330325 Sat Sep 30 23:28:19 -0700 2006 54 34 Wine 0 1913820 Need your best inexpensive buttery chard suggestions. TIA Sat Sep 30 23:28:19 -0700 2006 11387 nosey 1 1913834 Buttery chardonnay? Some posters here will cry out and insist on having you publicly flogged for asking for that! Anyway, here are some inexpensive ones that I like: Kendall Jackson Vintners Reserve (about $7 - $8) Ch. Ste. Michelle Indian Wells ($8 - $11) Sorry about the witholding of particular vintages - but, so far any vintage is OK with me on a QPR scale. Sat Sep 30 23:37:54 -0700 2006 1913820 10578 RCC 2 1914431 Is that so wrong? I don't like "crisp" chardonnays. Should I be drinking another type of grape in order to get buttery? Sun Oct 01 14:20:52 -0700 2006 1913834 11387 nosey 3 1914548 Drink what ever YOU like. DOn't worry about people pontificating here. If your style is heavily oaked buttery wines try J. Lohr should be about 10.00 Sun Oct 01 15:57:55 -0700 2006 1914431 11445 Winemark 4 1945566 I agree Sat Oct 14 07:38:28 -0700 2006 1914548 41375 sandy_palod 3 1914645 Nothing wrong with it, afaic. Why else would I suggest some of the QPR buttery chardonnay that I drink? Sun Oct 01 17:16:09 -0700 2006 1914431 10578 RCC 1 1914558 I'm with winemark - drink what you want and I think J Lohr Arroyo Seco @ $8 a bottle on sale here in SoCal is the best bargain around & easily compares with Chards in the high teens - $20 price range. I can't think of a single Chard under $15 that I would drink, other than J Lohr - they're all pretty nasty. For even bigger & butterier (?), their Arroyo Vista @ about $16 - 17 is excellent. In the low 20's, keep an eye out for Frank Family - made by one of the Rombauer brothers & a Frank partner - you'll love it! Sun Oct 01 16:05:02 -0700 2006 1913820 10392 torta basilica 1 1914646 I like La Crema (Sonoma County) Sun Oct 01 17:17:08 -0700 2006 1913820 42572 Eat_Nopal 2 1917211 So do I. Mon Oct 02 21:08:13 -0700 2006 1914646 13787 Moka 1 1914676 I hate chardonnay and love the buttery chardonnay from Murphy-Goode. http://www.murphygoodewinery.com/ If you google the name and the word buttery together you'll come up with some reviews attesting to it. Not horriby expensive, if I recall. Sun Oct 01 17:31:48 -0700 2006 1913820 40486 Cinnamon 1 1914704 RCC I was not criticizing you but the torent of people who regularly beat up people for wanting oaky, buttery wines. Sorry for any misunderstanding Sun Oct 01 17:47:28 -0700 2006 1913820 11445 Winemark 1 1914716 It's been a few months since I had this, so don't remember if it was buttery - Bogle Chardonnay. It's about $8.00. But this one was buttery and pretty good - Chateau St. Jean. This summer it was one of their tasting room wines. (Not the expensive Reserve tasting, mind you. So should be reasonably priced I think.) Sun Oct 01 17:53:27 -0700 2006 1913820 16109 sweetTooth 2 1914725 I just found tasting notes that the winery provided and it turns out that it isn't very cheap. The exact name is Durell Vineyard Chardonnay 2003. Price: $25, club member price: $20. And the biggest bummer is that it is available for purchase at the winery only. Sorry! :( I do see a Sonoma County 2004 Chardonnay listed here though - for $14. Cheap enough to try and see if it is buttery? Sun Oct 01 17:59:40 -0700 2006 1914716 16109 sweetTooth 1 1915217 My BIL stopped in to Meridian a few days ago with SIL and a couple of cuzzes in tow, they all raved about the reserve chard, @24 at the winery, iirc. Since we all would rather put that amount toward a decent red (perhaps with the exception of Stony Hill's rendition), no white wine made it to the beach house for tasting. Sun Oct 01 23:17:04 -0700 2006 1913820 18150 PolarBear 1 1915226 ok..don't laugh..but the wine cube from Target (4 bottles for 15 in one box) is good... I love it, and all my wine snobs endulge me by trying it and like it...it's buttery. (well as buttery as you can expect coming from a box) :) Sun Oct 01 23:23:07 -0700 2006 1913820 41793 Blakekitty 1 1915344 I don't think I'm into the oak, but like the buttery. Is it possible? We do like the Meridian, KJ. Love the Bogle Old Vine Zin. The Chateau St. Jean, I love at the local watering hole, but it never tastes the same at home (temp?). We'll try Murpy-Goode. La Crema was good. QPR? I guess I am a novice. Mon Oct 02 00:43:10 -0700 2006 1913820 11387 nosey 2 1990664 HungryMojo is