347043 Thu Nov 30 18:22:00 -0800 2006 86 35 Beer 0 2058925 Having perused beer advocate (more than once) and other beer periodicals, I’ve noticed that across the board “bigger” beers receive higher review scores. Moreover, it is my understanding that the Double IPA is an American invention (along with I guess Imperial Pilsner, and let us not forget “Hop” hysteria). Surely other countries make “big” beer but it appears that the focus of our creative attention here in America is almost solely on bigness. What does this say about the future of microbrew in the United States and what exactly will be our beer legacy (relative to that of say the British Isles, Czech-German, and Belgian)? Note: If I’ve overlooked any popular “un-big” micro style that is a unique American contribution please alert me. Thu Nov 30 18:22:00 -0800 2006 26180 Chinon00 1 2059778 I think it's kind of a shame, really. The fact is that there are some producers here in the States doing worthwhile stuff that isn't big, but unfortunately they don't get the attention they deserve. Off the top of my head, I'd say that Brooklyn Brewery, Real Ale (in Texas), Alpine (San Diego), Russian River, and Ballst Point (also San Diego) are micros I've had where there is a serious emphasis on making flavorful beer, while not necessarily big. However, the stuff that seems to get the most attention is the big stuff. Alpine is known locally for their double IPA, and while it is a great beer, some of their others are hardly known about and are equally as amazing. They make a light American wheat, a really interesting honey and orange peel-flavored one called Mandarin Nectar, and an excellent stout. But few people have ever heard of them, let alone tried them. Thu Nov 30 21:39:59 -0800 2006 2058925 10809 Josh 2 2062403 Add Yard's in Philly to your list. I met the brewer and he would love to make subtle, english-style low alcohol session beers but no one will buy that stuff...their Philly Pale Ale is not high alc but very hoppy. My favorite is the ESA, hoppy but nicely balanced. And then they have a big honey ale, Jefferson, at 8%, but very good. Fri Dec 01 19:34:15 -0800 2006 2059778 16728 kenito799 3 2062813 In the same general geography, you have Flying Fish and they are not making any big beers to my knowledge. Clearly, they have found a market for lower gravity beers in various European styles. Fri Dec 01 22:06:18 -0800 2006 2062403 10395 brentk 1 2060130 In some ways I think "the future is here"... American Micros are now brewing the most incredible Pale Ales, Barleywines, Stouts, Porters... I just can't see much improving on them... There's incredible wheats too, though I don't think I've yet found "the microbrew wheat"... I'd also like to see some more fruit-infused beer experimentation. Something more impressive than the flattish Sam Adams Cherry Wheat but less "girly" than Leinenkugel's Berry Weisse... Thu Nov 30 23:03:03 -0800 2006 2058925 42549 Chicago Mike 1 2060280 American wheat beer is a popular style, and it isn't big at all. It's been 30 years since New Albion started, a bit more than 40 since Fritz Maytag took the reins at Anchor. That's really a short stretch on the timeline of history. I don't know that it's been long enough to determine where it all might settle down. Big beers garner much attention from the serious beer drinkers. But most American craft beer is purchased by regular folks, not beer geeks, and they're buying plenty of wheat beers, pale ales, etc, and little that's huge. Thu Nov 30 23:54:12 -0800 2006 2058925 10998 Jim Dorsch 2 2060699 Thanks for your response. I guess I'm concerned with how we are distinguishing ourselves on the world stage. For instance there was that famous NYT Pilsener blind tasting where American brewers were ranked the top 3 (or 4) Pilseners in the world. So obviously we can produce traditional beer styles. But you guys saying that we produce styles of "wheat beers, pale ales," and "Barleywines, Stouts, Porters" that are to some degree separate from the original and therefore might represent an "American" style? And how could we forget Pumpkin beer? Fri Dec 01 02:53:06 -0800 2006 2060280 26180 Chinon00 3 2061175 Not sure if I understand you ... are you questioning whether Americans make their own interpretations of the styles you mention above? Fri Dec 01 10:43:00 -0800 2006 2060699 10998 Jim Dorsch 4 2062066 Yes, and if we are then where should our beer be categorized, as a hoppier subcategory of the British Isle style or as something wholly to itself? I was in London at a pub in October drinking a 3.7% abv IPA. The bartender asked what I thought of it and I told him that I liked it but that our IPAs in the States are generally above 6% abv. He responded, "Why do you guys do that?" Fri Dec 01 18:04:31 -0800 2006 2061175 26180 Chinon00 3 2062053 Just as a quick aside, Pilseners dont travel well and that was a big factor in that NYT article you mention. The thing is beer is an agricultural crop much like wine. While you can brew any type of beer anywhere in the world, some areas lend themselves better to some styles then do others. Whether its the mineral content of Czech waters, the strains of airborne yeasts in Bavaria or Belguim, the hops of the pacific northwest, etc.. it is going to have an effect on the beer. The united states happens to be blessed with such a varied cliamte and geography that most beer styles can be made here. This is clearly not the only factor driving what types of beer any one country can produce but it is an important one to consider. Also things in America tend to veer towards bigger and bolder flavours. This isnt neccessarily a bad thing. The american IPA is one of my favourite styles. To me it is a distinct variation on the original British version. As a hophead I have actually started down the path of no return to the 2xIPA and really havent looked back. Stone's Ruination and Russian River's Pliny the Elder are now two of my more common choices. i will admit that there are some beers on the market that are strictly hops and not much else but the two i mentioned above are both well rounded beers, just with a lot of hops. Along with the 2xIPA i also enjoy many other big beers. The reason is simple, they are complex brews that take a lot of skill to produce. They take more time, more ingredients and a well trained hand. This is a good thing much like the great Belgian