389416 Sat Apr 07 16:29:20 -0700 2007 46 41 Cookware 0 2459786 My girlfriend and I took a cooking course today and we used a particular knife (7" Santoku). I usually use a cooks knife but when I tried the Santoku, I was amazed how light and balanced it was and how easily I diced and chopped things up. Now I want to buy one for home use. What I'd like to know is where in Toronto can I get one? What brand is good? I'm willing to pay good money for one that'll last long. Also, I'd like to get one of those sharpening "sticks/rods" (steel I believe they're called). What is good or what should I look for? How long should it be? Thanks Sat Apr 07 16:29:20 -0700 2007 89606 tcc 1 2459977 Tap Phong on Spadina sells the Global Santoku for $99--something of a bargain unless someone knows of better deals elsewhere. Global, MAC, Kershaw/Shun are decent brands. Sat Apr 07 17:44:29 -0700 2007 2459786 16382 Kagemusha 1 2459989 a Santoku is a style/shape of knife that has become popular, with many brandsnames making them. You can spend big bucks on one, and have a expensive knife that you are afraid to use, or you can shop around, and pick up a mid priced one to see how much you like it. In all things, it is how it fits you. Pick up and try a knife, inthe store before you invest any kinds of $$$. Sat Apr 07 17:51:19 -0700 2007 2459786 61669 Quine 1 2459999 Personally I don't like the santoku shape, but I think you would find one in almost every home kitchen in Japan. Agree with Kagemusha, you can't go wrong with those brands. Never ever use a steel, Japanese knives need to be honed on special water stones. You should be able to get one where they sell the knives. Sat Apr 07 17:58:31 -0700 2007 2459786 27532 steamer 1 2460195 I would go for a Shun santoku, particularly the Elite. A few months ago, I decided that I would buy some good knives and use them constantly. It was definitely worth the investment. A steel straightens the edge of the knife. It's good for maintaining an edge, but after a certain point can't sharpen a dull edge. Sat Apr 07 19:45:27 -0700 2007 2459786 44835 jkt 2 2460480 Thanks everyone for the advice. Global seems like the best bang for the buck but how does it fair to say Shun, MAC, Henckels, or Wusthof? Re: Steel, if you're not suppose to use it on this type of knife, then why did our instructor in the cooking class teach us how to use one? Sat Apr 07 23:49:32 -0700 2007 2460195 89606 tcc 3 2460557 Your cooking instructor is Japanese and he used a steel on a Japanese knife? Sun Apr 08 01:30:22 -0700 2007 2460480 27532 steamer 4 2460763 The theory behind not using a honing rod on Japanese knives is that the steel used it typically much harder. The harder the steel, the less the edge will deform (bend over sideways). A honing rod is used to straighten out that deformation, as jkt mentioned. A thin hard edge will more likely chip than bend over when subjected to stress. And depending on the relative hardness of the honing rod vs. the knife, using that rod is more likely going to chip the blade or do nothing at all. I’m not sure where the demarcation line is between a blade that is soft enough for a honing rod to be effective and hard enough for it to be useless, but that’s the theory, anyway. I don’t own a honing steel, so maybe some of the Hattori/Ryusen, Global, Shun, etc. owners (and especially the Hattori KD owners) can chime in on whether honing actually does anything perceptible. --------------------------- OP: “….I tried the Santoku, I was amazed how light and balanced it was and how easily I diced and chopped things up.” The characteristics you describe here can also be found on other knife patterns, including chef knives. So when you go to the knife shop to try out some Japanese-made santokus like the MACs, Globals, or Shuns, try out the chef knife versions just for comparison. Check out the link for some info on the basic characteristics of Japanese knives. http://www.danslacuisine.com/danslacuisine.cfm/Japanese-Knives/Articles-Blogs-And-Feedback/ -------------------------------------- Here’s a quiz: which knife in the attached image is heavier? The 300mm/11.7” or the 165mm/6.4”? Hint: The 300mm handle is made of Dupont corian. Sun Apr 08 07:30:16 -0700 2007 2460557 17653 a priori 3 2460673 You have to try for yourself. I used a Global and really liked it over the cheap ($50 and under) Henkels santoku I'd been using. It was light as a feather and razor sharp. However, I then gave the Shun Elite a try and loved it even more. The size and shape of the handle is easier to grab, and there's a little groove/notch where I can rest my pointer finger where the blade meets the handle. The blade itself is a little thicker than