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Range and dishwasher recommendations

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phoebek Feb 18, 2007 12:56 PM

Thanks to everyone who reponded to my earlier query about countertops. It's looking more and more like we'll go with granite. We're also planning to replace our range and dishwasher. I've been leaning towards getting a dual fuel range, and would like to know how others have fared with them. Dacor is out of our price range, so it seems that the two leading contenders are Bosch and GE Profile, and I've seen so many conflicting opinions on both that I'm totally flummoxed!

We have a 20+ year old Kitchen Aid dishwasher that has served us well, but I believe that I read somewhere that newer Kitchen Aid appliances aren't made by the same manufacturer. Whatever the brand, I'd like to upgrade to one with a stainless steel interior. We visited the Expo Center and saw dishwashers ranging from around $800 to more than $4,000 (not a possibility)! Would anyone like to weigh in on their favorites (and least favorites)?

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  1. chowser RE: phoebek Feb 18, 2007 04:20 PM

    We have GE Profile. The dishwasher isn't great. I have to rinse the dishes by hand first, even if I use the prewash cycle. From what I've been reading, I'm not the only one who has that problem. We have the smooth top range. I love the oven--it's a great size on the inside, comes to temperature quickly, uniform heat. The stove I'm not crazy about. We have the stand alone with the controls on the back. There is a lip from the controls that blocks the back burners. The only things I can use in the back are pans or really small pots. I have been reading about the new GE Profiles Tango range/oven/slow cooker that has two ovens, one that heats high enough for a pizza. I would love to try that one.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/...

    In the picture, if you look closely, you can see (barely, though) how the back panel sticks out and is slightly over the back of the back burners.

    1 Reply
    1. re: chowser
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      phoebek RE: chowser Feb 19, 2007 06:00 AM

      Thanks for the heads up on that design flaw -- sometimes you wonder if the folks who design stoves actually cook! I'm rethinking the dual fuel -- we now have gas, and to install a dual, we'd need to do electrical reconfiguration, and I'm not sure it's actually worth the time, effort and extra cost. . .

    2. weinstein5 RE: phoebek Feb 19, 2007 06:57 AM

      That is true there has been a lot of consolidaiton on the manufacturers of appliances so you need to know who makes what because you can be looking at 2 different 'manufacturers' but still be looking at the product from the same factory - I find consumer reports helps with that -

      With that being said we just redid our kitchen and got the KitchenAid SS interior dishwashers and really enjoy them - quiet and do an outstanding job of cleaning -

      1 Reply
      1. re: weinstein5
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        Buckethead RE: weinstein5 Feb 19, 2007 08:57 AM

        Samurai Appliance Repairman has lots of great info on appliances, including this handy table:

        http://www.fixitnow.com/2002_09_01_wh...

        Which tells you which manufacturers own which brands, and hence who actually makes what. Kitchenaid is made by Whirlpool. Avoid GE like the plague.

      2. l
        Leper RE: phoebek Feb 19, 2007 08:43 AM

        Phoebek, We remodeled two years ago and are very happy with our KitchenAid dishwasher and refrigerator. I recommend Dacor's duel fuel range if you have access to gas. Outstanding results from the convection oven. (My model has an electric oven with gas broiler, a great combination.) Dacor's microwave can start a nuclear event if used in the "high" mode. Great unit though. It defrosts anything perfectly.

        1. c
          ClaireWalter RE: phoebek Feb 19, 2007 04:11 PM

          Our four-year-old KitchenAid Whisper QuietPlus has served us well. It has a stainless steel interior, IS quiet as promised and does a good job. I'm not sure whether it is necesary to rinse dishes beforehand, but I give them some of them a light rinse to remove food solids. I wish the cycle were faster -- and I do often use the Energy Saver mode for drying.

          I love our Viking range -- dual fuel, self-cleaning, convection oven, mini- and maxi-broiler options. It's 10 years old now and has been a dream to cook and bake with.

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            rtmonty RE: phoebek Feb 19, 2007 04:21 PM

            Have an Asko dishwasher, put it in 8 years ago when we remodeled. It has been flawless, not one service problem. Is completely quiet, cleans perfectly every time, all the controls on on the top of the door so smooth front, stainless inside and out. Just a great dishwasher, would buy another one in a minute.

            2 Replies
            1. re: rtmonty
              Mawrter RE: rtmonty Feb 19, 2007 04:44 PM

              I have a KitchenAid dishwasher that's about 2 years old. It was rated very highly by Consumer Reports, and of course we have lots of friends with old KitchenAid dishwashers that impressed us with their longevity.

