372472 Sun Feb 18 16:42:09 -0800 2007 37 35 Beer 0 2305327 I've noticed lately at more progressive dining establishments an emphasis on both wine and beer for pairing with meals. There is no doubt in my mind that categorically beer pairs better with cheese than does wine (for example). There is something about those bubbles that "scrub away" and the malt that blends with the cheese flavor. Having said that the "liquid bread" can often be a virtual meal on its own where often wine (particularly Old World French and Italian) can reach a higher plane when enjoyed with food IMHO. New World wine (for me) though can often approach beer in terms of being a "centerpiece" experience (i.e. to be appreciated without food). So is it conceivable that wine and beer could be interchangeable within the dining experience? Sun Feb 18 16:42:09 -0800 2007 26180 Chinon00 1 2305998 Personally I think wine is a better match with more varieties of cheeses than beer is, but to each his own. As for the inter-changeability of wine and beer, I can offer one cuisine where IMO that's true... spicy asian/hot Thai dishes. They pair wonderfully with a lush white like riesling or gewurztraminer, and also very nicely with a spicy wheat beer. Sun Feb 18 23:31:09 -0800 2007 2305327 42549 Chicago Mike 2 2306118 Not all beer pairs well with cheese, but the lighter Belgian styles top wine as a cheese pairing, in my book. Try an Orval, for example with a stinky cheese, and it lifts both to new heights. Stinky cheese, by contrast is very hard to pair with wine. Mon Feb 19 03:36:46 -0800 2007 2305998 10395 brentk 3 2309148 I think it's a common myth and misconception that wine is "better" with cheese. Cheese is fatty and mouth-coating, and the best beverage to work with that is one that has some effervescence. Champagne is good, beer is better. Beer has a broader range of possible flavors, which greatly enhances its cheese friendliness. Mon Feb 19 21:37:16 -0800 2007 2306118 10809 Josh 4 2309759 Josh, I think that a common myth -- that it's a common myth -- and it's usuall started by beer drinkers. ;^) Clichés exist for a reason, even though they have pver the years become clichés. I doubt the French or Italians, the Portuguese or the Spaniards would say that -- yeah, we've been telling the tourists that our cheese go best with wines because we have this secret deal with the winemakers in our courties to try to sell both, while in reality, we import thousands of barrels of Belgian ales and German beers to have with our locally made cheeses . . . The fact, Josh -- all myths and misconceptions aside -- is that there are plenty of cheeses that go great with wine, plenty of cheeses that go great with beer; there are plenty of wines that go great with cheese, and plenty of beers that do, too. Which combination a specific individual prefers is based upon their own palate preferences as well as their experience. There is no right or wrong here -- only the myth (or perhaps it's a misconception) that one is *clearly* better than the other. Tue Feb 20 07:25:34 -0800 2007 2309148 28122 zin1953 5 2309795 Google search "wine and cheese" -- 1,070,000 results Google search "beer and cheese" -- 64,500 results That's a million more results. Fundamentally I agree with you, zin, that both have a time and a place, but media and conventional wisdom have pounded into our heads "wine and cheese" to the point that it itself is a bit of a cliché. I think all us beer drinkers are asking for is a little respect and creativity among food writers, restaurants and wine drinkers, recognizing that beer has a historic and gastronomic place at the foodie table. I've been encouraged by the increased coverage and love for beer and cheese in both print and plate. Tue Feb 20 07:38:52 -0800 2007 2309759 51394 peetoteeto 6 2310865 Yes, but why does something become a cliché? Because it's true. The danger of a cliché is not that it is false, but rather its danger lies in being trapped by it. I'm not trying to stir up a hornet's nest, or revive a thread here I hope is long dead, but as long as Budweiser plays such a dominant role in American society (versus the Anchor Steams, Sierra Nevadas, and Redhooks of America . . . let alone the Chimays, etc. of the world), beer will continue to be the Rodney Dangerfield of beverages to the AVERAGE Joe. In 2000, according to one site ( http://www.beersoaksamerica.org/consumption.htm ), the US consumed 123.2 liters (27.1 gallons) per capita of beer. According to another source ( http://www.wineinstitute.org/industry/keyfacts/per_capita_wine_consumption.php ), per capita wine consumption for 2000 in the US was 8.55 liters (1.88 gallons). That's less than a case of wine, 12 "regular" bottles (750ml each). Tue Feb 20 11:49:52 -0800 2007 2309795 28122 zin1953 7 3567104 Just because wine and cheese is now a cliché doesn't mean that beer and cheese didn't have a history. If