KOSHER WINE (GENERALLY) SUCKS

[Tal]

Can someone PLEASE give me some recos for some decent kosher wine (all price points, please indicate)? I'm having such a hard time hear and last shabbos I bought a bottle and thought I was going to HURL after one sip. Don't even remember what I bought. Must've blocked it out.

Thanks.

[SoCal Mother]

How about the $4 kosher wines from Argentina at Trader Joe's? A 4 buck Feivel to go with 2 buck Chuck. I know nothing about wine so I'd love to hear an opinion.

[elmoz]

I recently went to several Trader Joe's and they told me they no longer carry Terrenal.

[SoCal Mother]

I was JUST in TJ's an hour ago buying my chicken. (Off topic: they sell organic Empire chicken if you're into that sort of thing.) I could have looked...

You made me curious so I called. It's all gone. Well we served it at my younger son's bar mitzvah and saved a TON of $$$. We served the "Blue Wine" (Moscato) at the older one's bar mitzvah and spent waaaayyy too much.

[SoCal Mother]

Terrenal is back! This time it's from Spain and it's called Tempranillo. The wine guy gave me a loong wine-expert type explanation of how it differs from Malbec and I nodded and thanked him. They also had the Cab.

[zsero]

The Gabriele line seems to have expanded lately, and I continue to enjoy their new varieties as they come out.

[ravyossi]

At the $20-30 price point the Flegmann's Cabernet from Israel is excellent. Non-mevushal.

[frumy]

We got hooked on Rashi Claret and now can't drink anything else about 7 dollars

[masteraleph]

It should be noted that the Wine Spectator issue for June 30 has a big feature on Israeli wines (not all of which are kosher). Probably worth checking out.

[cracker830]

I've bought a lot of Yarden wine and it's very good and not expensive at all. I've bought Baron Herzog and BH Reserve and several bottles went bad- not sure if it was stored a the wrong temperature or just too old but it was undrinkable. It's happened so often we quit buying it and have recommended the same to our friends.

We've often bought the Bartenura Moscato but sometimes it's flat which makes it taste even sweeter.

We like Goose Bay Chardonnay and Yarden Chardonnay. We love champagne so we tried both Kedem and Baron Herzog but they were both awful. The Kedem was very dark in color and tasted acrid- it shoudln't have been on the shelf- that's one of the concerns we have with many of the Kosher wines- don't they deplet the inventory when it is not drinkable anymore like other companies. Since it is not a big seller in the general market, perhaps sales are slower. We've ordered some online and it seems to be fresher!

It's like a crap shoot to buy it on the shelf in any grocery store- the specialty stores are more consistent perhaps by virtue of the customers are primarly Jewish if not all.

[frumy]

Try rashi claret it has a very fruity but mild flavor semi dry not mouth puckering about $8 a bottle

[MartyB]

My family just loves Kedem Cream Malaga, less than $5 a bottle. I have to hide the bottle after shabbos or it mysteriously disappears by the time next shabbos comes along.

[berel]

if and when the Liquior store next to the the 5 Towns shop and stop has the creme Malaga (creme concord is great too) usually a 10% discount if you buy six bottles bringing the cost per bottle to under $4

[MartyB]

Thanks for the heads up, I didn't know about the 10% off. I did notice that they tend to be short on the Kedem Creme Malaga; I guess I am not the only one that likes it. For Pesach, I tend to buy the Concord Kal for its low alcohol content, not nearly as good as Cream Malaga, but I can drink it like water.

[berel]

I bought all 7 bottles of the Concord Kal they had on the shelf last week, with the 10% off it came out to about $2.80 a botlle. I wish they had more

[MartyB]

Now this is serious, a Concord Kal shortage would be a bigger deal to me than a stick margarine shortage.

