38231 Thu Jul 28 01:20:00 -0700 2005 45 1 San Francisco Bay Area 0 179411 I've only recently begun drinking coffee again after many years off the stuff. I'm hardly a purist: I've never liked French roast or other bitter/burnt styles, and milk and sugar make me happy. With the coffee wars heating up around town, I decided it was time to check out the latest offerings. Blue Bottle coffee has been available for the past year at a few spots (Ferry Plaza, Sketch), but their take out window on Linden near the Octavia boulevard marked a decided improvement in quality and access. The coffee is smooth and flavorful; the people who work there are perfectionists without accompanying attitude. I wasn't crazy about the cookies. Ritual Roasters was a scene from the day it opened. Don't go without your laptop and square glasses. No, really. And no talking out on the back patio. One day everyone around me was ordering iced Americanos; pouring water in espresso made me wince. I had an iced latte which had practically no taste although I liked the glass it came in. Another time my cappucino was better, but not revelatory. I'm just not sold. The beans just don't have enough flavor to hold up to a little milk. Maybe this is the place to drink it black. On the other hand, they serve amazing snacks! An exceptional (if not completely traditional) alfajore. Vegan carrot cake. Tempting scones. Anyone know where the cookies and pastries are from? Remembering a perfect cafe con leche a few months back, I stopped in at Cafe lo Cubano. Their skill seems to have worn off with all the accolades, or maybe I just hit them on a careless afternoon. The coffee was nothing special; the milk was just milk. A spinach empanada did nothing to revive my enthusiasm. Blue Bottle remains the winner for now. *** While I was at Laurel Village, I stopped in at Peet's to check out the rare teas. The summer selections are in, including several Nilgiri estate teas. I tried the Silver Flame, an Indian white tea quite unlike the flowery white teas from China. Rich and aromatic, and even better at room temperature an hour later. Thu Jul 28 01:20:00 -0700 2005 0 Windy 1 179412 I am *so* guilty of being one of the laptop-toting masses at Ritual -- and I am definitely scoping out all the guys with square glasses. (I swear that's not the only reason I go there.) That said, Blue Bottle has better espresso, etc. -- but, guess what? The owner James has square glasses. He also remembers my name, gaining himself even more points. But there's nowhere to sit and no WiFi. I am hoping that when Ritual starts roasting their own beans that it will be the best of all worlds. They are fussy about their shots and when I ordered a macchiato to go they insisted I drink it there or it wouldn't taste right. I also buy beans there sometimes and when I wanted to buy a bean I had already tried, they said to me, "But don't you want to try something new!?!?!?!?" Thu Jul 28 01:28:21 -0700 2005 179411 0 anti-foodie 2 179414 There should be WiFi all around Hayes Valley but no scene except around the David Best temple. Now you've got me curious--what would happen to macchiato if it left the building? Worse than putting a lid on cappucino? Thu Jul 28 01:44:16 -0700 2005 179412 0 Windy 3 179421 the coffee drinks- capp, espr, etc. from BB and ritual would normally be consumed within a couple of minutes thus there is no reason to get them to go- if you have a really good barrista making them for you it will annoy him/her if you want 'to go' unless they are being generous which still doesn't make coffee sense as much as it makes business sense. honest excluding drip coffee which is an american drink and is typically sipped over time and can be quite good if made properly- more caffeine though Thu Jul 28 02:38:37 -0700 2005 179414 0 daybaker 2 179417 Caveat, I no longer drink coffee regularly, but I used to be a regular patron of Royal Ground, the original at Polk and Vallejo. Strong coffee. A fellow devotee spent a year in Philadelphia and complained he couldn't find a decent cup of coffee anywhere. And what do people think about Cool Beans at 6th and California? I've been a couple of times, nice atmosphere. I must disclose that one of the co-owners is the brother of a pal of mine. Thu Jul 28 02:08:05 -0700 2005 179412 0 semmel 3 179422 I've spent quite a bit of time there myself, but always preferred smoothies to coffee. Sam and Henry are the best. The whole neighborhood