              IT IS A TOTAL PIECE OF JUNK. It's noisy, it washes poorly, and the motor had to be replaced in less than two years.

              We have a number of friends with newer Bosches that clean _perfectly_ with no rinsing, and are practically silent.

              1. re: Mawrter
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                stuffedderma RE: Mawrter Oct 21, 2007 02:34 AM

                We also have a kitchenaid dishwasher recommended by consumer reports. An awful purchase, doesn't clean well and its noisy.

            2. c
              CrazyOne RE: phoebek Feb 19, 2007 04:35 PM

              Even the least expensive Bosch dishwasher I've found readily available here (under $600 at Lowe's) has stainless interior, no exposed heating element in the bottom, is very quiet and works very well in my experience (have had it for about a year). Going up in the range gets a few extra features and hidden controls and in a couple cases even more quiet, but even the low end is very good. (This dishwasher already outclasses everything else in the kitchen at the moment, it's a cheap house, and I don't care about the exposed controls; the white matches the white of everything else, and it replaced a 20-year-old unit that was here when I bought the place.)

              Can't speak to the fancy range, so good luck with that one. ;-)

              1 Reply
              1. re: CrazyOne
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                phoebek RE: CrazyOne Feb 20, 2007 05:43 AM

                Thanks - I'm indeed leaning toward Bosch, based on comments above, one from a friend who has one, and our contractor. . . will keep you posted.

              2. k
                kristyn RE: phoebek Feb 20, 2007 12:41 PM

                I have a Bosch and love it! Mine has a Power Scrub Plus button on it which I use when I am entertaining and have had a bit to drink. I scrap whatever food is leftover into the garbage and I just throw all the dishes in there, no rinsing. They come out looking great. One side note, peanut butter and avacado always need to be rinsed before going in the dishwasher.

                1. j
                  JABDDD RE: phoebek Feb 20, 2007 01:25 PM

                  Since I am building an entire house and don't have a lot extra left over for appliances, I ask to the poster above- what is wrong with GE? Our kitchen comes with profile appliances and hood. We have to purchase the fridge and plan on sticking with GE Profile for that as well since that is about 3-4K too. Does it have to be Bosch to be good?

                  9 Replies
                  1. re: JABDDD
                    ChefJune RE: JABDDD Feb 20, 2007 01:30 PM

                    I know quite a few prople who've returned the Bosch dishwasher.....

                    1. re: JABDDD
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                      phoebek RE: JABDDD Feb 20, 2007 04:20 PM

                      Did you see Chowser's reply? (up near the top). I'm still considering the Profile dual fuel stove. . . even with that crazy backsplash that overhangs the back burners. What I really want to know is whether it's worth getting dual fuel or if straight gas is just as good. I've always had gas, and have learned to deal with the quirks of my 25-year-old oven, but I'm really hoping that someone will tell me that an electric oven is superior.

                      1. re: phoebek
                        chowser RE: phoebek Feb 20, 2007 05:56 PM

                        What benefits do you see with electric? We have the electric smoothtop because gas isn't an option for us. If I had the choice, I would have gotten gas, no question. The GE profile does heat quickly, though, as electric goes but still can't compare to gas. The back lip is only a problem if you get the free standing range with controls in back. If it's in front, then there's no problem--I wonder if they just tried to adapt that front control one.

                        1. re: phoebek
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                          JABDDD RE: phoebek Feb 21, 2007 08:11 AM

                          I did see the reply above but it did not adequately address the blanket statement that GE's are not good, also above. I am really concerned and would like to know and thank the people who posted below in such nice terms. When you are in your mid twenties and are buying your first house, you have a lot of cookware questions, especially when you are building like we are and have to buy everything.

                          1. re: JABDDD
                            chowser RE: JABDDD Feb 21, 2007 10:03 AM

                            I wouldn't make the blanket statement that GE is not good. As I said above, there are things I like and things I don't like about the appliances. Unless they've changed the dishwasher, I would not get another one. Mine does not clean and I prewash by hand. I do like the oven, and would get another, especially the convection. I'm considering getting the microwave/convection oven (not the Advantium because you need to use a round pan with it which is not practical). I would not get the smooth top again, too hard to clean and you have to be careful about scratching. Plus, with the model we have, I can't place a griddle or roasting pan across two burners (to make gravy). There are models where you can do that. My biggest problem, which I mentioned above, with the free standing is that the back lip makes the back two burners almost unusable. When you come down to it, the only times I use the four burners are when we're having company and I'm making large quantities of things. When you can't use a large pot in back, it's a problem. I do love the little warmer on the stove, perfect for rising dough. These are just my personal observations from having the GE Profile and might not be relevant to what you want. They do look nice, though. And, I'm curious about the new oven, the GE Profile Tango, which goes high enough to bake pizzas in the smaller oven and can be used as a slow cooker in the bottom.

