331350 Wed Oct 04 16:56:15 -0700 2006 29 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 1922165 Can anyone tell me what the difference is between cured and uncured bacon? Is one in some way better than the other or is it a matter of taste? The uncured bacon I've had seems to be cut sliced thicker. Is there a reason for that? Wed Oct 04 16:56:15 -0700 2006 31671 BKchompchomp 1 1922230 Bacon is by definition cured. I see that some brands of nitrite-free bacon are being sold as "uncured." The main difference I've noticed is in color. Wed Oct 04 17:14:59 -0700 2006 1922165 11369 Robert Lauriston 1 1922299 Uncured means that the bacon hasn't been cured in the traditional way using sodium nitrate or sodium nitrite to preserve the pork and keep it pink or red. Instead, the uncured versions generally use salt, lactic acid starter culture and celery juice, which is loaded with natural sodium nitrate, to create the distinctive bacon flavor. Wed Oct 04 17:36:03 -0700 2006 1922165 11222 Infomaniac 2 1922492 Right, I'm just saying that's a misuse of the word "uncured." Most of the nitrite-free bacon that I've tried was cured in plain salt and then smoked over hardwood. Looks gray but once it's cooked the difference is pretty subtle. Wed Oct 04 18:17:11 -0700 2006 1922299 11369 Robert Lauriston 3 1922569 I wasn't disagreeing with you, and I agree that the taste difference is subtle. Wed Oct 04 18:33:46 -0700 2006 1922492 11222 Infomaniac 1 1922778 I had thought bacon was always cured, which was part of what was so confusing to me. Is the thought that "uncured" bacon is better for you because of the natural source of sodium nitrate? Wed Oct 04 19:34:23 -0700 2006 1922165 31671 BKchompchomp 2 1922795 I assume so. I've read that the natural source comes from celery, of all things. Wed Oct 04 19:39:27 -0700 2006 1922778 11231 Glencora 3 1922968 The notion is that nitrites are bad so nitrite-free bacon is better. Sodium nitrite's chemical properties aren't dependent on its source. Wed Oct 04 20:33:57 -0700 2006 1922795 11369 Robert Lauriston 1 1923780 Isn't the confusion the FDA requiring non-nitrate/ite bacon to be labeled as uncured? Gotta warn the public somehow that something without enough chemicals might kill 'em.... Thu Oct 05 01:15:06 -0700 2006 1922165 13150 babette feasts 2 1923804 You mean the USDA? I haven't seen it labeled that way, is that a new rule? Thu Oct 05 01:26:04 -0700 2006 1923780 11369 Robert Lauriston 3 1923974 I don't think so. I don't think they're warning people, I think they're reassuring them. I have a Niman Ranch box that says it has no nitrate or nitrite added. Nothing about a USDA warning. And, Robert, I understand that no nitrates ADDED means that some may be naturally occuring in the celery juice listed in the ingredient list and I understand that there may be no difference chemically speaking. But if the naturally occuring stuff isn't better than the artifical then what is the point of changing? There must be some point, right? Thu Oct 05 02:53:48 -0700 2006 1923804 11231 Glencora 4 1924608 Basically the only point is marketing to uneducated consumers who heard back in the late 70's that sodium nitrite was "bad". The level of sodium nitrite used in curing meats is below the FDA recommended level, which you would have to multiply 10,000 times to be dangerous. Way before this time you would die, not from nitrite poisoning, but from dehydration from too much salt. Thu Oct 05 13:54:37 -0700 2006 1923974 10732 JMF 2 1924601 Yes... something without enough chemicals will kill you... in this case the chemicals... Sodium Chloride (table salt) and Sodium Nitrite (just another type of salt)... are absolutely necessary to kill dangerous bacteria. Nitrites used in the quantities needed for curing are not only absolutely harmless, they are in smaller quantities than the body MAKES itself to use in the digestive system to kill bacteria. "Uncured" bacon is still cured with chemicals... sodium chloride, and substances that contain sodium nitite. Thu Oct 05 13:51:29 -0700 2006 1923780 10732 JMF 2 1924693 "Uncured" is indeed required on the front of the packaging on all bacon and coldcut products that do not contain nitrites or nitrates. I don't remember if this is FDA or USDA mandated. What I do know is that the lack of nitrates is compensated for by adding more regular sodium. Some of these uncured products are so salty they make my mouth burn. Thu Oct 05 14:25:26 -0700 2006 1923780 16906 pitterpatter 1 1925117 Thanks for all this information. I'm really surprised. I'm trying to limit salt, so I'll keep all this in mind. Thu Oct 05 16:50:45 -0700 2006 1922165 11231 Glencora 1 4314985 *** This is not accurate! Naturally cured are generally crafted in the old school way , like granpa used to eat, sodium nitrate is not added, it occurs naturally. The most famous naturally