French Laundry - Fabulous or Over-rated?

[Love2Eat]

I've heard a lot of reviews about French Laundry, Yountville in Napa Valley - some loved it and some said it was over-rated and overpriced. Have heard that folks flew cross country to try this place out.
Please let me know your thoughts. Would love to give it a try and attempt to make reservation (2 months ahead?) if it's worthwhile. Thanks.

Link: http://www.frenchlaundry.com/tfl/tflo...

[vespaloon]

Fabulous. One of the best dining experiences of my life.

[Anne in SF]

I am probably not in the majority, but I thought the meal I had there was overpriced and the food over-rated. But then I weight the whole experience--having to drive quite a long way to get there and back through some very windy roads, the $200 per person bill (which only included one and a half bottles of wine), not really wanting to go there in the first place, and not knowing my dining companions (except one person). The food made my stomach churn all night (maybe it had too much cream in it for my not very lactose tolerant stomach).

My perspective might be different if I had been dining exclusively with the person of my dreams, we had been chauffered there in a limo with a very smooth ride, and we had been staying in the wine country that day and night (so didn't have to deal with the long drive before and after the meal), and he picked up the tab for the entire meal.

In a lot of countries around the world $200 could feed a family of 5 for a month, easily.

[Gary Soup]

Well put. You've got your felicific calculus down.

[SteveB]

I've been to the French Laundry twice. After the hassle of getting reservations, I went with a bit of a chip on my shoulder. Also,I'm generally a little skeptical of restaurants with such high prices and vaunted reputations. They seldom live up to the hype in my experience. The French Laundry is an exception. The meals were wonderful and the service was excellent, without any trace of snobbery. It's expensive, but an experience to remember. As for the comment on feeding a family of five for a month, you could say the same thing about any expensive restaurant, and most great restaurants tend to be expensive. It that bothers you, don't go to restaurants of this type.

[peg]

...it was pretty easy to foretell where THIS all was headed! :oD

A very interesting thread nonetheless - or perhaps because of the strong opinions. Destination restaurants invariably provoke strong reactions...the attitude about the journey affects the experience hugely, good or bad. I thank you all for your honest responses, both glowing and cranky.

[rcc]

I think I get what you're saying. Or, maybe not.

Allow me to recap -
You equated your bad experience at French Laundry with feeding hungry families around the world.

Do you know that there's a ton of restaurants all over that charges about half that of French Laundry. Then, based on your theory, in other parts of the world, that can easily feed a family of 2 or 3 for a month. If you want to be more granular, then there's a gazillion of restaurants all over the Bay Area that charges a quarter than that of FL. This can easily feed one hungry person for a month.

Nothing wrong with with what you stated.

However, now I seem to sense, that you're just against paid eating establishments.

[Anne in SF]

Actually, no, I am not against paid eating establishments. Lord knows I’ve supported enough of them in my lifetime, heck, enough to last 10 lifetimes.

The OP’s question was whether or not it was overpriced and overrated. In my opinion, Yes. In a lot of other folks’ opinions, no. (Similar questions get asked on other boards that I am on like whether or not All Clad/Viking/whateverblingisinfashion is really worth the money…I always answer…you can get a Timex for $20 at Woolworths, a Casio at REI for $200, or a Rolex for $5,000…they all tell pretty much the same time. With the Timex, you might get one with an alarm; with the Casio you can get it with altimeter, barometer, thermometer, digital compass, dual alarm, and stopwatch; with the Rolex, you pay for a lot more for prestige marketing…maybe…just maybe you might get a few diamonds at the $5K level if you buy it used [but it still won’t have an alarm or dual time].)

For me, part of my dining experience touches on issues of social justice (which is beyond most peoples’ comprehension). I actually DO feel guilty at eating at such “exclusive” places, at $100-200 per head, knowing full well that I AM NOT doing my best to alleviate the suffering of those who can be easily fed for less than that. And my view has evolved over time… at one time I did go to all those upper upscale restaurants, quite regularly in fact. But instead of paying $200 per head, I’d now rather pay $20 and donate the rest to a charity. And it took me a while to get here. I had to visit the world’s poorest slums, and actually talk to the people who live there.

