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Need some help on white wines

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bobby06877 Feb 20, 2007 07:27 AM

As a wine newbie, I have been trying a lot of different wines over the last several months to sample new varieties and to try to learn of great wines I had not tried before. I have limited myself initially to reds only to make the task a little less daunting. My biggest surprise has been the noticeable difference in modern versus old world wines. We have found, so far, that we have a strong prefernce towards the European wines, particularly a French Bordeaux and Burgundy, to their domestic counterparts. We have done a lot of blind taste tests to make sure we are not biased one way or the other, and we always end up selecting the European. The one thing we know for sure is that we the fruit forward component of the modern wines does not appeal to us as much. My question for this group is if this distinction between modern and old world (excuse me if I am using the terms incorrectly but I am still learning) is as distinct in white wines as it is in reds? For example will there be a notable difference between a California Chardonnay and a White Burgundy? We stopped drinking many white wines a few years ago primarily because we felt that they were a little too fruity for our taste. I am hoping the European counterparts may be different. Our taste tends to be more towards a dry wine but we also appreciate the tannins in a red. Any advise and specific recommendations are greatly appreciated. Thank you.

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  1. carswell RE: bobby06877 Feb 20, 2007 08:44 AM

    While it's always risky to make generalizations (especially at a time when many Old World producers are consciously imitating the New World style), the short answer is yes, the differences between New World and Old World whites generally parallel those between New World and Old World reds. Old World whites tend to be less extracted, lower in alcohol, often higher in acid, less about fruit and oak and more about other flavours (minerals chief among them) than their New World counterparts. They also tend to have a greater sense of place.

    To take an extreme example, a California (warm climate) Chardonnay made from superripe grapes, extracted to the max, allowed to undergo malolactic fermentation and given heavy oak treatment is going to be a dense, fat, unrefreshing wine that tastes and smells of tropical fruit and vanilla. An unoaked Chablis (cool-climate Chardonnay) that undergoes no or partial malolactic fermentation is going to be zippy, even tart, and taste and smell of minerals (slate, chalk, gunflint) with hints of green apple, lemon and maybe even straw and oats.

    Recommendations? Hard given the breadth of choice and the fact that my lunch break's over. Here's hoping others chime in, as will I when I can find a minute. In the meantime, look over some of the tasting notes I and others have posted.

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      zin1953 RE: bobby06877 Feb 20, 2007 08:51 AM

      "My question for this group is if this distinction between modern and old world (excuse me if I am using the terms incorrectly but I am still learning) is as distinct in white wines as it is in reds?"

      YES.

      Let me start by saying I wouldn't describe it as "modern" and "old world," but rather "modern" and "traditional." Old World (i.e. European) wines can also be made in a modern style, just as some wines from California, Australia and Chile may be described as "traditional."

      But *presuming* you try a California Chardonnay made in a modern style side-by-side with a white Burgundy made in a traditional style, the differences will be significant -- especially if, for example, you try a Chablis or Chablis 1er Cru with a Monterey or Santa Barbara Co. Chardonnay (as opposed to, for example, a Chardonnay from the Sonoma Coast or Santa Cruz Mtns.).

      Specific recommendations depend largely upon where you live. What is available to me here in Berkeley, California, might not be the same as what you can find.

      General recommendations, however, are easy: three white Burgundies (Chardonnay) -- staying within your budget (do *not* feel you have to spend more than you want) -- try a really good Chablis, a Meursault, and a Macon-Villages; then, look for a Chardonnay from the appellation Vins du Pays de Jardins de France (Loire Valley) or Vins du Pays d'Oc (Languedoc). Four Sauvignon Blancs -- a good white Bordeaux from the appellation of Pessac-Leognan, and another from the less expensive but tasty appellation of Entre-deux-Mers; and two from the following Loire appellations -- Sancerre, Pouilly-Fume (do not confuse thise with Pouilly-Fuisse), Quincy, or Reuilly (don't confuse this with Rully). Also, do not pass up such other dry Loire Valley whites as Muscadet, Vouvray sec or even demi-sec, Savennieres (though these are better with age); or wines from Alsace, such as Pinot Blanc, Pinot Gris, Riesling and Gewurztramienr -- all dry (unless you purchased wines made by Zind-Humbrecht, or those with the Selection de Grains Nobles [SGN] designation).

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        Chicago Mike RE: bobby06877 Feb 20, 2007 09:42 AM

        For example will there be a notable difference between a California Chardonnay and a White Burgundy?

        This is just a generalization, but in a typical year you may find California Chardonnay to be "heavier" than their average French counterpart...

