they come out of the oven--more common in eastern India and points even further east. Mon Jun 04 19:40:59 -0700 2007 2619940 36661 Sam Fujisaka 3 2634062 Late to this thread here, sorry! But your post inspired me. I would love it if you'd post some of those recipes for naan, pappadams, and "curry" bases on Home Cooking! Wed Jun 06 02:38:30 -0700 2007 2572582 14139 Kagey 3 2768878 Indeed, the Jackson Heights restaurants do mostly seem to cook using frozen spinach, other pre-prepared ingredients, and to re-heat things. I second the recommendations here for Dosa Diner and Spicy Mina's. I also recommend takeout curries at Kebab King -- it's very down home, not at all fancy, but very carefully homemade. Pakistani comfort food. Try the beef, peas, vegetable somosas, any pureed green dish, and the sweets. Fri Jul 20 14:14:18 -0700 2007 2572582 43257 KateC. 4 2768988 P.S. At Kebab King, they make the roti to order in the tandoori ovens right in front of you behind the counter. There are guys sitting there throwing bread dough around all night. However, I'm not going to claim their roti is superior, merely good. Also, of course, the three restaurants I mentioned are all vastly different: Hindu vegetarian, Bangladeshi, and Pakistani Muslim. Fri Jul 20 14:51:35 -0700 2007 2768878 43257 KateC. 2 2572557 Kampala? I was there in 1977 and worked upcountry in 1980 and you'd be lucky to get matoke. Tue May 15 16:43:12 -0700 2007 2572087 11362 Brian S 3 2573256 I don't know. I like rural food from eastern Uganda and western Kenya, but didn't find much better in Kampala in the late-80s to late-90s than some of the quite good Indian restaurants. Tue May 15 21:39:28 -0700 2007 2572557 36661 Sam Fujisaka 3 2573915 I love the Indian restaurants in Kampala, from the high end places like Haandi to the thali joints in Old Kampala. A lot of Asians have come back in recent years with skills and business sense learned in the cities of Europe, Canada and the US. The service and food at most of the Indian places in Kampala was far superior to anything else. Plus I love the fact that I could get a filling thali for 4000/= with a refreshing, spicy salt lassi and tamarind water. I also quite like some Ugandan food. Matoke not so much, but luwombo, grilled pork, nsenene, boiled peanuts, groundnut anything and that brown, sticky paste made from millet the western Ugandans love so much. Wed May 16 07:58:53 -0700 2007 2572557 27000 Hoosierland 1 2625989 Thank you all for keeping this interesting discussion going. Something I thought of today: if there is a site like Chowhound in Mumbai or Delhi, someone might well be posting right now, "millions of Americans visit India and tens of thousands live here, so why can't you find a good American restaurant in Delhi? All we have is McDonald's and Pizza Hut!" Sun Jun 03 15:36:04 -0700 2007 2559305 11362 Brian S 2 2716685 Actuallly there are a couple of fairly good American restaurants in Delhi and other Indian Metros. Have you ever been to Gurgaon, Vasant Vihar or South Ex area of Delhi? They've got Ruby Tuesday, TGIF etc there. Even Connaught Place area should have a few. Link http://www.gurgaonshoppingmalls.com/pubs-n-bars.php Tue Jul 03 11:32:23 -0700 2007 2625989 109436 maniche 1 2758413 Dear Brian, Well no issues in having a frank discussion. True Indian food is strongly typeset to the indian palate. It can be very spicy, made from local ingredients that you need to grow up with. I think!. For example both north and south indian dishes can be is very spicy and probably have only local appeal. I personally dig both but especially south indian. Many of my american friends do not care for it. Which is fine. Really the curry, biryani and tikka that India is known for is not true indian food. Indian cuisine is primarily vegetarian. I notice in your blurb that nowhere do you mention that you actually like indian or this that dish. Maybe you just don't like indian and haven't found any you liked because it is not out there....:) Tue Jul 17 13:35:01 -0700 2007 2559305 112438 animesh372 2 2759032 Oh I'd like it if I could find it. When I said "the glory of Indian cuisine" I meant it. Tue Jul 17 16:30:48 -0700 2007 2758413 11362 Brian S 2 2761793 How is curry and biryani not true indian food?! That statement is completely false. Wed Jul 18 13:12:43 -0700 2007 2758413 43515 adrienne156 2 4013961 Animesh, the idea that biryani and tandoor items are not "true Indian" dishes is ridiculous. Spoken like a true dravidian purist. Sat Sep 06 16:36:07 -0700 2008 2758413 148999 owhosane 1 2760153 Interesting. I spent a couple of months in Bangalore. I dreaded it, as I really was not impressed by the Indian food I had in the US. Most of my experience was in family-run places with buffet tables. I was absolutely amazed when I got to India. I think the key difference is cooking to order vs. cooking for a buffet. The buffet always seems sort of...leaden. Even when you order from the menu, places that are buffet-centric seem to have slower turnover, and the food tastes like it was just waiting to be heated up. Wed Jul 18 05:57:33 -0700 2007 2559305 18069 Westy 2 2768771 I've had a similar