right, malolactic fermentation gives it the buttery taste. Also, I'm not sure if Chardonnay is produced "sur lie" but look for labels that say "sur lie". This production process leaves wines creamier. A terrific butterscotch flavored Chardonnay is made by Pindar in North Fork, Long Island. Look for their Chardonnay Reserve 2001. About $12-$13. Thu Nov 02 05:02:50 -0800 2006 1915344 50550 berishnikoff 1 1915725 I usually choose crisp wine but my favorite buttery Chardonnay is Clos Pegase. It also has a lot of oak though. Hess Collection is also very buttery. Mon Oct 02 06:46:40 -0700 2006 1913820 10591 psfoodgirl 1 1915808 I'm pretty sure what you're looking for is a Chardonnay that has gone through a "secondary malolactic fermentation." This process softens the acidity and supposedly makes the Chard "rounder, richer, and buttery." There's actually a Wikipedia article on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malolactic_fermentation Most Chardonnays that I've seen will indicate on the bottle's back label whether or not it has gone through malolactic fermentation. You could also check the web page of any highly-rated Chardonnay and look for those words. Anyhoo, I tried Columbia Crest Grand Estates Chardonnay about four years ago and I thought it was great and buttery. Note that Columbia Crest sells several different Chardonnays and the one I recommend is called "Grand Estates." Here on the West Coast, it's available everywhere and is often on sale for 7-8 bucks. Here's its web page: http://columbia-crest.com/2003_Grand_Estates_Chardonnay.cfm Mon Oct 02 11:45:10 -0700 2006 1913820 40520 HungryMojo 2 1925822 Yes, this converts malic acid to lactic acid. It's the lactic acid that makes it taste "buttery" or "creamy." Thu Oct 05 20:34:19 -0700 2006 1915808 43893 C. Hamster 1 1917173 The butteriest chardonnay I've ever had is from BuenaVista. Hard to find, but keep the name filed away in case you ever come across it. Mon Oct 02 20:55:25 -0700 2006 1913820 11577 Pei 2 1920080 Trader Joe's carries it... if they don't currently have it at your neighborhood TJ, they will stock it if you ask for it. Tue Oct 03 21:13:50 -0700 2006 1917173 42572 Eat_Nopal 1 1917238 I dont know how inexspenisve his wines are but I would try a central coast chard - like Morgan or Melville (probably in the $15 range)...they are rich and buttery without being too over the top - still maintain some acidity to go withs ome food. I also like Talley which I can get for about $19.00... There always Rombauer... Mon Oct 02 21:15:14 -0700 2006 1913820 21586 JonInLA 2 1920309 As you say,Morgan Chardonnay is rich, but balanced. Their Monterey Chardonnay begins at just under $20 and is very nice. For a splurge,their Rosella's Vineyard Santa Lucia Highlands Chardonnay (OMG, wonderful stuff) is about $35 and their newest Hat Trick Double L vineyard SLH Chardonnay sells from $50-$65, depending on the vintage. Wouldn't mind a sip of that sometime! Tue Oct 03 22:28:17 -0700 2006 1917238 13787 Moka 3 1972991 I was at a wine tasting dinner at the Thorn Hill Inn in NH featuring only Morgan wines. Their representative saud that their wines atr made in steel vats and do not undergo malolactic fermentation. Thu Oct 26 00:13:49 -0700 2006 1920309 48383 pof 4 1990396 Sounds like a nice event, but actually, the three Morgan chardonnays that I mentioned are all barrel fermented and underwent malo-lactic fermentation. It was a pleasure to do a little research on the specifics for you: '03 Monterey Chardonnay: Barrel fermented using 25% new French oak -- did undergo malo-lactic fermentation. '03 Rosella's Vineyard SLH Chardonnay: 100% barrel fermented in 30% new Burgundy barrels using Montrachet yeasts, 6-week malo-lactic fermentation. '03 Hat Trick Double L Chardonnay: 100% barrel fermented using Montrachet yeasts. 