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Copper cookware - Falk vs. Bourgeat

s
somuchfoodsolittletime Feb 16, 2007 03:35 PM

Currently I have a variety of old Calphalon (1990) and Magnalite pieces but would like something newer. The Calphalon pieces I don't use much have all de-anodized and the ones I've used a lot have little nicks and scratches.

When I visited Broadway Panhandler, the Bourgeat 9.5 inch saute pan seemed unbalanced with too much weight in the handle. Has anyone tried the Falk? I prefer no Mauviel. How about the maintenance of the stainless steel and copper? I don't mind the patina as long as it doesn't change the conductivity. Some people seem to prefer the easier maintenance of the brushed finish.

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  1. d
    davidmatthews Feb 18, 2007 07:10 PM

    Traditional French pot makers question the logic behind copper and stainless. They claim stainless is a poor heat conductor. Only tin exploits copper's cooking potential to it's maximum. The copper outer in stainless/copper requires just as much cleaning as stainless/ tin. Most chefs would agree that all copper requires regular cleaning. I've cooked for years with two copper stainless Swiss Spring Line pans, one round one oval. They are quite good but I do prefer the heavier copper of the tin lined models which I also have. In my opinion, balance is something one can get used and adjust to. The heating qualities are much more important in how they balance with your stovetops performance and your own personal cooking style.

    1. ttriche Feb 22, 2007 09:34 AM

      Stainless is a poor heat conductor. However, 0.008" of stainless (eight-thousandths of an inch) on top of a tenth-inch of copper should not ruin the thermal transfer from the copper to the food so much that it cancels out the Joy of Retinning.

      The thin stainless on my heavy ss-lined copper frying pan does not seem to cut down on the heat transfer, and we can gouge away with metal utensils to our heart's desire without imperiling a soft tin lining. For an evasee or a saucier, I could see tin being less of a problem (there was an older 6-pound Bridge 9-inch evasee on eBay recently, probably 3.5mm+ tinned copper, which went for only $80!!!) but I am such a clod that I would whisk away the lining within a year's time. And then it's $3-5 per inch diameter to re-tin the pan. D'oh!

      Falk's finish is lower maintenance than Bourgeat, though prices now seem to be comparable if one shops around (eg. the Bourgeat guy in Dallas vs. the Falk wholesaler in Belgium). It seems that Falk's USA distributor only sells their pieces online, although Bridge Kitchenware might be able to lay their hands on a piece for you. Worth a try, at least.

      2 Replies
      1. re: ttriche
        p
        Patday12 Feb 27, 2012 04:23 PM

        I am hoping to pick up some Falk but the only seller I come across is their sole US distributor which has pretty high pricing. I also tried Googling Mr. van Noortegart whose name pops up regarding Falk in this forum but I can't find anything on him. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

        1. re: Patday12
          n
          NotJuliaChild Feb 27, 2012 06:36 PM

          Michael Harp has exclusive distribution rights in North America. Copperpans.com is the only place you will find Falk for sale.

          Used pieces sometimes come up for sale on eBay.

      2. emily Feb 26, 2007 05:16 PM

        I have a Falk piece and a Mauviel piece and the maintenance on the Falk is amazingly low in comparison. I haven't had to polish the Falk yet.

        1. s
          somuchfoodsolittletime Feb 26, 2007 07:29 PM

          OK, so I've now seen the Bourgeat saute pan at Broadway Panhandler and the Mauviel at Bridge. I like the cleaner handles of the Mauviel, especially how it attaches to the pan. It seems easier to clean than the rim on the Bourgeat. However, the rolled rim is supposed to make the pan stronger and easier to pour. All the 2.5mm pans are supposed to use copper/steel from Falk as they hold the patent though Spring Switzerland invented something similar years ago. Also, supposedly Mauviel makes the pans for Bourgeat now. Cooking-wise, all these pans have the same performance allegedly.

          Are the cast-iron handles the same between Falk and Bourgeat? Angles and thickness and comfort in the hand (the last being relative as they are all about 8 or 10lb beasts).

          It seems ridiculous that all these pans have rivets which are hard to keep sanitary. Are the little ones in Falk strong enough for decades of (home) use?