experience with Indian here. The Indian buffets are targeted towards those who have little experience with the cuisine. They are always minimally spicy, to the point of being downright mild, and it seems as though they leave some of the ingredients out. Yet when you get take-out from the same place, you usually get at least a decent product, if not a very good one. Fri Jul 20 13:41:12 -0700 2007 2760153 105609 tvdxer 3 2770008 this might be kind of a stupid/bizarre question, but i havent been to an indian buffet [except at somebody's house, at a wedding etc] ... do they have meat dishes there? if so, how do they keep somebody from picking out all the meat in one of the meat-in-gravy dishes? i dont see how a buffet including meat would be viable if you can either pay $7.95 for a chicken or lamb-in-sauce type dish [chicken makhani, CTM, rogan josh etc] for like 5 pieces of meat, or you can pay $10, for "all you can eat" meat. at $20, i imagine it would work out, but not at the prices i've seen for the lunchtime buffets. or do they only have the cheep dishes [dal, veg etc]. ok tnx. Sat Jul 21 00:53:25 -0700 2007 2768771 16770 psb 4 2778891 Sure, they have meat. I think most people take a little of everything because that is what is yummy, but you can take whatever you want. Tue Jul 24 11:21:37 -0700 2007 2770008 43257 KateC. 4 2780612 I've been to maybe two other than at weddings or someone's house and it is exactly what keeps you from loading up there - other people are watching. Tue Jul 24 22:42:42 -0700 2007 2770008 43515 adrienne156 5 2780748 Of course part of the post-wedding/bowbhat activity is gossiping is about "Can you believe Uncle X ate 10 pieces of fish and then asked for a to-go plate" and "Cousin Y's office colleague (and future diabetic) ate 32 rosogollas" [I am not making those up]. I guess I'll have to try to make it to the half-price buffet and Khanna Peena or that place on Fillmore up the street from the Kabuki. ok tnx. Wed Jul 25 00:35:13 -0700 2007 2780612 16770 psb 6 2782407 After eating 32 rosogollas, how can you not expect to get diabetes?! I guess the Khana Peena buffet is worth trying if only to see what you can get for $4.95 and the coworkers really do rave about it... What place on Filmore? Wed Jul 25 11:40:19 -0700 2007 2780748 43515 adrienne156 7 2783943 >32 rosogollas > i dunno ... i dont really like rosogollas ... and i dont think the bengalis have evolved a rosogolla-tolerance gene yet. now switching to gulab jam, re: Fillmore ... http://www.chowhound.com/topics/383739 Wed Jul 25 18:59:24 -0700 2007 2782407 16770 psb 8 2786402 There is 5 cups of sugar to 3 cups of water in your standard mishti syrup. Gulab jam - now that's the one mishti that I can make really well (I stuff em with ground pistacios and sultanas before I fry them), so we didn't buy them much, but I can tell you that whoever supplies Milan makes the worst ones by far. Here's a question - why are Indian sweets so popular if the ones that are most commonly found taste terrible? Thu Jul 26 12:38:28 -0700 2007 2783943 43515 adrienne156 9 2786959 They are traditional holiday gifts. Also I like them. Thu Jul 26 14:47:24 -0700 2007 2786402 11362 Brian S 10 2787012 Right, but the ones you usually get in stores aren't any where near what they're supposed to taste like. The gulab jam for example are usually dense and somewhat dry, more bread-like than anything, and they are actually supposed to be soft and slightly spongy. New Yorkers probably have better access to decent sweets than the rest of us. The best mishti doi I've had outside of South Asia was definitely in Jackson Heights. Thu Jul 26 15:04:12 -0700 2007 2786959 43515 adrienne156 11 2787270 I think many people have low standards for sweet things. i.e. asparagas has to be good quality or "tarted up" with oil/butter/fat for people to find it an hard to resist temptation ... but many people will eat a lot of so-so ice cream, so-so cookies or cake or donuts, so-so chocolate, soda ... or so-so mishti. i dont think i'd go so far as to say the store bought stuff is inedible, but sure, it's maybe like comparing fake syrup with real syrup on your pancakes. some non-indian friend i turned on to shon papri got really into those and that's their one request when i ask "do you want anything from india". i personally generally dont like the super sweet stuff [in syrup/"rosh"] and prefer less sweet, milk-based things. although there are definitely exceptions like good pantua/gulab jams. i wonder if the commercial/resto problem is they dont soak them long enough ... i have gotten some that are dry inside. although who can resist good hot jilipis. i think the closest i came to Instant Diabetes was from eat a large amount of mehidana ... it was pretty disgusting in retrospect ... have you seen mehidana here? i've found a lot of non-indians seem to like shon papri ... which these days you can get decent versions of here, so no longer a "special delivery" you have to hand carry back from india. Thu Jul 26 16:13:26 -0700 2007 2787012 16770 psb 12 2789247 Freshness is everything with the milk-based sweets. Fri Jul 27 10:29:17 -0700 2007 2787270 43257 KateC.