And I have happily dined at Chez Panisse, which serves excellent food while supporting the local small farmers and endorses/supports sustainable agriculture. And I will also happily dine at a place like Delancy Street Restaurant, where the waiters, unlike those at the French Laundry, DO NOT wear Armani ties.

It is not by accident that people go through great lengths just to get reservations at French Laundry, making them think that somehow they’ve made it “in” to a place so “exclusive.” That is specifically by design…why do you think you need to call EXACTLY two months before you want to dine there? Dining at French Laundry made me uncomfortable with the knowledge that the gap between the haves and have nots is getting wider with each passing day, and my part in contributing to it. That is the stuff that revolutions are made of.

I am pretty much done on this topic… obviously there are many folks who have dined there and thought it was “worth” it. And obviously, I am not one of them… But hey, different strokes for different folks, and what a boring place this would be if we all had the same opinion on chow.

And to the person hoping that Thomas is in the house when he/she dines there, you might want to ask when you make reservations as he splits his time with Per Se in NYC.

[Robert Lauriston]

You need to call the FL exactly two months ahead because reservations are snagged as soon as they become available. Chez Panisse is just the same, except they take reservations only one month ahead.

That's one way restaurants can respond to overwhelming popularity. It is not something they can do by design.

[Sixy Beast]

The problem would be less of one, for customers at least, if you could book further ahead, surely?

[Robert Lauriston]

Depdends on the customer, and there are business tradeoffs for the restaurant. But we're well into Not About Food territory.

[sailorbuoys]

actually, no. Imagine if it took two years and there were no discernable date? (like some places in Europe)

[rcc]

"That is the stuff that revolutions are made of."

Good Lord, I just hope that this revolution you speak of doesn't happen during my lifetime. I still have so much positive culinary experience to experience.

Even though, as I proudly declare, I am NOT in favor of paying in dining establishments (hey, I'm always more satisfied if somebody else takes the check), the economic flip side of the restaurant industry supporting agriculture, the wine industry and jobs (can you imagine how many unemployed and starving actors there would be if waitering suddenly disappears) are definitely something that is worth considering.

BTW, I agree, Chez Panisse rocks !

[sailorbuoys]

***Disclaimer: I used to work here--7 years ago***

I wish that you could talk to some of the people who work here, or have worked here, or any people who have worked in Any restaurant for that matter. Not all of us have middle or upper class backgrounds. The food here is unbelievably laborious!! You can not imagine.
(in one bite you can eat hours or days of work here.)

In fact all food, from raw to cooked is laborious. And like any other industry, some choose to be part of the lineage, some support it, and some end up in the process because they come from a background with few discernable "choices". We all have to eat to live.

When I worked here we served all classes of people. The food here is like going to MoMA, eating it is about many layers of ideas, many levels of social justice or not. Paint is dangerous, so is flour, and really hot oil. Why cooks do what they do is even a mystery to them. Many of us make little to no money (ask Ms. Waters how much of her staff is unpaid! then you might re-think your meal there. Or ask the cooks why they work that hard for no pay.)
Delancey street is not a charity. It is a highly "endowed" organization, with little to no paid workers.

Not a single person can eat at ANY restaurant with a completely clear concience. There are so many layers of oppression in this field I can not begin.
And within this insidious structure also lies a beautiful myriad of levels, (spoken & silent), where political/personal connections and guilds are made. between people of differing cultures & classes, genders; between people & the natural & animal world.

This, to me, is the essence of Chowhound. A love for delectible food that dances the fineline of georgeous-obsession. Everyone has to eat. Food turns us on, it makes us feel giddy, it changes our lives, it brings us back to memories we did not know were stored in us. All food, high-end and not. It connects people who were not born speaking the same language, (I was the only person born speaking english in the last kitchen I worked---a kitchen that spoke 4 languages daily); people fight for food, write and paint and dance and make love (for &) after eating delicious food.

