350656 Tue Dec 12 20:32:22 -0800 2006 76 29 Not About Food 0 2093500 My SO and I often throw barbecues, host holiday meals, post-holiday depression-lifter cocktail parties, etc. etc. Our friends are always eager to come and we usually have up to a dozen people. While I don't cook anything too extravagant (i.e. paella), I always have lots of good food. We also glady share our homebrew and wine so everyone is pretty much getting the deluxe treatment. People do offer to bring something, which is always appreciated, but doggone it, after a few years of this, the invites have been few and far between and basically of the taco chips and salsa kind of thing. Anyone else have this dilemma? I enjoy entertaining, but I'd like to be the guest once in a while. Tue Dec 12 20:32:22 -0800 2006 26994 houndgirl 1 2093542 Sometimes you just have to accept a relationship the way it is. If you want it to continue, that is. I have a good friend who has been invited to my home for dinner and parties probably six or eight times a year now for nearly twenty years. I've been invited to his home for dinner twice and for one catered party. And I'll tell ya. After having had dinner at his house, I'd just as soon cook and have him come to my place. Maybe your friends don't like to cook or are intimidated by your cooking or the ease with which you entertain. At least they offer to bring things. Maybe that's the best they feel they can do. Tue Dec 12 20:41:21 -0800 2006 2093500 11407 JoanN 2 2136131 excellent reply, JoanN I've been looking around at the reciprocity issue myself, and am kind of bummed. But I *do* like to cook alot more than most of my friends, who are totally scared of making their own dinner let alone taking it on for a group... so I'll be happy for the one or two confident cooks I have in my life, and be pleasantly surprised when other folks step up every couple of years or so. AND occasionally have a pot luck, when I want to see people in a relaxed home setting but don't want to do all the work. Fri Dec 29 05:50:48 -0800 2006 2093542 11989 pitu 2 3646842 Almost all of our friends do reciprocate – not with the same frequency and quality but it is, truly, the invitation that counts. We are more than happy to go to somebody’s house for pizza. Also, some friends who don’t entertain at home for whatever reason will occasionally treat us to a meal out, which is always a thrill, or do some other thing for us. When we moved we had a huge crew volunteer to help. Growing up, my family’s attitude was always that a host should not expect guests to be responsible for anything and that one had an obligation to reciprocate invitations (if not on a strict tit-for-tat schedule then certainly as a general rule.) I do have one otherwise very nice friend who only hosts potluck events (something no one else in my set does) and doesn't do any of those other "hosting" things that non-cooks do. It really pesters me. If everyone you know does the potluck thing, I guess it’s fine – not my preference, but no one is taking advantage. But to enjoy everyone else’s hospitality and then expect them to bring food to your house? Thu May 01 10:27:00 -0700 2008 2093542 25664 meg944 1 2093674 We have a small house and so we don't have people over often and when we do it's for a garden party. Also, for a while there our kitchen looked horrible. It's better, now, but the house is still tiny. However, we always take wine, a hostess gift and food--if food is wanted--to the parties we attend. Anyhow, my point is that maybe your friends are clueless, or maybe they have reasons why they can't host parties. As a party-goeer I appreciate the party-givers. Don't stop! Think of it as getting good karma. Tue Dec 12 21:06:33 -0800 2006 2093500 11231 Glencora 2 2094408 Per Miss Manners, the way to reciprocate in this circumstance is to invite your gracious erstwhile hosts to dine out with you at one of your favorite restaurants. Presumably, they're equipped for entertaining ;-) Wed Dec 13 00:35:24 -0800 2006 2093674 42933 PDXpat 3 2094440 Good point. I have done that. Wed Dec 13 00:43:10 -0800 2006 2094408 11231 Glencora 1 2094104 This is my rule of thumb. I enjoy having people over and will invite different ones often but if after 4 or 5 visits at my house and they don't reciprocate. I tend to then invite these ones over for a drink before going out to dinner or have them over afterwards for coffee and dessert. Now that said I don't invite ones over so that I can be invited to their house. I invite them over to visit and spend a relaxing evening with them so whether I cook or we go out I acheive the same goal. Tue Dec 12 22:49:29 -0800 2006 2093500 19121 tlegray 1 2094354 A long time ago, I invited the wife of my then-husband's colleague to lunch at our house. They were new in town, and I just wanted to make the friendly overture. I'm a great cook. When we were finishing up eating, she said to me (keep in mind I'd just met her), "You know, I'll never be able to invite you to our house because (wave of hand) I can't do anything like this." And she never did invite us over. Some people see it as a competition, I guess, and completely miss the point of the enjoyment of sharing food together, whether it's good or bad food. Some people ::::: gasp :::::: aren't all that interested in food. I must go and lie down now, having written that last phrase............... Wed Dec 13 00:19:20 -0800 2006 2093500 54991 Atlantis 2 2095711 I love it! I feel the same way. Yikes! CocoDan Wed Dec 13 14:15:38 -0800 2006 2094354 12643 CocoDan 2 2100549 I definitely get your drift. The times I've seen this, it seemed more that our friends were feeling increadibly intimidated at the thought of trying to reciporocate, as opposed to feeling competative about it. But after a couple of experiences like this, I find myself worrying occasionally about overdoing it - I'll drop a dish from the menu or serve more casual drinks as I don't want my friends to think our tastes are over the top (and hence, hard to satisfy when it comes time to have us over for