362646 Mon Jan 22 03:45:28 -0800 2007 26 31 Home Cooking 0 2213196 I've tried various mac n cheese recipes and always my sauce separates and seems oily. WHY?? What's your favorite recipe? Mon Jan 22 03:45:28 -0800 2007 12520 walker 1 2213223 Assuming you're making a bechamel sauce: it's probably the cheese melting at too high a temperature. Some cheeses (like cheddar) tend to separate and get oily/grainy. Here's a couple hints: 1) Use a mix of cheeses, including some that melt more smoothly. My faves include asiago, fontina, gruyere, or even gouda (for a bit of a different mac n cheese flavor). I like the sharp cheddar taste, but using more than about 1/2 cheddar risks separating and graininess. 2) Add the cheddar last, and only after you've turned off the heat. Stir well until melted and mix into the pasta... Good luck! Mon Jan 22 03:59:24 -0800 2007 2213196 49653 another_adam 2 2213727 Don't forget blu cheese :) Adam is right on this one- the big thing is whisking in the cheese after you remove from the heat. The way I do it is to put my large sauce pan on my cutting board and slowly whisk in the cheese, not adding more until the first bunch is melted. Last recipe I used I went with 3 cups of shredded cheddar (a combination of smoked cheddar and extra sharp) to 1.5 cups of crumbled blu cheese. Mon Jan 22 14:22:15 -0800 2007 2213223 49180 jpschust 1 2213234 are you binding the sauce with a roux (flour and butter) or cornstarch? you need something to hold the milk and cheese together. if not, you could heavily reduce heavy cream (till it thickly coats the back of a spoon) and add the cheese. using cream cheese will help bind it as well. 1. melt butter, add flour (equal parts each), wisk to form the roux. cook for 2 minutes on medium. 2. add milk slowly, wisking to prevent lumps. let it come to a boil and simmer for 10 minutes. 3. add desired cheese (i use cheddar, parmesan, and cream cheese.) you can remove the pan off the heat when you add the cheese. Mon Jan 22 04:02:47 -0800 2007 2213196 66616 Antonio Montana 2 2213252 oh yes, a little cream cheese also adds a kind of sinfully rich creaminess to the bechamel (asiago has a similar, but "cheesier" effect) what kind of parmesan do you use? i would have thought it would separate or get stringy, too... Mon Jan 22 04:14:01 -0800 2007 2213234 49653 another_adam 3 2213639 Cream cheese? I've never thought of that... very interesting. I'll definitely have to experiment with it. To the OP, as others have said, if you are doing pure cheddar and nothing to bind it (roux, stabilizer, etc.) then you'll always get some separation. With something like a gruyere, you can get away with it, but a mix is best. I actually like 2/3 sharp cheddar and 1/3 monterey jack. A bechamel works well to bring it all together in the right consistency. However, I'm not a huge fan of a bechamel flavor in mac and cheese. I've started experimenting with gums, like guar gum, as a stabilizer for cheese sauces. Mon Jan 22 13:00:47 -0800 2007 2213252 11120 adamclyde 4 2213929 Wow, this does indeed sound like a project for food scientists (we need a "Cornell Mac 'n Cheese"!) I've always wondered about applying some fondue-stabilizing techniques. Swiss acquaintances have told me that a little creme fraiche helps (maybe similar to cream cheese?) And laying out the grated cheese to dry for at least an hour or two before melting. One other suggestion for the OP: are you using a recipe with egg? If so, you need to be sure to bake at a lowish temperature, maybe even in a water bath, so it all cooks gently and evenly without "breaking" Mon Jan 22 15:33:22 -0800 2007 2213639 49653 another_adam 5 2214024 I just like your posting name. :) I've never thought of using creme fraiche in mac and cheese, though I can see how that works. It certainly works well in cream or milk-based pan sauces, as creme fraiche withstands heat quite well. Mon Jan 22 15:59:44 -0800 2007 2213929 11120 adamclyde 4 2215128 Alright Adam, breaking out the guar! :) How do you like it so far? If you want to take it to the next level, combine guar with xanthan. They have a phenomenal synergy with each other. Bechamel does tend to give cheese sauce a bit of a bready/cerealy note. Are you looking to bypass the