          Pricewise, the best price for Bourgeat seems Ebay or the guy in Texas, e.g. $220 for the 11 inch. The Belgian guy on Ebay has the Falk for $213 plus shipping and possibly duties which is a lot cheaper than the US distributor.

          3 Replies
          1. re: somuchfoodsolittletime
            ttriche Mar 16, 2007 12:24 PM

            HAven't had my Falk for decades so I can't tell you whether the rivets will last forever, but a couple of pieces arrived from Belgium today and they make my non-Falk copper pans feel like lightweight junk. The handles are balanced right on The Beast (11" saucier-cum-sautepan) and are just-balanced-enough on the mousseline pan (I believe the assumption is that you will have at least a little bit of sauce in that pan) that it does not fall over unless provoked. I very much like the shape of the mousseline pan for whisking, it has no dead spots at all.

            The handles on the Bourgeat pieces are a little bit thicker than the Falk handles and attach much lower on the cooking vessel. I prefer the Falk attachment point. I measured prior to ordering (actually, the eBay guy measured for me -- Michael Harp seems like a nice guy, but Mr. van Noortegart actually got the job done) to be sure that the Beast would fit into my oven -- no sense having a 9 pound pan that can't be tossed into the oven. He was prompt and precise and he vastly underestimates shipping time from Belgium -- my pans made it in 3 days from Brussels.

            It is frightening when a 6.5" reduction pan weighs as much as a 10" Lagostina frypan. But, that's Falk for you. The stainless layer is almost so thin as to be invisible yet they warranty it for life -- I am very impressed so far.

            1. re: ttriche
              w
              winepig Mar 20, 2011 10:26 AM

              I wish I knew of Mr. van Noortegart before I bought my pans. Amongst the dozen or so pieces I purchased, 2 of them have defective SS linings which have pitted over the years. Despite the fact that these pieces are used sparingly and never have salt added to them, they have pitted badly. Unfortunately for me, the above-mentioned U.S. distributor arbitrarily decided that I must be at fault for using salt crystals in the pieces. There was not so much as an offer to have the pans shipped back for a professional evaluation.(It should be noted that, according to the American distributor, I was his first on-line customer) In addition, the home office did not reply to my queries.

              So, CAVEAT EMPTOR with regards to the alleged "life time" warranty. In fairness, it should be noted that all my other pieces are as sound and free of pitting as the day I first used them...

            2. re: somuchfoodsolittletime
              r
              RGC1982 Oct 31, 2007 06:09 PM

              Careful with the Mauviel handles. If you choose brass, they get hot. Stick to the iron Mauviel handles, which are standard on Falk.

            3. w
              wysiwyg248 Oct 31, 2007 11:58 AM

              FYI: I was told by Falk Culinair personnel in Wespelaar, Belgium -just outside Leuven- they produce the base material (Cu+SS) for Mauviel cookware since they are the sole producers of high pressure Cooper and SS bimetal.
              I suspect they also supply other European brands too.

              1. d
                duckyboy Dec 27, 2008 09:23 AM

                As it's almost been two years since your original query, so I'm certain you've decided which brand of copper cookware to purchase. But I figured I'd weigh in for others interested in making the move to high quality copper. I've been using Falk for about four years, and own about 12 pieces. I've also purchased Bourgeat, Baumalu and Mauviel pieces while traveling in France, mostly for comparison purposes. For my money nothing comes close to Falk, it's hands down the best cookware made. The heat distribution is unbelievable; the pans heat up fast and respond to flame adjustments quickly; the surface is, for all intents and purposes, absolutely non-stick (you've got to be a hack cook to get things to stick, period); it deglazes beautifully; and the cooking surface is as low maintenance as it gets. My only beef is keeping the copper surface clean. Frankly, I like the look of worn, oxidized copper, but my 10" saute pans are black on the sides and bottom, and I just don't have the time to scour them after each use. I'm sure the carbon build-up on the outside has some effect on the cooking properties, but I haven't noticed any change. If you're okay parting with $200-plus per piece, then go for the Falk, they'll outlive you by 200 years and your kids and their kids will thank you. One last thing, you'll read here and on other blogs that tin-lined copper is the way to go. It's true that that combination is either the first or second most conductive combination (I think silver- or nickel-lined copper is more efficient), but you need to consider three things: first, the tin could react with acid (tomato, citrus); second, you have to be very careful in your choice of cooking utensils as the tin scratches easily; and third, depending on use and wear, you need to get the cooking surface re-tinned (not cheap). By the way, I'm not affiliated with Falk, in fact, buying it is one of the few headaches as you can only get it on line.