        My own bias is that these generalizations aren't that helpful and since I'm more focused on food & wine matching than just wine by itself I don't find the differences in most cases to be profound enough to matter. You're going to have well-developed chardonnay essence in both California and French bottlings and they tend to complement the same types of food.

        Assuming that the French bottling may be a bit more "elegant" then you might enjoy contrasting a French and California chardonnay with two different dishes. One a subtlely-herbed chicken dish and another a heavy garlic, cheesy/buttery, shellfish alfredo...

        See whether for each dish you prefer the more stylish French offering or the richer California version.... Each wine matches each dish but your palate will probably prefer one style of wine for each style of food...

        1 Reply
        1. re: Chicago Mike
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          bobby06877 RE: Chicago Mike Feb 20, 2007 10:13 AM

          Great point about food and wine matching. One of the primary reasons we started to look at white wines was a change in our diets to include more poultry, fish and lighter food that don't match as well with many of our red wines.

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          bobby06877 RE: bobby06877 Feb 20, 2007 09:50 AM

          Thanks for your very thorough response, it is appreciated. I did purchase a wine from Sancerre yesterday but I was told by the wine store owner that it was a white Burgundy. Is that incorrect? From your response it would appear that a Sancerre is a white Bordeaux. The bottle was not in the Burgundy or Bordeaux section of the store but in a separate area for Loire Valley. I did want to try a Chablis but I will do that next time.

          6 Replies
          1. re: bobby06877
            carswell RE: bobby06877 Feb 20, 2007 09:53 AM

            White Sancerre is 100% Sauvignon Blanc from the Sancerre appellation in the central Loire. Sauvignon Blanc is also found in some white Bordeaux (e.g. Graves, Pessac-Léognan), either by itself or as part of a blend. Burgundy's St-Bris appellation makes lovely Sauvignon Blanc that's stylistically about as far away from the fruity New Zealand style as you can get.

            1. re: carswell
              ChefJune RE: carswell Feb 20, 2007 10:03 AM

              "Burgundy's St-Brice appellation makes lovely Sauvignon Blanc that's stylistically about as far away from the fruity New Zealand style as you can get."

              From my wine education i've learned that there are only TWO white wine grapes in Burgundy... Chardonnay and Aligote. Where is this "St.-Brice" appellation?

              1. re: ChefJune
                carswell RE: ChefJune Feb 20, 2007 10:29 AM

                'Scuse the brainfart; it's St-Bris.

                Formerly a VDQS, "St-Bris was granted full appellation status from the 2001 vintage for its crisp, cool climate Sauvignon ... About 100 ha/250 acres of Sauvignon vines in the communes of St-Bris-le-Vineux [one of the best names ever!], Chitry, Irancy, Quenne, and parts of Vincelottes south of Auxerre and west of Chablis are currently in production." (Oxford Companion to Wine, 3rd edition)

                Besides Chardonnay, Aligoté and Sauvignon Blanc, white Burgundy can be made from Pinot Blanc (it's allowed but not often found in Bourgogne blanc and some white Mâcon). There's also a minuscule amount of white Pinot Noir grown and made in Nuit-St-Georges.

            2. re: bobby06877
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              zin1953 RE: bobby06877 Feb 20, 2007 10:36 AM

              Sancerre is NEITHER a white Bordeaux (which are generally Sauvignon Blanc-Semillon blends), NOR a white Burgundy (which are generally 100% Chardonnay, unless the label reads "Bourgogne Aligote [which are 100% Aligote], though they may contain other grapes -- Pinot Gris, Pinot Blanc, and a tiny amount of other varieties). It is from the Loire Valley, and is 100% Sauvignon Blanc.

              There are hundreds if not thousands of appellations in France. These are contained within seven major (both famous and large) regions: Alsace, Bordeaux, Burgundy, the Languedoc-Roussillon, the Loire Valley, the Rhone Valley and Champagne. There are also several minor (in size) regions; the best known include the Jura, Provence, and the Sud-Ouest, which includes the Basque region. There are many fine if not excellent wines found throughout all of them.

              1. re: zin1953
                carswell RE: zin1953 Feb 20, 2007 10:41 AM

                >>white Burgundy (which are generally 100% Chardonnay, unless the label reads "Bourgogne Aligote [which are 100% Aligote], though they may contain other grapes -- Pinot Gris, Pinot Blanc, and a tiny amount of other varieties)<<

                Can Pinot Gris be used to make white Burgundy? I thought its use was limited to red Burg (when it's called Pinot Beurot).