beers which would be considered "big". Big is not something to be shied away from, it doesnt mean a one note beer. The better made ones are complex like any finely crafted beverage. I would put the American craft brew scene up against any other throughout the world in terms of skilled brewers and final products. They have made great strides in an industry that was once crushed by puritanical nutjobs in the early part of the century and the monopolistic blandness of the big three in the latter. Also i do not soley drink "big" beers, I drink whats good. Josh's list is a very good example of good breweries churning out wonderful "small" beers. Don't fear the big beer, learn to embrace the good ones for the complexities they offer. Fri Dec 01 18:01:31 -0800 2006 2060699 12484 MVNYC 2 2079617 Thanks for this post. Fritz Maytag turned an ailing brewery into a viable business, and with it I think encouraged countless home brewers to start commercial production. Now I can get Anchor Steam in plastic bottles at concerts where in the past I would have been stuck with bud in a glass. This is progress! Also, I can't help but point out that Anchor Steam is not a "big" beer, and one of Fritz's favorite projects is his Stout, which he does as a labor of love because it barely sells. That flies in the face of the thesis to some degree; I think we should just all be thankful we have so many options now, and that the broad spectrum of beer styles is being made all over America. Thu Dec 07 20:57:58 -0800 2006 2060280 17221 SteveG 3 2080046 I've never heard of Anchor Stout. Perhaps you mean Porter? Thu Dec 07 22:41:37 -0800 2006 2079617 10998 Jim Dorsch 4 2082621 Oops, you're right. Too much reading about all these different styles distracted me. I'll have to pump my dad for inside scoops on Anchor Steam news since he went to the brewery Christmas party/tour last night. Fri Dec 08 19:58:16 -0800 2006 2080046 17221 SteveG 2 2174718 Yeah, and I still miss New Albion . . . Wed Jan 10 21:31:14 -0800 2007 2060280 28122 zin1953 1 2061117 Sorry if I missed the original question... seems to be about "bigness"... Well, beer is all about bold flavor IMO... for the most part subtle=insipid in the world of great beer. Wheat in general is about as non-big as you're going to get because it's designed to be a lighter style for the warm summer months. But otherwise in the Fall and Winter alot of drinkers want a bold, substantial style. That said, I do have a few friends who shy away from heavier microbrews. Even given the option for a dramatic IPA they often pick a wheat or even a macro-brew... I think it has more to do with their own personal sensitivities and microbrews are never going to please these type drinkers anyway. Fri Dec 01 08:39:59 -0800 2006 2058925 42549 Chicago Mike 2 2061174 Perhaps 'integrity' is the word I seek to describe the essence of craft brewing. That doesn't necessarily imply big. Even the modest craft beer doesn't possess what to me is an insipid quality common to mass-market American lager beers. I don't think a craft beer must possess bold flavor. Lots of people want a lighter beer, but they don't feel like drinking BMC. Fri Dec 01 10:40:43 -0800 2006 2061117 10998 Jim Dorsch 2 2062719 I don't think I'd agree that subtle=inspid. Great German lagers have admirable subtleties that are in a class all their own. Another of my favorite styles is Belgian oud bruin, which are subtle and mild brown ales, but very delicious in a way that double IPA is not (I like double IPA too, I'm just saying it's a different kind of deliciousness). To me, all great beers are equal. I can have a great mellow lager, a great English bitter, a great witbier, IPA, stout, etc. and I love them all. Once you get into the realm of pairing food with beer, then you really can appreciate why you don't always want a bold flavored beer. Certain kinds of foods completely disappear under the assault of a big malt or hop monster. Mild English brown ales are perfect accompaniments to dishes that big IPAs would trample all over. Fri Dec 01 21:31:04 -0800 2006 2061117 10809 Josh 2 2144758 Try a wheat wine, then tell me wheat's about as non-big as you're going to get. Sure, there are plenty of pale wheat ales released in the summer, most of which are watery and bland, but there's plenty of flavor to be gotten from wheat. Tue Jan 02 05:56:39 -0800 2007 2061117 60435 braineater 1 2062598 Perhaps you could list some microbrews that have the type of qualities you're describing... There's a regional craft brew floating around Chicago which the owner describes as "great everyday beer" without all the fruit infusions and other extraneous stuff... it's a "lager" that I won't name here... anyway, I've tasted it several times and it's just boring... I don't see alot of value added to it over a budweiser... Another thing to use as a guide... go to any major micro-brew bar like the Map Room or Hop Leaf... and people are chugging down heavy beers for the most part... rich pale ales, stouts, and alot of belgian ales. Fri Dec 01 20:51:00 -0800 2006 2058925 42549 Chicago Mike 1 2063954 Further evidence: I read in the Dec/Jan issue of Mid-Atlantic Brewing News the following selected top ten beers for 2006 (I'm assuming in the US only): 10) Elysian Brewing - Tripel (Seattle, WA) 9) Max Lager's - Imperial IPA (Atlanta, GA) 8) Legend Brewing - Legend Imperial Stout (Richmond, VA) 7) Pizza Port Brewing - Hop Suey-Super Imperial IPA (Solano Beach, CA) 6) Five Seasons Brewing - 2004 Belgian Tripel (Sandy Spring, GA) 5) Green Flash Brewing - Green Flash IPA (San Diego, CA) 4) Dogfish Head Craft Brewery - Super-Cali-Fragile-Viscous-Cask-Conditioned 90 Minute IPA (Milton, DE) 3) Middle Ages Brewing - 11th Anniversary Double Wheat (Syracuse, NY) 2) Weyerbacher Brewing - 11th Anniversary Triple Imperial IPA (Easton, PA) 1) Sweetwater Tavern Cask-Conditioned High Desert Imperial Stout (Merrifield, VA) Only one lager can break the top ten (and it's an Imperial?) Where is the love for lighter styles? Could a beer like Staroprahmen make this list? Sat Dec 02 14:44:12 -0800 2006 2058925 26180 Chinon00 2 2064178 I don't see a single lager on your list. Max Lager's beer is an imperial IPA. One of my favorite lagers in the world is Victory's Prima Pils. That's a great beer that should be on that list. It seems to me that the beer scene is experiencing something like the wine scene