                2 Replies
                1. re: duckyboy
                  t
                  ThreeGigs Dec 27, 2008 03:19 PM

                  "first, the tin could react with acid (tomato, citrus)"
                  -False. Nitric or hydrochloric acids, yes. But not acids typically found in food.

                  1. re: ThreeGigs
                    d
                    duckyboy Dec 28, 2008 08:42 AM

                    "False. Nitric or hydrochloric acids, yes. But not acids typically found in food."
                    - I stand corrected. What i should have said is that acidic foods like tomato sauces and citric reductions can wind up tasting metallic when cooked in a tin-lined pan that's in need of re-tinning (and I'm not talking about flea market finds, either). I've got some Baumalu that's showing signs of needing re-tinning, but they're still useful pans. I won't cook with acidic ingredients in those pans...

                    Just curious, ThreeGigs, but do you cook acidic things in cast iron?

                2. k
                  krbtv Apr 6, 2009 03:52 PM

                  Falk! Falk has a brushed finish that is easier to keep up. Bourgeat has a mirror finish. You can look throuh the bottom of a bourgeat pan and use the mirror finish to comb your hair with.

                  1 Reply
                  1. re: krbtv
                    k
                    krbtv Apr 8, 2009 06:44 PM

                    Attached are two photos. The bourgeat photo shows the bottom of an 11 inch Bourgeat frypan. The mirror finish allows you to see the two Falk pots on the stove and everything else in the kitchen.

                    The other image (with the tape measure) shows the Falk with it's brush finish.

                    My preference is the brushed finish because it's beautiful and easy to keep clean. Both pot brands work about the same since Falk provides the copper to Bourgeat. You can get informatio non Bourgeat by going to Google. Falk can only be bought at copperpans.com .

                    I hope this helps.

                    Good luck.

                     
                     
                  2. Soop Apr 7, 2009 03:01 AM

                    So where can you get Falk in the UK?
                    They do the 3.0 qt saucier as the "trial" pan, and it works out at about £190 at the moment. That's bloody expensive.

                    3 Replies
                    1. re: Soop
                      Demented Apr 7, 2009 09:04 AM

                      Google Falk Culinair.

                      Yes Falk is expensive, and in my opinion worth every dime.

                      1. re: Demented
                        Soop Apr 8, 2009 01:16 AM

                        I've tried. I sent them an email, so we'll see what they say

                        1. re: Soop
                          s
                          susie_q Sep 26, 2009 02:47 AM

                          Falk has a try me 1.5 quart saucier , 2.5mm for only $185. If you are a first time customer you get a 60 dollar discount. So the pan is only $125! No taxes. Also, the shipping for me was only $11. So $136 total for the best saucier in the world :) 1.5 quart is the perfect size for me as my all-clad copper core 1 quart is too small (and too lightweight) and my all-clad stainless 2 quart is too big (and not copper and no rolled rim/flared lip ..)

                          I am going to sell my all-clad sauciers and keep this falk for life.

                    2. w
                      willw Apr 27, 2009 02:18 PM

                      I own several pieces of both brands. only difference to me is brushed vs non. The thin stainless lining is immediately responsive to heat change (don't let the tin purists convince you otherwise) , and wonderfully resistant to abuse. I use wet and dry sandpaper sometimes to get really tough stuff off the surface; tin would not be able to take that. Normally very easy to clean - fill pan with water, let sit for an hour and a scrubbing pad will take care of just about anything, unless you really burn something on there. I have also found that resigning oneself to having brown pans is a good thing; you can go crazy polishing the exteriors. I do so once every yr or two but they work just as fine with a bit of oxidation, and they oxidize in a day or two. The brushed Falks are marginally easier to keep clean, if only because food cannot get a purchase on the finish, perhaps.

                      Falks offered 25% off today, as info.

                      17 Replies
                      1. re: willw
                        k
                        krbtv Apr 27, 2009 04:31 PM

                        Where did you get the 25% off at from Falk? I went to copperpans.com and did not see a sale.