passes through those doors. Thu Jul 28 03:20:50 -0700 2005 179417 0 Windy 2 179444 What beans from Ritual do you like? I bought some beans for a trip to a place with bad coffee and I was not happy with Ritual's beans. The place does seem tres trendy, but I was there on an early Sat. morning and the staff was super friendly. No 'tude. Thu Jul 28 12:33:09 -0700 2005 179412 0 Mari 2 179475 I am a big fan of the staff and space at Ritual (and as a laptop-totting, squarish-glass-wearing coffee drinker I feel right at home.) And I live around the corner. But far as coffee goes, Blue Bottle's got my vote. Perfect espresso. Decadant iced coffee. And home of the Gibraltar. Its always worth the trip to Hayes. If you are looking for beans to make at home try Blue Bottle's 100% Yemen. I am so addicted that I had this stuff shipped out to me during an extended sojourn on the East Coast. Ritual Coffee Roasters is definitely the coffee to watch though -- especially when live up their name and start roasting their own beans. For more on the light hearted rivalry between Blue Bottle and Ritual check out the Blue Bottle Blog below Link: http://bluebottlecoffee.blogspot.com/2005_05_01_bluebottlecoffee_archive.html Thu Jul 28 14:25:50 -0700 2005 179412 0 Dybbster 1 179446 I want to like Blue Bottle but compared with my usual Peet's (50-50 Sulawesi-Kalossi and 101, cone filter, milk no sugar), even their strongest seems bland. Thu Jul 28 12:46:46 -0700 2005 179411 0 Robert Lauriston 2 179454 Would anyone care to share their further thoughts on Peet's coffee beans? Thanks! Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/300630#1671963 Thu Jul 28 13:24:00 -0700 2005 179446 0 nooodles 3 179495 I've had really bad luck buying Peet's beans at places other than the high-volume Berkeley and SF branches. Stale and bad. Thu Jul 28 15:45:44 -0700 2005 179454 0 Robert Lauriston 4 179598 I have had very good luck at our local Peet's on Lakeshore. It's another really busy store. I've never had old coffee from Peet's...I'd never buy it from their in-store racks at BB and other grocers. I can't help it. Maybe it's because I always have milk/half/half in my coffee, but I've never felt Peet's was bitter. It's truly amazing to me that since 1965 or whenever Mr. Peet opened his store in Berkeley, this coffee has maintained such a high quality. I keep expecting them to go downhill as they expand like the corporate octopus they've become. They never disappoint me, though. I lived in LA for several years in the late 70's early 80's and couldn't get Peet's. There were not very many coffee bean stores in LA then and I went nuts. Even started ordering it from Berkeley. My real question however, is Does Blue Bottle sell brewed coffee or beans from their Telegraph place? I can't tell from their website. It seems very snobbish if they make it in Oaktown and only sell it in the more tony environs of SF. Fri Jul 29 01:47:08 -0700 2005 179495 0 oakjoan 5 179682 Peet's less popular coffees like Sulawesi-Kalossi tend to be stale at branches that don't sell a lot of beans, like the ones around the Financial District in SF. Fri Jul 29 14:35:24 -0700 2005 179598 0 Robert Lauriston 5 179724 Go to the Telegraph location on Mondays and Fridays after 11am and you can buy beans from the owner himself... If not...Tuesdays at the Berkeley Farmer's Market Nothin like a drip coffee from beans that were roasted that very same day :) Fri Jul 29 16:49:46 -0700 2005 179598 0 63soul 6 179771 This might seem a little nit-picky, but you really don't want to drink coffee from beans roasted that day. After roasting, the beans have to be stored for 24-48 hours until they de-gas. Fri Jul 29 18:47:57 -0700 2005 179724 0 Steve 7 179813 I've roasted beans, ground them, and made espresso bang bang bang, and that was some of the best coffee I've ever had. They weren't even particularly special beans. Obviously tastes vary. Which reminds me, I need to visit Sweet Maria's and get into another expensive habit. Fri Jul 29 21:23:16 -0700 2005 179771 0 Robert Lauriston 8 179831 You'll be sorry!! Next thing you know, you'll be posting on Coffeegeeks home roasting forum 24 hours a day. From then on there is no hope for you!.It will finally end when you invest in a complete home machine shop to solely build the most perfect coffee roaster out of your outdoor Weber grill! Heed my words DON'T DO IT!!!!! Sat Jul 30 00:17:56 -0700 2005 179813 0 Steve 2 179458 It's