did when everyone decided that the only wines worth getting excited about were big, giant Cabernets. You still see the residue of that today in restaurants when you overhear people ordering it with dishes that it makes no sense with. It may be that there's a certain amount of bandwagoning going on, where people are getting excited about the higher alcohol beers. Heck, even in this thread you have someone saying that to his palate, beer is all about bold flavor. My favorite local pub sells no German lagers at all. The only German beer they have is a double-bock. When I asked the owner why he doesn't have any, he told me that nobody ever asks for it, except for me. It seems the subtleties of those beers are lost on a number of modern hop-heads. What is encouraging is if you talk to beer makers, you find that those guys really do appreciate the full spectrum of flavors out there. Adam Avery is a good example to me. His White Rascal is a phenomenal witbier, a style that a lot of people dismiss because of its lightness. He makes it though because it's one of his favorite styles of beer. Another guy is the Russian River brewer, Vinnie Cilurzo. He makes a beer called Tempation, fermented with brettanomyces and aged in Chardonnay barrels. It's certainly not a hop-bomb, or even especially high in alcohol, but it's great and he's committed to making experimental Belgian-influenced beers. Sat Dec 02 17:04:55 -0800 2006 2063954 10809 Josh 3 2064218 About lagers on the list you are absolutely correct. I had a brain fart. In the brief text before the list the author mentioned Imperial Pilseners and I just mistakenly remembered it as part of the actual list. Sorry. I guess the difficulty with lists like these is that it's important to judge beers on their own terms. And how does one do that and fairly make a judgement when everything from Helles lager to Imperial stouts could be included in the mix? So today in America I think that the judgement of bigger beers being "better" is really just an indication of what is our collective "favorite" style right now. Unfortunately, to me bigness has gone almost to fetishism in some beer circles. Sat Dec 02 17:27:05 -0800 2006 2064178 26180 Chinon00 3 2064295 Temptation is a wonderful beer that people should go out of their way to try. Another American beer that is not big is Rogues morimoto soba ale. Very unique taste and very refreshing. I have to admit i do not really love wit beers. Just not my favourite style and i wasnt that impressed with white rascal. I did really enjoy avery's "big" version of an octoberfest, their Kaiser. Also to Josh, beer isnt neccessarily about bold flavours, its about what tastes good to you. I love an English brown ale or a czech pilsener, but if you were to ask me what is my choice to have as one beer before i die, it will be a bold beer. I dont really think that it is fair that there is an assumption in this thread that "big" beers and the reverence which they get is a bad thing. The OP seems to imply that those who like big beers are dolts who cannot appreciate the subtleties of the lighter styles. I think this is hogwash. Sat Dec 02 18:06:26 -0800 2006 2064178 12484 MVNYC 4 2064639 I'm not sure that's what the OP intended. I know for myself that often in conversation with beer geeks (and I am also a beer geek) I notice the more mild, less overt styles get short shrift, at least a lot of the time. On the other hand, a lot of the homebrewers I've met through O'Brien's aren't like that at all. I went to a QUAFF Christmas party and the range of styles that their members make is really impressive. I think, for myself anyway, my only complaint (if you can call it that) with the big beer focus is that I see it turning off people who might like some of the more mild styles. I've met a lot of people who say they don't like beer, based on experiences with American macro-brew swill. However, to get one of these people to turn around and love Pliny the Elder is probably a big leap. Yes, Pliny is amazing, but I know that I've turned many people on to beer by giving them stuff like witbier, or Duchess de Bourgogne. These are beers that really make people re-evaluate what they think beer is all about. Sat Dec 02 21:08:34 -0800 2006 2064295 10809 Josh 2 2064317 I lived in Prague and drank a lot of Staropramen at its source. It is an above average beer but to me it was nothing special. It was a great beer that was cheap and you could drink alot of, but i never once sipped it and said wow that is spectacular. By the time it gets to the US it is a pale shadow of its former self. I cant really drink Czech beers here in the US as pilseners really do not travel well. The beers on the above list that i have tried did make me say wow. I think most beer geeks simply do not love lighter styles. I drink what im in the mood for and sometimes i want something lighter but If it came down to what i thought was best, it wouldn't be a light style. The complexities are not there. Lagers are refreshing drinks to have on hot days or to pair with certain types of food that couldnt stand up to a more full flavoured beer. Sat Dec 02 18:15:03 -0800 2006 2063954 12484 MVNYC 3 2064483 I think that I hear what you are saying but I think that we might be comparing apples to oranges in comparing lagers to ales. I last had a Staropramen in London (not exactly the source but close(r)). It was perfect for me and the SO at the time. But true, by definition the bigger styles do provide "more" so on that basis I guess they win. Sat Dec 02 19:37:48 -0800 2006 2064317 26180 Chinon00 3 2070418 MVNYC, you've made the claim here twice that ``pilsners don't travel well.'' With all due respect, that's a load of hooey. Back in the pre-refrigeration days, beers may have needed additional hopping or hefty alcohol to travel well, but today, that's not the case. That said, I think we've all had crap pilsner from overseas, but the biggest reason is the whole green/clear glass skunkiness issue. Tue Dec 05 02:32:03 -0800 2006 2064317 11796 tuqueboy 4 2070906 Pilsners dont travel well. They obviously fare worse in green bottles. However they don't taste as good on tap as they do closer to the source. Beer that is not meant to be aged is always better the closer it is to its brewing date. Pilseners are not meant to be aged. How long do you think it tastes for a Czech pilsener to travel to the US? Long