dinner). Thu Dec 14 21:31:14 -0800 2006 2094354 40062 lisa13 2 2102227 Hilarious! Fri Dec 15 14:11:46 -0800 2006 2094354 36661 Sam Fujisaka 2 2149596 I love to have dinner parties and cook for my friends, but there is one couple I hate to cook for. Every time I'm over their house, the talk is about food and the husband has very strong opinions, expressed with a forthrightness that makes me a bit uncomfortable. So when I have them over, I'm always terrified that he's secretly judging the food. Or that he will not-so-secretly judge the food. So I have some sympathy. Wed Jan 03 20:18:15 -0800 2007 2094354 12806 curiousbaker 1 2094417 I've been told it's intimidation. If you enjoy the people, keep asking them back. If you don't, or the lack of reciprocity interferes with your enjoyment, branch out into more entertaining friends.... We have a lovely pair of friends who owned up to me and a foodie mutual friend that they couldn't possibly compete with the extravagant and delicious meals we cook, and they had us out to a very nice restaurant. So kind of them..... Wed Dec 13 00:37:08 -0800 2006 2093500 54251 rcallner 2 2095075 Exactly, some people are just incompetent in the kitchen and with food and have a bit of a complex. It's really no different from people having a complex about math, money, directions, sports, driving, you name it. Any way, if they're real friends thing even out somehow, one way or another...and sometimes they don't but if you're keeping count then you have too much time on your hands. Wed Dec 13 04:24:14 -0800 2006 2094417 27275 ML8000 1 2095097 I usually only invite people I like enough that I honestly do not care if they ever invite me back. Wed Dec 13 04:33:21 -0800 2006 2093500 19631 mimolette 1 2095113 Sometimes entertaining isn't just about the food preparation..but a matter of who has the house/space/yard to accommodate the party. Some homes just don't offer the right flow for guests and can damper a good time. We enjoy hosting parties/reciprocating invites and can comfortably welcome 50 people...but we have friends and family who can comfortably accommodate 100 guests and they do wind up hosting the lions share of parties. Thoughts? Wed Dec 13 04:38:21 -0800 2006 2093500 36312 HillJ 2 2104672 i agree... most of my friends who used to participate in couples-dinners abstain from it now because their homes are almost always a mess due to the 1-4 toddlers they have. it's not that they don't *want* to reciprocate, it's just that in doing so, they'd have to almost remodel their homes to accommodate adult company... and that's not touching on the logistics of having the kids cared for or at least sedated throughout dinner... :) like the previous poster, we just have people over who we like and not worry about whether or not we'll be invited to their homes. we can always go out if we want to feel "treated." Sat Dec 16 04:19:32 -0800 2006 2095113 58137 adroit_minx 1 2095136 Gotta disagree. It's about the food. I love to cook. I'm good at it -- renowned for the last 20 years. Whan I was married, I had a house with a spacious yard. Now divorced, I have a small condo with a balcony. And yet....I throw parties. All year long. Every Christmas. Every spring, every summer. I throw parties cuz I like to cook and I like to see my friends. Recipriocal parties? Regulary only two: Passover and Hanukah. (And I'm not Jewish.) Let's face it: Most people don't really entertain -- or like to. They might have the house, the dishes, the tiki torches, but they DON'T LIKE TO COOK! So they don't throw parties. You can't hold this against them if they're your friends and you like them as people. However, if they're just business associates, acquaintances and friends of friends, you should nix them from the guest list without a moment's guilt or hesitation. They will NEVER return the favor because they don't throw parties! Don't try to squeeze blood from a stone. Just invite your "real" friends to these events cuz you love to see them. If you're doing a business-related event, figure it's just the cost of doing business and write it off. Wed Dec 13 04:47:18 -0800 2006 2093500 58104 Reeter1 2 2095562 Nah (grin)..it's about the food for Chowhounds...not necessarily about the food for every guest. and...down the line reciprocating can happen in many forms; not just another party. Wed Dec 13 12:52:32 -0800 2006 2095136 36312 HillJ 1 2095690 Thanks all for the input. I didn't want to be too whiny, as I really enjoy these get togethers and I love my friends. A lot of them are quite a bit younger than me and they don't cook but I would be perfectly happy if they just invited me over for carry-out pizza. Ah well, guess I'll start planning my after the holidays bash! Wed Dec 13 14:05:08 -0800 2006 2093500 26994 houndgirl 2 2095866 You know, you could try the radical measure of telling your friends, whom you like but who don't reciprocate, how you're feeling ("perfectly happy if they just invited me for carry-out pizza"). They probably don't know and don't realize you'd enjoy the hospitality and wouldn't be fussy about the menu, and you could find yourself entering a whole new phase of your friendship..... Wed Dec 13 15:18:31 -0800 2006 2095690 54251 rcallner 2 2100447 If they are quite a bit younger you might consider that they may be making much less money, or have student loans, or have much smaller apartments...I don't know. Money is a very big factor in hosting parties. A few years ago (5) roommates and I used to have a cookout each year, but even splitting the cost between all of us it was rough for us. I had friends who lived very comfortably, and they knew that my "reciprocation" was drinks or dinner at a not-too-expensive restaurant. Maybe that would be an option? If they seem to lead lavish lifestyles, however...what gives? Thu Dec 14 21:05:53 -0800 2006 2095690 48540 merrymc 3 2102452 I assert (yet again) that it's not about money or how big your house is or oblivious bad manners -- it's about food and entertaining! When my best friend and I were in college 25 years