333332 Wed Oct 11 19:12:21 -0700 2006 17 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 905205 How to categorize gumbo? Not really a stew, not really a soup. More like a thickened soup/stew, definitely with African or Creole virtues. My question for gumbos is, are the roux-based and gumbo-based mutually exclusive. Is there a file protocol? Sat Dec 06 09:40:52 -0800 2003 0 EHB 1 905223 There are many varieties of gumbo, but every kind uses certain fundamental cooking techniques. First, gumbos all have a roux base, a mixture of butter and flour slowly cooked to a rich brown, which gives gumbo much of its characteristic thick texture and smoky taste. And further, all gumbos are thickened with okra or with file’. In fact, it is the okra that gives gumbo its name – gombo being an African word for okra. File’ is a powder made from dried sassafras leaves originally discovered by the Choctaw Indians Sun Dec 07 09:54:45 -0800 2003 905205 0 Nawlins 2 905224 Those are all very good points. Except, I can point you to numerous "gumbo" recipes in the heart of gumbo country that do not contain roux or file, and even numerous stews that have come to acquire the "gumbo" moniker that don't contain okra. Roux, okra and file have all been employed for their thickening properties, so they can be found in "gumbos" independently as well as in combination. (If Paul Prudhomme can be relied upon as an authority, check "Chef Paul Prudhomme's Louisiana Kitchen" for instance, where, often as not, a roux is not called for where the gumbo contains substantial quantity of okra, and vice versa.) In fact, it is probable if not definite that the original African cooks upon landing here and in the Caribbean did not use a roux in their okra stews, the roux being more of a French or European contribution that would have been passed on to the creoles, or French-African lineage, n'est ce pas? Finally, butter has a very low smoking point. The roux for gumbo more typically is made with vegetable oil or lard to get that very dark brown color so highly prized without an accompanying taste of burnt butter solids. Sun Dec 07 11:35:49 -0800 2003 905223 0 EHB 1 1939332 Speaking of gumbo and DC, I once got in an argument with the waitstaff and manager of the Legal Seafoods that used to be in the lower level of Metro Center. They steadfastly insisted that the mulligatawny that they brought me was in fact a gumbo. It's the only time I've ever had an orange, curry-flavored "gumbo" with lentils in it. It did have lots of seafood instead of chicken, though. It looked like this: http://www.shantiboston.com/appetizers.htm Wed Oct 11 22:10:16 -0700 2006 905205 13136 Loren3 1 1939422 I'd say it's a soup. I have had very soupy gumbos, but none where I would say that the liquid was a gravy, as in a stew. I believe the basic distinction is between file and okra gumbos as mentioned above. Gumbos like Campbell's Chicken Gumbo and Popeye's are definitely soups and I suppose fall into the okra type. I love file gumbo. Gumbo is a traditional New Year's dish among many African-Americans. Wed Oct 11 22:49:31 -0700 2006 905205 13192 chocolatetartguy 1 1939662 I would say that Gumbo is, well, Gumbo. You could probably place it in a category of its own, similar to the way you would classify chowder. In fact, most New Orleans cookbooks place gumbo in a separate chapter, usually with Red Beans and Rice (also in a class of its own). There are no hard and fast rules about gumbo. Regardless of the origin of it's name, gumbo can contain or exclude both okra and file powder. Most gumbos are made with a roux, but few are made without. There are as many gumbo recipes and methods as there are families in South Louisiana. If you want to learn more, do a search here on Gumbo; it's been discussed quite a bit. I'm working on a section of my site for gumbo, but in the meantime, you can also check out GumboPages.com, dedicated to preserving New Orleans culture. I would write more, but I have to go start making my Cajun Pork Jambalaya. -Kevin www.NolaFoodie.com Thu Oct 12 00:25:12 -0700 2006 905205 15382 UptownKevin 1 1940425 Ah, where is Rachel Ray now to call it a stoup?? I guess that would be blasphemy. I did see a gumbo cook off thing on FTV or something like that and one of the judges said there