[MartyB]

Just went there yesterday, had lots on hand. I bought 4 of the Concord Kal and two Cream of Malaga all of them the 1.5 liter size. I used to buy at Chataeu De Vin on Central Ave, but they don't carry the 1.5 liter size only the 750ml size. I paid I think $6.30 for the 1.5 liter size.

[berel]

wine I buy needs to be mevushal, so I buy the 750 Ml. bottles

[MartyB]

Do you mean that the 750ml Concord Kal is mevushal and the 1.5liter is not?

[berel]

only the 750ml size of any of the kedem wines are mevushal. look at the label, you'll see the 1.5 liter doesn't say mevushal

[MartyB]

Thanks for the heads up. I must read labels carefully. Just like I blew it by assuming that a tub of margarine in just that, a tub of margarine and a stick of margarine is nothing more than a stick of margarine, but are actually two completely different products. When I go shopping for my pesach dairy items, I will now have to carefully scrutinize the labels between stick butter vs. tub butter. I just love my shmura matzo buttered and want to make sure that I am using regular butter and not some watered down version of butter.

[WineFlair]

Try Covenant, the best Kosher wine I've ever tasted. It's not cheap at about $85 a bottle, but it's a standout in its own right and it's not Mevushal meaning it hasn't been flash pasteurized (which some people refer to as "boiled").

There's a second label at about $40 per bottle called "Red C" which I have not tasted but which gets pretty good (88-90) reviews in general and since it's made by the same crew, would portend good things.

[e-mail]
www.wine-flair.com

[kicks82]

If you are in New York, Union Square Wines has a very good selection of upscale kosher wines (the least expensive of which run about $30). I drink mostly nonkosher wine, but was very impressed with the bottles I bought.

[clkl]

Just want to second (thrid? fourth?) the recommendations for Dalton, Alfasi, Fortrant and Teal Lake for the $15-$20 per bottle range.

We have not been disapponted by most varieties from these reliable brands.

We had an excellent blend by Dalton in Baltimore this Pesach. It was called "Canaan" I'm not sure of the year (the label I saved is torn and wrinkled) but it was a blend of Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot.

[mrotmd]

are there any kosher ice wines? There is an apple wine similar to the ice wines, but I am looking for a real grape ice wine.

[double M]

Try Laufer Winery Oz Wine.

[bigfoodlover]

Try Rodrigues of Canada: http://www.rodrigueswinery.com

Have not tried these yet, but they seem to be what you are looking for.

[zsero]

Um, no, they're the exact opposite of what mrotmd is looking for. They make no grape wines at all.

[daphnar]

Hafner makes an ice wine. For a product description see: https://wwws.onlinekosherwine.com/pro...

[EatKasha]

As tough as it is to drink, Good Old Dependable Manischewitz is a great base for sangria. In all seriousness, Shabbos Dinner (or a sunny summer day) is a great time to pick up a bottle of malaga, cut up a few apples/oranges/pears/etc. add a touch of orange juice (sans pulp) and serve over ice. It is a nice change to the Bartenuras and Yardens (which my family swears by) and you can please Zaide the Traditionalist as well.

[Joe Berger]

try Valflore semi dry red from
the Bordeaux region of France,
a Herzog Selection of wines.

OU-P $8 10%alc Mevushal wine is smooth, with a hint of sweet, that
comes in a classy corked bottle. I prefer drinking it slightly chilled.

"A delicious semi-dry wine with outstanding fruity aromas and charming flavors.
Enjoy with fried or smoked foods, soups and stews, desserts and cheeses."

[koshercook76]

Some good wines are Kedem(New york) baron Herzog(Cali), King David

[whitewater]

Borgo Reale Sangiovese Di Puglia-- red and mevushal.
Malvasia
Moscato (Blue bottle)-- for something light.

[tsiblis]

Can anyone suggest a kosher white wine for a party (not too costly)? I don't like chardonnay so am open to anything else. Thank you.

