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For No Knead Bread, What Does the Second Rise Do?

kiwijen Nov 20, 2006 06:56 PM

As I understand the Bittman article about Lahey's no-knead bread, the process is as follows: mix the ingredients and wait 18 hours, then fold it over and rest for 15 mins, then put on floured towel, sprinkle with flour. Leave alone for 2 hours. About a half hour before baking, heat the pot and oven. Put bread in oven and bake for 30 mins. Take off cover and bake for 15-30 more.

My husband and I have made about 7 loaves (including whole wheat and rye, herbs, different shapes) at this point and really like it. So now it's time to mess with it further.

Here's my question: If you're not kneading the bread at the 18 hour point, you are simply shaping and covering with flour and letting it sit for another 2 hours. So why is this considered a second rise?

Thus: If you put the dough in an oiled bowl instead of a floured towel, couldn't you just skip this "second rise" step and just put the 18-20 hour bread in the hot pot and bake without shaping/flouring? (Of course, it might look different and the oil might affect the crispness of the crust. But if you want the floury looking top, you could just sprinkle some flour on top.)

It seems like this would simplify the recipe further without sacrificing anything. Do you agree?

We're going to try this out. I'll let you know how it goes.

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  1. g
    ghbrooklyn RE: kiwijen Nov 20, 2006 07:02 PM

    I think the second rise is important to structural integrity of the loaf interior.

    1. kiwijen RE: kiwijen Nov 20, 2006 10:48 PM

      How so? My husband thinks we'd get pita bread if we cooked it without the fold/rise.

      Any thoughts?

      1 Reply
      1. re: kiwijen
        ghbrooklyn RE: kiwijen Nov 20, 2006 11:18 PM

        if you punched it down and immediately put in the oven, you probably would get a flatbread. I make naan, and between dough division and pulling out the individual breads, there is only a brief(15-20 min) rest.

      2. r
        rainey RE: kiwijen Nov 21, 2006 02:30 AM

        I think the primary thing is after you've shaped the loaf and disturbed/redistibuted the gas colony that develops during the ferment you let it have another rise to develop all the uniformly distributed pockets of gas that will give it the oven spring.

        Plus you're letting the "skin" develop on the surface. The skin is what will hold the dough together so it doesn't go wide or just burst and let all the gas escape but increases in a controlled manner like a balloon whose expanding air mass is contained within a membrane.

        3 Replies
        1. re: rainey
          ghbrooklyn RE: rainey Nov 21, 2006 04:15 AM

          thank you rainey. better said than I ever could have.

          1. re: rainey
            opinionatedchef RE: rainey Nov 21, 2006 08:38 PM

            rainey, i really appreciate your articulateness in this response. if you are not a teacher by profession, you certainly have EXCELLENT communication skills- a most valuable asset in this world!

            1. re: opinionatedchef
              rainey RE: opinionatedchef Nov 21, 2006 10:54 PM

              Thanks. How kind of you. I *was* a pre-school teacher once upon a time but that's some 10 years of tying to improve my breadmaking talking. ;->

          2. kiwijen RE: kiwijen Nov 21, 2006 01:49 PM

            Thanks so much! I appreciate your knowledge!

            1. b
              BangorDin RE: kiwijen Nov 21, 2006 02:57 PM

              Will a *3rd* rise improve the bread further?

              2 Replies
              1. re: BangorDin
                rainey RE: BangorDin Nov 21, 2006 03:32 PM

                Interesting question. If you think of the flour and water that are in the dough as the food for the yeasts and the oxygen that's present as it's atmosphere, then there is a limit to how long the colony can go on growing. You begin with a mere 1/4 teaspoon of dry yeast. But once activated they're multiplying like crazy in that rich environment. And that's a geometric relationship, so the longer you go the more there are reproducing, consuming starch & water and producing alcohol & carbon dioxide.