                1. re: carswell
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                  zin1953 RE: carswell Feb 20, 2007 11:11 AM

                  There is quite a bit in Corton, where it's used in whites . . . in theory, new plantings are no longer allowed, but -- trust me: it's there. ;^)

            3. ChefJune RE: bobby06877 Feb 20, 2007 10:00 AM

              "will there be a notable difference between a California Chardonnay and a White Burgundy? " Oh boy, will there! Actually, not quite as much as a few years ago, as some Cali producers have finally gotten the hint and are producing chardonnays that are much less oaky than before. That said, in general, I prefer Burgundian chardonnays to Californian.

              I am a big fan of Chablis, especially Premier Cru and above, but I also enjoy St. Veran for everyday, as well as a "baby Chablis" from Vezelay.

              Among the California Chardonnays I like are Far Niente, Trefethen and Sonoma Cutrer.

              Hope this helps.

              2 Replies
              1. re: ChefJune
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                bobby06877 RE: ChefJune Feb 21, 2007 02:31 PM

                We opened up our first White Burgundy last night, an entry level Bize Bourgogne Blanc, and we could not believe it was a Chardonnay. It was terrific. The Chablis will be our next wine since I heard it was a nice, dry wine. I heard Montrachet is outstanding but a little too pricy at this point, I will work up to it.

                1. re: bobby06877
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                  zin1953 RE: bobby06877 Feb 21, 2007 07:37 PM

                  Eye-opening, isn't it!

                  Don't worry about Le Montrachet (single vineyard Grand Cru) -- try the wines of Puligny-Montrachet, Chassagne-Montrachet and Meursault (villages within the Côte de Beaune). They are much less expensive by comparison, though by no means cheap.

                  When it comes to Chablis, try a "straight" Chablis, a Chablis 1er Cru AND a Chablis Grand Cru . . . all from Chablis, but three different yet extraordinary wines.

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                Campania RE: bobby06877 Feb 20, 2007 11:14 AM

                May I suggest Old World wines from Campania in Italy:

                Fiano di Avellino produced by Macchialupa. it is the BEST Fiano in the region.
                Falanghina produced Mustilli, the first pioneer of Falanghina besides Cantina del Taburno
                Greco di Tufo produced by Terredora, the other Mastroberadino half and the best Greco made by an incredible man. I call it the, "Man's White Wine"

                If you want a more international style, try Feudi di San Gregorio. They make all 3 wines.

                2 Replies
                1. re: Campania
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                  bobby06877 RE: Campania Feb 20, 2007 11:22 AM

                  Is it the same Mastrobernardino that produces the Radici Taurasi? My only concern about the Italian whites is that they have a broad generalization of being "fruity" or "sweet".

                  1. re: bobby06877
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                    zin1953 RE: bobby06877 Feb 20, 2007 11:24 AM

                    Yes.

                    You can also seek out Terre di Tufi by Terruzi & Puthod . . .

                2. Robert Lauriston RE: bobby06877 Feb 20, 2007 01:32 PM

                  "[is] this distinction between modern and old world ... as distinct in white wines as it is in reds?"

                  It is for me. When playing "name that wine" with wines in brown paper bags, my first cut is usually whether a wine is old-world (in which I include South Africa) or new-world.

                  Once in a while I'm fooled by European wines made for export or by new-world winemakers who pursue an old-world style.

                  5 Replies
                  1. re: Robert Lauriston
                    carswell RE: Robert Lauriston Feb 20, 2007 01:55 PM

                    It works the other way, too. A year and a half ago I served a 1994 Robert Mondavi Reserve Cabernet Sauvignon and a 1994 Dominus double blind to group of experienced tasters. Everyone in the group, including a couple of Frenchmen, pegged the Mondavi as a New World wine and the Dominus as a Bordeaux.

                    1. re: carswell
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                      zin1953 RE: carswell Feb 20, 2007 03:45 PM

                      That's cheating. ;^) Dominus is often mistaken for Bordeaux at 10+ years of age.

                      1. re: zin1953
                        Bill Hunt RE: zin1953 Feb 21, 2007 05:19 PM

                        Did a Meritage [insert US Bdx-blend, as none was officially a "Meritage"] vs Bordeaux tasting last Feb, and no one (34 guests) got the Dominus as NW. Yeah, it was cheating, a bit, but I wanted them to see that OW-NW wasn't just geography.

                        Did a tasting at a festival recently, and the host chose all NW, that tasted like OW, and OW, that tasted like NW. He mixed in a Syrah, that thought it was a Zin and a Zin, that thought it was a Cab. Out of 200, there was only one person, who said they got them all right - until her scorecard was checked, and she'd missed over 50% of them.