[markabauman]

Here are some recommendations (although specific to Passover) from Steven Kolpan, who is professor of wine studies at CIA in Hyde Park:

http://www.wamc.org/passoverwines.html

[tamars]

Herzog Chateneuf - Semi-dry but with sweet/fruity overtones.
Bartenura Moscato - It's the "blue bottle" mentioned in previous posts... its light, bubbly and refreshing and is pretty much the standard at most Shabbos meals. (So it will go pretty fast, especially since it has a low alcoholic content.) But you can easily get the Rashi Moscato D'Asti - which I happen to like better or Golan's Moscato.

All these bottles are pretty inexpensive.

Tamar

[zsero]

Gabriele Pinot Grigio
Or, if you want cheap, and not great but not at all bad: Kedem Chablis.

[lagatta]

A decent inexpensive line is Fortant de France - that large winery in the South of France belongs to a Sephardic family, the Skalli brothers, and their kosher wines are fine. I'm not Jewish, but had to take a kosher wine to the house of friends who keep kosher.

[p.j.]

I will second that. We have been drinking the Fortant reds for a couple of years, at least. Pretty good.

Three votes for the Bartenura Moscato for a party--as cold as possible.
p.j.

[ganeden]

At a chasana a couple of nights ago, one of the wines was Carmel Moscato di Carmel (at least, I think that's the name of it- wasn't paying that much attention). I was surprised at how good it was. Unlike many Carmel wines of the past, especially their whites, this was fresh, fruity, with definite Muscat blanc character, good balance, a nice spritz, but mainly, this was a high quality wine, probably cheaper than many, if not most, of the Italian counterparts, and just as good. Not particularly my cup of tea in terms of style, but having made commercial wine for nearly a quarter century, I believe I can identify quality when I see it.

[rruben1]

I had a bottle of Goose Bay Pinot this weekend. I think it is an outstanding value, and a terrific wine in general.

[tamars]

So, somewhat on topic... but what is everyone using for their arba kosot (four cups) of wine this Pesach? Any good recommendations before I go shopping?

[zsero]

My first two cups will be Kesser Eminent Dry, because it's very easy to drink. The 3rd and 4th cups will probably be Teal Lake; not sure exactly which variety.

[Beerhound]

Rothchild's Rose de Clark - technically not a red, but close enough, bone dry, not mevushal, and easy enough to quaff four cups it.

[aleppo]

Herzog's single-vineyard Cabernet Sauvignon, Alexander Valley (around $30-35), is one of best reasonably priced kosher reds I've had -- great wine to bring to impress a friend hosting you for Shabbat dinner ...

As for Goose Bay, unfortunately, their sauvignon blanc is subpar compared to those of other Marlborough producers (I drink NK wine as well) ... would like to try their pinot (NZ pinot is phenomenal) ...

Hagafen pinot is another solid wine (around $25+) as is Barkan pinot ... would agree Yarden and Dalton are reliably very good across the board (Yarden's blanc de blanc sparkling is one of the few non-French kosher sparklers that is drinkable) ... Teal Lake shiraz is great bargain red and I agree that Herzog Chenin Blanc is the best value out there for white, kosher or non (under $10 for years now) ...

Recent sleeper pick has been a cab from a South African producer, Eshkol (around $20); I found it recently at Astor Wine ...

[jpr54_1]

www.queenanewine.com
has a great collection of both israeli and kosher wines

[MartyB]

My family can't seem to get enough of Kedem's Cream Malaga for kiddush.

http://www.kosherwine.com/cgi-bin/Pro...

[JamesB]

Can you post the name of the Spanish Rioja? The Goose Bay wines from New Zealand are EXTREMELY good. The Yarden wines, the Tzora wines, and some others from Israel are also excellent. However, the problem is these wines are few and far between and much more expensive than the average non-kosher wine. If you take almost any decent kosher wine, I guarantee you will find a non-kosher complement at half the price. Even though $20-25 is not a huge amount, it becomes cost prohibitive if you are a regular wine drinker. If anyone has recommendations in the $10-12 price range, I would love to hear.

