395869 Thu Apr 26 18:32:52 -0700 2007 15 34 Wine 0 2519266 I always thought that kir must be made with creme de cassis. I was sitting at the bar in one of the most upmarket restaurants in my area and saw them making kir royale with chambord? Is that kosher? Thu Apr 26 18:32:53 -0700 2007 26542 suse 1 2519336 My understanding is that a Kir is made with white wine and the cheaper Cassis, and a Kir Royale with Champagne and Chambord. That's how I made them when I was a bartender. Thu Apr 26 19:00:39 -0700 2007 2519266 76025 mojoeater 1 2519414 The original kir was Bourgogne Aligoté with a dash of crème de cassis to take the edge off the sharp white wine. The original kir royal was champagne with a dash of crème de cassis. The use of Chambord is a recent innovation popular above all in North America. "Young American bartenders are increasingly (and mistakenly) using Chambord when one orders a Kir Royal, so it is important to specify that you want it with crème de cassis." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kir_(cocktail) Thu Apr 26 19:36:21 -0700 2007 2519266 10520 carswell 2 2519435 thanks. I suspected as much. I had a kir royale at a traditional old school restaurant in france last summer and they definitely used creme de cassis. good to know that i need to specify. Thu Apr 26 19:46:22 -0700 2007 2519414 26542 suse 2 3723818 I've read a few articles where people recommend using Pinot Grigio if you can't find an Aligoté. Anyone who knows their wine want to weigh in on that one? I'm curious to know if it's a good substitution! I've always had Kir as white wine + creme de cassis and Kir Royale as champagne + creme de cassis. Also, I've never had trouble finding creme de cassis here in the states. Perhaps I happen to live near good liquor stores. Pour the cassis in over the back of a spoon if you want to keep the liquids separate (that's how I've always had it in France, anyway). Tue May 27 10:13:46 -0700 2008 2519414 183643 sfumato 1 2519427 A Kir is made with white wine and creme de cassis and a kir royale is made with champagne and creme de cassis. If they're using Chamboard, they're gilding the lily. I've had a Kir Royale with Chambord, in Montreal, actually, and it was $27. I almost shrieked when I saw the bar tab. Thu Apr 26 19:41:47 -0700 2007 2519266 83766 brendastarlet 2 2519531 Our cassis was $5 crapola, so I think people preferred the Chambord. Very rarely got orders for it anyway. Thu Apr 26 20:20:07 -0700 2007 2519427 76025 mojoeater 1 2522263 It's not always easy to find creme de cassis liqueur in the U.S. Chambord seems like a better substitute than non-alcoholic cassis syrup. Fri Apr 27 17:31:02 -0700 2007 2519266 11369 Robert Lauriston 2 2523299 depending on the market, perhaps, but there is plenty of very good cassis imported into the states. unfortunately younger bar managers don't bother to stock it, and/or might just have a crap bottle of hiram walker or some such. Sat Apr 28 09:20:56 -0700 2007 2522263 30273 hotoynoodle 2 3719315 <It's not always easy to find creme de cassis liqueur in the U.S> I disagree. I think it's pretty widely available in liquor stores, but many bars fail to stock it, and often those who do don't know the difference between the plonk and the good stuff. Sun May 25 10:22:27 -0700 2008 2522263 52499 ChefJune 1 2526224 If they're putting Chambord in it, it's not kir. Doesn't sound bad, but it's a different drink. Sun Apr 29 18:46:26 -0700 2007 2519266 22450 Chris Weber 2 3719186 No, it's still a Kir. It's just not technically a Kir Royale. A Kir with any raspberry liqueur, including the most popular one for this drink, Chambord, should technically be called a Kir Imperial. Sun May 25 08:57:29 -0700 2008 2526224 194936 jolostudio 3 3723829 I'm curious as to why it's still a Kir- creme de cassis is made with black currants, not raspberries, so it seems like something altogether different. Does a Kir really mean the wine + any fruit liqueur (not being snarky- I am honestly curious)? I thought, perhaps mistakenly, that it had to be made specifically with black currant liqueur. ETA: I checked out Wikipedia, and if you want to believe the article (I know some people are skeptical of Wikipedia articles), I was definitely mistaken! Apparently you can have all kinds of kir cocktails: * Kir Royal - made with Champagne * Kir Pétillant - made with sparkling wine * Cardinal - made with red wine instead of white * Kir Imperial - made with raspberry liqueur instead of cassis, and Champagne * Kir Normand - made with Normandy cider instead of wine. * Kir Breton - made with Breton cider instead of wine. * Cidre Royal - made with cider instead of wine, with a measure of calvados added. * Hibiscus Royal - made with sparkling wine, peach liqueur, raspberry liqueur, and an edible hibiscus flower. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kir_%28cocktail%29 You learn something every day, eh?! Tue May 27 10:16:00 -0700 2008 3719186 183643 sfumato 4 3735564 Well, if you're going to trust Wikipedia, you probably want to go with its French article for this one. It says: Kir is always made by mixing 1/3 crème de cassis de Dijon (20°) exclusively with 2/3 Bourgogne aligoté. If another white wine is used, it is no longer a kir [...] I think the insistence on Bourgogne aligoté is pushing it a bit, but certainly if you were to order a kir or a kir royal here in France and you got something that wasn't cassis, you'd protest. Which is not to say that the word "kir" isn't used in a metaphorical sense to refer to other combinations, but think of a martini. If you were to ask for "a martini" in the US and you didn't get some combination of gin and vermouth, you'd send it back. Which is not to say that you might not order "a vodka martini" or even "an apple martini" without changing the meaning of the non-modified version. And just a note on what you quoted from the English article: * Cardinal - made with red wine instead of white Yikes, that's only called a Cardinal if you're a right-winger. On the left it's called a Communard. It doesn't have a name without political overtones -- so just FYI. Fri May 30 14:52:27 -0700 2008 3723829 177724 tmso 5 3736019 Love it! This is fascinating stuff. I do like my kir the old fashioned way, though, in the end. Fri May 30 17:53:37 -0700 2008 3735564 183643 sfumato 1 3719734 Kir is made with crème de cassis and Bougogne Aligoté. The name comes from the former mayor of Dijon, Chanoine (canon) Féix Kir, mayor of Dijon after WW2. He didn't invent the drink, he made it popular. It is a lot sweeter in Burgundy than in the US, very ofyen 1/3 cassis for 2/3 wine and NO lemon peel. Sun May 25 14:29:02 -0700 2008 2519266 59907 froggio 1 3720516 I had a "Kir Royale" at a restaurant that made it using Pommery Champagne and Creme de Mure (blackberry liquer). When the waitress brought the glasses to the table it smelled like she was carrying a bouquet of flowers. It was delicious (and expensive). Sun May 25 23:00:53 -0700 2008 2519266 13143 souschef