                        I am now of the belief, that one could structure a single-blind tasting, that would fool almost any good wine critic. Might be a fun theme for a tasting - or maybe not!

                        Hunt

                        1. re: Bill Hunt
                          Robert Lauriston RE: Bill Hunt Feb 21, 2007 05:21 PM

                          You have a list of those NW-tastes-like-OW? I'm always looking for such wines.

                          1. re: Robert Lauriston
                            Bill Hunt RE: Robert Lauriston Feb 21, 2007 05:34 PM

                            I'll pull up my notes from the New Orleans Wine & Food Festival and get them to you - provided that I can locate them. It should not be that big a deal, and I'll try to have the research done by the weekend.

                            Hunt

                            PS. not from that event, but from memory: the Dominus (mentioned earlier) and Ch. Burbank (yes, Burbank from CA) and Sullivan Napa, for two NW Chards, that can easily pass for OW Montrachets, or maybe Meursaults. More to come!

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                    Campania RE: bobby06877 Feb 21, 2007 12:01 PM

                    Here is a better description of Campanian Whites that I wrote: (they aren't sweet at all!)

                    Greco di Tufo tends to be straw yellow in color with a bit of gold tints. Various fruits contribute to the taste of Greco di Tufo, but this doesn't mean it’s sweet! Apples, white peaches, apricots, and local citrus fruits are blended together give the wine its unique taste. Greco di Tufo can be paired with shellfish, grilled fish and chicken, soft cheeses (mozzarella di bufala).

                    -Falanghina is pale, bright yellow. Falanghina is an excellent beginning to dinner with antipasti. It’s light, fresh, and clean. Local annurca apples are the key aroma along with hints of nutmeg and maybe a bit of toasted Virginia tobacco. Serve with seafood, vegetables, risotto, carpaccio, chicken, turkey, and soft cheeses.

                    -Fiano di Avellino's medium gold appearance is telling of the toasted hazelnuts, almonds, and honey that highlight its fabulous taste. Native flowers, pears, apricots, and citrus fruits may be detected along with acacia (native tropical trees), hawthorn (native thorny trees or shrubs), mint, and fennel. An ideal aperitif when served with seafood, oysters, and shellfish.

                    2 Replies
                    1. re: Campania
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                      bobby06877 RE: Campania Feb 21, 2007 02:24 PM

                      Thanks Campagnia. I followed your original recs and special ordered both a Fiano di Avellino and a Greco di Tufo. Macchialupa was unavailable but I was able to get both whites from one of the producers you mentioned. Terredora. I am especially looking forward to the Greco. I should have both bottles tomorrow. One of the Italian wine specialty shops I order from recommended I try a Ribolla from Movia and a Santa Chiara from Paola Bea and their advise has been stellar so I have those on the way as well.

                      1. re: bobby06877
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                        Chicago Mike RE: bobby06877 Feb 22, 2007 01:33 AM

                        in Italian whites, try also a Soave Classico Superiore from largely or 100% garganega... a really delicious wine that doesn't get enough promotion so the prices stay reasonable.

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                      Campania RE: bobby06877 Feb 22, 2007 02:41 PM

                      I'm so happy you will have the pleasure of enjoying Campanian wine! I walk through the vineyards a few times a year where Terredora has their Greco. It is truly beautiful. I hope you'll be able to sense what kind of man makes this Greco. He's serious and so is his wine-Paolo Masterberadino...

                      4 Replies
                      1. re: Campania
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                        bobby06877 RE: Campania Feb 23, 2007 07:55 AM

                        Forgot to mention, both the Greco and Fiano are from 2005. Are these ready to drink now or do I need to wait? Thanks.

                        1. re: bobby06877
                          Robert Lauriston RE: bobby06877 Feb 23, 2007 08:40 AM

                          Ready to drink. Fruity, aromatic wines like that are at their best on release. There are very few Italian whites that benefit from aging.

                          1. re: Robert Lauriston
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                            bobby06877 RE: Robert Lauriston Feb 23, 2007 08:48 AM

                            Thanks Robert, I am so used to OW reds that I automatically assume everything needs aging.

                            1. re: bobby06877
                              Robert Lauriston RE: bobby06877 Feb 23, 2007 09:15 AM

                              Most Italian reds are at their best when released as well. Though the age-worthy ones are more likely to be exported to the U.S.

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                        Campania RE: bobby06877 Feb 24, 2007 06:05 AM

                        2005 was a GREAT harvest. Drink asap. The only red from Campania that needs aging is Taurasi. Otherwise, Aglianico can opened at any time.

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