definatley a matter of taste...I was a Peet's diehard..it's all you have when you live in SoCal After moving up here I was turned on to Royal Coffee and have sinced moved on to BB..there's a "smoothness" or refined quality to BB, where at Royal and Peet's I get a harsh tinge or "raisiness"... Thu Jul 28 13:42:24 -0700 2005 179446 0 63soul 3 179548 I agree. I'm a total convert to Blue Bottle. Now when I have to get Peets in an emergency from the Lakeshore location in Oakland, the coffee tastes incredibly harsh and bitter. BB really is more subtle and complex. I only wish they were less of a pain to purchase. I'm contemplating delivery when I move to LA next month. Link: http://bluebottlecoffee.net Thu Jul 28 19:00:32 -0700 2005 179458 0 Missy P. 2 179463 Same thing with me. I really want to like Blue Bottle. Since they have been open I have been telling myself that I must like this. It is roasted that day, brewed by hand, etc. etc. However, the breaking point for me was that Hayes Valley blend. It is harsh and qualifies as coffee swill to me, no matter what care went into it. I REALLY don't like the whole luke warm aspect to the way the cup is brewed. I've brought home a few bags, not memorable enough for me to buy another bag. For all the description of the special chocolate they use in the mocha and hot chocolate, not really sure if I like it our not. Might order a few more to decide. Less flavor than I expected. However, I really do love that New Orleans iced coffee. I think that one place may not be all things. There are places I like the espresso / cappucino but not the straight coffee and visa versa. I haven't had the cappucino at Blue Bottle yet. How's that apple juice they sell, BTW? I'm beginnig to think that anyone who likes Miette that much, might not be that great after all. And yes, i know the persoal reasons for liking Miette, yet still ... Think it is funny in the OP's sort of blind tasting a Miette cookie would be rejected. I am still tripping off that smooth French Roast decaf that I bought at Coffee Conscious on Gillman in Berkeley. Thu Jul 28 14:10:31 -0700 2005 179446 0 rworange 3 179480 I recommend trying the BBC cappuccino - I have two a day, every day. Strangely, I like the "to go" proportions of the cappuccino better than when you get it there in the ceramic cup, I swear the to-go proportions are wetter, and the bit of extra milk really mellows the harsher tones of the Hayes Valley blend. It took some getting used to the Hayes Valley blend for me at first, and I still would prefer the Roma Espresso roast drinks that they use for the drinks at the FPFM, but even so I really find it hard to accept using the term "swill" for BBC coffee. I think the Hayes Valley blend cappuccino still beats any cappuccino I can get anywhere else in the city. Thu Jul 28 14:39:46 -0700 2005 179463 0 Celeste 2 179468 From what I understand, that's intentional. I recall reading quotes by the Blue Bottle guy when they first hit the scene. He made some negative remarks about those other local coffee roasters, claiming they over-roasted. He was aiming for more complexity and delicacy by using a lighter roast and stressing freshness of the beans. The best cup of coffee I've had in recent memory was a drip at the Blue Bottle stand at FPFM over a year ago. Lightly roasted but a stunning complexity of flavors. It made me stop shopping, sit down, and focus all of my attention on it until it was gone. Unfortunately they have never replicated that cup. They get impatient now with the drip filters, or perhaps the customers are impatient and the staff is trying to accomodate. I've seen them stir and jab at the filters to get them to drip faster. Worse yet, I've seen them start a cup of coffee under one filter, then move it to a new filter when the first one starts to slow down. I once had a cup that came from four different filters; the girl was moving my cup between the filters so frantically that it looked like she was running a shell game. The people at Frog Hollow use similar techniques. The result is a cup that doesn't have the full range of flavors that it should so it ends up, well, bland. Now when I got the Ferry Building I get coffee from Peets. No cup of theirs has ever been as great as that first one from Blue Bottle, but it's more reliable than BB. I haven't had the chance to try Blue Bottle's kiosk on Hayes. -Nick P.S. Great thread, it's making me smile. Thu Jul 28 14:13:50 -0700 