                        1. re: krbtv
                          d
                          DMB Apr 29, 2009 02:53 PM

                          What do folks think about All-Clad Copper Core?

                          1. re: DMB
                            k
                            krbtv May 21, 2009 06:37 PM

                            The Cop R Chef has less than 1/32 inch of copper, so I suspect the Copper Core is the same.

                            Has anyone tried Falk's 3.0 quart Sauciere? I have yet to find anything that cooks as well as my copper. I'm thinking about getting the 3 quart sauciere - I already have the 1.5 quart Sauciere Try Me piece.

                            1. re: krbtv
                              g
                              GH1618 Dec 1, 2011 09:57 PM

                              I've seen it reported that the copper core is about .9 mm, but that's second hand information. I can't vouch for it. That would be enough for its purpose, however, which is merely to improve heat distribution throughout the pan compared to the tri-ply stainless/aluminum pans. Copper-core does not compare with copper pans.

                              1. re: GH1618
                                Chemicalkinetics Dec 1, 2011 10:10 PM

                                GH,

                                Copper core has two layer of aluminum in it, making it really a 5-ply cookware. Like you accurately said, the copper improves both heat distribution and thermal response. The copper on Cop R Chef's copper is very thin and is really meant for the look. All Clad sale personals have admitted as such. Copper core copper is not just for the look. For one, it is inside, so it is certainly not for "look"

                                1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                  g
                                  GH1618 Dec 1, 2011 10:43 PM

                                  Chem, yes, I know copper core is five-ply, and I haven't had anything to say about Cop R Chef. It's clear that the latter is just for looks. Neither line competes with copper pans, but only with SS/aluminum tri-ply. The exterior stainless on tri-ply is also for looks. Some people like shiny pans. I don't care and use MC2.

                                  1. re: GH1618
                                    Chemicalkinetics Dec 1, 2011 11:00 PM

                                    GH,

                                    I wasn't really correcting you. I wanted to spell it out more just in case others people may not know. As for the Cop R Chef's, I do want to clarify my position. The cookware is completely functional. The cookware itself is not "just for the look". The copper display is.

                                    In my view, the All Clad copper core should be a bit better than the All Clad stainless steel triply, but I cannot say the same for Cop R Chef.

                                    "The exterior stainless on tri-ply is also for looks"

                                    I agree with your other posts and disagree with you on this post. I think the exterior stainless on triply is primary for convenient and secondary for look. Stainless steel exterior surface is easy to take care off. You don't have to worry about rust or oxidization, you can put it in dishwasher, you can soak it in a bath of water over the weekend.....etc.

                                    That is not the same for Cop R Chef. The copper exterior of Cop R Chef does not enhance the convenience factor. In fact, it is worse than the aluminum under layer, so the copper exterior is actually making it less convenient. Thus, it is really just for the look.

                                    1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                      g
                                      GH1618 Dec 1, 2011 11:13 PM

                                      No offense taken, but I meant to compare the SS exterior of tri-ply to my MC2. I don't worry about oxidation or stains. I just wash it to get it clean — the outside tends to acquire stains. Those who want the outside to look shiny would buy SS tri-ply instead of MC2. I suppose using the dishwasher could be thought a convenience, but it has never occurred to me to wash most of my pots in the dishwasher.

                                      1. re: GH1618
                                        Chemicalkinetics Dec 1, 2011 11:18 PM

                                        Now, I understand. MC2 is a good performer line.

                                        1. re: GH1618
                                          kaleokahu Dec 2, 2011 09:48 AM

                                          Hi, GH1618:

                                          Do you know the total thickness of the two aluminum layers in MC2? A-C's cross-section diagram is obviously not to scale (the same trick the "waterless" cookware manufacturers use). If you have a micrometer, we can make an educated guess...measure the total wall thickness, and then subtract 0.46mm (which is A-C's standard lining thickness). Compare the result with Demeyer Atlantis (2mm copper) and Apollo (about 4mm aluminum) and Falk (2.5mm copper).

                                          Aloha,
                                          Kaleo

                              2. re: DMB
                                m
                                mateo21 May 21, 2009 07:26 PM

                                AC Copper-Core has more than a plating of copper on the exterior... it's a 5 ply SS/Al/Copper/Al/SS. It's a neat looking pan, but there is certainly more Aluminum in there than copper, and most likely SS too, unfortunately.