ago, we would throw HUGE parties in our tiny apartment. And I mean it was TINY (I'm amazed we lived there now) and we'd have 50-75 people literally crammed into it. It was BYOB, but we always cooked the food. We were broke, but we knew how to cook. And make gigantic salads. And bake cookies. Hell, we were college students -- nobody expected us to serve prime rib anyway! Decades later, with more income and more space, we each still throw parties. Smaller ones, of course! (We're middle-aged now.) But we do it cuz we love to cook and entertain. People who DON'T like to cook or entertain (which means cleaning up the house and making it cozy for nonfamily to hang out in) simply WON'T. You can "suggest" anything to them you like, bring your own pizza to their house, anything. It won't help. They simply won't do it. I've seen this over the many years. The world is divided into two kinds of people: Those who like to entertain (and invariably love food) and those who hate it. Funny, I've gotten so accustomed to the Entertainment-phobic not reciprocating, I haven't even thought about it in years. It bugged me in my early 30s, but you just come to accept it. Fri Dec 15 15:41:51 -0800 2006 2100447 58104 Reeter1 4 2106053 I think you are absolutely correct. Some people have an excuse and some do not, but people who want to entertain will find a way to do it. And people who don't want to will always have an excuse. For the most part, I have accepted this simple reality, but that doesn't mean that I don't see an element of stingyness, laziness, and poor manners in our dear friends who never return the invite and show up for every gathering. But at the end of the day, clearly I would rather have them as friends then not, so I continue to extended the invitations. Sat Dec 16 22:53:29 -0800 2006 2102452 19937 Kater 5 2153576 Entertaining does not need to occur in a home. Most of our friends don't entertain (but eat frequently-- frequently with us) and a few with host at restaurants instead. Some just bring much nicer hostess gifts. Thu Jan 04 20:34:02 -0800 2007 2106053 10099 JudiAU 1 2095732 We are in a similar situation with many of the same points shown above. At the end of the day (or evening), entertaining friends and family shold be done because you enjoy doing it. When it becomes a hassle and thoughts of "when is it our turn to be the guests", we usually take a break from hosting gatherings. It can be tiring and expensive but at least we know we will eat and drink well ! Wed Dec 13 14:24:36 -0800 2006 2093500 50082 TonyO 1 2095847 Expecting people to be what they're not is wasted psychic energy. Entertain for the joy of doing so, not in the hope of reciprocity. Wed Dec 13 15:10:24 -0800 2006 2093500 12630 beevod 1 2097849 I've definitely felt this way. About a year ago, I realized that entertaining is my "gift" and also my pleasure. I don't know anyone (other than my fellow chowhound.comers:) that LOVES to cook for and feed their friends, family, co-workers, fellow students, and other randoms - but I do. The joy I facilitate and the happy memories that are created because of my talent (and effort - let's be honest) are well-worth my time and energy. Also, with my good friends, I smile when I assign specific varietals of wine (that cost more than $XX). And, on occasion, I have collected cash - when I was really too poor to entertain, but still wanted to cook. No complaints yet:) Wed Dec 13 23:53:14 -0800 2006 2093500 13416 ElissaInPlaya 1 2097919 Quote from my best friend on the subject of entertaining which he and his wife don't like to do. "Fools give banquets-wise men attend". Thu Dec 14 00:18:18 -0800 2006 2093500 11914 monku 1 2098100 One thing I think that gets lost in this is the financial ability of some to be able to reciprocate. I know it can be easy to think that if the Smiths have a beautiful home and nice furnishings, they certainly could afford to entertain. However, I have friends that survive on bologna and cheese sandwiches for lunch everyday in order to keep their beautiful homes. That is how they have decided to budget their money and God bless them for it. I entertain a lot in my home and I never expect reciprocation. I offer to entertain because I love to cook and bring some happiness via food to my friends. Thu Dec 14 01:25:15 -0800 2006 2093500 10633 Seth Chadwick 2 2099428 Per Miss Manners, Entertaining is about congenial company, not about the food, decor, etc. At least in theory, if not always in practice. If baloney and crackers in a double-wide is all a host can afford, genial guests will be quite happy spending time with interesting people eating baloney and crackers. Courtesy doesn't expect champagne and caviar, just a relationship that's not one-sided. Courtesy simply expects that people reciprocate, in whatever manner is within their means. Thu Dec 14 16:30:35 -0800 2006 2098100 42933 PDXpat 3 2099599 From an etiquette standpoint, I agree. They could invite guests over for something as simple as coffee and cake, or hot chocolate and a cookie. That would be polite. I think the problem is that folks feel that they aren't reciprocating unless they match in kind, and Seth is right, that they may not be able to do. Thu Dec 14 17:19:27 -0800 2006 2099428 10158 susancinsf 4 2100156 I understand your point, however <said humorously> It costs nothing to be an interesting, congenial person. If, for whatever reason you feel you are unable to do even this much, courtesy requires you to decline any social invitations. </humor> Consider it like a favor. There are some favors a person could never possibly repay --I owe a few myself-- but that does not relieve them of the obligation to try. Gracious hosts, as well as gracious guests, understand this. In the OP's case, she could discreetly drop some hints among friends about her deep appreciation, but thorough lack of snobbishness, with regard to enjoying the companionship of her circle of friends and how much she admires what they've done with their lovely, cozy homes. A few words about the joys of home-cooked