bechamel completely? If this is your goal, I'd recommend combining the gums with arrowroot. Arrowroot lends a much cleaner taste to cheese sauce than flour does, and, by sharing the load, you won't overdo the gums/create sliminess. The other nice thing about an arrowroot/gum sauce is the time saved from not having to make a roux. Just sprinkle/whisk the gums and use a slurry for the arrowroot. The one tip I'd recommend for working with guar is to get it into the milk/cream right off the bat- first thing. I find that no matter how carefully you incorporate gums, there's almost always a little clumping. Heat helps break down the clumps, to an extent, but time is invaluable. The longer the gums have contact with the liquid, the better. Mon Jan 22 20:20:51 -0800 2007 2213639 13805 scott123 5 2215342 been using it in different applications, on your encouragement, thanks very much, btw. Like it so far. Mostly been in ice cream, but started a few weeks ago experimenting with cheese sauces too, since I've never liked flour thickened cheese sauces for some reason. They just taste flour-y to me. If I could find Xanthum in smaller quantities, I'd grab some, but so far, I can only find it in gigantic bottles... I'll keep looking though. Mon Jan 22 21:10:54 -0800 2007 2215128 11120 adamclyde 6 2216083 You're welcome. It is kind of ridiculous the amounts of xanthan they sell. With the xanthan I got from Whole Foods, it's probably enough to last 3 lifetimes and I use it just about every other day. As far as I know, it keeps forever in an airtight container (I use a glass PB jar), though, so I'm not worried about it going bad. If you've got an issue with the flour-y taste of bechamel, I have two suggestions. 1. Take the roux to a slightly darker shade. Instead of a 1 minute-ish white roux, try a blonde roux, or maybe even slightly beyond that. Think liquid shortbread. As you toast the flour, it gets a nutty character and the taste changes dramatically. Just make sure the heat is low so the flour toasts evenly. 2. Simmer the bechamel for 10 minutes... maybe even 15. Simmering a flour based sauce goes a very long way in breaking down the starch granules and removing the floury taste. Gravy is complemented by extended simmering as well. Tue Jan 23 00:12:48 -0800 2007 2215342 13805 scott123 3 2215161 I'm not sure of the chemistry involved, but I have found cream cheese to be exceptionally UNstable in cheese sauce. I've had more cream cheese sauces curdle on me than any other type of cheese. The other thing that I noticed about cream cheese based sauces is that they store poorly. If, by babying the heck out of it, I am lucky enough for the sauce not to curdle, if I then refrigerate it overnight, it's toast. My handful of experiments with cream cheese have been at fairly high concentrations. Maybe if you use just a little, it might be alright. From my experience, though, I definitely view cream cheese as a de-stabilizing force. Mon Jan 22 20:28:05 -0800 2007 2213252 13805 scott123 1 2213598 Are you thoroughly draining the pasta after boiling? Those macaroni tubes can hold a lot of water. Mon Jan 22 11:43:08 -0800 2007 2213196 49726 Anonimo 1 2214050 I have used this recipe over the years with much success. I saute a few tablespoons of finely chopped onion in butter first before adding the flour to make the roux, but otherwise stick to the recipe. I have made it with parmesan and cheddar as called for, but also have used other cheeses when I needed to clean out the refrigerator -- if it shreds, grates or crumbles I'll use it. In addition to making the roux properly, the parmesan helps to keep the cheddar from separating. I always use some amount of good quality extra sharp cheddar in addition to other cheeses and have never had a separation problem. http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/recipe_views/views/11625 Mon Jan 22 16:09:10 -0800 2007 2213196 13599 Ellen 1 2214065 I love mac and cheese and I love all the variations, actually you can switch it around with the cheeses. If I don't make a bechemel sauce first, the cheeses just don't adhere to the pasta like it does with a base sauce first. One of the best recipes I've tried is to make your bechemel, add your cheeses, pour it over the