                                1. re: mateo21
                                  k
                                  krbtv May 21, 2009 07:47 PM

                                  The plating of copper on the exterior is the Cop R Chef. I belive the copper core has the same amount of copper which is less that 1/32nd of an inch. The cookware cooks nicely (cop r chef) but turns colors when you cook with it. It seemed as if the copper was washing off when I washed it. It fried onions really well.

                                  1. re: krbtv
                                    m
                                    mateo21 May 22, 2009 11:23 AM

                                    Copper-Core has more than cop-r-chef which is just a plating; which all-clad has admitted is just for looks.

                                    1. re: mateo21
                                      k
                                      krbtv May 22, 2009 12:10 PM

                                      Ok. It's nice to know they admitted it's just for looks. I wish I had a cross section of the CopperCore to find out how much copper is in it. Too bad I can't afford to buy a pan just to cut it up.

                                      1. re: krbtv
                                        b
                                        BruceMcK May 22, 2009 02:13 PM

                                        KRBTV, There are some blurry pictures and discussion on the egullet forum at the following link:
                                        http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?s...

                                        1. re: BruceMcK
                                          k
                                          krbtv May 22, 2009 05:40 PM

                                          The copper amount seems to be pretty impresive - especially if that is the amount of copper on the lid and not just the outter portion. If you look a Amazon's page you can see the amount of copper in the Cop R chef http://www.amazon.com/All-Clad-Cop-R-...

                                          Maybe next time I go to Williams Sonoma I'll look at the lid of the Copper Core and take a photo of it with my measuring tape.

                            2. re: willw
                              s
                              someguy Jul 9, 2009 07:25 PM

                              fyi 9 July, Falk has a special on stainless steel lined copper. said it is a trial run. 1.8mm copper + the stainless, $495. for three piece and two lids.

                              so, is falk stainless the ticket? as opposed to tin?

                            3. e
                              edroyce Oct 24, 2009 08:54 AM

                              I hope nobody minds if I ask a couple questions:

                              1. I understand all about the tinning process, I'm an amateur metalworker/smith, but I'm curious as to whether or not it is possible to deposit a layer of carbon on the inside of a unlined copper pan a la cast iron?

                              I'm in the process of moving so everything is in storage so testing this out myself is a bit difficult. I'll probably just go get a small piece of sheet copper to experiment on. I assume the reason has to do with discoloring or disfiguring the copper exterior during the carbonization process. But I would think a hard carbon inner lining would be superior to most other materials. It's hard, non-reactive and has a thermal conductivity of about twice that of tin.

                              2. Is a uniform thickness of copper necessary or would a thick copper base with thinner copper sides, for reduced weight, be a better solution?

                              I assume that it is either simplicity of manufacturing or perhaps the need for the extra metal to hold heat that is the reason for a uniform thickness.

                              3. What about an all copper pan with a base of different metal bonded to the copper pan?

                              If the copper pan isn't exposed directly to the flame wouldn't you get the thermal benefits of the copper pan without the maintenance issues?

                              Any and all responses would be extremely welcome. I'm thinking of hand making a set of copper pans, pots and such for myself and I'm curious about some of these issues before I start assembling the molds, jigs and copper sheets.

                              3 Replies
                              1. re: edroyce
                                h
                                HokieAnnie Oct 24, 2009 01:24 PM

                                I studied metalsmithing in college and dabbled in it for a decade before other priorities with my $$$ took over. I imagine that the copper oxides formed are nasty tasting and possibly dangerous to consume in larger quantities. As a non-ferrous metal Copper doesn't "carbonize" but instead oxidizes. Ferrous and non-ferrous do not play well together -- in the pre-industrial age you would not see iron combined copper.

                                Less expensive pots have a metal disc bottom and thinner sides btw. And you gotta heat the pan or else your food won't cook so anything would need to be "exposed to the flame".

                                1. re: HokieAnnie
                                  withabandon Dec 14, 2009 01:16 PM

                                  What an interesting discussion--- someone asked about all clad copper clad-- They are essentially the same as their LT D models, which I have and are really excellent cookware. The copper clad ones are not really copper in their responsiveness, they only look like copper. If all you want is the look, that's fine and they are much cheaper than actual copper cookware. I'm just starting my collection of actual copper cookware and I love the Falk saucier i have, though the lid that I got to go with it, won't oxidize and I don't know why.