2005 179446 0 nja 3 179497 the kiosk might be a revelation for you, nick. the idea of getting a cup at the farmers' market amid all the produce-obsessed makes me want to slice open my jugular. the coffee's bound to be less than stellar under those mayhem-ic circumstances. Thu Jul 28 16:07:54 -0700 2005 179468 0 shocker 3 179512 Although I do not drink much brewed coffee, I do drink about 5 shots of espresso a day. There are few variables when brewing the espresso no matter what quality of bean is used. The grind almost always has to be calibrated daily, and the brew temperature has to consistent each time. I knew a man that made some of the best espresso in the city using Mr. Espresso, and the reason was of all the other variables he did a good job controlling. I use to love Illy, until recently I startded trying some local blends, not to mention that I found out Illy is 6 months old on average by the time you get a hold of it. Both Ritual and Blue bottle are excellent, but ritual is too much of a scene, and neither can satisfy my desire to hang out in a place and linger my morning away. In Walnut Creek, Pacific Bay Coffee is doing an excellent job in elevating coffee to a higher level. And for mail order, www.sweetmarias.com Link: http://http://www.brewtusgroup.com/rt/fileroom?&layout=rt&exclusive=filemgr.download&file_id=13149&rtcontentdisposition=filename%3De61big.jpg Thu Jul 28 16:43:57 -0700 2005 179468 0 Mil Mascaras 1 179450 Here I sit, wearing square glasses, reading Chowhound and sipping a latte at Ritual Coffee. The stuff if damn good -- some of the best coffee available in the city, to my mind. If it's too much of a scene for you, try the slightly dumpy but awfully delicious Cafe Organia in the Western Addition. I guaranty you will not be disappointed. Blue Bottle, Organica, and Ritual have brought a new level of coffee to SF, and I, for one, am pleased that folks are finally paying more attention to our Joe. Thu Jul 28 12:55:53 -0700 2005 179411 0 JollyRoger 2 179469 Can you tell us more about Organica? I have read about it on the Blue Bottle Clown College blog, but don't really know anything else about it. Do they roast their own beans? I only leave the 5-block radius of my house on special ocassions, and luckily, Ritual falls within that area. Should I make the journey? Thu Jul 28 14:15:28 -0700 2005 179450 0 anti-foodie 3 179473 Isn't it a mark of a chowhound, to venture to the panhandle just in case they have the best/latest/mellowest coffee in the city? Besides, there's always the possibility of eye candy... Thu Jul 28 14:24:06 -0700 2005 179469 0 Windy 3 179574 It's certainly worth the trip. They don't roast their own beans but instead get them from a handful of roasters, Stumptown among them, I think. The barista is a perfectionist. I like their coffee a bit more than Ritual's. Thu Jul 28 22:00:59 -0700 2005 179469 0 JollyRoger 4 179575 the reason the barista is a perfectionist is because he is the owner. And let me second the opinion of those who have touted Organica. By the way, in addition to stumptown they also use my favorite roaster, Barefoot Roasters from cupertino. Thu Jul 28 22:25:54 -0700 2005 179574 0 steve 5 179931 Thanks, great recommendation, completely unassuming place and owner. They have a fine tea selection too, unlike Canteen where I'd just come from. The brulee cappucino was a moment of excitement in my morning. Anything with a blow torch before noon. Even the coffee cards are way above average. Like most of the middle Divis spots, there was almost no one above 30 except me. Made the crowd at Ritual seem middle aged by comparison. I'd still give the flavor edge to Blue Bottle, but I have a few more roasts to try at Organica before it's a fair contest. Link: http://www.coffeeratings.com/ Sat Jul 30 17:51:51 -0700 2005 179575 0 Windy 1 179457 Both Ritual and Blue bottle get their ginger scones from the same baker. Blue Bottle's macaroons are from Miette. Not sure where the other bake goods at Ritual are from though. Thu Jul 28 13:40:13 -0700 2005 179411 0 xiong xiong 2 179460 Thanks! I remember now about the macarons coming from Miette--not as tasty as Boulangerie's macarons. The dog biscuits looked good ;) Thu Jul 28 13:52:43 -0700 2005 179457 0 Windy 3 179583 Here's my post on the cookies. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/33884#153344 Thu Jul 28 23:59:35 -0700 2005 179460 0 Melanie Wong 1 179478 If you want to brew your own, try Graffeo's beans. I drink the dark roast, but you might prefer the light. Justa Bite cafe next door to Graffeo serves their coffee, so you could sample it there (not sure which roast). I think XOX truffles across the street does too. Thu Jul 28 14:33:44 -0700 2005 179411 0 Anya L 2 179485 Yes. XOX does serve Graffeo ... and you get a free truffle with it. After all the coffee sampling I've done, my favorite is still that Graffeo dark roast. I also thing Cafe Roma has some fine coffee though I wouldn't buy the cappucchino there which is only ok. Thu Jul 28 14:58:05 -0700 2005 179478 0 rworange 2 179486 Yes, and XOX gives out a free truffle with every cup of coffee. Thu Jul 28 14:58:58 -0700 2005 179478 0 Gary Soup 2 179489 Graffeo will also blend you a mix of dark and light beans--it's not all black and white Thu Jul 28 15:10:27 -0700 2005 179478 0 Windy 2 179550 I tried Graffeo beans for the first time a few weeks ago (bought a pound from the Columbus store), after my conversion to Blue Bottle several months ago. By comparison, I found Graffeo harsh and almost stodgy-tasting. Just so bleh "coffee" -- not complex like BB at all. I tried the darker roast. Thu Jul 28 19:03:34 -0700 2005 179478 0 Missy P. 3 179558 I used to drink Graffeo almost exclusively and for the most part it was always good, high quality. It did seem uneven at times, though.... Thu Jul 28 19:22:11 -0700 2005 179550 0 bvh 3 179564 So, what blends of Blue Bottle do you recommend? Now, if it's Haye's Street, then I would say our coffee tastes don't match. I brought a couple of BB bags for home when they were just starting, so I can't remember what I tried. I want to like BB, but that cup of Hayes Street pushed me over the edge. There is a Graffeo in Beverly Hills, but, uh, I guess you wouldn't be interested. Graffeo takes a lot of care with their beans. The guy who runs the shop can really go on about bean quality. I know many people don't like the dark roast because it is so strong, but for me it is coffee nirvana. Sorry to hear you are leaving the Bay Area. Will look for your posts on the LA Board. A whole new eating world awaits you. Thu Jul 28 20:23:15 -0700 2005 179550 0 rworange 4 180037 Yes, I am very excited about LA eating adventures. Sadly I will be very busy with school for the next two years, but I will do my best. When I lived in LA briefly several years ago I had many delicious meals. It is indeed a different world down there, food-wise (well, and otherwise, as well). I am mostly terrified of life without Berkeley Bowl, Acme Bread and my farmers market. Anyway, as for Blue Bottle, I really like the Three Africans, which has a nice acidity to it. The Bella Donovan is a standby and the Giant Steps is nice and mellow (but a bit less complex than the other two). You should talk to the BB people. I'm sure they'd try to find a bean/blend to suit your tastes. My new local coffee shop (I'm moving on Tuesday!) is linked below. It seems to get mixed reviews on the LA board, but I had a good latte last time I was there. Not sure about their beans...may have to order from Blue Bottle. Sigh. Cheers, Melissa Link: http://sworkcoffee.com/ Mon Aug 01 01:21:46 -0700 2005 179564 0 Missy P. 5 180257 another great resource for LA, from Chowhound's beloved Low End Theory Link: http://lowendrestaurants.blogspot.com/ Mon Aug 01 20:50:13 -0700 2005 180037 0 Windy 6 180278 Oh my goodness. Thank you. Mon Aug 01 22:41:04 -0700 2005 180257 0 Missy P. 1 179503 I think Blue Bottle is mostly the Emperor's New Clothes,it was good but now is often mediocre and bitter. Give me the eccentric Phil,of Philz coffee on 24th and Folsom,anyday! Thu Jul 28 16:23:46 -0700 2005 179411 0 coralv 2 179576 I just love the way Phil blends high quality (expensive) Arabica beans with cheap Robusta to bring the profit margin up. Thu Jul 28 22:31:39 -0700 2005 179503 0 Steve 1 179949 I've been a Peet's person 30+ years. The local Peet's in Menlo Park is busy; bean turnover is great. The brother-in-law who went to Stanford had his Sulawessi-Kaloosi shipped for many years until Peet's opened in Boston. I could never drink his stuff! Peet's is pricy, which makes it dear in my book. In fact, I can't always afford it.I love that they give a free cup with purchase. I had to laugh today because the London Financial Times Weekend edition had an article on Nescafe at Italian restaurants- whadda you know? Sat Jul 30 21:40:42 -0700 2005 179411 0 Kathleen