When you eat at The French Laundry you are paying for someone's apprenticeship. You are paying the farmer (to follow Ms. Waters' work begun over 25 years ago) to grow her/his very particular crop, the one person cheese-making company, etc. This restaurant, CP and many others produce thousands of cooks, chefs and pastry chefs who have begun businesses that employ the same philosophies that they learned in these kitchens, or take them to uncharted territories of sustainability, community-interaction, 'green' building, intentional sourcing etc. (Have you heard of Nextcourse's work?)

The passion, dedication & unbelievably hard work that goes into this food & restaurant will never be measurable. From the farmers, to the slaughterers, to the dishwashers, to the commis', to the persons managing the room and staff of a landmarked (the building cannot be changed so that it will, by political design, only ever be able to seat over 65 diners) building and grounds.

The food & experience here is unique and extra ordinary. I think that it is really worth it, at least once in a lifetime. The same way it was to see a Degas in person. Or Mummenchantz. Or eat a croissant from Lenotre, coco helado on the streets of nyc, a fig I picked yesterday. All art has a cost. god's & man-made. As does the airplane or priveledge that gives us the passport to talk to people worse off than us.

Art is worthwhile. And there are some masterpieces in TK's restaurant.

[Audrey]

Bravo, very well put!!:)

[vespaloon]

Great reply! Couldn't have put any better.

[julied]

My dining experience took place a bit over 2 years ago. After picking up the phone and calling the minute we were able to in order to get a reservation 2 months ahead, we were offered a 5:30 or 9:30 reservation. Since we had an hour drive and a 4 hour meal planned, we chose 5:30.

The food was very good for the most part. But, we were with another couple who are not big drinkers so we did not spend much on wine. It appeared to us that only those dropping a couple hundered to a few thousand on the wine list were treated well by the waiters.

For the price tag, I expected more from the food and a better attitude from the waiters. They served the food with very little interest or explanation and ran away from our table as fast as they could.

We have not, and most likely, will not ever go back - my thought is over-rated. The food was very good, but not good enough to make up for an overall unpleasent dining experience.

[srr]

Fabulous!! I have been there on more than one occasion and each time the food was creative, beautiful, and delicious. As for the service, it is just what you should expect from a restaurant of this caliber. Gracious, informative, anticipating your needs, but never chatty. It isn't your neighborhood joint afterall.

[Ruth Lafler]

I think when people are paying that much for a meal and have to jump through hoops to even get a reservation, they expect it to be the ultimate dining experience. If for some reason it falls short of that, they believe that the restaurant is over-rated.

No restaurant can be all things to all people. People bring their own attitudes and expectations, people (guests, servers, cooks) have bad days, etc. Even if the food is fabulous, it might not be to your particular taste (or have too much cream for someone who is lactose intolerant).

A restaurant that by its nature creates such high expectations will always be considered over-rated by some people, and that opinion will be legitimate, based on their particular experiences. It's inevitable.

The only way to know for sure whether *you* will have a fabulous experience or believe it to be over-rated is to experience it yourself.

Not very helpful, I know, but I don't think there's a definitive answer, just the same fabulous/over-rated responses you've been getting.

[Morgan]

Very well said.

FWIW, I had the best meal of my life there last year, and will return.

[Absonot]

Bottom line- over-rated or not, FL gives you exceptional food and an experience you simply cannot get anywhere else.

I've had the pleasure of dining there three times in three diverse situations. I mention this only to highlight one of the things that sets French Laundry apart-- the fact that it is a customized experience that focuses on YOU. Great food can be duplicated, but the experience cannot.

1. Lunch outdoors with 6 people in late September. The weather was fantastic, the garden was incredible, and as my first meal there, it was life-altering. Like theatre. The servers would all come out at once, then dramatically place/uncover our courses simultaneously. Of course the food was divine.