                                2. re: edroyce
                                  o
                                  oceanblue Jan 16, 2010 10:35 PM

                                  I am not a metal worker but I had the same thoughts about copper/cast. Am very interested in what you learned and or how the process was going.

                                  PS. Taking a good look at Falk, curious where I'll find the best price. I have to say I have the tin lined Ruffoni and I absolutely love it.

                                3. Capitol Chef Jun 23, 2010 07:23 AM

                                  Came across this Ebay listing for a Falk Copper Casserole 5.5 qt. Thought some of you might be interested.

                                  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...

                                  1. Capitol Chef Jun 23, 2010 07:27 AM

                                    Falk Copper Casserole on Ebay (brand new), FYI

                                    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...

                                    1. d
                                      damiano Jun 23, 2010 02:07 PM

                                      Have seen Falk in our shop but somehow was more inclined to buy Mauviel. Is there a difference in performance between these two?

                                      1. kaleokahu Jun 24, 2010 07:55 PM

                                        Buy American! Especially since we now make the best (again). http://www.organic-cookware.com/

                                        1. c
                                          Chipped Ham Oct 15, 2010 12:28 PM

                                          I have owned and used the Falk 4 L chef's pan or saucier for about 10 years. It's remarkable, durable, and has all the attributes mentioned by others here. The satin finish doesn't need much attention. If you do clean it I found out that our dear old Barkeeper's Friend does a super job. It really performs outstandingly while making risotto.

                                          1 Reply
                                          1. re: Chipped Ham
                                            t
                                            tummoi Jan 19, 2011 05:33 PM

                                            I have 7 pieces of Falk Culinaire and use them nearly every day for many years. These are remarkable pans, and will outlast me. I don't bother trying to keep my copper shiny (these are working pans, after all). The stainless interior deglazes very well on the stovetop and cleans easily. If you forget to deglaze a little barkeepers friend cleans it right up.

                                            The only disadvantage is they are very heavy, so you'll also need light pans for saute or omelets that you can flip.

                                            I never bought the stock pots since there is no need for copper cladding when heating a large quantity of liquid.

                                            I wish they made a griddle. The closest thing I use is their big casserole pan.

                                          2. kaleokahu Dec 22, 2010 08:14 PM

                                            As others have pointed out, the rights to the copper-SS bimetal belong to Falk. It is my understanding that Falk Culinaire makes ALL of the bimetal sheetstock that is used world-wide in copper cookware. That includes their own line, Bougeat, Mauviel, tout le monde.

                                            If it's the same sheetstock, it should not pit any differently, Falk vs. Bourgeat. The same thicknesses should perform identically, and preferences should be measured in terms unrelated to the bimetal, e.g., shape, ergonomics, fitment, finish, aesthetics, etc.

                                            Does anyone here know what specific SS alloy Falk Culinaire uses in this bimetal? The reason I ask has to do with the fact that Falk CHOSE an alloy that is likely incompatible with induction appliances. There must be something about this unknown alloy (or the patent law process) that requires its use--otherwise the copper Mafia would be using ferro-magnetic and selling a lot more pans.

                                            Any smart guys/gals out there know the answer?

                                            19 Replies
                                            1. re: kaleokahu
                                              b
                                              bubblebubble Nov 20, 2011 11:06 PM

                                              Am I the only one who has had problems with the Falk SS lining discoloring and getting small black spots? I don't believe there's pitting but the fog and spots are bothering me. I like my pans to not only be clean inside but to look clean inside.

                                              1. re: bubblebubble
                                                e
                                                ellabee Nov 21, 2011 09:08 AM

                                                I've used a Falk try-me saucier pretty regularly for close to a year and don't have any black spots or discoloring. Which pan(s) are you using, how big are the spots, and where are they concentrated?

                                                You're not putting the Falk in the dishwasher, are you?

                                                Barkeepers' Friend has never failed in removing discoloration from stainless, for me. Haven't had any yet in the Falk lining, but occasionally get dark areas on the interior of tri-ply pans.