pasta into a casserole and then taken a beaten egg and mix it in with the pasta. cover with extra cheese, and lots of bread crumbs, bake at 350 until bubbly then brown the top if it isn't under the lowest setting under the broiler. I believe this might be more southern style mac and cheese. But served with fresh cold tomatoes, and hot sauce it is terrific! Left over mac and cheese can then be made into balls to fry. Well, I never said it was low cal..... Mon Jan 22 16:12:48 -0800 2007 2213196 50431 chef chicklet 1 2215064 Here are some traditional ways to help prevent curdling: 1. Once it's fully thickened simmer your bechamel for 5 to 10 minutes. Too long and the milk starts getting a cooked taste, but too short and the starch particles don't absorb enough liquid/swell. 2. Before adding the cheese, whisk the bechamel aggressively. Whisking helps break down the swollen starch particles, which, in turn, helps to create both a smoother and a more stable sauce. 3. Add the shredded cheese off the heat The residual heat of the bechamel should be sufficient to slowly melt the cheese. If additional heat is necessary, put the sauce back on very low heat, very briefly. Never let your sauce come anywhere near a boil. 4. Additional fat - fat (in the form of whole milk/cream) is a powerful stabilizer. Be careful with the cream, though- too much and it starts to mask the taste of the cheese. 2 parts milk to 1 part cream is about as high as you want to go. 5. Use fresh milk - old milk curdles more easily than fresh milk. 6. Use younger, less sharp, less aged cheeses - acid curdles milk. Older cheeses have a higher acid content. Until you've mastered stable cheese sauces, stick to mild cheddar and colby. 7. Use sealed cheese - opened cheese has a tendency to dry out and be harder to melt 8. Watch the salt content of your cheeses - salt can be a destabilizing factor. Blue cheese is especially salty. If you do add blue cheese, make sure to compensate by adding more cream. 9. Add a small amount of American cheese - it contains chemicals that prevent it from curdling. Kraft Deli Deluxe is better than most. 10. Don't make your cheese sauce in advance. A borderline stable cheese sauce, when refrigerated overnight, will usually curdle. Some less traditional ways of preventing curdling involve: 11. Hydrocolloid gums - xanthan, guar (these are especially useful for providing stability but not masking flavor like starch/cream does). If you use too much the sauce can get slimy, but in very small amounts they work beautifully. 12. Mustard - mustard contains emulsifiers which help stabilize sauce, but... I don't think it brings that much stabilization to the table nor is the taste favored by everyone. I'm not a big fan. 13. Milk proteins - dried milk/whey is sometimes used commercially in cheese sauces, but, like mustard, I'm not a big fan of the taste. For an unbaked mac & cheese, following tips 1-10 will pretty much guarantee you a smooth, uncurdled sauce. Baking exposes cheese sauce to pretty extreme temps and pushes the stabilization envelope. The starch from the unrinsed pasta helps a bit, but not much. For a guaranteed not to curdle, baked mac & cheese, I'd incorporate a gum (or two) into the mix. Whole Foods carries xanthan. Can you ignore all these recommendations and still make an uncurdled cheese sauce? Of course. Each of these tips, though, improves your odds. Curdled cheese sauces are the worst. Anything you can do to help prevent curdling is well worth the effort, imo. Mon Jan 22 20:05:36 -0800 2007 2213196 13805 scott123 1 2215166 I first melt my 4 tbl butter and then whisk in 1/4 flour until smooth, all under low heat for a few minutes. I add 4 cups milk slowly while whisking. Whisk until boil, thicken and lower heat and cook for 10 minutes or so. Season with spices. In a seperate bowl, compbine 3 or so cups of cheese with milk and and combine, pour over noodles and more cheese to top , 1 cup or so. I have also added cream cheese to this and marscapone in addition to the shreaded cheese. Bake for 45 minutes and serve. Some people also add prepared mustard to give it a tang. I like using parmasian and sharp chedder, my kids like mild chedder. Mon Jan 22 20:28:55 -0800 2007 2213196 21396 