cured meat is Prosciutto di Parma... Italians have been making this stuff well before they knew the world was round, much less the existance of sodium nitrate. Google "naturally cured bacon" and check it out. Also: http://www.meatscience.org/pubs/White%20Papers/Natural_Organic_Cured_Meats.htm explains the cured process ...Alton Brown on the food network did have a show that toured a smokehouse that makes naturally cured... time to set the Tivo. Sat Jan 10 18:28:57 -0800 2009 1922165 256048 pastaeater 2 4319251 Naturally cured bacon - what's that - another marketing term? Whaddya mean "it occurs naturally" - like you leave a piece of meat to hang and it cures? Nonsense. You add SALT! AND LOTS OF IT! I certainly hope that people eating prosciutto or serrano or country ham from the deep south don't get the impression from you or Alton that these products are free of the harmful effects of sodium because they're cured "naturally". The worst part is that since salt alone is not enough to kill the anaerobic bacteria, you can get e. bot (botulism) from eating salt-only cured meats. This was more often from raw salumi than ham - but these days it doesn't happen because anybody selling uncooked salumi wouldn't dare NOT use nitrites. Salting is curing. It's the original form of curing. Salt is Sodium Chloride - it inhibits bacteria, although not as well as nitrites. Saltpeter (pottassium nitrate and sodium nitrate) is almost as old as salt. It's been around since at least the middle ages. So it isn't exactly a modern discovery that mankind hasn't thoroughly tested and used for centuries. Calling salt natural and nitrates unnatural is a pretty ridiculous distinction. Nitrites are newer, at least the use of nitrites directly. But this process began over a century ago when German scientists discovered that it was actually the nitrites that were doing the anti-bacterial work and turning the meat pink in the process. The nitrates were turning into nitrites over time. There is, today, after all the research, only a laboratory tie-in (no actual discovered process or event) between the nitrites and nitrosamines and cancer. So you have a choice. Use salt only and take the risk of getting botulism - which has definitely occurred. Or use nitrites and take the risk of getting cancer - which has never occurred or been proven to occur. Naturally cured, my ass... Now - if we want to discuss the flavor advantages of a slow salt only cure, that's a completely different topic. But the health advantages? Wake up and smell something besides Alton's butt! Smokehouse? Smokehouse?!!! Prosciutto and Serrano are NOT SMOKED! You might get the idea that I don't hold Alton in Mt. Olympus stature like many people seem to do. He's at best a rip-off artist with a VCR. Shoulda stuck to making music videos. Uncured bacon. That's salt pork, maybe? I use it all the time for chowder. If it's uncured, it has neither salt nor nitrates/nitrites. Or perhaps it's smoked, but not cured. I would have little use for that as smoke can be overpowering in many recipes that use fatty pork as a base. Mon Jan 12 12:22:53 -0800 2009 4314985 10312 applehome 3 4340519 Applehome may sound a bit excitable, but overall he's right on the money. By definition, to cure is to preserve using common salt. Except for what is preserved by smoke only, which you will not find in a store, "uncured bacon" is an oxymoron (kinda like "uncured lox"). For that matter, so is "natural bacon", unless you know of a pig that comes to the slaughterhouse pre-salted or smoked. I cure meats and make sausage at home, and I do sometimes use nitrates and nitrites. That said, put the risk of botulism in perspective. I checked the CDC website, and the most recent data I could find was 26 cases of food borne botulism in 1999 in the US. Fatality rate is reported to be 5%, which means 1 or 2 deaths. By comparison, there are approximately 40,000 reported cases of salmonellosis and 400 fatalities per year(no breakdown by food borne vs others). Now, I'll admit that it could be that the low rate of botulism is because very few people are eating nitrate free meat, or that the higher rate of salmonellosis is because lots of people are kissing their pet turtles, but my conclusions are 1: don't use nitrates just because you're afraid of getting botulism, 2: if you don't grow your own veggies, cook them, and 3: don't kiss turtles. As for nitrates/nitrites and cancer, it's true that the link has not been proven, but in epidemiology things are seldom proven. It hasn't been proven that smoking causes lung cancer, but the evidence is overwhelming. But for nitrates/nitrites, the evidence is just interesting. It's mostly based, or at least started by comparing the diets and cancer rates in different countries. One study found that Japanese immigrants to the US had high rates of