[zsero]

Gabrielle Pinot Grigio, from Italy.
Teal Lake.

[nomdeplume]

I bet it was this: http://www.kosherwine.com/cgi-bin/Pro..., affordable and fantastic. Stay away from mevushal if possible.

[JamesB]

I tried the Ramon Cordova Rioja last night. I found it quite unremarkable. Very bland and watery. No noticeable aroma either.

[nfjanette]

We enjoyed a bottle of Herzog Central Coast 2005 Chardonnay for dinner Friday evening. I was honestly shocked at the quality of this product; it easily compares to similarly priced non-kosher CA chards. It was lush and buttery yet had lovely sharp fruit notes - all for about $16.

[kugelthekid]

An excellent choice would be, Montepulciano.

a great dry wine not to tannic, and a great smooth, jammy, finish.

I challenge anyone to come up with a kosher wine this good, at this price. (it's average price of $10) (and yes, it's light years better the ramon cardova rioja.)

[mrotmd]

WOW! I had to check the date on the original post to make sure I was not reading about the choices for my 5 yr-old passover seder in 1961.
Kosher wines have come a long way since the extra sweet Manischewitz.
The answer above just scratches the surface. The request doesn't specify where you are. Here in So Fla there are several Kosher supermarkets that carry a wide selection of Kosher wines of every quality.
I challenge anyone to recognize a Spanish Rioja from the same year and kind between kosher and non-kosher. Although I would not drink the later.
Chile, Argentina, Australia, Spain, Portugal, France, Israel... they all make a wide variety of excellent kosher wines. There are wines from 5 - 100's dollars.
While I am not trying to flame an question, the phraseology of it sound stereotypical and innacurate

[JamesB]

If you would not drink the non-kosher wine, how can you be so sure there is no difference?

[mrotmd]

Good point. I became kosher about 15 yrs ago. My wine palate was different back then. I've had people in my house for dinner who are not only non-kosher, but are wine aficionados. They are very satisfied with my kosher cellar and praise many of the choices, including the Spanish Rioja.
You reminded me of a cashier at Walgreen's that cynically asked me since when I stopped being kosher because I was purchasing a chocolate bar. I showed her the OU-D hechsher and she was not only surprised, but somewhat embarrased. I thanked her for looking after my best interests :)

[JamesB]

Can you post the name of the Spanish Rioja? The Goose Bay wines from New Zealand are EXTREMELY good. The Yarden wines, the Tzora wines, and some others from Israel are also excellent. However, the problem is these wines are few and far between and much more expensive than the average non-kosher wine. If you take almost any decent kosher wine, I guarantee you will find a non-kosher complement at half the price. Even though $20-25 is not a huge amount, it becomes cost prohibitive if you are a regular wine drinker. If anyone has recommendations in the $10-12 price range, I would love to hear..

[cracker830]

Ha, speaking of Kosher chocolate- I am a chocoholic but haven't found any Kosher chocolate that is very good. The last bar I tried was white and crumbly around the edges like it was old!

[yaelaldrich]

Then try any of the amazing kosher chocolates from Switzerland (Alprose or Schmerling). Callebut is kosher as well.

[queenscook]

That only speaks to the poor conditions it was kept in by the seller, not the quality of kosher chocolate per se.

[masteraleph]

Depends on what you're really looking to spend.

On the cheaper end, Hagafen (Napa) has a couple of nice wines. Their Sauvignon Blanc is quite good ('04, though apparently their '05 wasn't so great), and their Syrah is wonderfully spicy.

Dalton, which has been mentioned above, makes some decent wines.

If you like fruity Chardonnays, look for the Yarden Chardonnay from the Odem Organic vineyard. Obviously, avoid it if you're not a fan of Chardonnays.