meatloaf might go far. So might the meatloaf, come to that, but that's a post for another day... Thu Dec 14 19:44:46 -0800 2006 2099599 42933 PDXpat 2 2100113 I do the opposite. I have a tiny little house, with some nice furnishings, and some not so nice. You'd never catch me scrimping on quality of food to save money. I'll scrimp and save other places. Thu Dec 14 19:32:45 -0800 2006 2098100 11053 thenurse 1 2099659 We a lot of gay guy friends who love to come over bringing either wine or dessert or both. Sometimes I say, now next week its your turn to take us out to dinner and we chose a good food place, reasonable price and handle it that way (thats with friend Steven) - others we suggest lunch. Mostly it works out because the weather in Los Angeles is such that we are outside a lot of the time and Mme Zoe puts everyone to work in the yard and I have a lot of fun filling the table with lunch or dinner. Thu Dec 14 17:33:19 -0800 2006 2093500 12655 ZoeZ 1 2100404 I once felt this way with a couple of friends who just weren't really into cooking, and then one birthday, they teamed up and got me 6 months of delivery from a local CSA. That was lovely. One thing you might try is organizing a supper club, where you meet once a month or so at a different person's home for dinner. I'm in two :) One of the clubs, we meet because we are friends more than foodies, and we have a varying range of space and ability to host dinners, but everyone's relaxed enough to know that they don't have to put out matching plates or even have a sit-down dinner. One of the best was a Cuban brunch with our plates in our laps in tiny studio. It might make your friends more relaxed about hosting, and it's a great way to see people regularly. It's also a great way to try out new recipes in a safe setting--you know they won't care if you end up ordering pizza. Thu Dec 14 20:54:43 -0800 2006 2093500 10697 AppleSister 1 2100517 Depending on the relationship, you (meaning any of us who host more than we are hosted) might be able to become a mentor to other folks. I suspect there are a lot of people these days who didn't grow up with regularly hospitable parents, or whose parents were stressed before the guests arrived, and could use a little hand-holding. Maybe when the conversation turns to "Oh, I could never do this because...", you say "Oh, it doesn't have to be fancy. We just enjoy your company. I started small, too -- just a couple friends over for dessert and coffee," whatever. It's like anything -- takes practice to build confidence and make it look effortless, and you start out with Mary had a Little Lamb (the tune, not a menu suggestion!) before you get to Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata, 3rd movement. Or offer to co-host, either at their place or yours, where they can work with you and see your behind-the-scenes strategies. Thu Dec 14 21:24:21 -0800 2006 2093500 53971 momjamin 1 2102237 Some of my friends are non-reciprocating and non-cooks. I just tell them at some later time that its their turn, but that I'll cook relatively simple stuff at their place after they buy the food. Seems to work. Fri Dec 15 14:17:56 -0800 2006 2093500 36661 Sam Fujisaka 1 2102260 My then boyfriend and I were often guests at his boss's home for dinner. Boss's boyfriend was a gourmet cook. We ate extremely well. Time to reciprocate. We chose spaghetti and meatballs. The sauce didn't turn out so well. Twenty years later, I still remember how gracious boss and boyfriend were as they ate our not-so-great meal. That is class. Fri Dec 15 14:30:15 -0800 2006 2093500 15131 three of us 1 2102276 In New York it's not an issue. Nobody invites anybody to their home (except me!), so we don't expect it. But the price of admission to our house is a bottle of champagne. That takes care of the 2 buck jungle juice! - Sean Fri Dec 15 14:37:08 -0800 2006 2093500 11294 Sean Dell 2 2102298 It's that way in most large cities outside the US as well... apartments are small, thus entertaining is done in restaurants and bars. Fri Dec 15 14:44:34 -0800 2006 2102276 10811 Das Ubergeek 2 2107719 Interesting ... we are in NYC ... often have people over, but there is only a smallish circle of our friends that reciprocates. In our case, I think a lot of it has to do with people not feeling comfortable cooking ... but I am somewhat surprised that they don't reciprocate by inviting us out - not that they have to. And, some who have reciprocated have *tiny* apartments but have made the best of it and we've had a wonderful time. Sun Dec 17 20:44:20 -0800 2006 2102276 10985 MMRuth 2 2129399 How does one broach that subject? I don't think I could get words to that effect to come out of my mouth. Tue Dec 26 18:48:51 -0800 2006 2102276 13564 Snackish 1 2102613 Well, yes. And when you make a point, I pay attention! However, in both London and Dublin, where I have lived, entertaining at home seems much more common than in NYC. Apart from anything else, there is a culture of home cooking in both of these places - and much of Europe, for that matter - that, is quite rare in the US. Chowhounders not withstanding! - Sean Fri Dec 15 16:23:54 -0800 2006 2093500 11294 Sean Dell 1 2103600 The majority of people I know (and regularly invite to my house) would not know how to cook for more than 3 people (some can't cook at all!) That being said, I on the other hand love to entertain, cook and invite people to my house. Does it get "old" after a while? yes, do I ever wish I would get invited to be waited on and entertained? yes, Are there times when I have been invited somewhere and wish I stayed home and cooked? yes (most of the time!) I just think that in this day and age the majority of people feel it is far too complicated and time consuming to entertain at home without the assistance of a caterer. Most feel their lives are too busy to be "bothered." Afterall it takes a fair amount of work to pull off even an easy dinner for 6- you have to shop, prepare, CLEAN THE HOUSE, cook the food, clean up from the party AND keep smiling! My