are in fact three ways to thicken a gumbo. Roux, file and okra. A gumbo can contain and combination but must have one of them. DT Thu Oct 12 11:31:48 -0700 2006 905205 11291 Davwud 1 1944618 What seems to get lost in discussions of gumbo and many other creole and cajun dishes is their ad hoc nature. Cajuns in particular were rural people and not wealthy; they made wonderful meals from what was available. No two gumbos or jambalayas were ever quite the same, even from the hand of the same cook. There were some common "rules" and "traditions" that were dictated by what they had however. Seafood was most often used in gumbos that included oka. Game was available in winter when there was no okra so it usually appears in roux-based gumbos. Chicken is used for both okra gumbo and gumbo ya-ya. Gumbo z'herbes is roux-based. Until vegetable oil was commonly available, lard was used to make a roux. Lard was used for the mirepoix in an okra-based gumbo in which a roux was never used. Why would you bother with a roux when the okra would thicken a gumbo? They would never have used scarce, expensive butter which would have also burned in the long process of making a dark gumbo roux. I still use bacon drippings as my grandmothers and aunts did for gumbo. Roy Guste of Antoine's disagrees with this and they use a roux in the restaurant's okra gumbo. But as I said, gumbo is fairly ad hoc - and a good way to start a fight in Bayou Country. File is added only to non-okra gumbo by most people. Some people love it and add it to okra gumbo as well. In no case should it ever be added until the gumbo is removed from the heat or it gets rope-y. It is properly added at the table like salt and pepper. I love the stuff and add it to lots of things besides gumbo. I prefer the concept "traditional" over "authentic" for foods such as gumbo. A good South Louisiana cook knows instinctively what combinations work and doesn't just throw everything into the pot. No, there's no such thing as vegan or vegetarian gumbos because they don't honor the traditions of South Louisiana; those are okra soups. (Gumbo z'herbes is weak with plain vegetable stock, but you could try it.) Same thing if you throw in lobster or other non-indigenous seafoods - might taste great but they're not traditional gumbos. There was always a pot of gumbo everywhere we went when I grew up in Louisiana. Daddy's family settled there in the mid-1700s and he was the youngest of 14 children on a sugar plantation. He moved to New Orleans and married Mama so I had the advantage of the City cooking as well. I had no idea that there was any confusion over gumbo until I moved away from NOLA. Gumbo was just gumbo and everybody knew how to cook it. Fri Oct 13 21:06:53 -0700 2006 905205 32444 MakingSense 2 1944820 That makes sense. Where do you like the gumbo in NO, outside of home? Oddly, in my two visits there, I found favorite po-boys, red beans and rice, etc, but not a favorite gumbo. Fri Oct 13 23:00:12 -0700 2006 1944618 13192 chocolatetartguy 1 1944824 Gumbo Ya-Ya at Commander's Palace. Fri Oct 13 23:03:24 -0700 2006 905205 32444 MakingSense 2 1945139 Thanks. I did go to Commander's, but ordered the Turtle Soup. I ate gumbo at about half a dozen places (Brigtsen's, Praline Connection, the neighborhood place that inspired the tv show "Frank's Place," a joint across from the Marriot Courtyard on St. Charles, Dookie Chase's), but none floated my boat as much as the K-Paul's I had when they visited San Francisco. Sat Oct 14 01:05:34 -0700 2006 1944824 13192 chocolatetartguy 3 1945242 That's probably because Paul Prudhomme is a country boy - from Opelousas, deep in Cajun country. Gumbo is more of the country than the city of New Orleans. But even a city place might have a cook with country roots - like K-Paul's. Since every gumbo is different, you did the right thing to eat it as many times as possible. On your next visit, hit the Bayous and eat some more. Such punishment!!! You have probably already started to see the common threads. Usually two ingredients: chicken + shrimp, duck + sausage, chicken + andouille. Occasionally three. Cajuns were poor so the common thing was one fresh meat or seafood plus a preserved sausage from the last boucherie. A few years before Daddy died I served gumbo with