you'll notice monks are among the people that took cheese to a new level... What was the choice drink... BEER. Which they also took to new levels. Not saying wine and cheese aren't good together but beer and cheese have a history Sun Apr 06 12:15:35 -0700 2008 2310865 181270 cgort 5 2310833 The idea that there's some conspiracy afoot is purely your own inference. I certainly didn't imply, or intend to imply, any such thing. The view of wine as elevated, and beer as lower in status, came about hundreds of years ago and has unfortunately been reinforced by people who simply don't understand the history. I've encountered closed minds on both sides of the discussion. A lot of beer fans I know are not interested in wine and think of it as a snooty beverage, and the wine geeks are convinced that beer is simply what you down in large quantities at sporting events. Needless to say, both cliches are dead wrong, and there is room for both beverages at the table. That being said, in my experience beer (and no, I don't mean Corona) has always been a much better match for cheese. There are simply more flavors avialable in beer, due to the larger number of ingredients and the greater variations in production. I still like wine, and wine can certainly be enjoyable when paired with cheese. But I have to give the nod to beer in that case. For me, wine is at its best as a food accompaniment with stuff like Italian food and desserts. In all other instances, I can't help but see (the right) beer as being a superior option. By the way, the French have a long-standing beer tradition, and their bieres de gardes are some of the most incredible beers on the planet, not to mention incredibly food friendly! Considering how long bieres de gardes have been produced, one would think they'd be more generally known about. Wine bias rears its ugly head once again... Tue Feb 20 11:43:21 -0800 2007 2309759 10809 Josh 6 2311432 "The view of wine as elevated, and beer as lower in status, came about hundreds of years ago and has unfortunately been reinforced by people who simply don't understand the history" Could you elaborate? I thought that beer got a thoroughly bad reputation because of its late twentieth century associations with sports and bikinis. Tue Feb 20 13:41:57 -0800 2007 2310833 26180 Chinon00 7 2311535 I'll take a stab at this one. I started up a lobbying effort to get rid of North Carolina's archaic 6% alcohol by volume cap on beer. It was enforced for 70 years thanks to mill owners who pressured the legislature to impose this 6% cap. Why? These mill owners didn't want workers showing up to work drunk on Mondays. Of course, wine and spirits had no such cap placed upon them. It's just one local example, but it's certainly slowed North Carolina as a beer destination. Today, tax-payer-funded billboards throughout the state proclaim the wonders of North Caroina wine, yet the legislator who sponsored the bill to use tax money to promote NC wines is the (stick with me here) **same legislator** who worked tirelessly to try and kill the gourmet beer bill. Sports and bikinis don't help the situation, to be sure, but locally we've dealt with class distinctions in alcoholic beverages for decades. And in the grand scheme of things, that's recent history. Tue Feb 20 14:01:09 -0800 2007 2311432 51394 peetoteeto 8 2311577 we had the same problem here in FL with the bottle size limits on beer (was repealed a couple of years ago thank gawd.) AFAIK the same lame excuse was in place (something about preventing drunkeness) no 11.9 belgian bottles or micro 750s allowed, yet folks could go into their local convenience store and buy a big ole bottle of MD 20-20 or a quart of macro swill. go figure. now they've made it where people can cap their unfinished bottle of wine and take it home with them from a restaurant, but we still don't have growlers here in FL. again, go figure. Tue Feb 20 14:09:54 -0800 2007 2311535 51618 hitachino 7 2311687 It's not a question of a "bad reputation" per se, just a view of wine as being "more refined". According to Garrett Oliver, this really goes back to the Norman conquest of England. I suggest his book, The Brewmaster's Table, for more information on this subject. It's got some great info. http://www.amazon.com/Brewmasters-Table-Discovering-Pleasures-Real/dp/0060005718 Tue Feb 20 14:33:05 -0800 2007 2311432 10809 Josh 6 2312892 >>> Wine bias rears its ugly head once again...