the Global, but the weight isn't a bad thing. Theoretically, a perfect knife for me would have a Shun handle and a Global blade, but I'd be thrilled with either. I hone it daily with a ceramic stick, and have it professionally sharpened maybe twice a year. What brand did you use in class? Sun Apr 08 06:15:57 -0700 2007 2460480 11577 Pei 4 2460850 I don't know all that much about these santoku's except that I much prefer the gyutou shape. Before I came to my senses I was a professional chef in Japan and I can assure you that there is no such thing as using a steel on a Japanese knife. The blades are sharpened to such a thin edge that a steel will just put dings in it. Sun Apr 08 08:24:03 -0700 2007 2460673 27532 steamer 5 2461282 I love my MAC. I love the way it is weighted and how it feels in my hand. That is why I chose it. I would choose a knife primarily on good steel and then on how it feels in your hand. I would however not buy a Japanese knife from a German company it just seems wrong. If you go with MAC remember to only use a ceramic "steel" and if you go with Shun remember that it is folded steel and that when it needs professional sharpening it needs someone who knows Shun or they will ruin your knife. Sun Apr 08 11:39:39 -0700 2007 2460850 86233 applejuice 1 2461804 For fun, check out www.japanesechefsknife.com. On the far west end, Mika's Japanese Gifts in Mississauga has trad. Japanese kitchen blades and the proper Japanese whetstones, too. Sun Apr 08 16:32:46 -0700 2007 2459786 16382 Kagemusha 2 2462027 @steamer: the instructor was not Japanese but the knives they had for the class included a Santoku. We were cooking Italian food. She said that everytime you were to begin cooking/cutting, you should use the steel. @pei: We used a 7" Santoku by Calphalon @applejuice: How do you determine what is good steel for a knife? @kagemusha: thanks Sun Apr 08 18:40:13 -0700 2007 2461804 89606 tcc 3 2464718 Not to seem too simplistic here, but since you loved teh knife you used in class, why not buy that one?? Calphalon makes a good mid-range knife, you already know you liked it. And since it is a starter knife for you, no real harm done to an expensive knife while you are learing to use it and a steel. After a while, you will decide if you wish to move upward, learn more and graduate to a higher end knife. But do know, that many of us Hounds have these sorta knives in our collections, and we reach for them time and time again. Mon Apr 09 15:10:57 -0700 2007 2462027 61669 Quine 1 2464603 if you like your knife to be light weight, check out the Macs; Shuns are heavier (I have both). It's largely a matter of feel, though, so try before you buy. For honing, use a ceramic rod. Sur de table have told me specifically not to hone the Mac or Shun much at all, for like 6 months. The Germans (wusthoff, henckels) on the other hand, need honing every time you use them. Once you figure out which ones you like, see what you can get on ebay. Also, Forschner makes a Santoku, though I haven't tried it. Mon Apr 09 14:37:43 -0700 2007 2459786 74192 chuckl 2 2464708 Did you hear that from one person at Sur La Table, or several? I got my Shun at Sur La Table. I was going back and forth to a lot of places, so I was there several times and asked about honing each time. I had three people tell me to use the ceramic stick regularly. I asked again when I took my knife in for sharpening at Ross Cutlery, one of the most respected places in Los Angeles. He also told me that I should use my ceramic stick regularly to keep the edge sharp, and to bring it in as soon as the edge wasn't coming back after a few swipes with the stick. Mon Apr 09 15:08:23 -0700 2007 2464603 11577 Pei 3 2464778 Do any Shun owners notice any improvement in sharpness after honing? Mon Apr 09 15:29:07 -0700 2007 2464708 17653 a priori 3 2468444 I heard from a couple people at Sur that Alton on FoodTV, who's apparently a big Shun fan (they make one called Alton angle, so maybe they're paying him) said he hadn't sharpened or honed his in like 6 months. One of the people at Sur told me a similar story about a professional chef he knows. Tue Apr 10 16:16:55 -0700 2007 2464708 74192 chuckl 2 2464723 Well, I bit the bullet and picked up a MAC today. I tried all the ones that I was interested in (global, shun/kasumi, wusthof, and mac). Out of all of them, it was between the MAC and global. I liked how light global felt but the handle was kinda funky feeling. But the MAC felt better and I was told is more durable and will last longer in terms of edge. I also got the sharpener that they recommended but they said only to use it when I feel that it's not cutting like it used to, which they said is