                                                1. re: ellabee
                                                  kaleokahu Nov 21, 2011 09:41 AM

                                                  Hi, ellabee:

                                                  Can I ask you a question about your saucier? Is the upward-curved wall of the pan back to vertical at the rim? If not, is the *edge* ground parallel with the pan's bottom?

                                                  I'm trying to learn if the rim's edge is square with the wall or at some angle other than 90.

                                                  Thanks,
                                                  Kaleo

                                                  1. re: kaleokahu
                                                    e
                                                    ellabee Nov 21, 2011 09:45 PM

                                                    Sorry, can't provide a picture that would answer your question -- frantically packing for Thanksgiving trip. But will respond when I'm back.

                                                    1. re: ellabee
                                                      kaleokahu Nov 21, 2011 10:31 PM

                                                      Hi, ellabee:

                                                      No problem. Just disputating with Sam Kinsey on the "other" site.

                                                      Aloha, a me Hau'oli La Ho'omakika'i (Happy Thanksgiving),
                                                      Kaleo

                                                  2. re: ellabee
                                                    b
                                                    bubblebubble Nov 21, 2011 03:21 PM

                                                    Thanks for the response, ellabee. No, I'm not putting it in the dishwasher. I've used copper all my life and have never had something like this happen. It's the try-me. The second time I used it I got the tiny black spots and what I can only call "clouding" in areas. It's crazy. The black spots are small and at first I thought it was pitting but it's smooth and nothing I used would have or should have pitted it regardless. They're about the size of a pin head, perfectly-shaped little dots, scattered here and there across the bottom of the pot and about a little up the sides. Stainless steel should never do this; I have inexpensive stainless pans that are about 25 years old that still look like new. I use Dawn to wash all my copper and it's fine; it's just this one. I tried Barkeeper's Friend too but these spots appear to be here to stay.

                                                    I love the pan but if this isn't happening to anyone else then there's something wrong with it. I'd order more in a heartbeat but for this.

                                                    1. re: bubblebubble
                                                      kaleokahu Nov 21, 2011 09:44 PM

                                                      Hi, bubble2x:

                                                      I suggest you ask Michael Harp. I spoke with him today, and he is a wealth of information.

                                                      Aloha,
                                                      Kaleo

                                                      1. re: kaleokahu
                                                        b
                                                        bubblebubble Nov 21, 2011 11:23 PM

                                                        I'll definitely talk to Michael Harp. He's helped me before and is a great guy. I love the pan, just a little taken aback by what's happened after only a couple of uses and wondering what's coming after a year or two of use.

                                                        I can grap a pic of mine for you if you'd like. What are you looking for exactly? A side shot at eye-level? The wall isn't straight-sided. It curves like a bowl then flares out at about a 45 degree angle for maybe about 1/4" at which point the outer edge is straight for ~ 1/16" then curves back into the bowl shape.

                                                        I have some shots but they're hanging with the upload. I'll keep at it though. Let me know if they're not what you're looking for or you want them sized larger.

                                                         
                                                        1. re: bubblebubble
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                                                          bubblebubble Nov 21, 2011 11:31 PM

                                                          Here's one that's a bit closer.

                                                           
                                                          1. re: bubblebubble
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                                                            bubblebubble Nov 21, 2011 11:33 PM

                                                            The one above is a better shot than it looks. Click it up.

                                                          2. re: bubblebubble
                                                            kaleokahu Nov 25, 2011 11:09 AM

                                                            Hi, bubble:

                                                            Thank you. I was disputating with Sam Kinsey about how much thicker these flared rims look relative to what their actual thickness is. Someone actually measured, and it turns out that the rims appear 24% thicker than they are (i.e., a 2.5mm wall edge measures out at about 3.1mm. It all has to do with how the manufacturer cuts and finishes the edges.

                                                            We were arguing over whether you can easily tell the difference between 2.0mm and 2.5mm by comparing with coins. Since two pennies are 3.1mm thick, if that's what the flared rim measures, you almost certainly are holding 2.5mm. And if the pan's just under two dimes thick (2.7mm) then the flared pan's likely 2.0mm.

                                                            Aloha,
                                                            Kaleo

                                                        2. re: bubblebubble
                                                          kaleokahu Nov 25, 2011 08:48 PM

                                                          Hi, again, bubblebubble:

                                                          After thinking about it, I may have a possible answer for your small spots and "clouding".