<<< No. Nice try. While it is true that (what is now) France has a long tradition of brewing beer, it a) mostly takes place where grains traditionally grow (i.e.: the northeast, aka Alsace-Lorraine), not grapes; and b) it wouldn't exist at all were it now for the (people we now call) Germans. Item #1. From http://www.visit-alsace.com/ . . . "The eight formative centuries of Germanic influence in Alsace were drawing to a close as the Holy Roman Empire disintegrated into the tragedy of the Thirty Years war (1618-1648). The Protestant Swedes, provoked by the French to go to the aid of the German Princes, were pitted against the Catholics headed by the house of Habsburg. Alsace was the principal battleground, the country was laid bare, its population decimated, its vineyards reduced to charred stumps, its survivors condemned to a diet of acorns, goatskins, grass and sometimes human flesh. "At the conclusion, under the terms of the peace treaty of Westphalia (1648), the Hapsburgs handed over to France all previously held rights to the province. Seduced by the promise of religious tolerance guaranteed under the Edict of Nantes, Alsace for the first time in its history became French." Item #2: From an article by Greg Glasser in Modern Brewery Age magazine, 5/10/1999: Where French Beer Comes From "The main brewing regions in France are located in Alsace-Lorraine (in the northeast, on the border with Germany) and Nord-Pas de Calais-French Flanders (in the northwest, including the French lowlands on the Belgian border). "Alsace-Lorraine produces the vast majority of French beer (80%) and one statistic reports that Alsatians drink twice the amount of beer as Germans. The area is heavily influenced by all things German, having passed back and forth between Germany and France for centuries, depending on who won the last war, and this influence applies to beer. Blonde lagers, usually sweeter, less hoppy and lighter in body than their German cousins across the border, predominate in this region. France's other brewing region is much more exciting for the beer drinker looking for full-flavored, full-bodied beers. Although lagers are also brewed here, along with the odd porter, Scotch ale, Vienna-style ale or white beer, the dominant style is one called biere de garde." Item #3. From http://www.frenchbeer.info/France/frbrewer.html (see many French names among the largest brewers, or are they Germanic?) Brasseries Fischer & Adelshoffen Brasserie Holl Brasseries Kronenbourg Brasserie Meteor (note the German spelling, rather than the French, "météore") Brasserie Schutzenberger No wine bias at all -- just historical facts. Tue Feb 20 20:55:58 -0800 2007 2310833 28122 zin1953 7 2313030 I'm not really sure what your point is. You can't just talk about breweries in Alsace as though that means anything in the context of bieres de gardes. That's like bringing up Coors or Budweiser in a discussion about American IPA. The point I am making here is that bieres de gardes are some of the best beers on the planet, they are made in France, and they are largely unknown because people don't think of France as a country that makes good beer. Nothing you said addresses any of those points. Pointing out that a lot of breweries in Alsace (where bieres de gardes are not produced) have German names means nothing in this context. Tue Feb 20 23:03:59 -0800 2007 2312892 10809 Josh 8 2313398 Josh, You wrote, "By the way, the French have a long-standing beer tradition . . . Wine bias rears its ugly head once again..." I replied that France's long-standing beer tradition is of Germanic (i.e.: non-French) historical origins. There is no questioning the quality of (most) bieres de garde, just as there is no question the quality of (most) microbreweries in the US. However, to speak of historical traditions of French brewing without mentioning Alsace is as ridiculous as speaking of the historical traditions of US brewing without mentioning Anheuser-Busch. Did AB intentionally start out to brew swill, or did they start out to brew a fine, quality lager? Did Kronnebourg. Fischer, and the rest start with the idea to brew swill? No. Same thing. You talk of "wine bias rearing its ugly head," and I speak of historical context. Wed Feb 21 06:19:02 -0800 2007 2313030 28122 zin1953 9 2313888 Yes, but you have your history wrong. http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-54773134.html You selectively quoted from that article, choosing a section that you thought reinforced your argument. However, earlier in the very same article we find this information: "The French, like most Europeans, have been making beer for centuries. The invading Romans found the Gauls drinking a fermented gram beverage that the Romans named cervisia. The Gauls called it cervoise. Charlemagne (Charles the Great, a.k.a. Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire from 800-814) brought a French brewer from Normandy to his brewery in Westphalia in Germany to teach his German subjects how to make beer. Under the reign of Louis IX, in 1250, the first French brewers' guild incorporated and the government passed laws to regulate the brewing and selling of beer." Wed Feb 21 08:53:26 -0800 2007 2313398 10809 Josh 10 2313999 Josh, I missed that paragraph upon my first read, going straight to "Where French Beer Comes From" (taking early history from the first article). I stand corrected, and appreciate your calling my attention to the error. Wed Feb 21 09:15:13 -0800 2007 2313888 28122 zin1953 1 2306319 Now I pair stinkey cheeses with either a sweet wine or a light dry wine. NEver a red, though BEer does well with a variety of cheeses. Plus, with smaller bottles, you get to try more beer with different cheeses. I using Geueze, fruit lambics, porters, sake, stouts, nut browns, lagers and wits hoppy beers ain't so good. Mon Feb 19 06:47:49 -0800 2007 2305327 11201 Diana 2 2306539 Try Epoisses or Chambertin with Burgundy . . . Mon Feb 19 08:13:00 -0800 2007 2306319 28122 zin1953 3 2314827 Here is an excellent article concerning the beer/wine/cheese debate. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/02/17/WIGHKBA1OC1.DTL "As a longtime cheese aficionado, The Chronicle's weekly cheese columnist and a nightly wine drinker, I've reluctantly concluded that many cheeses give wine, especially dry wine, a rough time. But after several weeks of "research, " including two marathon tastings, I'm convinced that beer as a partner for cheese rarely stumbles. " Wed Feb 21 12:13:54 -0800 2007 2306539 12014 LStaff 4 2315237 Cool article. Thanks for posting that link. Wed Feb 21 13:48:21 -0800 2007 2314827 10809 Josh 1 2306524 Stepping away from cheese for a moment, I prepared a meal which I paired with different beers a few years ago. It consisted of: - Smoked Salmon w/ Paulaner Hefeweizen - Served with creme fraiche/cream cheese mixture, capers, dill, lemon. - Tempura Vegetables w/ Anderson Valley IPA - The tempura batter was made with the beer. The hops and grease had an affinity for each other. - Roasted Chicken w/ Chimay Blue - Sauce was again made with the beer and served with blue cheese mash and caramelized carrots. Having said that the above could have easily been paired with a number of wines but having the option is nice. Mon Feb 19 08:10:38 -0800 2007 2305327 26180 Chinon00 1 2306582 There is no doubt -- in my mind, at least -- that BOTH wine and beer CAN enhance a meal. Some specific dishes seem specifically better suited to wine (one example might be coq au vin), while others may seem destined for beer (a hot and spicy curry, for instance), but there are many instances where it is an "either/or" situation depending solely on the personal preference of the diner/imbiber. There is some "cultural preference" to factor in, too, I suppose. Though Germany makes many outstanding wines, Germans have traditionall consumed beer with meals. The British, for example, have long consumed both. Beer is an older tradition, but after "owning" parts of France for 100+ years, and the impact of their navy and world trade dating back centuries, wine has had a long and well-established place at the dining table in Britain. France and Italy -- both of which do indeed brew beer, thanks largely to a German influence -- have traditionally preferred wine with their meals. And so on and so on . . . . But let's not forget the U.S., where it was a common sight to have diners drinking hard liquor throughout the meal in the 1960s and earlier . . . an early and very successful chain of restaurants back then was called "Scotch 'n Sirloin." Now personally I find the concept of drinking scotch with my steak "unsettling," to say the least, but clearly lots of people did . . . Mon Feb 19 08:24:12 -0800 2007 2305327 28122 zin1953 2 2306814 Just curious, has a sommelier ever suggested a beer for you meal? Mon Feb 19 09:36:08 -0800 2007 2306582 26180 Chinon00 3 2309158 Most sommeliers in my experience are pretty ignorant of beer. At least in the culinary backwater where I reside, that tends to be the case. (Though there are a few exceptions to that rule) When I was in NYC, I was blown away at how many great restaurants had great beer selections to match. There is a lot of prejudice out there about beer. What it is, what it can be, how it can taste, the complexity on display in the great ones. One local sommelier I was friendly with told me he liked "Corona with tacos". That's the mentality of too many sommeliers when it comes to beer. Give that man a Chimay Grand Reserve with some appropriately sauced venison (to pick a dish at random) and I'm sure he'll be singing a different tune. Mon Feb 19 21:43:03 -0800 2007 2306814 10809 Josh 4 2309477 Part of that ignorance is driven by profit margin. Neither the restaurant nor the server or sommelier have much incentive to steer customers to a high-end $14 Belgian dubbel if a high-end Barolo is $74. Gramercy Tavern excepted. Tue Feb 20 05:32:59 -0800 2007 2309158 51394 peetoteeto 5 2309774 I'm not even sure if "incentive" has much to do with it. Subconscious, perhaps, but most sommeliers are indeed knowledgable about wine. That's what a sommelier does. He/she is a "wine steward." But obviously the sommelier -- or the wait staff, for that matter -- is going to get a larger tip