almost like every couple of months. Mon Apr 09 15:13:48 -0700 2007 2464603 89606 tcc 3 2464874 Congrats on the MAC. I bought the Fiskars ceramic sharpener instead of the stick because I am clumsy and I would drop a ceramic stick on the ground for sure. I used about once a month when I first bought the knife last year and now i use it about once a week. Careful though. I loved my santoku so much that I hated even touching my old Henkel and when it came time for me to quit my job at the kitchen store I worked at I used half of my last pay check to get a nice MAC chefs knife. I love the edge on them. Mon Apr 09 16:13:04 -0700 2007 2464723 86233 applejuice 4 2465309 I just finished admiring it :D and washed it so I can start using it. Put it in a knife protector and back in the box. But I'm afraid to use it cuz it's sooooo nice :P I too got the Fiskars sharpener as recommended by the sales person. I wanted something that was fool proof. Is there a certain side you put the knife in the sharpener or it doesn't matter? The sales lady said to move the knife back and forth about 20-30 times and the first sharpening probably won't be for at least a few weeks to a few months. Mon Apr 09 19:05:47 -0700 2007 2464874 89606 tcc 5 2465444 I'm really wondering about this knife. Is it sharpened on both sides like a regular western knife, or is it sharpened like a chisel on only one side? I guess the santoku shape is considered a sort of western knife in Japan but It still seems like sacrilege to use a steel or fiskars sharpener on a decent Japanese blade. When I was a pro and going through cases of vegies etc, I sharpened my gyutou knife once a day on a red water stone and the honed it on a fine white one and I was good to go. My fish debabocho just needed a sharpening once a week. I'm working on a Japanese knife book now that I hope to have out in a year or so, it will show how to sharpen your own knife, a vital skill, and I guess I will have a famous Japanese chef explain why they do not use a steel on their knives. Mon Apr 09 20:07:08 -0700 2007 2465309 27532 steamer 6 2465801 A santoku is sharpened on both sides. Mon Apr 09 23:10:34 -0700 2007 2465444 11577 Pei 7 2465880 Thanks Pei, maybe that, and the kind of steel it is made out of allows for use of a sharpening steel. I believe it is more of a home cooking knife in Japan at least I never saw one in a restaurant kitchen here. Tue Apr 10 00:09:58 -0700 2007 2465801 27532 steamer 5 2466994 Ack! Not back and forth! Pull the knife through the sharpener, never push it. I pull it through about 4 or 5 times. 20 to 30 seems excessive. I position the sharpener so the long end is in my left hand and I pull the knife through with my right. How do I know. The MAC rep told me so. Tue Apr 10 10:10:20 -0700 2007 2465309 86233 applejuice 3 2471591 Congratulations on your purchase. Should you be in the market for another Santoku (so you can let someone help you in the kitchen ;) ) then I would strongly suggest you look for Forschner brand. Light yet sturdy, holds it's edge for a long time before needing 1 or 2 strokes on the sharpening steel and that is with daily use. Wed Apr 11 13:58:47 -0700 2007 2464723 20522 gourmanda 1 2467879 It seems to me there is a fair bit of confusion / blending of terms. The actual composition of the steel used by Global and other Japanese makers is of a higher Rockwell Hardness than that used by the German, French or American knife makers. The harder steel of the those knifes requires different care. Typically this means that when the knife is sharpened one must consider that harden steel requires a harden stone. When it comes to the use of a "butcher's steel" it is NOT sharpening the knife, nor it it honing the knife. It is aligning the cutting edge. THAT IT ALL. No metal is removed from the knife by a butcher's steel, it merely "unrolls" (on tiny nearly microscopic level) the MINOR misalignments that happen to the edge of a knife as it contacts hard objects in the process of cutting. Remember "hard" is a relative term too, as plenty of vegetables and fibers (like paper) are hard enough to cause such deformations. A whetstone sharpens knifes by removing metal and exposing a new edge. Any honing process does the SAME thing. Whether this is done with a ceramic/diamond stick hone, a "croc stick", a Chefs Choice sharpener or a giant grinder the basic action is the same. Of course the aggressiveness of the stone will determine both how much metal is removed and how smooth the knife is after each pass, and common sense would dictate that the less metal is removed the longer the knife will be usable. A "tri-hone" is often used so that stones of three levels of aggressiveness/smoothness