2. Dinner upstairs with three friends in early fall. A much more intimate, less celebratory experience. The service was much more "invisible" yet charming and respectful, sohpisticated.

3. Lunch indoors on the ground floor, rainy day in spring with my best gal pal. The service was charming, intimate, and when I asked for salt...they brought out a tray of six different salts from around the world, each presented in a unique cellar evocative of its location. For example, the salt extracted from seaweed from the Sea of Japan was presented in a small bamboo box. I mean really-- it may be over the top, but it's fabulous!

It bums me out when people have a bad experience, because it is indeed expensive and a haul to get there. If you're not "in" to the idea, don't waste your time and money. This is not a place to go just to say you've been. But if you appreciate a fine sensual experience, from the food to the lighting, to the linens, to the stemware...you should definitely go.

[anli]

Four years ago - lunch on Super Bowl Sunday when no California team was playing. Four of us spent 4 leisurely hours and felt pampered and over-sated. Only 2 of us drank a couple of glasses of wine, but our waiter and other servers were solicitous, albeit a bit formal. The experience was first rate. It spoiled me for quite some time though, as I was constantly comparing other meals and service to the FL.

[nja]

I thought it was a worthwhile once-in-a-lifetime-on-my-dime splurge. But having been once, I'd rather have two or three great meals at one of the bay area's great mid-range restaurants rather than go back to FL. If somebody ever offered to treat me to FL, I wouldn't turn down the opportunity to give it another try.

Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/...

[Sallie]

Hi, I'm a DC hound who will be in your neck of the woods in a couple of weeks. We have reservations at the French Laundry for a Friday dinner (yay!), and I was just wondering what the dress is?

In the wicked East, it seems we're always dressed up, but my fiance (who is from Northern Cal.) seems to think that we'll be okay pretty casual.

I know this is somewhat off-topic, but I'll report back when we return from our trip!

Thanks!

[nja]

My girlfriend and I are usually pretty casual, but we're the kind of people (who are a minority around here, I gather) that enjoy and have fun dressing up nicely for dinners like this. So we were in evening dress and suit/tie. A number of other diners were as well, didn't see anyone in tuxedo/black-tie, and I think the bulk were a bit more casual than us: pants and jacket, not necessarily matching, with button-up shirt and no tie. I didn't see any jeans, shorts, t-shirts, or polos.

[Sallie]

Good-o. Seems about my speed.

For what it's worth, I've never seen anyone in a tux at dinner here either, unless they were going to prom. Or the opera. :)

[rich]

have your guy wear a sportscoat (tie or not) he'll feel right at home. rich

[East Point Cook]

Jackets are required for men.

[Robert Lauriston]

Just watching the FL dinner on "A Cook's Tour" (Anthony Bourdain's show on the Food Network) left my stomach queasy. Looked like Keller has taken the idea of a menu degustation to an absurd extreme, a whole meal made of amuse bouches, canapes, and petit fours.

That's pretty much what I heard from friends who ate there. Obviously some people love it.

[Peter]

The appearence of TV cameras makes people go crazy. Thomas Keller is no exception to the rule. He knew this was going to be a show on FoodTV and he went all out and beyond.

[Robert Lauriston]

Most of what Bourdain ate was straight off the menu. You could see big trays of the items in the kitchen.

Most of the reports I've heard about FL have each person at the table getting a different dish for each course, so with extras the standard nine-course meal often includes around 40 dishes. Blech.

[Robert]

The cameras had nothing to do with it.
See site below.

http://chezpim.typepad.com/blogs/

[anti-foodie]

The blogger did mention she went with regulars of French Laundry. They keep track of who dines there and when and give special treatment to them. I've been twice since it reopened and I didn't get any treatment like that. Though the experience was flawless, we just go the usual extras, maybe 3 or 4 amuse-type things?