What I've mentioned above can be found under $20 (the Hagafens significantly under $20), if you look in the right places.

Yarden ($15-35 in the right places) generally makes good wines.

There are also supposed to be some good French wines, but I'm not familiar enough with them to comment. Note that they run from low prices all the way up. I can say that the recent kosher Rothschild's aren't necessarily so great, though some of the older ones are supposed to be quite fantastic. Then again, in the US, they're only available at auction and prices run VERY high.

As with some of the caveats above, not all of the wines I've listed are mevushal.

Unlike most of the above posters, I generally avoid Baron Herzog whenever possible.

You haven't mentioned where you're located, which may play into selections. If you're in Manhattan, the best (and cheapest) store is Gotham, at 94th and broadway. There are good places in Brooklyn as well, but I'm not as familiar with them.

Note that Mevushal doesn't actually make the wine bad- UC Davis ran a study and there's really no effect from the modern process. That said, many Israeli wines and many higher-end wines are still non-Mevushal.

[ganeden]

BS"D

There's clearly an effect, which is minimized by doing things properly, and as early as possible in the process. Unfortunately, not everyone is careful in mevashaling wine, and it shows. Hagafen, which often touts the U.C. Davis study, is one of the best. So what are the issues? U.C. Davis developed a relatively high temperature short time (HTST) system of heating must of Zinfandel and other tight-clustered red varieties susceptible to botrytis, in order to denature the laccase enzyme and curb oxidation, since laccase action is not curbed by sulfites and other antioxidants, and can cause a whole batch of red wine to go brown at fermentation temperatures. It was known from the canning industry for a long time that htst provides the best means of preserving the original look and feel of canned vegetables, and it was only natural to look at this basic concept regarding heating wine. The faster wine or must can be heated to whatever temperature is required, the shorter time-at-temperature, and the quicker it can be cooled down, the more chance of preserving the original characteristics of the wine. Doing it at the must or juice stage rather than as wine, in other words, as early as possible in the process, further minimizes changes. The only difficulty is the expense of the BTUs and equipment needed to do this. Mevushaling units today must balance costs. Some heat recovery is needed (heating up the cold wine with the hot wine which had just run through the system) in order to minimize the size of the boilers and the cost of fuel needed. However, the preheating process prolongs heating time, working against quality preservation. So the best mevushaling form a quality standpoint will take place by removing oxygen beforehand and properly adding antioxidants, using large boilers and lots of fuel, minimizing regeneration of heat, and cooling immediately with cold heat exchangers. Some, notably those interested in preserving quality, such as Ernie Weir and Herzog (with their higher priced offerings), do it better than others.

[kiddush hopper]

last shabbos i had the baron herzog black muscat, hands dwon the most delicious and interesting wine ive ever had, it is hard to find though. it is a dry wine that is so fruity it is sort of sweet. really good, you must try it

[ganeden]

BS"D

Not sort of sweet. What you're talking about is clearly a sweet wine.

[saramiriam]

This is truly the most outstanding Kosher wines, and one of the best wines overall, that I have had. A friend brought a bottle to my house, and I was stunned by the richness and complex taste..Non-Mevushal

The Capcanes Peraj Ha'abib Flor de Primavera 2003, $40, is the famous Spanish old-vines Grenache that's even praised by Robert Parker. It is grown in the northeastern Montsant appellation, neighboring the more prestigious Priorat winegrowing region, by Cellar Capcanes. It's one of Spain's largest wine cooperatives, which previous to 1995 sold mostly bulk wines to Miguel Torres. The Jewish community in Barcelona enlisted the cooperative (Catholics, by the way!) to make them a kosher wine, which took some doing by the co-op. It required massive upgrades to the production facility, hiring rabbis, and following all the Jewish dietary laws. But the end result was worth it: Peraj Ha'abib Flor de Primavera (it translates to spring blossom) is considered the best kosher wine in the world.