idea of heaven (someone elses Hel...) Fri Dec 15 21:01:16 -0800 2006 2093500 12606 MeffaBabe 2 2104075 Clean the house. Yes. Food magazines with their "throw a party together in 3 hours" stories never mention that part. And they certainly don't talk about trying to change clothes and find some earrings and lipstick before the quests arrive--while keeping a kid entertained at the same time. Not so easy. Fri Dec 15 23:28:03 -0800 2006 2103600 11231 Glencora 1 2103789 This is a great thread. My two cents: I also entertain quite a bit (1-2 a month when I have 8 guests) for a full 3-course meal. I do it because I enjoy spending time with my friends and I find cooking and planning quite relaxing. whenever I have a party, my friends know that they are in charge of the wines (although we alwasy hit my wine storage towards the end of the meal). My belief is that our friends truly appreciate the time you put in the cooking and planning process, and soemtimes they are intimidated. Although, I must say, taht the majority of my friends who come for dinner all the time, have become quite the cooks themselves. I'd like to think I've inspired them to try cookign and enjoy it (they say so themselves) which I think is wonderful. My only pet peeves at dinners is when guests don't even offer to clean up, when they see me clearing plates/cups. Fri Dec 15 21:58:29 -0800 2006 2093500 50693 JoLi 2 2135992 Or when all the women jump up to help and the guys, young ones, sit there as if glued to their chairs. What decade do they think this is? Fri Dec 29 04:37:17 -0800 2006 2103789 41864 optimal forager 1 2104415 I, personally am horrible at entertaining.. it never goes well, so i have to say, i am most often the guest... i do bring food or gifts however.. Sat Dec 16 02:09:24 -0800 2006 2093500 52894 RiJaAr 1 2104964 I have entertained extensively in the past when I was living in homes with space that could accommodate a gathering, large or small. Change of locations and circumstances has meant entertaining is done by dining out, or cooking at a friend's. Some of my friends are fellow foodies and we enjoy cooking together. Their kitchens are expansive and easier for cooking, rather than squeezing into my galley-style cooking space. It's also important to consider the budgets and means of your guests/friends. Perhaps their circumstances prevent them from reciprocating in a manner you would expect or like. I don't look to the reciprocation as much as I do to the fundamental social grace of taking a gift for the host/hostess, and following-up with a hand written (forget email here) thank you note. If you are hosting events with the expectation of reciprocation, it is important to reflect on your own motivations for the invitations you extend. Is it for their company or for an invitation? I have friends who are not in a position to entertain, but I continue to invite and include them in things I do because of the joy of their company and the gift of their friendship. Sat Dec 16 09:27:51 -0800 2006 2093500 55002 SanseiDesigns 1 2106081 I have three cats, and though I really like to entertain, I only invite people over who I know won't have a problem with them. Lots of people are terribly allergic, and lots of people have an irrational hatred of cats (for some reason, dogs don't inspire this as often, but that's another post). I try to clean up as much fur as I can before folks come over, of course, but it's impossible to get rid of it all...I think people with small kids probably feel the same way - I'll entertain you if you can handle the baggage that comes with my house. Sat Dec 16 23:06:43 -0800 2006 2093500 55869 megamalone 1 2106581 Well, here's another one: I cook all the meals, do all the shopping, and do all the clean-up. My wife (and 3-year old daughter) are always invited, never bring wine, never reciprocate. My wife and I both work; we 50-50 child care. I earn way more. We've been together a quite some time. It all works. Would never think that anything was wrong. Sun Dec 17 04:02:09 -0800 2006 2093500 36661 Sam Fujisaka 2 2153599 Ha. I think that is what the tie you get on father's day is supposed to address. Thu Jan 04 20:38:54 -0800 2007 2106581 10099 JudiAU 1 2107121 my fiance and I entertain a lot in our teeny-tiny apartment in berkeley... our friends are guilty of many of the offenses on this post - bringing bad/cheap wine, not helping to clean, etc. Sure, we snark about it later, but we're still going to invite them over, because they're our friends!! But let me just say, this last time we invited over a new friend, RN, to one of our dinner parties, and he brought over a fantastic!! bottle of wine (his new gf worked for a winery!) AND helped with the dishes. Will we still invite our old friends to dinner? Yes. Will we invite RN to dinner too? YES YES YES!!!! Sun Dec 17 15:46:49 -0800 2006 2093500 41224 meels 2 2107705 Maybe you're onto something. There may be some percentage of our collective inhospitable friends who will be spurred to become better guests if a good guest is introduced into the circle! Be sure to invite RH to a dinner party with your older friends and gush about the terrific wine and clean-up help! Yes, yes I know.... we all have friends who will not feel the slightest twinge when exposed to a friend with a better handle on guest ettiquette. But still, there may be a few who will take it as a wake-up call. Sun Dec 17 20:39:17 -0800 2006 2107121 19937 Kater 2 2153603 Argh-- cheap wine, thoughtless wine, bad wine...from people wiht six digit incomes and wine cellars. Thu Jan 04 20:40:07 -0800 2007 2107121 10099 JudiAU 1 2115629 Entertaining at home in NY is very common. Simple casual get-togethers and Barbecues to formal sit down Black Tie dinners. We often have people in for dessert and coffee or drinks and hors d'oeuvres before going out to dinner. In general, when I invite people to a small dinner for 6-8, I would expect them to reciprocate. If people are invited twice and don't, we usually won't invite them again, except perhaps to our New Years Day Open House