379334 Fri Mar 09 15:17:00 -0800 2007 12 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 2370986 I have some once great and now maderized white and red wines I hate to toss away. I'd like to learn a way to save the stuff, if possible. Fri Mar 09 15:17:00 -0800 2007 59213 mymymichl 1 2371421 Are you referring to wine that was not intended to be maderized that now has been? If so, there isn't much you can do with it -- I wouldn't even make vinegar with it as it will give your vinegar an off taste. Fri Mar 09 17:47:10 -0800 2007 2370986 16933 Carrie 218 2 2380016 Guess I don't understand enough about the process of making wine vinegar. Every home-scale vinegar op I've seen is exposed to air. Is it possible to convert wine to vinegar without it going through an oxidative step? A maderized wine is one that has oxidized, and I'm curious about how you prevent wine from becoming maderized on the way to becoming vinegar to prevent the taste flaw you mention. Tue Mar 13 01:50:20 -0700 2007 2371421 10039 Melanie Wong 3 2380654 I don't believe a maderized wine is one that has necessarily been oxidized by oxygen and that is where there is a flavor difference. I would be willing to bet that if you simply put a bottle of wine in the trunk of your car for a week and then added that to a vinegar pot (I keep a home vinegar brew going), it would adversely affect the flavor of the vinegar. Tue Mar 13 09:01:54 -0700 2007 2380016 16933 Carrie 218 4 2381045 Maderized means 1) oxidized or 2) affected by oxygen in combination with heat. I just want to make sure that we're talking about the same thing in answering the question at hand. Tue Mar 13 10:43:57 -0700 2007 2380654 10039 Melanie Wong 5 2381335 I guess I've been only going by the Oxford version (http://www.oxfordwineroom.com/WineTermsParody/wtresults.asp?winetype=Maderized): ""Oxidized" is frequently used to describe maderization. Oxidized, speaking technically, relates to air contamination; maderization is associated more with improper storage near heat and sunlight and old age." Tue Mar 13 11:46:06 -0700 2007 2381045 16933 Carrie 218 6 2388618 That link is for the Oxford Wine Room site about wining and dining in New England. Lucky for us, the new, third edition of the _Oxford Companion to Wine_ launched online (subscription service) yesterday. A shy 'hound just emailed me the entry for maderization, written by ADW (Professor A. Dinsmoor Webb), "maderization Occasionally madeirization, is the process by which a wine is made to taste like Madeira, involving mild oxidation over a long period and, usually, heat. Such a wine is said to be maderized. Although this tasting term is occasionally applied pejoratively to mean that a wine is oxidized, it should properly be applied only to wines with a high enough alcoholic strength to inhibit the action of acetobacter, which would otherwise transform the wine into vinegar. Very few maderized wines are made today by simply ageing the wine at cellar temperature (although this was once a technique practised for making fuller sherry styles outside Jerez); the oxidation process is instead hastened by heating or 'baking' the wine as on the island of Madeira. Oxidation reactions, like most organic chemical reactions, can be roughly doubled in speed by a temperature rise of 10 °C/18 °F. For example, a wine requiring ten years at a cellar temperature of 20 °C to develop a maderized character could manifest approximately, although not exactly, the same character after about two and a half years at 40 °C or 15 months at 50 °C. Maderized wines are normally amber to brown in colour and have a distinctive cooked or mildly caramelized flavour. Wines processed at excessively high temperatures may taste burnt and harsh. Most such wines and especially those made from American vines or American hybrids are fortified and sweetened before being marketed. Madeira and similar wines such as early sherry-style wines made in California were particularly popular in the 18th and early 19th centuries but have since fallen out of fashion. See also rancio wines. A.D.W." Oxidation is indeed a part of maderization. Thu Mar 15 10:23:31 -0700 2007 2381335 10039 Melanie Wong 7 2389725 No disagreement on that part -- but part of the discussion was going back to the use of a maderized wine in vinegar which, if it were truly an intentionally-maderized wine, it would have higher alcohol and thus be a bit on the sweet side; something you wouldn't want in a homemade vinegar. Just oxydized wine is fine in homemade vinegar but fortified wines should be left out of homemade vinegar. Depending on the level of unintentional maderization, if the wine "cooked" at all, it could ruin the flavor of a good homemade vinegar. Thanks for adding that info -- my older Oxford had too much info to want to transcribe! Thu Mar 15 14:21:30 -0700 2007 2388618 16933 Carrie 218 1 2371629 With maderized white, cooking! It's very similar to sherry. Maderized red wine. though, I've always been chicken to try in a recipe (but then, I don't like red wine in cooking, anyway). Fri Mar 09 19:09:28 -0800 2007 2370986 55316 mpalmer6c 1 2371865 I've braised beef ribs in unintentionally maderized red wine for a few hours and they were delicious. In fact, I've since made the same recipe with 'good' wine, and I definitely preferred the maderized version. I think the key is that maderized wine doesn't actually taste bad (as in offensive), rather it's just not something you'd want to sip a whole glass of. Maybe don't use the red to cook for company, but it's definitely worth trying as part of a braising medium (especially with cheap cuts of meat). Fri Mar 09 21:25:47 -0800 2007 2370986 24405 mtl to tor 2 4990507 This is exactly what I was looking for. I brought a bottle of Russian champagne home for the Soviet Union. We were there when the plane landed in Red Square so I saved a bottle to commemorate the event. I stored it in my closet which is dark but warm and just opened it last Friday, August 28. Of course there was no pop, lol, but I passed a glass around anyway and it was surprisingly good and tasted like Sherry and was very sweet. I immediately thought it would make a great marinade for steak and that is what I intend to do. It is totally drinkable but I do not like sweet wines and will not just drink it. Hmmm, hmmm, I can just imagine how great it is going to be as a marinade along with the onions and garlic. Thanks for the information. Sun Aug 30 12:19:38 -0700 2009 2371865 206101 pearlyvictoria 1 2373490 Sorry, kids, but the best use is as a drain cleaner. I can digest almost anything and endure just about any flavor, so I figure if something makes me want to hurl it's almost inevitably toxic. Sat Mar 10 17:13:34 -0800 2007 2370986 11478 Will Owen 1 2373914 Thank you, Will. I am not alone. Sat Mar 10 22:14:54 -0800 2007 2370986 16933 Carrie 218