You can almost chew the aromas, which explode with spice, tar, blackberries, cedar and smoky oak. The tannins have grip but don't overwhelm the palate; the body is rich and complex. The concentrated flavors and texture are typical of old vines, which are low-yielding and packed with taste. Aging for one year in new French oak adds spice and toastiness. At about $40, it's even a good buy. (Non Mevushal)

[double M]

I must agree with you on the Capcanes Peraj Ha'abib. It is an awesome wine that is well worth the price. I wish there were more kosher wines at that level for that price.

My all-time favorite California wine is the Baron Herzog (old vine) Zinfandel 2001. Other vintages of the same wine were terrible. I do have hopes for the 2004 vintage as it matures.

[Busk]

+1. I just opened a bottle. I bought this wine not for it being kosher. I am seeing more and more wines that say they are kosher, but I just went for the region and reputation. This is an excellent, super wine in this style. It is shabbat anyway, so what the heck?

[PapaT]

It might be a good idea to find out what type of wine you like (Red, White, Dry, Semisweet etc...). Also, what kind of wine did you have and how was it stored before use.

[rruben1]

Borgo Reale makes a full line of excellent Kosher wines from Italy, including a Sangiovese, a Super Tuscan, a Primitivo, and a Chianti. The Toscano Rosso is fantastic.

The wines range from $14-26 a bottle. Go for it.

[nfjanette]

Agreed on the Dalton - had a stunning red a few years ago "smuggled" out of Israel. I think the Teal Lake wines are great for the price; the shiraz is my favorite. Confession: I used to like massive Aussie non-kosher wines, and the Teal Lake plays up to that style well. It's really a different - and better - world for kosher wines these days - I almost feel guilty when we occasionally drink yayin stam...

[tdg]

Orna Chillag is very good

[daphnar]

Not all vintages are kosher.

[chai18]

Dalton, an Israeli wine company, puts out some very good wines, though they are not mevushal so be careful

[JamesB]

By far the best kosher wine:

Goose Bay Pinot Noir.

[AndeB]

The Goose Bay Sauvignon Blanc is quite lovely as well.

[weinstein5]

There are some very good wines Alfasi - a Chiliean Vineyard - 8-12 per bottle

Teal Lake also makes some very good wines as well - Australian - 14-20 per bottle

I agree with CWY check out kosherwine.com http://www.kosherwine.com/Default.asp They have a complete list with reviews -

[fleisch]

I had another Australian, Altoona Hills, which was as good as Teal Lake and a few $ cheaper. There was a Cab-Shiraz in particular which is good.

I've also seen a new Israeli winery, Efrat IIRC, and I had a red from there that was surprisingly good.

[p.j.]

We enjoy the Abarbanel wines from France.

Also, a great easy-drinking wine is Bartenura's Moscati di Asti--not really sweet. Way too easy to drink.

[charm city nosher]

I like the Bartenura Moscato di Asti too but when we served it to my mother-in-law, she complained that it was more like soda than wine. We checked the alcohol content and it was about 5%. A good wine to sip at a simcha if you don't want to drink too much!

[smartie]

agree the Bartenura is a good line especially the Pinot Noir

baron Hertzog Cabernet is fine, the Merlot isn't so great.

there is an Israeli line called Chai some of them ok but don't remember which ones I tried.

[DeisCane]

The Baron Herzon Chardonnay line continually gets good rankings.

[lora]

I like Baron Herzog Chenin Blanc. It's a good everyday kind of a choice. I found it on a list of (not kosher) recommended chenin blancs, and it's always treated me right.

[janie]

me too, I love this wine.

[CWY]

Check out Segal's Cabernet Sauvignon Special Reserve 2002, I really enjoyed it.

http://www.kosherwine.com/cgi-bin/Pro...

[nickdanger]

Check out this site:http://www.kosherwinereview.com/
I have had Yarden and Bartenura whites, actually at my son's simcha, and they were quite acceptable.