or Christmas Cocktail Party. We usually don't accept invitations for dinner from people we don't have any intention of inviting. Kind of rude, isn't it? Wed Dec 20 09:21:36 -0800 2006 2093500 10838 Fleur 1 2121053 We entertain A LOT. I have people over here for dinner an average of three nights a week, and we have several large parties a year. Most of our friends, however, do not cook, do not entertain, and work outside the home, so weeknight entertaining is not even a possibility, as it is for me. We got a lot of the same comments - "Oh, we can't have you over, we can't possibly match this!" "Oh, we can't entertain like this because we have kids, etc." At this point in the conversation, we are always very careful to say, "We do not keep score. It's not about we have you over, you have to have us over for exactly the same kind of thing. We just like spending time with you. If you don't cook, you don't cook, no big deal. I love to cook, and I have the luxury of time to do it, so this kind of entertaining is what we do. But we're always thrilled to get an invitation to go to a movie, or meet you out for dinner, or even bring takeout over to your house, if it's easier for you and the kids." Since we started making it a point to say this, we have gotten a LOT more reciprocal invitations. Our friends with little kids now invite us to pick a night and come to their house and pick up take-out. Or we get calls from our friends to go see plays or movies, or just meet them at a cheap Mexican place for dinner. In our experience with our good friends, they really just needed to hear that we did NOT expect them to cook for them. There are other options. It's about spending time together, and they are welcome to set the terms based on what they're comfortable with. And now people tuck in to our table with a lot less guilt, and we don't hear that "I couldn't possibly do all this" anywhere near as much. They know it makes me happy, it makes them happy, and they just relax and enjoy. Thu Dec 21 23:13:41 -0800 2006 2093500 49971 Andiereid 1 2132863 I strongly disagree with the posters who tell their guests it's their turn next time. I think it's very unfair to the guests that the host is going to EXPECT them to reciprocate and tell them as much to their face. If you have such a need for people to reciprocate to the point that you're going to tell them that they need to do so, you probably shouldn't be hosting parties. It's one thing to politely suggest coffee and cake at their place when then say they couldn't possibly match your party. But to tell them it's their turn next just doesn't seem right. Thu Dec 28 01:52:13 -0800 2006 2093500 15507 Rick 2 2132902 While I agree that it is not wise or polite to compound a guest's failure to reciprocate with an open suggestion that they take a turn hosting, I want to make a point about expectations. A host is not wrong to expect her guests to reciprocate. Though Americans seem to have developed a chronic problem with this point of ettiquette it is not the expectation that is wrong. If you accept a social invitation, you are supposed to reciprocate - unless, of course, the social outing went so poorly that you are cutting off the relationship. You can invite the host to a simpler, less expensive, or less challenging event but it is just not acceptable to take advantage of hosts by accepting invitations when you do not care enough to reciprocate. I've posted on this topic before; while I'm really put off by guests' failure to reciprocate it is something that we tolerate and move beyond. But that does not mean that these friends are not committing and ongoing breach of ettiquette. The funny thing is that I am 38 (not 68!) and was taught to decline invitations from anyone I was not willing to entertain and to reciprocate within 3 months of any invitation apart from a large party. It's a simple thing, and a very functional bit of ettiquette - it's odd that so many adults seem to be completely unwilling to uphold this very basic standard. Thu Dec 28 02:11:43 -0800 2006 2132863 19937 Kater 3 2135606 Thank God!! A sane voice from a young-ish person who was taught what's correct. One can always say something like, "We look forward to sharing your hospitality in the future." Fri Dec 29 01:30:33 -0800 2006 2132902 11995 pikawicca 3 3646893 I completely agree! And I am also under 40. Incidentally, as regards “broaching the issue,” when guests ask what they can bring, we will often say, with a smile, “We’re all set – but you can bring us an invitation to your next party!” Thu May 01 10:38:29 -0700 2008 2132902 25664 meg944 1 2132912 I think that sounds really Kater, but I've come to realize that most people just don't follow that ettiquette. That being said I still like to have my friends over even if they never have me over! Thu Dec 28 02:15:12 -0800 2006 2093500 15507 Rick 1 2136520 It seems to me any thinking along the lines of "you set the bar so high, I couldnt possibly compete ... so i'll just do nothing" is at best a pretty lame line of reasoning and at worst a bizarre forms of self-justification [it takes the place of admitting to yourself you are a freeloander]. As people have suggested, there are an INFINITE NUMBER of ways to "pay back", and reasonably nobody would expect it to be in kind ... after all this is ultimately about the relatonship not the food. I wonder, is it the same people who dont invite you over who also dont help clean up? I suppose a tricky problem is if some non-food-oriented friend is simply unaware of how much effort or expense something is, so they think treating you to a movie or 2 buck chuck levels the books, but I think among people with whom you have long running relationships, eventually you can figure where the relationship stands. Here are some ways you can "pay you dues" in lieu of inviting them over for dinner ... some I've done, others I've seen other do ... --you can purchase a good quality drink/dessert --you can pay for meal in restaurants --you can organize stuff you invite them to [for example i dont