enough for there to be a degradation in the taste of the product. Having lived in the Czech republic, there is no comparison. Tue Dec 05 06:36:43 -0800 2006 2070418 12484 MVNYC 1 2064516 you are right it is comparing apples to oranges. Ales and lagers are different and should be treated as such. I am partial to ales myself but can and do enjoy a good lager(i gained 40 lbs in prague drinking lager, cheaper than water). If you prefer lagers, there are good ones to be had. But as i said earlier there are certain styles that some countries do better than the others. It is my understanding that the mineral content of Czech waters are a huge infkluence on the final product. Sat Dec 02 19:54:54 -0800 2006 2058925 12484 MVNYC 2 2064645 I've had some truly incredible German lagers that I picked up from Holiday Wine Cellars. Really interesting and complex malt flavors. As an aside, I was just at Holiday a couple of nights ago, and discovered that you can walk into the cooler from the back and browse a bunch of beers they don't even have on display up front. Picked up a De Ranke Pere Noel that really floored me, along with a couple of JW Lees 1998 Harvest Ales, also amazing. Sat Dec 02 21:10:53 -0800 2006 2064516 10809 Josh 1 2066960 It seems like a simple issue of what is memorable. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has a fridge full of "drinking" beers and a cellar of "occasion" beers. The same effect is seen in the wine world where big expensive Cabs tend to make up the a larger % of Top 100-type lists. There's more of a "wow" factor in a bigger more complex beer. There's a joke about German brewers that I like. If you put 20 of them in a room and told them their Pilsners all tasted the same they would thank you and say, "Yah, that is how a Pilsner should taste." So there's a perception that a brewer is doing his job making a beer that tastes like a Pilsner. Stepping out on a limb is where a brewer gets noticed. I think the acceptance of bigger beers (and bigger prices) is a good thing. It keeps a brewer's creative juices flowing, it effects the palates of consumers, and it helps to dispell the notion that beer is unsophistcated. But there will always be a market for "standard" products. For example, right now in my fridge I have part of a six pack of Fish Organic Pale ale, a couple bottles of Baron Pils and a Schlenkerla Rauchbier. Nothing over 5%. I'll have one of these tonight with dinner. But after UCLA's glorious victory yesterday, I went into the cellar and pulled out a Bigfoot 2000 barleywine. Mon Dec 04 01:06:40 -0800 2006 2058925 20858 Kevin B 2 2067164 I kinda disagree that it takes bigger beers to help "dispell the notion that beer is unsophisticated". If it is your opinion that "sophisticated" = dense and rich then maybe. But for me it could mean many things. A German Pilsner like Radeberger Pilsner for me offers flavors like fresh cut grass and steel on the palate. The first time that I had Dirty Dick's Mild honestly I didn't get it. But overtime I grew to understand and appreciate the quiet, orangey-tea flavor and soft feathery mouth feel. Then there's Stout's Scarlet Lady (ESB), Fuller's London Pride (Pale) and Fuller's ESB all which I would consider sophisticated without being obviously so. Having said that though I'm hear to tell ya' that I do love Lagunitas' Brown Shugga. Mon Dec 04 03:10:38 -0800 2006 2066960 26180 Chinon00 3 2067419 No, not that bigger = sophisticated, but that idea that some beers are WORTH $20+ per bottle due to production costs, etc. Russian River gets a mention on their bretanomyces beer but I also really like and will shell out for Pizza Port Mo Betta Bretta type beer. It's 6.3% (not huge) but it took over a year to brew so $20 isn't out of line. For me, it's a recognition that it's a quality artisan product that matters. As for Fullers ESB, I think it falls into the "expected" category. It is great, but I assume a quality English ESB will taste like that. There are some artisan beers of low alcohol that blow me away but the majority of beers that give me that holy sh** impression are bigger. Mon Dec 04 05:14:39 -0800 2006 2067164 20858 Kevin B 1 2067505 Theres really no major reason to sacrifice a fully-developed beer for price... In the Chicago area you can drink Goose Island IPA all day long for 6.99 a 6-pack... a great IPA that is 85 to 90% of Alpha King... You can get North Coast Rasputin for about 1.50 or 1.75 a bottle... a tremendous knockout stout There's alot of great wheats for the 5 to 6 dollar range... No financial reason to drink some fizzy insipid beer anymore really... Mon Dec 04 06:11:16 -0800 2006 2058925 42549 Chicago Mike 1 2068228 I think we'll eventually see a proliferation of more subtle craft beers, or maybe they're already there and we're not paying attention. There are lots of regular folks out there who aren't beer geeks but do appreciate a well-made beverage. The huge stuff is consumed by a relatively small, but vocal group IMO. But speaking of bigness, Great Divide is a good example of a brewery that has thrived by embracing big beers in recent years. But as I say, perhaps they're selling to a relatively small group of drinkers. That's something we can't determine. Mon Dec 04 16:13:34 -0800 2006 2058925 10998 Jim Dorsch 2 2069295 Great Divide is awesome. Their big imperial IPA is a low-cost version of Dreadnaught... and their Barleywine & Stouts are fine also. They have a "wood cask" version of their stout that I don't like as much as the regular version... But after drinking Great Divides best stuff, how can you drink a fizzy microbrew ??? Mon Dec 04 20:45:22 -0800 2006 2068228 42549 Chicago Mike 1 2069258 I think that a small part of it may be an American culture that is quick to associate size or extremes with "better" at times too. There's a vending machine in my office that has the actual internal temperature of the machine proudly displayed in digital alpha-numeric symbols: (34F!) or some such. Coor's gives us the "Coldest Beer on Earth" and there is the "Super-Size-Me" world of fast food (do we really need cheese IN the crust or THAT much pepperoni on top). There was an American motorcycle that boasted 1,000HP, there are monster truck shows, and large military off-road vehicles that some of us use to negociate those treacherous journeys from our suburban garages to the office parking lot. All these things seize