are used to progressively polish the edge. Finally I do not believe anyone has addressed the issue of the angles to which Japanese knifes are edged. Due in part to the extra hardness of the steel, Japanese knifes can maintain a "steeper edge" (smaller numeric angle) than typical Western kitchen knives, which makes use of a butcher's steel both less necessary and more difficult. Additional consideration should also be given to the profile of the edge as one moves back from the very edge to the flat of the knife. The Chefs Choice sharpeners try to incorporate the varying profile into the sharpening process, as do jigs like the Lansky sharpener. http://www.lansky.com/Instructions.pdf http://www.chefschoice.com/page2d_sharp.html I can not emphasis strongly enough how much of a difference use of a good butcher's steel (F.Dick )!!! will make in maintaining a usable edge on typical German or American cutlery. For the best discussion of the factors effecting sharpness of edges this is an excellent resource: http://www.holleyknives.com/faq.html What sort Fiskars sharpener was recommended??? EVERYTHING I was able to find on the web from Fiskars has an angle more suited to an AXE!?! I would be VERY VERY VERY skeptical... Tue Apr 10 13:38:12 -0700 2007 2459786 87093 renov8r 2 2468148 MAC actually recommends the Fiskars and it is distributed in Canada by them. I have had mine for a year now and no problems. Tue Apr 10 14:44:50 -0700 2007 2467879 86233 applejuice 3 2468205 While I do not doubt you that the Canadian distributor is recommending the Fiskars device I do not feel that that device (unless it is significantly different than the device marketed in the US) is the optimal way to maintain an edge on such a knife. The basic problem is that the angle is far too wide - almost double what it should be. In fact it is so far off from what Japanese style knives should be finished to that I almost think the distributor MUST have gotten a different device. The 30 degree angle is such that the sharpener might not even contact the actual factory edge, but instead is riding on the ridge between the edge and the flat of the blade... My curiosity is really piqued now -- do you have on any links to the device you have??? Tue Apr 10 14:59:28 -0700 2007 2468148 87093 renov8r 4 2469203 I will look for a link. MAC actually distributes this particular Fiskars and the packaging of the sharpener has the MAC logo on it. Tue Apr 10 20:30:30 -0700 2007 2468205 86233 applejuice 4 2469206 http://www.macknife.ca/lowband/sharpeners.html as requested I don't know if it is the best way but it is certainly the easiest way. Tue Apr 10 20:32:30 -0700 2007 2468205 86233 applejuice 4 2469966 Yepper, and I bet google would have worked for you to find it as well. Wed Apr 11 07:19:01 -0700 2007 2468205 61669 Quine 5 2471145 Sure seems like the same "roll sharp" device that shows up the Fiskars site -- http://www.fiskars.com/US/Garden/Cutting+Tools/Axes/Product+Detail1ac5html.html Notice the 30 degree angle -- I admit I'm more than a bit picky, though I would think that anyone who has quality cutlery would care more about maintaining a edge must closer to it factory finish. Easy? Undoubtedly. Recommended by the importer? Shameful. Now I know that the reality of the marketplace means that if Global markets a crappy little plastic-bodied ceramic-wheeled doohicky then if MAC doesn't MAC is "giving away sales", but I would feel a whole lot better if the MAC folks instead showed some integrity. They should market a MAC version of the nice Minosharp system from Global -- http://www.cooking.com/products/shprodde.asp?SKU=303631 You should NOT be using any kind of sharpener more than weekly in a home kitchen and the tiny bit of extra time it takes to use the Minosharp will reward with a FAR superior edge. I'd go so far to say that the "it's SO easy" mindset of the Fiskars device will actually encourage folks to use the damned thing more frequently than they should. If I were a hard boiled cynic I'd say this is their intention -- to get purchasers to wear-away their knives on an accelerated schedule of too wide re-sharpening... Wed Apr 11 12:09:38 -0700 2007 2469966 87093 renov8r 6 2471847 Wouldn't a 30 degree angle overall be 15 degrees on each side - aproximately correct for most Japanese knives with a double-bevel? Not that I'm saying this is a good product - I have no experience with it, and haven't had the greatest luck with sharpening "gizmos" in general. But depending on how you read that, the angle could be aproximately correct. Wed Apr 11 15:05:38 -0700 2007 2471145 59830 will47 6 2472629 Must agree with renov8r. The minosharp is the kind of thing you need to sharpen a