stomach cancer (theoretically associated with nitrates/nitrites in the diet) and low rates of colon cancer (theoretically associated with high fat diets), but subsequent generations had lower rates of stomach, and higher rates of colon cancer. The conclusion was that changes in diet made the difference. The problem is they did not measure each individual's diet, so they really don't know if other factors (dietary or otherwise) besides nitrates and fat might be contributing to the rates of the two cancers. Still, very interesting. I guess with bacon you may be getting the worst of both worlds. But I really like bacon. Mon Jan 19 20:13:33 -0800 2009 4319251 53530 Zeldog 4 4340726 If you cure raw sausages (salami/salumi) without nitrites/nitrates, you are taking a risk. I use pink salt (93.75% salt, 6.25% nitrites), even if I'm going to smoke the sausage at a fairly high temp (cooking it), but certainly if I'm just going to air dry it. The basic cure is 1 lb salt to 1/2 lb sugar to 2 oz of pink salt, so the actual amount of nitrite is significantly diluted even beyond the pink salt packaging before applying to the meat. I've also used insta-cure#2, sodium nitrate for sausages (landjaeger) that are cold smoked and then dried for 2-3 weeks, According to Michael Ruhlman & Brian Polcyn there are about 25 cases of botulism poisoning per year in the US, mostly from home canning. It's probably from the same data you saw. They say, "Botulim has been caused here by canned tuna and garlic stored in olive oil. In Japan, preserved fish is the chief culprit. " I had a friend of mine get trigonosis a couple of decades ago - something that was long since controlled in commercial pork. But he raised and butchered his own pigs, and he didn't follow the rules - there was some contamination. So these things do happen even though they're super rare. But risk management is all about perspective. Anyone that cuts out nitrate/nitrites for fear of cancer, or cuts out home canned goods or home made sausages for fear of botulism, who then crosses streets at busy intersections, or drives a car on public roads, is not being consistent and true to actual statistics. Mon Jan 19 22:24:16 -0800 2009 4340519 10312 applehome 5 4342994 Agreed. I'll be starting batches of pepperoni and soprasetta tomorrow and both will include insta-cure #2. For myself, I like the flavor it adds. But I share with friends, and for that reason I do like the anti-bacterial factor. I hope your friend was lucky enough to only make himself sick and not others. I tell my friends what's in the sausage and they know I won't be offended if they don't want any. You say perspective is the key, I say information. Everyone has a perspective, but if it's not based on information the perspective can be totally lame. I used to flavor olive oil using raw garlic. My perspective was that it was no problem at all. Fortunately, I didn't get seriously ill before I got better information. And you need to consider benefit along with risk. Nobody needs to eat sausage, but we all need to cross the street. I may be 100,000 times more likely to be hit by a car while crossing the street than die from botulism, but as much as I like my block, I don't want to spend my entire life on it. Tue Jan 20 18:17:54 -0800 2009 4340726 53530 Zeldog 1 4316754 Since I'm not likely to eat anything so labelled, I simply take the curmudgeonly attitude that this is another preposterous misnomer of the same sort as "bone-in filet" and "vodka martini". Sun Jan 11 14:58:45 -0800 2009 1922165 11478 Will Owen 1 4317120 A local item is "side pork" aka fresh bacon as the hog provides it. It's sliced thick with skin on and fried crisp. I heard of this on the date of the OP by coincidence from friends who are ordering half a hog cut to order. No salt, no smoke, nothing. Sun Jan 11 17:44:18 -0800 2009 1922165 55318 DockPotato 2 4317272 The principal difficulty with defining bacon as a particular cut of pork, as opposed to defining it by its production process, is that it's not the same cut everywhere. Some places it's belly or side meat, in the UK it's back meat. What we in the US call Canadian bacon is smoked loin; as for the stuff the Canadians actually eat, I don't remember offhand where that's cut from, but I don't think it's side or belly. That "side pork" sounds to me like some of the treatments of belly that have become so popular, as indeed they should. Sun Jan 11 18:38:03 -0800 2009 4317120 11478 Will Owen 3 4320631 I am Canadian and what we call "Canadian bacon" is peameal bacon cuz it's got a peameal coating. I am pretty sure it is back bacon and not cured, but not positive cuz I don't eat the stuff. Much prefer regular bacon. Mon Jan 12 19:34:00 -0800 2009 4317272 251167 billieboy 4 4322708 Honestly, I've only heard "Canadian Bacon" used to distinguish our meat from imported US