upon our cultural love of extremes. This ibu, %abv, and flavor concentration popularity thing to me in the microbrew world might be partially of the same school at least from some (small and vocal) consumers. Mon Dec 04 20:36:12 -0800 2006 2058925 26180 Chinon00 2 2069531 These big beers are certainly a way to stand out, too, but as I mentioned, with a small core group of consumers. Looking at it purely as PR, it's a great way to keep getting mentioned in the beer papers. Mon Dec 04 21:37:48 -0800 2006 2069258 10998 Jim Dorsch 2 2070915 Do belgians have the same problem? Most of the great belgian beers fall under one of your extreme categories of %abv or flavour. The fact is that most Americans dont prefer the extreme style tis time. Its actually the minority unlike most American extremes. Most americans drink swill Tue Dec 05 06:41:00 -0800 2006 2069258 12484 MVNYC 3 2072414 Firstly, this was strictly a microbrew conversation that we were having so "American swill" wasn't an issue on the table. Secondly, I disagree that "most of the great belgian beers fall under one of [my] extreme categories of %abv or flavour." Saisons, Sour (Red) Ales, Witbier, lambics (Geuze in particular), etc are all between 4-8 %abv and wouldn't be categorized as big in the same sense as the American "big" micro is. This brings me back to my original point in a way. Belgium is distinguished from other countries for their grand variety of beers both big and small(er) that they have created. The original question was how are we here in the States distinguishing ourselves. Tue Dec 05 19:22:32 -0800 2006 2070915 26180 Chinon00 4 2072461 Another important aspect of bigness that is missing in Belgians is hops. I recently had a Belgian "IPA", made by a Belgian brewer after a visit to the US (d'Achouffe Houblon). It was more hoppy than most Belgians, but still was a far cry from the extreme hoppiness found in the US big beers. It seems to me the bigness isn't solely about alcohol content. Tue Dec 05 19:34:37 -0800 2006 2072414 10809 Josh 5 2072491 I meant that the great Belgians were full of taste, big in character and nut as subtle as a english brown ale, or a pilsener. All of those styles you mention above are examples of beer with alot of flavour, especially the lambics. My point about american swill is that most americans do not drink icrobrews and if they do they arent drinking the "big" beers. It is the beer nerds that love these big beers as they are usualy too intense for most people. This isnt an issue of it being an american desire to have the biggest or the boldest. American brewers have created some of the worlds best beers in many styles so to say that bigness is an example of crude american culture related to super sizing is insulting. The super size people are the ones who dont like bitter beer and enjoy their coors and keystone. If you can celebrate the diversity in the Belgian brewing scene then you certainly can in the American. The fact is American brewers are leading the charge in creating new styles and we will have to wait and see as to what types of American beer we become known for. We are distinguishing ourselves for both dumbing down beer(ie macro swill) and creating wonderful new varieties. Tue Dec 05 19:46:20 -0800 2006 2072461 12484 MVNYC 6 2072798 There has been a tendency in our culture to place value on things for a singular feature such as size or intensity. I don't think that any area (including microbrew) is completely immune to this phenomenon. We have been going through something similar to an "Arms Race" when it comes to adding hops and "imperializing" in American brewing over the past 10 years. Even other countries are trying to cash in on this interest of ours: Beer Advocate - "Belgian IPA Description: Inspired by the American India Pale Ale (IPA) and Double IPA, more and more Belgian brewers are brewing hoppy pale colored ales for the US market (like Chouffe & Urthel), and there's been an increase of Belgian IPAs being brewed by American brewers. Generally, Belgian IPAs are considered too hoppy by Belgian beer drinkers." So all I'm saying is that in some microbrew circles beers are embraced and fetishised strickly for their bigness and that this has led brewers to produce beers to meet this interest which I think is an odd basis for beer design. Maybe this will have a minimal long term affect on what we choose to produce and eventually be known for here in the States (which is my hope). Tue Dec 05 21:05:03 -0800 2006 2072491 26180 Chinon00 7 2072998 The question is, though, are brewers making these beers solely to placate the American beer geek's palate? Or is this imitation as the sincerest form of flattery? Maybe the Belgian brewers producing those hoppier styles didn't do so before, despite wanting to, because the locals were too hidebound to appreciate them? I used to write about beer for a local publication, and I interviewed all the local brewers. I never once got the sense from any of them that they were going big in order to please a certain market. In fact, the overwhelming sentiment was that these guys were thrilled that there was a market willing to support their experimentation. If you look at a brewery like Port Brewing in San Diego, one of their brewers (Tomme Arthur) has produced a whole line of Belgian and French farmhouse ales, including saisons and bieres de gardes, with some very experimental ingredients. The brewing scene in general seems very congenial, with brewers happily borrowing influences from all over the world. At Stone Brewing, they told me about a guy from Japan who interned with them, who then went back to his home country to brew barleywine sold in cans. While I do somewhat agree that excessive focus on big and bold at the expense of subtlety is a mistake, I doubt that serious craft brewers will stop producing more subtle varieties. Tue Dec 05 21:47:54 -0800 2006 2072798 10809 Josh 7 2073168 Do you really think that people only like a beer because it is big? I happen to think the long arduous process of breweing big beers lends itself to the character of some of the offerings. This isnt to equate big with best. There are many beers that are considered big that are strictly one note. However many of these big "fetishzied" beers happen to be real knockouts. Have you tried some of these big beers more than once? Maybe this is why you dont get that they strictly