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Sep 19, 2006 12:32 AM

holy grail for the pizza obsessive

I came across this site via Gothamist food--one man's multi-year quest to recreate an authentic Patsy's pizza at home:

Thousands of words on proper flour, proofing, temperature, etc. I really admire this guy's devotion, and I think anyone who likes making pizza at home can find some useful tips within the exhaustive experimentation contained therein.

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  1. Astounding! Good thing he's on our side. Don't want someone with that kind of tenacity trying to recreate a McDonald's hamburger or a hydrogen bomb.

    1. Wow. I just wish that first picture had a slightly less unsavory background. What is that scum-covered thing by the dish scrubber?

      1. You want obsessive? HERE'S obsessive!

        Learned nearly everything I know about pizza there, including where to mail order some really outstanding ingredients for your pizza.

        1. There's a lot of good info there, but he's a little confused in certain areas. First of all, sourdough isn't a case where the longer your store it, the better it gets. As the dough ages, acetic acid (vinegar) is created. This acid does add to flavor, but... it creates an inhospitable environment for the yeast/impairs leavening AND the acidic enironment prevents browning from occuring. His pizzas are either pale or charred, nothing in between- this is from the acid in the dough. He seems to be going way overboard with the souring aspect. Places like Patsy's may utilize a sourdough mother in their doughs, but I'm sure they retard the dough until they need it rather than retarding it for a specific length of time. This isn't artisan bread we're talking about here. They make the dough (direct method), they toss it in the fridge, and then they use it. That's fairly standard pizzeria protocol.

          He's a bit off base in regards to flour. King Arthur's bread flour is not only the worst tasting bread flour available, it creates incredibly unmanageable doughs. This is probably part of the reason why he can't toss his currect formula. He says he's tried many flours, but from what I can tell, he hasn't tried commercial bread flours. They're a night and day difference. Patsy's isn't using KA flour, believe me.

          The other aspect that he doesn't cover is the thermal mass of the pizza stone. Without a relatively thick stone, a decent Neopolitan pizza is impossible. There's a huge difference between a 800 degree electric oven and an 800 degree brick oven.

          He's also using dry yeast. Pizzerias never use dry yeast- always fresh.

          I would say he presents about 60% of the information necessary for make a Patsy quality pie. Combine this page with another informative site such as this one here:

          along with a little research on thermodynamics, and the aspiring Neopolitan pizza maker should be in good stead.

          2 Replies
          1. re: scott123

            I don't have a ton of time, but since some of this is directed my way I'll tackle it.

            >King Arthur.
            I've used Caputo, KA, Gold Medal, White Lily, Giusto and I'm tell you except for the caputo, I can make a nearly identical pie with these. The caputo is different but excellent. I can tell you that the best bakery in Atlanta is run by a head baker who used to be the head baker at Zabar's in NY. He uses KA. A lot of commercial places use KA. I just made a batch wtih Giusto bread flour and not one person could tell the difference.

            By commercial flours, do you mean bromated flours? Because I'm not adding chemicals to get a certain effect.

            >Can't spin the dough due to low quality flour
            I can't spin my dough because I choose to make a highly hydrated dough with less than full kneading. If you look at the dough I showed windowpaning, which is paper thin, that dough can be spun all day. But that's not what makes the best pie. Spinning is for show.

            "His pizzas are either pale or charred, nothing in between"
            Actually, this is the goal. Look at Da Michelle's pizza at the bottom of my page. That "leopard" charring is the goal of high end neopolitan pizza. It's not about the acid, it's about the temp and the moisture.

            > Thermal Mass
            This is important for running a commercial operation. But the real key is managing the temp differential. Based on the near perfect charring that I get and show in my photos, I don't see how you can say that a decent Neopolitan is impossible.

            >He's also using dry yeast. Pizzerias never use dry yeast- always fresh.
            Same organism and I can point you to several bakers who'll say it makes no difference. When I use it, which is about half the time, I use 1/8 teaspoon for 3-5 pizzas. I'm mostly using a natural starter.

            >Extended aging
            Cold rise is a lot easier to manage. I am going to go over a warm rise technique also but it's difficult to manage if you are outside a commercial environement.

            1. re: JeffV

              Jeff, your reply got past me three and half years ago when you posted it, and, now that I read my post again, I'm a little glad that it did or I might have inserted my foot into my mouth a little farther. I still believe pretty strongly in the inadequacies of KA flour and the importance of thermal mass (and thermal conductivity) in a home oven setup, but... as far as everything else I said, I really had no clue what I was talking about.. I'm currently taking medication for my male answer syndrome and am doing much better :)

              Should our paths cross again, I may disagree with you, but it will be in a more respectful manner. You've earned it.

          2. I don't think he ever said that more time is better, otherwise, sometime in his six years of practicing he probably would have exceeded six days. And he never prescribed an amount of retardation, I think he seemed to advocate just what you suggested, make it and use it when needed.

            What's your justification for saying KA is the worst tasting flour... that's hardly empirical evidence you've provided. He's tried numerous different combos in the six years and even gives the evidence of pizzarias that use anything from medium-low to high gluten. I don't mean sound like I'm flaming here, but you've got to provide some sort of justification before laying out such truisms. Oh, and I hardly think that Patsy educated himself in thermodynamics before making his pie.

            5 Replies
            1. re: amkirkland

              He definitely recommend extended aging.

              "All dough should age 2-3 days in the fridge. I've aged it up to 6 days with good results."

              I highly doubt that Patsy's is aging their dough 3 days.

              I've taste tested KA bread flour against commercial bread flour on many occasions and the difference was night and day. Since so many breadmaking books recommmend KA flour (Reinhart is a huge fan) I refused to trust my own taste buds and kept using it/testing it time and time again. After making crummy pizzas on about 20 different occasions, I finally came to the conclusion that it wasn't me, and that KA bread flour truly is garbage. Period. I switched to commercial bread flour and it's been pure bliss ever since.

              In addition to my own taste buds, I've confered with quite a few other bakers regarding the quality of KA bread flour and, for those familiar with commercial brands, the overwhelming consensus is that the KA flour is vastly inferior. The only people I run across that speak highly of KA flour are the ones that haven't tried any other bread flour, the author of the web page included. At least no where on his page does he mention using a different brand of bread flour. Playing around with different gluten percentages (00, Sir Lancelot, etc.) is useless. Chewy/puffy pizza should be bread flour. A good bread flour.

              Patsy obviously has zero background in thermodynamics. For the home cook wishing to use an electric oven to replicate the effects of a brick oven- that's where knowledge is necessary. For the home cook with their own wood/coal burning oven, little to no thermodynamic knowledge is needed.

              1. re: scott123

                So, who makes a good commercial bread flour and where can you get it?

                1. re: sbp


                  Inquire at your local bakery as to what flours they use. Most bakeries sell bread flour by the pound.

                  1. re: sbp

                    My local Costco has All Trump high gluten flour at about $6.50 for 25 pounds. It's not Caputo 00, but it is bread flour.

                    1. re: yayadave

                      costco is my source for everyday flour. I've been pleased.