6 week malo-lactic. That said, their Metallico Chardonnay is a crisp, leaner style that is cold-tank fermented, then racked to 3 year old barrels. It does not undergo malo-lactic. The pinot gris is also tank fermented, then racked into 3 year old French oak barrels. Sauvignon blanc: 50% of the wine was barrel fermented in Bordeaux barrels, the other half was cold fermented in stainless steel tanks. For more info: http://www.morganwinery.com/index.php Thu Nov 02 02:56:54 -0800 2006 1972991 13787 Moka 1 1919093 For excellent value, I recommend the Wyndham Estate Bin 222 Chardonnay from Australia. A true indulgence would be the Cakebread Cellars Chardonnay from Napa. Tue Oct 03 16:36:30 -0700 2006 1913820 16797 bogie 1 1919915 The Wall Street Joural wine columnists did a piece on "buttery chardonay" a few months ago. If you have access to the online journal, you may be able to find the article and their recommendations. Does "buttery" mean the same thing as "big/vanilla/toast"? I used to enjoy Chard back in '93-'95 and those are descriptions I remember hearing. I don't find many Chards I like anymore. Tue Oct 03 20:32:59 -0700 2006 1913820 10471 danna 2 1920079 Buttery typically comes from malolactic fermentation, as described above. Vanilla/toast usually comes from oak. Those two winemaking processes are almost always used in tandem, so just about any buttery chardonnay will also have some vanilla and toast from oak. Tue Oct 03 21:13:28 -0700 2006 1919915 10343 nja 3 1926460 I wish it was that simple, that malolactic fermentation gives Chardonnay its buttery flavor. Green apples can come from malolactic fermentation, too. A good example is Storrs. They say on their Web site that 70 percent of their wine gets malolactic fermentation. http://www.storrswine.com/Wines.dll/Wine?ID=6 Buy a bottle and taste it. Green apples, yes. Butter, no. Fri Oct 06 01:03:54 -0700 2006 1920079 11117 SteveTimko 4 1926466 Green apple flavors are typically more representative of the Malic acid. Perhpas Stoors starts wtih incredibly acidic grapes and even though 70% of the wine goes through ML it retains a green apple taste. Fri Oct 06 01:06:17 -0700 2006 1926460 11445 Winemark 5 1934104 Malic acid is named for apples; it's from the Latin malum, meaning apple. It's "apple acid". Lactic acid is milk acid, Latin lac = milk, which accounts for the "cream" and "butter" impressions. Tue Oct 10 00:26:33 -0700 2006 1926466 29289 fnarf 6 1934369 Thanks, if it is not apparent I know that. Tue Oct 10 02:17:21 -0700 2006 1934104 11445 Winemark 6 1945466 Lactic acid does feel more creamy than sharper malic acid. But creaminess in texture is often the result of lees stirring (aka battonage) as well, a common practice for certain styles of chardonnay. Lactic acid does not taste like butter. The buttery component comes the diacetyl that is a byproduct of malolactic fermentation. Some strains of ML bacteria produce more diacetyl and others less, and the winemaker will select accordingly depending on the style of wine she is trying to achieve. Sat Oct 14 05:13:53 -0700 2006 1934104 10039 Melanie Wong 5 1945564 If you're more familiar with East Coast fruit, Jim Clendenen of Au Bon Climat once described Calif. Central Coast (which includes the Santa Cruz Mountains) chardonnays as Long Island chard on steroids, referring to the blazing acidity cloaked with ripe, rich golden fruit. Sat Oct 14 07:33:29 -0700 2006 1926466 10039 Melanie Wong 4 1927849 I can't account for the lack of butter aromas you report, though I find it hard to believe that if/when I taste the wine I wouldn't detect the lactic acids from the 70% that has undergone malolactic fermentation. However, the green apples you are getting is from the 30% of the wine that didn't go through malolactic, because in that portion the malic acid (common in green apples) is still present. Perhaps the particular blend by Storrs pushes the apple to the front and makes the lactic hard to detect. A Chardonnay that had no malolactic fermentation (rare in CA, common in Chablis) will be full of green apple aromas. Fri Oct 06 17:34:52 -0700 2006 1926460 10343 nja 5 1928944 How would you account for my spelling errors last evening? Sorry Fri Oct 06 23:37:02 -0700 2006 1927849 11445 Winemark 5 1945479 Bear in mind that Santa Cruz Mountain chardonnay fruit has very high acidity, more than some areas in Burgundy. And even when they're tarted up with all ML, battonage, new oak, the overall balance can still seem pretty shrill when they're young. Sat Oct 14 05:23:18 -0700 2006 1927849 10039 Melanie Wong 4 1945216 Okay, I got the low down on malolactic fermenation. I got to spend almost 3 hours with the Varner brothers. This is what I found out. Chardonnay can undergo full malolactic fermenation and still not have a buttery flavor. The grapes can have a lot of acidity and the malolactic fermentation is used only to reduce the acidity. This is what happens in