arent valued for bigness. The better ones are fairly complex and could stand up to a nice glass of scotch Tue Dec 05 22:22:56 -0800 2006 2072798 12484 MVNYC 8 2073173 The other night I enjoyed an English big beer - JW Lees Harvest Ale. It's 11.5%, complex, and delicious. Tue Dec 05 22:25:02 -0800 2006 2073168 10809 Josh 1 2070404 The Mid-Atlantic Brewing News article that I quoted from earlier mentioned that "on the rise [are] organic beers and fresh hop or hop harvest beers." I understand the idea but I've never had either of these beer styles. What makes them special or interesting? Tue Dec 05 02:23:55 -0800 2006 2058925 26180 Chinon00 2 2072659 Marketing. IMO organic beers are usually somewhat boring - organic hops are hard to find in the wide variety that non-organic is offered, and they are more expensive to produce, so organic brewers won't make a bold organic beer for the most part. As far as wet (or fresh) hop beers, I've had a dozen probably, and everyone except one has dissapointed me. The only one I liked included alot of dry hopping as well. Most of the wet hopped beer was one dimensional vegetal flavors with grassy bitterness - you can't even tell the difference between hop varieties. I think its a waste of good hops since you need like 7 times the weight of dried hops for similar effect. Tue Dec 05 20:32:26 -0800 2006 2070404 12014 LStaff 3 2073007 Wet hop beers need to be fresh. I had one I really liked, called Aromatherapy Pale Ale, on draft. I had it a week later, and it was noticeably worse for wear. Tue Dec 05 21:49:38 -0800 2006 2072659 10809 Josh 3 2075444 I wish to make it clear again that I enjoy all styles of beer including big American ones. What I dislike is the fact that these big beers get celebrated the most in the beer press, beer websites, etc. And moreover, when it comes to their marketing their producers at times provide the IBU value of the beer on the label and name their creations things like: Hop Devil (Victory) Hop Wallop (Victory) Hops Infusion (Weyerbacher) Hop Hog (Lancaster) Hop Hazard (Riverhorse) Hop-It (Urthel) Hop Back (Troegs) Hop Ottin (Anderson Valley) Hop Rod Rye (Bear Republic) Hoptimus Prime (Nodding Head) It is this beer culture or beer subculture (which includes the “Imperializers”) that again is getting most of the attention these days. I’d rather have things placed in their proper perspective and see or hear more about these new subtle American styles that are apparently out there but that I rarely see or hear celebrated in the beer press. Wed Dec 06 17:58:06 -0800 2006 2072659 26180 Chinon00 4 2075870 Perhaps the beer press, beer web sites, etc. reflect that particular segment's (beer reviewers, as you cited their review scores) celebration of ale that is not the typical macro-pap? I'm pretty sure most micro businesses are not beholden to hype and a very small segment of the beer drinking community when it comes to their business plans; to do so would likely mean their certain demise. As far as what micros are up to that might not be considered "big," how about gruits, sahtis, braggots, and the various spiced beers that come out seasonally? Granted, not American per se, but what other country brews a pumpkin ale, for example? Are these celebrated in the sources you named? Perhaps not, but they are certainly noted by beer lovers whose palates have evolved beyond "big." Wed Dec 06 19:34:30 -0800 2006 2075444 46700 Truh 5 2076410 I have been a fan of Pumpkin ale since the early 90s. It makes wonderful gastronomic sense to me. I’ve also liked the rye beers that I have tried. Lancaster Brewing Company makes an Amish Four Grain (featuring oats, rye, and wheat) that’s very interesting, introducing different spicy and sharp flavors to beer. Wed Dec 06 21:52:57 -0800 2006 2075870 26180 Chinon00 6 2076626 Wow that four grain beer sounds awesome. Wish we got that out here. Wed Dec 06 22:41:06 -0800 2006 2076410 10809 Josh 7 2078890 Yes I find experimentation with the kind of ingredients used (as opposed to only the amount) very interesting because they bring brand new flavor profiles into play. The first time that I tried Amish Four Grain it was challenging and it still might not be my first choice. It was however a departure from what else is generally available (without being a novelty act like blueberry, or white chocolate beer). If the beer geeks, beer press, etc would get excited about this strain of experimentation (as well as the bigger stuff) we’d be better served I believe as consumers. I think that we may have perfected the big beer in the States. Now let’s begin to perfect something else. PS – Dogfish Head HAS perfected the Pumpkin Ale. Thu Dec 07 18:12:25 -0800 2006 2076626 26180 Chinon00 8 2078906 I've always enjoyed the rye-based beers I've tried. Another favorite is Rogue's Morimoto Soba Ale, brewed with buckwheat. You might enjoy a lot of Rogue's offerings, actually. They make some really great, varied beers. Thu Dec 07 18:16:05 -0800 2006 2078890 10809 Josh 8 2081760 Hitachino Nest is a great example of new flavor profiles. Unusual and well made: Japanese Ale (aged in cedar barrels) and Red Rice Ale. Not for everybody but i really like 'em. Fri Dec 08 16:15:57 -0800 2006 2078890 16728 kenito799 9 2082263 This was strictly an American micro brew conversation. Fri Dec 08 18:33:41 -0800 2006 2081760 26180 Chinon00 3 2152579 I think Pinkus Organic Pils is fantastic. I couldn't care less really about the fact that it is organic, but the beer really brings out a blueberry smell and taste. Thu Jan 04 17:21:12 -0800 2007 2072659 12853 mr mouther 1 2071086 I've not been impressed by the organic beers I have tried, primarily Wolaver's and Bison, although there have been a few others. If you have ever smelled or sucked on a fresh hop cone, that is the flavor you get from a fresh hop or harvest beer. It is a flavor that fades quickly in just a couple of months time, however. Look for the Great Divide Fresh Hop as a great example of the style that has fairly broad distribution. Tue Dec 05 11:53:58 -0800 2006 2058925 10395 brentk 1 2144878 You have overlooked the entirity of American beer. More session beers get brewed here than big beers. Don't get fooled by the (much deserved) love for big beers in America. What makes American craft beer cool is not the big crazy stuff. It's the fact that EVERYTHING is brewed here. You have to hunt for it, yes. But, you