normalheightsfoodie 1 2215425 y'all are too fancy - you don't need roux, eggs etc. you need velveeta. ;) :) :) Mon Jan 22 21:31:22 -0800 2007 2213196 51618 hitachino 2 2215488 :) its funny. as a little kid, I used to love this dip my mom made that was two ingredients. velveeta and canned chili. For some nostalgic reason a while ago, I decided to go against all culinary intelligence and try it again. It was like eating melted plastic. man that stuff is nasty. Who cares if it melts smooth if it tastes like crap. the sad thing is, I think my mom still makes that dip and makes mac and cheese with it. yikes. My influence on her is pretty limited, obviously. Mon Jan 22 21:46:57 -0800 2007 2215425 11120 adamclyde 3 2215560 well, i was joking (sort of):) - isn't adding a bit of velveeta just like adding regular american cheese? (as others here have already suggested) years ago as a barmaid, we had a happy hour nachos deal -- made in a crock pot. velveeta and salsa and store bought chips. people couldn't get enough. (ok, so they were pretty 'happy') maybe kraft has changed their velveeta recipe since the good ole days.....(just like they've messed with their hellman's mayo recipe) Mon Jan 22 22:02:00 -0800 2007 2215488 51618 hitachino 4 2216034 Hitachino, I was the one who recommended adding 'a small amount' of American cheese. Velveeta tends to be a little bit saltier than American, but if you use a small amount of it, sure, I think that could work, but the operative word is definitely 'small.' For 3 ounces of cheddar, I use about 1/2 ounce American. Adam's use of the term 'melted plastic' to describe high quantity processed cheese sauces is right on the money. I've been lazy a couple of times and attempted to make a sauce with just American cheese. Not good. Mon Jan 22 23:59:40 -0800 2007 2215560 13805 scott123 2 2219520 Growing up my mom would make mac and cheese for we kids, and we LOVED it. I still think it makes a great grilled cheese too! Tue Jan 23 16:41:15 -0800 2007 2215425 50431 chef chicklet 1 2215429 Try using a can of evaporated milk , rather than fresh. It's designed to be stable at high temperatures, and is perfect for mac & cheese. However note that each can is 400 calories, so be careful in going crazy with this stuff! Mon Jan 22 21:32:30 -0800 2007 2213196 38183 AKR 1 2215615 This all sounds good except even though I love blue cheese in salad, I don't like it in a cheese sauce. Note that the key in almost all of the above suggestions is grating the cheese. If you have some Laughing Cow Swiss around I've found that adding just one little triangle (3/4 of an ounce I think) to a cheese sauce really smooths it out. My mother used to make mac and cheese differently from what's being described here. She'd make a bechamel and then mix that with the cooked mac and then stir in tiny cubes of cheddar before she baked it. When I was little I loved the contrast between the macaroni and the little melted cheese bits. Mon Jan 22 22:15:17 -0800 2007 2213196 60434 SusieQ40 1 2217440 Oh, one more thing that I just remembered. I'm not 100% certain about this, but I believe thick sauces tend to be more stable than thin. In other words, if you're having stabilization issues, you might want to try making the bechamel with half the milk, melting the cheese, and, once the cheese is completely melted, adding in the rest of the milk. Tue Jan 23 08:43:24 -0800 2007 2213196 13805 scott123 1 2220015 Thanks everybody, I think I finally made a mac n cheese I can be proud of. I think my biggest mistake before was putting in sauteed onions -- that's what made it greasy. Tonight, I tried Ina Garten's recipe again and took it off the heat before adding cheeses. Also added 1/2 a large pkg of cream cheese, in chunks, as some of you suggested. I baked it in my new red Mario Batali lasagna pan from Crate & Barrel. Wish I knew how to put on a photo of it. Only problem now, too many dishes to wash. People who've never made this don't know how much work, dirty dishes this entails!!! Thanks again!! Tue Jan 23 19:40:58 -0800 2007 2213196 12520 walker 2 2221022 Really? Sauce pan, pot to make pasta in and baking pan? 3 I count. Maybe 4 if you count your measuring cup. Wed Jan 24 06:42:13 -0800 2007 2220015 49180 jpschust