brown rice instead of white which everyone in NOLA has been using. I held my breath but he loved it. He and his brother (who'll be 90 this month) said it was like the rice they had growing up. So that's what I use now. Sat Oct 14 01:51:28 -0700 2006 1945139 32444 MakingSense 2 1945215 A question, oh gumbo expert. We've been having a best local gumbo thread in SF Bay Area and it occurs to me that I've had some gumbos with a thin broth and others with a thicker, almost gravy like broth. Are those diffenent styles, or just simple cooking variations? Sat Oct 14 01:36:50 -0700 2006 1944824 13192 chocolatetartguy 3 1945443 The Best? All a matter of taste. And what you had on hand. There are gumbos thick like stew and thin as well. The roux-based gumbos tend to be thinner. Turkey gumbo is generally very thin because turkey makes such poor stock. Of course, if you have to feed more people, add more liquid, make more rice. Isn't this a lot like cioppino? No two pots are ever quite the same? You never have exactly the same mix of fish. Both started out as fisherman's supper, not a rich man's feast. I can't make cioppino on the Gulf or East Coast because the seafood is different and I don't have quite the touch. Haven't eaten enough of it yet - sadly! Sat Oct 14 04:55:16 -0700 2006 1945215 32444 MakingSense 4 1946270 Gumbo's out here in San Francisco area are sadly lacking. I think the best local one's I've had have been at Black soul food restaurants, of which there are quite a few. They usually have a thin broth, but with some roundness, and they use Dungeness crab. Thanks to CH and Google, I finally identified the two NO restaurants at which I ate in the mid 90's, but whose names escaped me. I had gumbo at both Pearl Oyster Bar and Grill and Chez Helene. I really should go back, but both my trips to NO were on the way back home from Tampa. Recent business trips have been taking me no further east/south than Ohio/Kentucky. Sat Oct 14 21:59:00 -0700 2006 1945443 13192 chocolatetartguy 1 1944865 I am a Gumbo Hound. I've never been to Louisiana, but a New Orleans expat taught me. I use both roux and okra and occasionally Filé (if I have it and only at the table). I was taught that a light brown roux was for making Étouffee and the dark roux was for Gumbo. Tomatoes were only used by the Creoles. Sausage, ham, duck and pork shoulder are commonly found in mine. I make a big bowl of finely diced onions, green peppers, celery and scallions. 1/3 gets added to the hot roux to stop it from burning, 1/3 gets added after all the other spices, meat and stock are in, and the final 1/3 just before the shellfish gets added. I always make lots and put 1/2 away without the shellfish (3 - 4 days in the fridge makes it better) then add prawns, crawfish or crab for the last two minutes on the stove. I serve over long grain white rice with crusty bread. If you are really mad about Cajun food you owe to yourself to order a DVD of "Yum, Yum, Yum!" by Les Blank of Flower Films. http://www.lesblank.com/ Click on the link to "Films" then scroll down to "Yum, Yum, Yum!" It's 30 minutes of exquisite torture and tells you a whole lot about Cajun food. Enjoy! Fri Oct 13 23:23:35 -0700 2006 905205 22115 Da_Cook 2 2102436 A few years back, the Spouse got into a heavy "How to make Gumbo" discussion with the contestants at the Breaux Bridge, LA "Crawfish Festival" etouffee contest. The consensus among the real Cajun "he-men" cooks was, "If that's what tastes good to you, then that's how you make gumbo." How it tastes good to us is a nearly black roux (a red roux is more Cajun, but we like it this way) always file added just at the end a mix of whatever poultry and as close to andouille sausage as we can get no tomatoes, just the Cajun Trinity Gumbo is a pretty relaxed affair. Just pop a beer and have at it. Fri Dec 15 15:34:43 -0800 2006 1944865 25244 rockycat 1 2101057 Sorry to digress, but I'm looking for a gumbo recipe made by a chef who used to head up a Cajun restaurant in Topeka, Ks. Yes, Topeka. Chef Bud had learned to cook on the oil rigs off the Louisiana coast and his gumbo was incredible. It had a thin, rich, salty broth and was chock full of seafood, sausauge, chicken, but very few vegetables. Help? Thu Dec 14 23:46:56 -0800 2006 905205 59849 Gumboseeker