                            1. re: JABDDD
                              jfood RE: JABDDD Feb 21, 2007 10:07 AM

                              The GE dishwasher had major issues several years ago and it was a persona non gratis for many homeowners, kitchen designers and developers. A believe there was a massive recall as well.

                              1. re: jfood
                                chowser RE: jfood Feb 21, 2007 10:23 AM

                                I'll check into this--thanks!

                          2. re: JABDDD
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                            CrazyOne RE: JABDDD Feb 20, 2007 06:01 PM

                            I dunno if there's anything wrong with GE. GE is so many different lines, though, and they come from various manufacturers these days. Can't speak to the range stuff (nothing but a cheapo in this house, electric Frigidaire). Dishwasher-wise, well, the one that I replaced was a GE that ran most likely for the 23 years from when the house was built to when I replaced it. It seemed to be that age. Not a bad lifespan for such an appliance. But there's always the chance that "they don't build 'em like they used to".

                            In my case, I was looking for a dishwasher at a moderate price point, just enough to get one that worked well and had decent sound insulation to be quiet, somewhere in the vicinity of $500 before installation. I actually arranged to get the Kenmore at that point, as I wasn't really focused on the stainless interior or such. Then, Sears dropped the ball and never arranged for the install. So I said screw them and had the order cancelled. Instead went for the Bosch at Lowe's, a bit more initially but had extra rebates that evened out the price, and the install was smooth. The Bosch having the stainless and the flow-through heat element (put plastic in the bottom rack with no issue; even some expensive models still have an exposed element down there) were just bonuses. I think it's a fine machine at its price point. If you spend more, there are a number of choices that begin to even out. I don't think GE's models in the $600 and under price range are as appealing as the Bosch. I dunno what the more expensive GE's do.

                            Yes, true, not everyone likes them. Biggest complaint I've seen: it doesn't dry that well. I don't care about that, but we have a Bosch in the kitchen at work as well (full kitchen, very nice, better than the one I have here), and that's what they complain about. Also, I've never had this actually be an issue, but it has a manual filter instead of the automatic grinder things or whatever that are in some other models.

                            It doesn't have to be Bosch to be good at all. Not sure if I would get a Bosch for any other appliance, but the dishwasher seems to work well. The nasty Frigidaire fridge is noisier than the dishwasher! But it works and the range works and I'm not in a position to replace them right now. One thing I would suggest is that you don't need everything to come from the same brand. Just match colors or do the custom cabinet fronts or whatever your goal is and weigh reliability and most appealing features in your price range for each appliance regardless of brand.

                            BTW phoebek, a *good* electric oven might be superior, but generically an electric oven over a gas oven, I can't see any evidence for that as a blanket statement. Heck, if you have a 25-year-old gas oven, a newer gas oven might already be superior. Dual fuel while sounding good in theory always sounds like (from what I read) it has more reliability issues.

                            1. re: CrazyOne
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                              phoebek RE: CrazyOne Feb 21, 2007 08:40 AM

                              I'm starting to agree more and more with your last paragraph. BTW, the last time we got something from Sears (2 refrigerators), the delivery people managed to gouge a piece out of the ceiling in our stairwell. Sears basically passed the buck,saying that it was the fault of the delivery folks, and the delivery folks chose not to respond at all. That was the last time we'll ever get anything--or at least anything that needs to be delivered-- from Sears!

                          3. ChefJune RE: phoebek Feb 20, 2007 01:29 PM

                            I love my JennAir pro style range and JennAir dishwasher! I've had them since Christmas of 05, and have loved every minute. When I bought them, they were among the top rated for efficiency and performance in Consumer Reports, and that's what steered me away from a Viking range..... Whew!

                            1. foodseek RE: phoebek Feb 20, 2007 01:41 PM

                              I have a Miele dishwasher for 6 years and love it. It replaced a GE which I thought I liked before getting the Miele. First of all it cleans and sparkles better than handwashing. It also is quiet sometimes I am not sure I have turned it on. Washer has a separate silverware tray on top,middle rack for glasses, and bottom rack for dishes. Very large capacity for loads and several cycles to choose from. The service is through Miele (yearly maintenance checkups) and they call you back after service to see if everything is working properly. I remember hesitating before buying it because of the cost but I have no regrets. Money well spent.