knife. The little jig thing will help you keep the angle if you can't do that by eye. In Japan there are a lot of options for whetstones ranging from hideously expensive natural stones that fit a certain kind of steel to small cheap composite stones for home use. There is no reason to have your knife professionally sharpened (unless you have screwed up the blade). I keep my home knives razor sharp with by honing them on a cheap composite stone once a month. I'd take the advice of these factory reps with a massive grain of salt. If you own a good knife you ought to take some pride in it and learn to treat it well. Wed Apr 11 19:02:26 -0700 2007 2471145 27532 steamer 7 2473038 Does anyone know the approx. angle the MAC santoku blade is? Can you use the above sharpening stone from Global on the MACs? Wed Apr 11 21:38:32 -0700 2007 2472629 89606 tcc 8 2473059 MAC has a similar product in the sharpening section on their website. Wed Apr 11 21:45:12 -0700 2007 2473038 86233 applejuice 9 2473090 Are you referring to the ss-1? If so, it doesn't have a guide rail to maintain the correct angle. I'd hate to screw up my knife by putting the blade at the wrong angle. Wed Apr 11 22:04:35 -0700 2007 2473059 89606 tcc 1 2473321 perhaps you should consider the japanese cutting method to see how japanese style knives are most effective. For example they use a "push forward" cutting technique called "ohsi giri". They use the weight of the knife to help cut the item, so in this case a light knife is not desired. Primarily there are 3 typical knives a japanese chef will have: Yanagi bocho for mostly slicing fish and meats (all purpose), deba bocho to filet a fish and a squarish bunka bocho for vegtables. They are all one sided for quicker, cleaner cuts. The japanese style knife should only be sharpened on a special stone under running water, the stone should always be stored moist aswell. The made-in-japan western style knives can be sharpened with a steel rod, but most are not of high quality. If you are using the western cutting method, I would suggest a german knife or Global. When buying Global be careful as there are many counterfeits. Shun knives are not for professional usage ( they are all show/marketing, no substance!) Thu Apr 12 04:35:36 -0700 2007 2459786 87602 Fragola 2 2477674 What makes you say Shun knives have no substance? I'm no professional, but my Shun is definitely performing as well as my Henkels and Global, although I've only had them for over a year. I find that the Shun's handle is easier for me to get my hands around, and also more comfortable when I'm cutting for long periods of time. The Global's handle is a little too thin and there's nowhere for me to rest my pointer finger. These might not be issues for a pro chef, but it sure does matter to an amateur--is that what you mean? Fri Apr 13 09:16:18 -0700 2007 2473321 11577 Pei 2 2478209 i have wusthoff and henckels (as well as Forschner) and none of them holds a candle to the shun santoku when it comes to maintaining an edge. what do you consider professional? Fri Apr 13 11:52:39 -0700 2007 2473321 74192 chuckl 3 2479850 the best knife is one that you feel most comfortable with. If you think your Shun knife helps you, fine... Its probably the same reason I think my new Nike Sumo driver helps me hit the golf ball further and straighter. Shun is made for non-professionals, good for maintaining an edge. As is Ginsu 2000. The handle is a personal preference, people with larger hands may not like Global and people with small hands may not like german handles. A knife company who promotes a special "tear drop" one size fits all handle should be ashamed. Shun knife to me, is like Iron Chef America. A weak product that will sell now thanks to Alton Brown targeting all the iron chef "wannabes". Fri Apr 13 22:01:21 -0700 2007 2478209 87602 Fragola 4 2481867 I'm not sure about critiquing the Shun handle as one size fits all. Couldn't you say that about all major knife companies, that they have a standard handle that will fit some people and not others? The ridge on the Shun classic tear drop handle fits into the creases inside your fingers at different points, this gives a firmer grip on the knife. The Shun Elites have complete different handles, more oval and a comfortable grip. You have to judge knives on a number of factors. These include weight, the grip or handle, rigidity of the blade, the balance, sharpness, ability to keep an edge, upkeep, functionality, cost, aesthetics, and general durability. These factors need to match your needs - what you will use it for, how you hold a knife, the size and grip of your hand, your interest in caring for the knife, your skill(s), etc. Knives are tools and need to match both the use and the user. If I want a knife for a professional kitchen that will get used fairly roughly, I would want a knife that is durable, is comfortable for hours of use, won't slip, and is easy to maintain. If I want a knife for home use, sharpness, a comfortable grip, and beauty are more important to me, the knife should be a pleasure to use. Sat Apr 14 21:23:48 -0700 2007 2479850 44835 jkt 5 2482354 "Couldn't you say that about all major knife companies, that they have a standard handle that will fit some people and not others?"