can get every style of beer known to the world here save a few extremely rare styles like Faro and someone is probably working on that. Are they as good as the native versions? No. But, what US brewers do better than anyone else is copy well. We may not make the best Belgian, German or English beers, but we make better Belgian beers than the English do....Better English Beers than the Belgians do and better German beers than anyone but the Germans do. Plus we rock the big beers. America makes great beer plain and simple and while we definitely do not have 500 years of tradition it can't be denied that America deserves a spot at the upper echelon of the brewing greats. Tue Jan 02 10:20:52 -0800 2007 2058925 63505 Degarth 2 2144916 I would say some American beers are better than the native versions. I recall, for example, several years ago Michael Jackson gave four stars (world classic) to Geary's Hampshire Special, a British-style beer made in Portland, ME. But what some American breweries do exceedingly well is innovate. Beers like Sierra Nevada Pale Ale are styles that were invented in the US. And let's not forget American barley wine, American IPA, American brown ale. American breweries took their cue from overseas and remade those styles, making them their own. Tue Jan 02 12:17:53 -0800 2007 2144878 10998 Jim Dorsch 3 2145421 And I think that it would be fair to describe "American barley wine, American IPA, American brown ale" as BIG which comes back to my original point. Tue Jan 02 17:31:13 -0800 2007 2144916 26180 Chinon00 4 2146324 I don't think American brown ale is particularly big, other than its being maybe 13 Plato vs something probably lower in the UK. American IPA isn't necessarily big, other than having a typical OG for the style, unlike many modern British beers called IPAs. Regardless, I used these as examples, and I also used American Pale Ale as an example, and APA also isn't particularly big. Tue Jan 02 21:48:08 -0800 2007 2145421 10998 Jim Dorsch 5 2146462 Question - What in your opinion is our most prominent and lightest American craft beer style? Tue Jan 02 22:23:10 -0800 2007 2146324 26180 Chinon00 6 2146863 My first answer would be hefeweizen. Wed Jan 03 00:27:24 -0800 2007 2146462 10998 Jim Dorsch 7 2147114 Hefeweizen is not an American craft beer style. Things approaching Hefeweizen are made in the States (some quite well actually). But as far as I'm aware we haven't "remade [that] [style] making [it] [our} own" yet. So again I ask, what is our most prominent and lightest American craft beer style IYO? Wed Jan 03 01:43:51 -0800 2007 2146863 26180 Chinon00 8 2147239 A hefeweizen such as Widmer or Pyramid is an American invention, as it's not fermented with the yeasts the Germans use, which throw off phenolics. Wed Jan 03 02:33:15 -0800 2007 2147114 10998 Jim Dorsch 8 2147263 There is definitely an American wheat style that is distinct from German. The widest available commercial example I can think of is Sierra Nevada's wheat beer. It tastes nothing like a German hefeweizen. Locally, Alpine brewing makes an outstanding American wheat, but you can't get it outside his brewery. Wed Jan 03 02:41:29 -0800 2007 2147114 10809 Josh 9 2147315 I'll third that- I tend to think of them as American Wheat Ales, and that's what came to mind when Jim posted about them. Just when the hell did they start calling them Hefeweizens anyway? I suppose if they have yeast in the bottle it is technically true, but honestly I'd like to see a little more truth in advertizing in that regard, and it just leads to further confusion on the part of the consumer. Anyway- they style grew out of early homebrewing when the proper yeast strains weren't available and a neutral ale yeast was used for a typical wheat beer recipe. At this point it is a definite style with multiple commercial examples so I'd say it answers Chinon00's question. If anybody is ever in NJ they should try Ramstein's take on the German Hefeweizen style. They have a proprietary yeast strain, and really know how to use it. Wed Jan 03 03:03:43 -0800 2007 2147263 12713 TongoRad 10 2147446 Honestly having observed and tasted UFO, Pyramid, et al, wheat beers at pubs for years I never considered them to be a distinct wheat beer style. I just considered them to be attempts at the "real stuff". Apparently I was wrong and they are distinct in both malt, yeast and hops. But I wonder how many people who regularly consume AWA actually reference (and appreciate) any broad difference between it and German Hefe or do they as I did see them as a reasonable attempt at Hefe? Wed Jan 03 03:57:26 -0800 2007 2147315 26180 Chinon00 11 2147543 Pyramid, to my palate, tastes like an attempt at a German hefeweizen. I'd say the same for Widmer. American Wheat is very clean-tasting. It has none of the banana-clove esters found in the German styles (which Widmer and Pyramid both have). The only American wheats I've encountered in So Cal are Sierra Nevada and Alpine. I'd love to try some others though, if anyone can think of any. http://www.sierranevada.com/beers/wheat.html Wed Jan 03 04:34:50 -0800 2007 2147446 10809 Josh 12 2147597 Sierra Nevada and Anchor's versions have been around for a while- they were probably the earliest ones. As to whether Pyramid and Widmer fall into that category- I don't have easy access to many of the west coast beers and haven't had them recently, but the BJCP Style Guidelines list them as commercial examples of the style- so now you've got me curious... Wed Jan 03 04:53:28 -0800 2007 2147543 12713 TongoRad 12 2147847 I don't want to take this off too far on a tangient, but I've never noticed the clove/banana notes in either Widmer or Pyramid hefeweizen. To answer TongoRad, I don't believe it's unfair to call an unfiltered wheat beer a hefeweizen, since it fits the definition (and note that even in Germany, you have Erdinger Hefeweizen, which has little or none of the clove/banana normally ascribed to the style). Again, I don't want to take this thread further off-topic by going on about this anymore. Wed Jan 03 07:27:21 -0800 2007 2147543 10998 Jim Dorsch 13 2148572 Really? I find that surprising. Whenever I've had Widmer I've noticed it. I'm not really a fan of either Widmer or Pyramid, and part of my dislike of Widmer comes from those notes. I find it kind of off-putting. It may just be that I'm sensitive to it, and that it's