or Euro bacons. "Peameal" or 'back" bacon is cut from the loin, salt-cured and rolled in corn meal (used to be pea meal) and is not smoked. When I order "bacon" i expect streaky bacon which has been salt, sugar or maple cured and then smoked. I too prefer "bacon" but will never pass on a good "back bacon on a kaiser." Tue Jan 13 12:19:18 -0800 2009 4320631 55318 DockPotato 1 4319488 Used to eat some mighty fine home-cured bacon that used only salt and smoke. However, it did get refrigerated after being cured, so germs weren't a factor. As I recall, the smoking was originally instituted to keep bugs ("skippers") out, and the salt did the actual preserving. By the by, I thought botulism was anaerobic? Mon Jan 12 13:21:54 -0800 2009 1922165 227202 vtnewbie 2 4320130 Botulism is anaerobic - that's what I said (I see no other reference to botulism). In his book Charcuterie, Ruhlman warns, "The warm, anaerobic, protein-rich interior of a sausage is an ideal environment for bacteria that produce the potentially fatal nerve toxin botulism poisoning. Sodium Nitrite,,, prevents these bacteria from growinh." The interior of a solid piece of meat, either bacon or ham or whatever, is much less likely to harbor bacteria, so it's much less of a concern. But it's important to remember that salt alone will not kill these bacteria. Given that bacon comes these days pre-sliced, in vacuum packed packages, is it a risk to eat non-nitrate/nitrited bacon? More so than the risk of getting cancer from nitrosamines converted from the nitrite/nitrates used as preservatives? BTW, refrigeration doesn't kill bugs, it just keeps them from growing. But I'm sure you were safe as long as you cooked it - more to the point, you were eating delicious bacon! Mon Jan 12 16:28:27 -0800 2009 4319488 10312 applehome 3 4322001 You offered the option of using salt only, and getting botulism. Exaggerated a bit for forensic effect, I'm sure. I took umbrage at that, because I forget that most folks are referring to commercial products here, so the pre-sliced aspect caught me by surprise. Commercial products can get pretty germy (unavoidable when dealing with large-scale commodities), so the additional anti-bacterials probably earn their keep in that application. But back to the bacon, oh man yes, it was the good stuff. Since it was hand-sliced it was thick, and if my dad did the cutting it still had the rind on. That was astoundingly good, as it got crisp before the rest of the slice. Also very good to lay a few slices over the top of a pot of baked beans to roast for a few hours. It attained a transcendent state. Tue Jan 13 09:25:30 -0800 2009 4320130 227202 vtnewbie 1 4650389 When searching this topic - comparing my TJ's uncured bacon to the grocery store traditional cured bacon (but this was called NATUAL SMOKED).- it started me questioning the difference between Sodium nitrate & Sodium nitrite. Hopefully this link is useful to you, I thought it was concise & included the (UN)CURE info as well. Their biggest claim was the naturally sodium nitrate in something like celery juice that serves as a developer (creates the bi-product) sodium nitrite... hence the similarities to traditional cured bacon (with sodium nitrite added). The link explains it better... http://www.meatami.com/ht/a/GetDocumentAction/i/44170 Or course you could take this info with a grain of salt (ha!) since it is biased (a bit) - from the American Meat Institute. Sun May 03 12:33:13 -0700 2009 1922165 81896 boomer13 1 4650460 The cancer risk comes from nitrosamines, which are formed by the interaction of nitrites with protein. It doesn't matter if the nitrite comes from celery juice or a commercial curing salt. Here's a good explanation of the chemistry-- http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/f-w00/nitrosamine.html A commercial curing salt is a more controllable material than celery juice, and I like to be sure I'm using the right amount to cure the meat and prevent food poisoning. I wonder if the celery juice used in commercially "uncured" meats is tested for actual nitrite/nitrate content. I'm sure companies like Niman Ranch don't want to run the risk of a botulism outbreak associated with their brand, "Fearless" as their hot dogs might be (and I hasten to add--they're really good hot dogs), so I suspect there is some testing involved, and it's a bit disingenuous to call "naturally cured" products "uncured." Removing any doubts, here is a discussion in a food science textbook about the controlled use of celery juice in the curing of meats-- http://books.google.com/books?id=C-wrQaaXxj0C&pg=PA399&lpg=PA399&dq=celery+juice+nitrite&source=bl&ots=5-r3VWGkBE&sig=540lFStGIyaIe6SCwoaxvCPWMiY&hl=en&ei=D_j9Se2ZJo-EtweBj9SSDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10 Sun May 03 13:00:35 -0700 2009 1922165 198087 David A. Goldfarb