Burgundy. The typical white Burgundy undergoes malolactic fermenation. Secondarily, malolactic fermentation can be used to change the flavor. It's different from the technique used on acidity. There's a difference in when it starts and stops and what kind of yeast you use. This can also add the buttery flavor. At any rate, all three of the Varner chardonnays go through 100 percent malolactic fermentation. None would be described as being very buttery. Their 2002 Varner Amphitheater fooled a reasonably sophisticated group of tasters who thought it was White Burgundy. It is 100 percent malolactic fermentation. http://dat.erobertparker.com/bboard/showthread.php?t=101752 (I was probably the least talented taster, by the way). http://www.varnerwine.com/ Sat Oct 14 01:36:55 -0700 2006 1926460 11117 SteveTimko 5 1945272 Hmmm. On the whole would you say white burgundy tends more toward buttery than chardonnay, then? (I tend to like white burgundy and dislike chardonnay intensely - except for a couple of the more buttery ones.) Sat Oct 14 02:13:15 -0700 2006 1945216 40486 Cinnamon 6 1946523 White Burgundy is either chardonnay or aligote (okay there's some rare white pinot noir). White Burgundy is absolutely not buttery. Sun Oct 15 01:25:12 -0700 2006 1945272 11117 SteveTimko 7 1946577 Some white Burgundy can be quite buttery. Meursault in particular. Edited to add: Other white grapes permitted in some Burgundy appellations are sauvignon (blanc), pinot blanc, pinot beurot (gris), and sacy. http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/290834 Sun Oct 15 02:12:57 -0700 2006 1946523 10039 Melanie Wong 1 1920724 Ah, a malolactic fan, eh?! I've found Cambria "Katherine's Vineyard" to be consistently buttery, although it's fallen off a little in the past few years. Very common in the Bay Area Safeways. You should be able to get it for about $15-17 Wed Oct 04 01:55:38 -0700 2006 1913820 44724 Sisiutl 1 1923216 When I was in my "buttery" phase, Chateau Ste. Michelle was the butteriest I found. Strong notes of Fiddle Faddle :-). Wed Oct 04 21:47:44 -0700 2006 1913820 17813 Bill on Capitol Hill 2 1945274 heh :) Sat Oct 14 02:13:36 -0700 2006 1923216 40486 Cinnamon 1 1926470 Butterfield Station chard, $4.99 with club card at BevMo. And you can now get the second bottle for 5 cents. Fri Oct 06 01:07:56 -0700 2006 1913820 13957 slacker 1 1929469 Jessie's Grove out of Lodi, California has a Chardonnay that's under $15 that is buttery. I'm not sure about how available it is nationwide. You could try their website: http://www.jgwinery.com/ It's $14.85 ...a big buttery Chardonnay. howefortunate http://www.cheers2wine.com Sat Oct 07 06:48:06 -0700 2006 1913820 11800 howefortunate 1 1930451 Unfortunately, our TJ does not have wine. Maryland laws. Sun Oct 08 00:44:10 -0700 2006 1913820 11387 nosey 1 1930456 Thanks for all of the great suggestions. Sorry if I offended anyone. We do like the Meridian Chard for our everyday. Sun Oct 08 00:45:59 -0700 2006 1913820 11387 nosey 2 1930466 How could you have offended anyone? It is just opinion and a bit of debate. Please continue to drink the wines you like, it matters little what we think or like, just what you like. Sun Oct 08 00:49:22 -0700 2006 1930456 11445 Winemark 1 1947736 I like buttery chardonnay as a cocktail, but some famous wine writer who I can't remember suggests a "crisp" chardonnay is better with most food, especially fish. I agree. Mon Oct 16 00:27:36 -0700 2006 1913820 18860 JimH 2 1947871 Where I understand where the poster is coming from (desiring big buttery wines) I whole heartedly agree with you about wine with food. For me the wine should, instead of being a stand-alone beverage experience, act almost like a condiment for whatever one is eating. Mon Oct 16 01:58:58 -0700 2006 1947736 26180 Chinon00 1 1951051 The "Oxhoft" from the Braunstein winery. I think it's around $15 a bottle. Very good. Tue Oct 17 06:23:38 -0700 2006 1913820 20598 OliveBelle 1 1990402 The 95 Chalone comes to mind.... Thu Nov 02 03:00:30 -0800 2006 1913820 22477 jbyoga 1 2012358 Chardonnay is an extremely VINTAGE-SPECIFIC grape. In poor years all of it is lean and vapid... Check your vintage charts then seek out LUSCIOUS VINTAGES where there's abundant fruit in the wine. Good "Butter" starts with a particularly luscious vintage, IMO. Fri Nov 10 21:17:59 -0800 2006 1913820 42549 Chicago Mike