- Thats what i said. I said its a personal preference, read my post. "The ridge on the Shun classic tear drop handle fits into the creases inside your fingers at different points, this gives a firmer grip on the knife. The Shun Elites have complete different handles, more oval and a comfortable grip" this is assuming we all have a standard sized hand... Sun Apr 15 07:58:57 -0700 2007 2481867 87602 Fragola 6 2483679 I am responding to your word choices. That a company should be "ashamed" for its handle design or that it's a "weak" product. A tear drop handle won't fit each hand the same but it will actually function well in different size hands, just like traditional handles. There will always be some people that won't match. Sun Apr 15 16:39:37 -0700 2007 2482354 44835 jkt 7 2483898 I'm not a "professional", but I find the Shun handle very comfortable, and the knife in general feels comfortable and well balanced for me. If I had waited a little longer, I might have ended up with a Misono or Hattori or another less well known Japanese knife, but I've been very happy with the Shun 8" western chef knife I have. I believe Shun does make left-handed models now... one of the biggest issues w/ the handle is that it doesn't work well for right-handed people (I think that traditionally, Japanese companies don't make left-handed models, even of their single-sided knives) because of the cultural stigma attached to being left-handed). Sun Apr 15 18:01:29 -0700 2007 2483679 59830 will47 1 2482666 Some of this might be redundant, but here is my 2 cents. First, the santoku shape is not a "traditional" Japanese knife. It is a blend of Japanese and Western influence that became popular after World War Two. The name means "three virtues". Traditionally, the Japanese cook used three types of knives: fish (deba; also used for poultry and meat; in terms of use, this knife is probably closest to the Western chef's knife), vegetable (nakiri or usuba), and sashimi slicer (common specific varieties: tako biki and yanagi ba). The name of the santoku is supposed to imply that it can take over all three tasks. Some versions of the santoku have come even closer to the Western design, like the one marketed under Rachel Ray's name, facilitating the rocking motion cutting technique. Regarding keeping the edge: traditionally, the Japanese knife is sharpened on only one edge. If this is the case, you should definitely not use a Western-style steel on it; use a stone. However, it is unlikely that a santoku would have that kind of edge, so a steel should be fine (especially if it is made by one of the German manufacturers; they tend to have thicker and heavier blades). I got my info mostly from Tsuji's "Japanese Cooking: A Simple Art". If you are further interested, check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Japanese_kitchen_knives To actually answer your question, William Ashley and Williams-Sonoma (both on Bloor) have many varieties of santoku for sale. There is one main decision you need to make: do you like a heavier, thicker (stereotypically German style) blade, or do you like a thinner, lighter, more flexible (stereotypically Japanese style) blade? If you like the thinner style, try out Kasumi, Global, and Shun. Henckels and Wustof will give you decent German-style blades. This is a great resource for info about and brands of Japanese knives: http://japanesechefsknife.com/ Personally, I would stay away from knives with grantons (the hollow ovals ground into the blade), though I admit this is subjective. They tend to be very popular on santokus, so you will need to decide if you like them. Some people think they help food release from the blade. However, as the knife is sharpened through its lifetime, the edge tends to eat into the ground ovals, reducing the aesthetic appeal of the knife. William Ashley also sells Solicut knives (German) which you might want to compare to Wustof et al if you favor the German style. They are a little more expensive, but are in about the same price range. http://www.solicut.de/index.php?en_firstclass Sun Apr 15 10:14:46 -0700 2007 2459786 90890 marzeth