cook much but i organize a lot of camping trips, cultural outings ... and certainly you can pickup the tickets or absorb some of the costs, if reasonable] --you can be on the lookout for things of interest to them [a friend i know collects salt and pepper shakers for example] and pick up something appropriate if you are travelling [or of course "i saw this book/dvd on amazong i thought you might like ... although getting them a cookbooks, might send the wrong message :-)] --along the lines of the above, certainly food presents a lot of options here ... "i was driving past tomales bay and remember i had some great oysters at your place last year and though i'd drop some off" ... i just dropped off a bunch of crab with some close friends who frequently feed me --back in the student days, people did favors like help you move, drop off at the airport --would the original poster be mollified with "it's the thought that counts" type offers ... like say one of the freeloaders said "hey you said you were going to greenland over xmas ... if you need me to water the plants or monitor your dog, feel free to let me know"] Now what to do about sociable people whose company you enjoy but are unambiguously freeloaders ... well I suppose that *is* a personal question. But I think the focus is on reciprocity and the relationship and goes beyond entertaining, in the form of dinner parties. But given this is something that develops slowly over time and you can react slowly, I think it is an easier problem than some "on the spot" type dilemmas, e.g. that might arise with check splitting at a restaurant. Fri Dec 29 14:22:21 -0800 2006 2093500 16770 psb 2 2139340 I love your post because I think it focuses on reasonable (not LAME!) alternatives for the guests who is not able/willing to reciprocate. Apart from ettiquette and convention, a host wants to know that her guests have enjoyed her event and her company. In the past, failing to reciprocate was a pretty direct signal that meant "For one reason or another we have found you socially unacceptable!" While it's clear that this is no longer the clear-cut case, I find that we're happiest to entertain friends who find a way to make it very clear that they really want and appreciate the invitation. I would love ot see more of our friends who don't entertain take the reins when it's time to organize activities. Perhaps the inclination to plan and organize dinners and parties is closely related to organizing outings and trips because I find that I'm often the one who does both. But while entertaining requires a few specific skills and resources, planning the annual apple-picking, hayriding, pumpkin extravaganza (can you tell I'd like to offload that particular event??) really doesn't require anything more than a little bit of time and mastery of evite. One of our great friends is not set up to entertain but she is a gifted seamstress. Each year at Halloween my child has a truly fabulous, custom made Halloween costume that she lovingly designs. This is the perfect division of labor since I can't even sew a hem! Sat Dec 30 14:48:19 -0800 2006 2136520 19937 Kater 3 2141308 Amen Kater!! Not only are we the ones who entertain (except for one couple who does reciprocate, are good guests and terrific hosts)but we all go out a couple of times a month and I am always the "cruise director" so to speak. I'm the one who makes the reservations, who calls to make changes when people are added, etc.and has to deal with the restaurant and with "the group"...getting them their on time, etc. Sun Dec 31 13:27:18 -0800 2006 2139340 11990 Janet from Richmond 1 2139351 Yeah the seamstress example is a good one ... since that is a specialized skill as opposed to grunt labor [helping wash dishes, move chairs, throw away plastic cups, chop vegetables ... although even that is appreciated] or "merely" throwing money at a problem. While some amount of organization skill is req'd for say putting together a camping trip, pretty much anybody can offer to do things like drive, whether it's a road trip or being the designated driver for a night on the town. Again excuses in this area are pathetic, not doing anything to reciprocate is lame ... I suppose a stragely bizarre question is "what's worse, the pathetic excuses or obliviousness". yadda yadda. I think there is definitely a corrlation between non-inviters, non-helpers, people lame about RSVPs [Better Offer Shoppers] and other barbaric behaviors ... although interestingly, I dont think there is a political correlation. Anyway, the fact that after observing a group for a while you learn who the freeloaders are makes things simpler than the more complex scenario of the "bilateral fallacy" [something we see in discussions of trade deficits] ... what i am saying is a condition we generally dont see is if A is in "invitation debt" to B, B is in "invite debt" to C, and C is in "invite debt" to A ... so it all balances out if you look at things GLOBALLY. I think in social groups you know who the NET DEBTORS/Freeriders are, and nobody really keeps fine accounting of the people who are basically reasonable. [people, especially in a place like SFO aka Flake Central, are too gun shy about being judgemental, because it has such bad rap. Being judgemental doesnt necessarily imply intolerance. It can just mean you have standards. But this is a huge 2000 word essay at least ... BTW, I'm 38 and crochety too :-)] Sat Dec 30 14:58:42 -0800 2006 2093500 16770 psb 1 2139437 I think about this a lot because I get invited over often. ALL our friends have children and do not eat out, so the only way to get together without having them schelp out to downtown, is for us to go to them. Our home is so not children friendly. We try to do a number of things to balance things out: - we always bring things like menu contributions, desserts, fancy cheese plates etc. We make a point to bring enough or something that will not be served at the event so they will have it for themselves after we leave. Even if they ask us to put out the cheeses etc, we