not really pronounced. I generally don't much care for Bavarian hefeweizen for that very reason. I love the Sierra wheat, though. Wed Jan 03 16:50:23 -0800 2007 2147847 10809 Josh 1 2146585 I agree that there are not many light craft beers. That being said there are many light beers that have been brewed for many years and have become HUGE aka BMC. But you are thinking America's love for the big is bad, but watch Food Network, Bobby Flay, Emiril or any otherhot chef would not be as popular without pushing the limits. Tue Jan 02 23:04:32 -0800 2007 2058925 63643 niquejim 1 2156533 So far from what I've read here and from other publications AWA is usually a filtered wheat beer with no estery-banana-clove thing happening and noticeable hop flavor (relative to standard hefe). Would that be correct? I'll try and get my hands on both some AWA (Sierra) and domestic hefe (Widmer and/or Pyramid) this weekend and report back. When I went through my Hacker-Pschorr-Franziskaner-Weihenstephan-Tucher-Paulaner hefe stage I focused and enjoyed the estery clove flavor. Hope that doesn't bias me on AWA. Fri Jan 05 17:54:53 -0800 2007 2058925 26180 Chinon00 2 2156879 Checking Sierra's website, it seems theirs is unfiltered, as are Widmer and Pyramid. However, there're definitely no banana-clove esters in Sierra. Seems the only unfiltered AWA I had was up at Alpine. Fri Jan 05 19:00:23 -0800 2007 2156533 10809 Josh 1 2161181 Ok so tonight I've tried Widmer Hefe, Sierra Wheat, and Blue Star Wheat. I found Widmer to be very clean and pleasant with a nice body and obvious hop flavor. Sierra was similiar with a bolder hop flavor however. The Blue Star is the closest to a German Hefe with something close to a clove-banana thing working. So of the 3, Blue Star is the closest to a German Hefe while for me Widmer was the more pleasant experience of the 2 American Wheats. I think that I better understand AWA and consider it a viable option for me for a lighter American style micro. Does anyone have any other suggestions for lighter style American created craft beers? Thanks! Sun Jan 07 02:42:49 -0800 2007 2058925 26180 Chinon00 1 2186758 Troegs Dream Weaver is in the Bavarian style (I tried one tonight). I got clove, banana, pineapple, and clove. I was very pleased with this American version of wheat beer. Sun Jan 14 02:58:17 -0800 2007 2058925 26180 Chinon00 1 2187192 I bought a sixer of Dechuttes Black Butte Porter yesterday. This was no where near a "big beer" yet was really tasty. Chinon00, I don't know if you are into porters, but this one is a nice subtle English style one. I got it for $6.99 here in SD at Vons. Not as straight foward as i usually like my porters, but it eneded up being a very appropriate winter beer(it was very cold tonight for SOCal). If you can get this in PA, give it a shot. Sun Jan 14 06:57:03 -0800 2007 2058925 12484 MVNYC 2 2235386 Thanks, I'll look out for it. On another note would it be a true statement that say ten years ago all of us "beer geeks" were totally into the Belgians? Now however to my observation domestic micro either now shares the stage or surpasses Belgians in terms of popularity with beer geeks and beer lovers in general in America. This for me represented a watershed moment for American beer identity. Sun Jan 28 10:57:12 -0800 2007 2187192 26180 Chinon00 3 2236131 The beer geeks I know still hold Belgians up very high. I think it'd be fairer to say that with the improved quality of micros, people now enjoy a broader variety of good beer. Before there were all these great micros, if you wanted something good your choices were pretty much limited to European exports. I went to a Belgian beer dinner at one of the local breweries, and they served a 50/50 split of American Belgian-style ales and true Belgian beers. The American attempts were good, but there was a clear difference in depth of flavor between the two. Sun Jan 28 15:54:52 -0800 2007 2235386 10809 Josh 4 2236825 I agree that American attempts at Belgian style are on average inferior to the original. However, across the board, today there is much more excitement for American beers by Americans than say 10 years ago. Who on the East coast could have named three micro brews from the Midwest or California back then? As an Easterner all that I knew U.S. beer wise outside the east coast during the mid 90s was: Pete's Wicked (TX), Anchor Steam (CA), Rogue (OR), Sierra Nevada (CA), and Celis (TX). Sun Jan 28 20:33:51 -0800 2007 2236131 26180 Chinon00 1 2241014 I am still into Belgians, I would just have to agree with both you that the selection and quality of the American brewing scene has really gotten a lot better. Mon Jan 29 23:32:38 -0800 2007 2058925 12484 MVNYC 1 2241373 I guess that my greater point was that at some point American micro was regarded as equal to Belgian in terms of what non-macro American drinkers consumed. Somewhere in the late 90s or so I think that this occurred. Before then (I'd say from the early to mid 90s) Belgian was all the rage amongst non-macro people. I think that Belgian was so wacky that is broadened our idea of what beer was and maybe led to the acceptance of a broader variety of both domestic and imported brews. Tue Jan 30 08:51:26 -0800 2007 2058925 26180 Chinon00 1 2326838 I had a wonderful experience at the Drafting Room in Exton, Pennsylvania today. They featured the following on draft: Drafting Room 12th Anniversary Ale (brewed by Troeg's) Weyerbacher Eleven Victory Ten Year's Alt Brooklyn Cuvee d' Achouffe Chouffe Brooklynette (la Gnomette II) Bell's Hopslam Ale Russian River Pliny the Younger Two Brothers Hop Juice Southern tier un*earthly ipa North Coast Brother Thelonius Sierra Nevada Torpedo Ale Blue Point Oatmeal Stout (firkin) Troegs Nugget Nectar 2006 (cask-conditioned) Stone 10th Anniversary India Pale Ale I had them all but the sickest were the Stone, Weyerbacher, Pliny, Sierra Nevada, and Victory. This was one of the greatest beer drinking experiences of my life. Thank you Drafting Room for a great time. Pliny RULES! Sat Feb 24 22:05:17 -0800 2007 2058925 26180 Chinon00 2 2326946 Wow, I'm pretty amazed you got to try Pliny out there in PA. I didn't know Russian River beer made it that far afield. Their beers are some of my favorites. Pliny the Elder is a great double IPA. Hopefully you'll get the chance to try that as well. Sun Feb 25 00:09:15 -0800 2007 2326838 10809 Josh