                Now, I'm guessing a third rise is possible. And I've often revived an overlooked batch of conventional bread dough by giving it additional flour and a good knead for aeration. But expect your dough to be much more liquid at that point and not optimal. Your loaf will probably be flatter and more sour. But, know what? The ingredients are cheap and the learning opportunity is there. Go for it and let us know what happens.

                1. re: rainey
                  BangorDin RE: rainey Nov 21, 2006 03:34 PM

                  Ah, you've just answered one of my newest questions--thank you! I just posted 2 others!

              2. b
                ben61820 RE: kiwijen Nov 21, 2006 03:41 PM

                yes, id agree that a third rise is an option BUT, given that that first rise was so long (18hr!!!) it might be really unnecessary. like the above poster mentioned there is only so much food for the yeasties to consume. one of the risks you run with over-rising, over-proofing, etc is the collapse of the entire dough due to the exhausting of food for the yeast and subsiquent structural issues. but, what the hell, its just flour and water, etc so give her a shot.
                one general 'rule' ive found in my amatuer baking is that the more time given to any yeast-risen dough is always better (until the breaking point like i mentioned above). fermentation fermentation fermentation - thats where youre getting a lot of the great flavor development. pretty much the longer you let the dough mass ferment, the more that the bacteria (yeast in this case) can eat up the starch and turn it to sugars which we all like:) thus, the more the better. thats the same reasoning why Lahey says that 12 hours is OK but 18-19 hours is even better. see, longer the better:)

                3 Replies
                1. re: ben61820
                  BangorDin RE: ben61820 Nov 21, 2006 03:59 PM

                  I know all of you have better to do than to answer these basic questions--many resources are right here online, many books too. But is there one better/bigger than all the rest? Or is this (Chowhound) it? Since this bread technique is so "new", maybe available regular bread info is not useful.

                  1. re: BangorDin
                    ben61820 RE: BangorDin Nov 21, 2006 04:06 PM

                    no no, please read as much as youcan. for my money, daniel leader's book BREAD ALONE is one of the best. it is at the same time entirely in plain laymen's terms and wholly educational. he of course also includes many many pictures and recipes. please order this book this holiday as a little gift to yourself.

                    1. re: ben61820
                      rainey RE: ben61820 Nov 21, 2006 10:59 PM

                      Yes. A big second for Daniel Lederer. But don't let his obsession with the temperature of things get in your way. He's concerned with standards that make his bread consistent day in and day out as well as excellence. OTOH, his articulation of how important it is to remember and support growers is spot on for every one of us because the day we look around and discover that Archer-Daniels-Midland and Conagra is all that there is is the day we have lost *our* ability to create excellence.

                2. r
                  RMatey RE: kiwijen Jul 12, 2008 04:28 PM

                  A few things....

                  What we are really talking about are called (by some) french folds. The guy who said you are redistributing yeast and food is 100% right. However the fold proccess does a few other things, it equalizes internal and external temperture and tightens the gluten of the bread up. I've tried the recipe with no fold and you get bread, but it is amorphous and doesn't rise well in the oven. I've also tried taking an extra 20 min and just folding every few hours. The later actually seems to be an improvement, you do loose a few of the big bubbles but you get a much stronger crust and a REALLY impressive rise....For me the normal method grows 25-35% in the oven. With extra folds it almost doubles....

                  2 Replies
                  1. re: RMatey
                    smartygirl RE: RMatey Jul 12, 2008 07:39 PM

                    i have a question about this one - i would love to be able to make this fresh for dinner, but i get home at 6:30 and we usually eat at 8:30 - not enough time for the second rise. what would happen if i let it rise 10 hours overnight and then another 10 over the day? it adds up to the same amount of time, approximately...

                    1. re: smartygirl
                      jules127 RE: smartygirl Dec 23, 2009 06:48 AM

                      I am bumping this bc I too want to try to pull off a 2nd longer rise. Can it be done? Mine would be like more like 4 hours instead of 2.

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