                              1. vicki_vale RE: phoebek Feb 20, 2007 05:54 PM

                                I have a six month old 18" Miele dw at home which is great. My only complaint is that the rack layout doesn't hold up my pots & pans, so they lie flat and hog up space.

                                I also have a year-old 18" Avanti dw at work. (I know, a very un-fashionable brand). It's white with a stainless interior and it's also working great. In fact, I'm able to load more dishes into the Avant because of the rack layout and it dries better than the Miele. It also works on a shockingly efficient 3.5 gallons of water. Even though the plastic door seems a bit less sturdy than the Miele's stainless, it cost half the price so I feel it was a total deal by comparison.

                                1. c
                                  Cheesy Oysters RE: phoebek Feb 21, 2007 08:52 AM

                                  Well we have a GE dual range, dishwasher, and Profile fridge. I'm happy with all of them. The range has plenty of BTUs for my taste and the 4 burner arrangement works well. The dishwasher is really quiet and I love that you can dump of bottle of dishwashing cleaner into the unit and that's it for about 45 loads. Fridge is great. At the time--about a year ago--I checked Consumer Reports and all were rated highly but that doesn't seem to be the case now. I was also concerned about repair records. For our budget, I'm very happy with all of them. We eliminated the double ovens and replace it with a convenction microwave that has come in handy the few times I need an extra oven. The one thing I didn't plan for enough was the hood. I got a Fridgidaire after looking at CFMs, design, and cost. I like it and I use it--some friends have hoods that are so noisy they don't use them but I might have installed it differently. I would look into installing the motor in the attic to cut down on the noise. It does the job and looks good but I thought of the hood as less important than the other appliances but I wouldn't again. Good luck.

                                  1 Reply
                                  1. re: Cheesy Oysters
                                    chowser RE: Cheesy Oysters Feb 21, 2007 09:55 AM

                                    Can you put dirty dishes in the dishwasher and have them come out clean? It's a problem I've been struggling with with my GE Profile. It seemed like one of the complaints I've read about with it, but maybe they've changed them in the past couple of years.

                                  2. c
                                    Cheesy Oysters RE: phoebek Feb 21, 2007 10:02 AM

                                    They do come out clean. I need to actually read the manual to maximize the drying on the plastic stuff--I think there is a plastic cycle. Just checked and there is. I also love the short cycle when we want to run a quick load between apps and dessert.

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                                      pitterpatter RE: phoebek Feb 21, 2007 10:15 AM

                                      I'm not wild about my Kitchenaid DW, but I am in love with my GE Profile stove. I am a professional chef, and considered buying a 36" Wolf range, but for a quarter of the price settled on a stove with a convection oven, all gas, and it has a huge oven with three racks. I couldn't be happier, and it cost, like, $1,200. The top burners could be a bit hotter, but that is okay for now. I would never go with a dual energy stove -- don't know why -- but I have a bugaboo about electricity and food -- not enough control. My advice is to spend the extra amount for a convection feature in the oven, which will cost another $200 or so. If you ever want advice about refrigerators, on this I have plenty to say.

                                      1 Reply
                                      1. re: pitterpatter
                                        chowser RE: pitterpatter Feb 21, 2007 10:24 AM

                                        I agree about the convection. We aren't planning on staying in our house for more than a few years so I passed on it but in hindsight, I wish I had gotten the convection oven, just for the few years.

                                      2. jfood RE: phoebek Feb 21, 2007 10:15 AM

                                        So Phoebek, we move from the counters to the appliances.

                                        Design wise you have to first decide on whether you want it flush with the other cabinets or have it jut out. Then you have to decide whether you want it to have a panel (in line with your cabinet faces) or do you want a color or SS. Jfood recommends flush style (I do not want to catch my hip on the edge walking by) as well as a panel built by your carpenter with the same cabin face as your cabinets.

                                        Manufacturer - Silence is golden. If you go with the flush front you will be somewhat limited to high end products, Aska, Bosch and Miele. We went with the Miele flush mount with the cabinet panel. The controls are on the lip when you open it, has several settings (each understandable for a 10-year old), cleans like a dream, is so silent that i sometimes put my ear against it to see if it is on and has the silverware laid out on a nice third rack. The rack is removeable, i carry it to the silverware drawer and all done. I know many who have the Bosch and this is the first I have heard that there were any issues.

                                        We did double wall ovens and a cooktop, so i can not give any guidance on a free standing, although I can give you some pointers if you wish.