will put out a little and pack up the rest for them to keep aside. - we always bring good wine or good beer or a special treat drink - occasionally we will bring a pound of coffee - we always help clean up and set up so that there's not any more housework to do when we leave. Now that some of the kids are older I am trying to reciprocate by inviting my closest friends out to restaurants as our treat. Haven't had any luck yet but I continue to try. Sat Dec 30 15:54:11 -0800 2006 2093500 45908 orangewasabi 1 2153198 Ugggh. But I so do want to reciprocate! I really do! I am an obsessed, meticulous cook with a fondness for organic and gourmet ingredients. Sadly, my Astoria Queens apartment kitchen is ill-equipped, with absolutely no counter space and most of my friends would hardly venture out into the boroughs to enjoy a home-cooked meal. Sigh. But I am always happy to bring a dish to a party - pot luck style. Thanks for hearing me vent. Thu Jan 04 19:24:19 -0800 2007 2093500 53427 kayonyc 2 2153229 This is off the original post, but have you ever considered offering to cook an entire dinner for your friends at their houses? We have done that several times for friends of ours who have babies and they've loved it. It's difficult for them to come here sometimes, but they love my cooking and we've just arranged sometimes for us to bring the dinner to them and enjoy it together. Might be an option for some of your friends who have kitchens with more counter space. Thu Jan 04 19:31:47 -0800 2007 2153198 49971 Andiereid 3 2153323 That's a great idea. We've done this for SIL occasionally, especially when the weather isn't great. Her family appreciate good home cooking - for some reason they can't be bothered to cook much. I like not having to clean up all my stuff which is strewn all over the house. Thu Jan 04 19:48:37 -0800 2007 2153229 12335 cheryl_h 1 3641031 I have to comment here, because this drives me crazy. My hubby and I throw parties quite often. We have casual get togethers, movie nights, superbowl parties, theme parties, formal dinner parties, potlucks, etc. I am by no means a great cook. But I try. TRY being the key word here. Despite the many parties we throw, and many differnet people who happily accept invitations, we are invited out with other people very seldomly. I dont care if people are intimidated, or cant cook, etc. I would eat a can of corn and a hot dog and be perfectly happy just to be invited somewhere else for a change. Cant cook? Invite us out for dinner, or for chips and a movie. I think it is super rude for people not to reciprocate. I like entertaining for the sake of entertaining, but it gets a bit ridiculous when you are the only one doing it. I think it all has to do with effort. I have a newborn and a three year old, and I still manage to do it. Ive come to the conclusion that if people cant be bothered to make an effort for me, I cant be bothered to do the same. Harsh, yet true. Arrggh. Thanks for letting me vent. Tue Apr 29 14:59:16 -0700 2008 2093500 187140 Finsmom 2 3648439 "I would eat a can of corn and a hot dog and be perfectly happy just to be invited somewhere else for a change" I feel the same way , yet others who are reciprocating probably don't feel that way. People seem to get freaked out at the prospect of feeding me, maybe mostly because i don't eat meat. I've told countless people that i'm more than happy with a potato or a bag of potato chips, but yet, they freak out. I like entertaining for the sake of it too..but also sometimes, people become dependant on it....the aka good ole reliable thinking. People seem to be a little more understanding of your efforts if you have children or the perception of responsibilities . Single people are not rolling in money either, or rolling in time. Thu May 01 17:09:15 -0700 2008 3641031 153184 im_nomad 1 3641748 At least you all have the option of not inviting friends back... or say you enjoy your friends' company it doesn't matter... In my case it's my in-laws. My brother-in-law and his SO *never* reciprocate. When we spend our hard-earned money to invite my husband's family over for dinner/parties, they never bring something over, they never offer to clean up, etc. Occasionally they'll show up w/ a 2-liter of Pepsi if we ask them to bring drinks. The GF and my sister-in-law belch at the dinner table...and over Easter dinner the SIL brought "Bondage Club" and "eating fetuses" in front of children. And after years of entertaining w/ no reciprocation, my husband and I have stopped inviting them over, although we'll still end up doing it for holidays.....To top it off, they make more money than we do, so they could certainly afford to take us to dinner, or at the very least, not be obscene at the table..... Tue Apr 29 19:09:11 -0700 2008 2093500 108820 QSheba 1 3642931 We love to have people over and throw small parties at least once a month and have people over for dinner about 3-6 times per month. I have no expectation that invited guests should reciprocate. I don't care. Great if they bring something but they don't need to. I just love to have company over and have a great time. I have much more fun being the host and having things the way I like it rather than being the guest. Wed Apr 30 08:38:24 -0700 2008 2093500 41679 Den 1 3643142 I suspect, in addition to all the other reasons mentioned, for some people, it's that they live behind a door that they don't feel is up to proper standards should you come in... i.e. their place is terminally messy or a disaster. For others it may mean being entertained by you but not reciprocating is part of their facade of living beyond their means -- they feel they can't afford to properly reciprocate, so they don't try at all. IMO, the people who are true friends find a way to work around this that's fair to all concerned.. But, if you're dealing with someone who's conveniently oblivious of the "give" portion of the give and take formula of reciprocity -- it's time to prune your guest list. Wed Apr 30 09:33:34 -0700 2008 2093500 156760 karmalaw