if someone buys the Barolo as opposed to the dubble. Then again, in places like Gary Danko's or The French Laundry, I'm not sure what the beer list looks like -- I never looked at it (them). Tue Feb 20 07:31:55 -0800 2007 2309477 28122 zin1953 5 2310846 I'm inclined to agree with zin on this point. While beer won't ever sell for $70 a bottle, I'm not sure that a lot of customers would opt for that instead. When I go out to eat, if there isn't a beer I'm interested in, I'll often stick with water, unless I know they have some good by-the-glass wine options. Tue Feb 20 11:46:32 -0800 2007 2309477 10809 Josh 5 2312216 Speaking to the price difference I think that it can be good for beer in one way and bad for another. A person of very modest means can afford to purchase the most highly coveted beer(s) being produced anywhere in the world today (given access). GOOD! This is obviously not true when it comes to wine (e.g. I’ve yet to come close to tasting a Prestige Cuvee Champagne). So beer is much more democratic than is wine. But it is this “exclusivity” that can make wine often appear “aspirational” and thus more prized than beer. BAD! Tue Feb 20 16:50:11 -0800 2007 2309477 26180 Chinon00 4 2309765 There are an ever-increasing list of restaurants in the SF Bay Area with better and better beer lists. But it all depends upon mood, I should think, as well as what entrée one is having. There are times when a beer is exactly what I want; other times when wine is the perfect choice. Tue Feb 20 07:28:44 -0800 2007 2309158 28122 zin1953 1 2307295 No, but sommeliers rarely suggest anything to me either way . . . I typically already know what I'm going to order before they arrive at the table, or else I've brought a bottle of something with us to the restaurant. Typically my questions to the sommelier have more to do with seeking more information due to an improper/incomplete listing on the wine list -- clarifying whether that wine (at that price!) is the "regular" or the "reserve" bottling; whether "Domaine Gros" on the wine list means Domaine Anne Gros, Domaine A.-F. Gros, Domaine Jean Gros, Domaine Michel Gros . . . . But I readily admit I'm not the typical customer, either. Mon Feb 19 11:33:11 -0800 2007 2305327 28122 zin1953 1 2307530 Another reason for flexibility are daring food combinations. For instance what wine pops into your mind to pair with lambs brains with sea urchin and sea grapes? Mon Feb 19 12:39:56 -0800 2007 2305327 26180 Chinon00 2 2308639 Perhaps a little too daring . . . that's not something I'd *ever* order. (Well done, though, for the exotic!) ;^) That particular dish aside, whoever said I wasn't "flexible" or "daring." That said, I still would like the "pairing" to work . . . which means, I suppose, that I'm much more likely to experiement on my own -- either at home (when opening bottles) or by-the-glass in restaurants. Mon Feb 19 18:02:58 -0800 2007 2307530 28122 zin1953 3 2310354 My only point was with certain more "wacky" meals there becomes possibly a need to look to other beverages to better compliment said wacky meal. Specifically, I really can't think of any wine that clearly would be more successful than any beer with "lambs brains sea urchin and sea grapes" for example. Honestly, I can't think of any beverage to pair with that particular combination. But I think that the likelihood of finding the right marriage of food and beverage, in this case, is increased by including wine, beer, or cider into the mix of possible suitors. Another example was a Chicken Liver Mousse I had coated in nuts and bread crumbs, fried and served with grapes and chutneys. Or a Duck Tartar served with haricot verts and goat cheese topped with balsamic vinegar. Tue Feb 20 10:01:49 -0800 2007 2308639 26180 Chinon00 4 2310868 There are a number of cuisines whose foods pose difficult, or simply less than ideal, wine matching. Thai? Vietnamese? Japanese? Indian? All those cuisines are not well-suited to wines, with the possible exception in some cases of a light acidic white like vinho verde or NZ sauvignon blanc. But that wouldn't really be so awesome with a creamy curry on the sweeter end of the spectrum. All those foods, and Mexican foods, are ideally paired with beers like IPAs though. The citrusy hops complement the cilantro/coriander flavors, and the malt sweetness helps out too. Another good option that goes with almost any kind of challenging food is a nice Belgian witbier or French biere de garde. Try the Castelain Blond if you can find it. Tue Feb 20 11:50:20 -0800 2007 2310354 10809 Josh 4 2310878 The only thing that would possibly go with lamb brains, sea urchin and sea grapes would be a chaser of Pepto-Bismol . . . or ipecac! ;^) Tue Feb 20 11:52:06 -0800 2007 2310354 28122 zin1953 2 2310267 blanche de chambly, la fin du monde, morimoto soba, a nice nigorizake or junmai Tue Feb 20 09:42:50 -0800 2007 2307530 11201 Diana