                                                          One common mode of corrosion in corrosion-resistant steels is when small spots on the surface rust because grain boundaries or embedded bits of foreign matter (such as grinding swarf) allow water molecules to oxidize some of the iron in those spots despite the alloying chromium. This is called rouging.

                                                          I would ask Michael Harp about rouging, and the distinct possibility that when your pan's lining was brushed, there was some swarthing ground in.

                                                          Even at the Try Me price, Falk should make this right if it is indeed rouging causing the spotting/clouding.

                                                          Aloha,
                                                          Kaleo

                                                          1. re: kaleokahu
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                                                            bubblebubble Nov 30, 2011 08:31 PM

                                                            Thanks for your responses; I'm sorry I'm so late with mine. Just coming off the holiday. Here's a pic of what I'm talking about. I'm going to send it off to Michael tonight and see what he says. I'm loving this piece but not loving these spots not only cosmetically but not knowing what's causing them to begin with. I'll let you know what he says.

                                                            Also I noticed in an earlier post of yours you referenced Brooklyn Copper as being the best. I'm always happy to buy American and am willing to give them a shot. Maybe I overlooked it but I can't find the thickness on their website. I see the cast iron handles so would I be correct in assuming the 2.5mm?

                                                            Here're the spots. Close-up of the bottom of the saucier. Let me know if you have any thoughts.

                                                             
                                                            1. re: bubblebubble
                                                              kaleokahu Nov 30, 2011 09:06 PM

                                                              Hi, bubblebubble:

                                                              You're welcome. Hope you had a great Thanksgiving.

                                                              As for the thicknesses of the Brooklyn stuff, the last time I looked, they were varying their thicknesses. The only one I specifically recall was 0.080--Eighty thousandths is slightly over 2mm. You should just email or call, and ask--Mac Kohler, a great guy, will be able to tell you the thickness of every piece they make. Their free re-tinning guarantee is unique, and a testament to their products.

                                                              Let us know what Falk does/says.

                                                              Aloha,
                                                              Kaleo

                                                      2. re: bubblebubble
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                                                        NotJuliaChild Nov 21, 2011 05:17 PM

                                                        My Falk saucier discolored after making caramel in it.

                                                        Its cooking performance hasn't changed. On mine, the interior and exterior are rather beat up from use.

                                                        1. re: NotJuliaChild
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                                                          bubblebubble Nov 21, 2011 09:13 PM

                                                          Thanks, NJC. The cooking performance with mine hasn't changed either but I have concern over what the cause of the change in the SS is. Nothing I did or used should have changed the surface cosmetics. I've never seen this before and to be honest, I've never had the interior and exterior of a pan get beaten up from use either. Is it just with the Falk or your other cookware too?

                                                          1. re: bubblebubble
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                                                            NotJuliaChild Nov 24, 2011 02:22 PM

                                                            My farberware does it too. I haven't tried Bar Keeper's Friend on my Falk. Maybe that would take away the stain.

                                                            I plan to replace my Farbrware soon, so I don't care for it well. I wouldn't hesitate to buy more Falk.

                                                            Unlike most here, I like my cookware to show some signs of battle.

                                                            1. re: NotJuliaChild
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                                                              bubblebubble Nov 30, 2011 08:39 PM

                                                              I have Farberware that must be 40-years old. I still use it almost every day. The darned stuff won't die!

                                                              I do love the Falk and it sounds like everyone else here does too. Thanks so much for your input. Since no one else has had this problem it sounds like it might be a defective piece.

                                                              1. re: bubblebubble
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                                                                ChowTO Feb 16, 2012 05:58 AM

                                                                Buy yourself some Barkeepers friend,sprinkle a tiny bit into your pan,wet a sponge and lightly scrub,there's nothing wrong with your Falk.

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                                                      nops Feb 3, 2011 02:53 PM

                                                      Who is the Falk wholesale guy? Where is the best place to buy Falk online?

                                                      1 Reply
                                                      1. re: nops
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                                                        Chipped Ham Feb 3, 2011 02:58 PM

                                                        His name is Michael Harp. Falk's URL is http://www.copperpans.com/

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