                                        Just post below if you want the Jfood view of cooktops, wall ovens and freestanders.

                                        4 Replies
                                        1. re: jfood
                                          foodseek RE: jfood Feb 21, 2007 10:32 AM

                                          Exactly jfood- I have done the same thing with my Miele dishwasher-it is so quiet sometimes I don't know if it is on.

                                          1. re: jfood
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                                            phoebek RE: jfood Feb 22, 2007 02:37 PM

                                            Thanks so much, jfood - I'd love to hear your views on freestanders, since that's what we'll be getting. We're not doing a total renovation, just updating a bit and replacing a couple of superannuated (but still working) appliances. A chef friend got really excited when I told him I was considering dual fuel--especially when he heard about the convection oven. The question is which one to get. . .

                                            1. re: phoebek
                                              jfood RE: phoebek Feb 22, 2007 03:25 PM

                                              Although we did not have room for a freestaner i was most concerned about knob location. We did not want the knobs on the rear of the unit for satety reasons and with a couple of pre an teen girls we were concerned about the front knobs. At that time no one made child-considered front knobs.

                                              WRT convection, its a must have for me. I use it ALL the time. On the heating source after growing up with gas, mid-marriage forced me into an electric kitchen. After a couple of years of this i said screw it, call a propane company and the following weekend had a 250 gallon tank in the woods, a line to the house and a new gas cooktop.

                                              Sorry i could not go deeper on the freeatander but it failed early in the decision tree.

                                              1. re: jfood
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                                                phoebek RE: jfood Feb 22, 2007 03:58 PM

                                                Thanks for the input - kids don't figure into our equation, but I'll certainly be mindful of knob placement. Glad to hear that you're cooking with gas!

                                          2. g
                                            Gabbeh RE: phoebek Feb 22, 2007 04:05 PM

                                            I had a thermador dual fuel for about 10 years and just replaced it with a GE profile gas only convection. I don't miss the electric oven. The gas oven heats up very quickly and I prefer the gas broiler. And the extra high and extra low burners on the stovetop are terrific. I was cooking some sauce on the simmer burner and the low flame at its lowest was actually too low to maintain a simmer. And the 5th burner griddle is very handy--although I wish it were a bit hotter

                                            1 Reply
                                            1. re: Gabbeh
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                                              phoebek RE: Gabbeh Feb 27, 2007 12:40 PM

                                              Just saw your post - I've pretty much decided to go with gas only convection and like the GE profile for the size of its oven. Its spec sheet says the oven is 6 cu.ft., and many others are between 4.5 and 5. I still haven't gone to look at the ovens, but on paper (or rather, online) the GE seems to be the strongest contender.

                                            2. s
                                              sianyoga RE: phoebek Feb 28, 2007 12:48 PM

                                              I replaced a 4-year-old GE Profile with a Bosch. The Profile was not cleaning the dishes

                                              1 Reply
                                              1. re: sianyoga
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                                                phoebek RE: sianyoga Mar 6, 2007 10:31 AM

                                                Haven't actually bought yet, but am leaning towards Bosch for both dishwasher and stove--all gas convection for the stove.

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                                                warthawgs RE: phoebek Oct 21, 2007 11:58 AM

                                                We also have a fairly new GE profile that doesn't wash well at all. What's the point of having a dishwasher if you have to wash all the dishes before loading! GRRRR

                                                Spend the extra money to get the chopping feature. It's well worth it. We have a slightly older Kenmore that does a fantastic job by the way.

                                                I'd like a dual fuel stovetop also but both my range, stovetop self cleaning units are going strong after 30 years so I guess I can live with them a little while longer.

                                                I can't see that adding a 220 line for a stove would be pricey at all. If it is you're getting ripped off unless you just don't have any outlets nearby or access is limited with a two story home. We added a 220 for a dryer ourselves with no problems at all. Just ran it in parallel with a 220 electric heater line and got our electrician to add another breaker for it and check our work.

                                                1. c
                                                  cheeriaid RE: phoebek Nov 1, 2007 10:36 AM

                                                  Go with the state of the art stainless steel GE Profile dishwasher. This dishwasher is so quiet, I'm not aware that it is even running.

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                                                    masha RE: phoebek Nov 1, 2007 11:31 AM

                                                    Whirlpool acquired Kitchen Aid in about 1986-87; so your dishwasher may predate the acquisition. Ours was bought in 1989 (i.e. post acquisition) and it is still going strong. I can't speak to the durability and features of the more recent models, but can say, based on our experience, that the Whirlpool acquisition would not be the reason for any deterioration in durability, etc.

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