[Robert]

Yes I agree as they are very well known, but that's my point, so was Bourdain and Ripert.
Which is why they got an extended menu as I don't believe keller give's two hoot's about TV.

Also it is my understanding that now all can order an extended menu.

[Paul H]

"Also it is my understanding that now all can order an extended menu."

The VIP treatment is given to VIPs. It isn't something you can order. It includes 1.5x to 2x more courses, and different items for each diner. The normal tasting menu is nine courses plus 3 or so extras, with the same items for each diner for each course.

[Robert]

Paul H,
I believe you are mistaken !!
Maybe one won't get all the course's that a VIP will,but sense the FL reopened and also Per Se many have been offered an extended menu at $250 a person.
I was offered it at Per Se and I'm far from a VIP.

[Pim]

At Per Se, yes, but not at the French Laundry.

[Robert]

Please see rdaily, July 8th post on other site.

[Pim]

What he had was a regular menu with a few extras thrown in. That happens a lot at TFL, but it's not the extended menu.

[SK]

This is correct. I went with some regulars and we got an elaborately planned and very special meal that was much more than the extended menu. Even the celebrities dining that day didn't get the dishes we did.

[skwid]

At TFL the extended menu for us was $450. However they will not serve it to whomever asks for the menu, you need to request ahead of time, what the TV folks got was not at all usual. If you do want the menu you should ask ahead of time and see if it is available. Usually you will need a table which will turn only once (i.e. 6:30 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. seating). They basically keep feeding you until you say "stop" from what I remember (we had a 7:00 p.m. reservation one time and left about 1:30 a.m.). It was a memorable experience as many of the courses were sublime. I

have been to TFL several times and can say tht not all courses have been stunning but I think this is to be expected.

I tell people that if they are the type who wants to have a course or three and then leave stuffed then TFL is not for them. TFL is a place were you get small bites which leave you wanting more and then more food is delivered. Also the meal can be long so if you can not sit for awhile then don't bother going (you can get out in two hours if you really want to but I figure why rush things).

[wolfe]

Why pick a 5 year old long thread for this post? Isn't there something more current?

[skwid]

That's interesting, it was on the first page for me. This is the second time I've had this happen (other thread was only a year or so old).

[rcc]

An excellent venue to be pampered in the ways of service and culinary experience. Definitely pricey, very pricey.

For what it's worth, it a dining experience that's very hard to forget - for the price and, more so, for the experience.

We were there twice last year and on one occasion took the opportunity to take a tour of the kitchen after our meal. Keller was also gracious enough to introduce come-up and introduce himself. If you decide to go, you may want to ask for a visit to the kitchen.

[Pate']

Your kitchen experience was the antithesis of mine. We where invited back to the kitchen and then Herr Keller snarled and glared at us like we were tap dancing on his mother's grave. After shelling out $600 bucks for dinner (of which only the coffee was truly memorable), waiting an hour to be seated, and having our head waiter disappear half way through dinner, I didn't feel like getting scowled at considering it wasn't my idea to go into the kitchen to begin with.

The French Laundry is past it's prime, living on it's reputation.

[audrey]

I, like you, will be going for the first time. The amazing aspect of this whole experience, is that my friends and I tried four months in advance to get reservations for dinner and were told that they were booked. We even opted to go the month after to get in, still no go. Frustrated and annoyed, we cursed the place up and down, but still could not get it out of our heads that it really has to be an exceptional spread for us not to get in after all this. So, we paid them a vist, all the way from L.A., just to see what we would be missing. Well that just bummed us out after that because, now more than ever, we were determined to come back and have dinner NO MATTER WHAT.

This year we called and they picked up on the second ring (unlike last year when we had to call at least 6 x's to get anyone to answer). Incredibly, they had all of our information in the computer already, and the best part was that they gave us our reservations for SAT. NITE without question. I have to say, I was blown away that they had our information in the computer from last year. It could be that they felt sorry for us, or the fact that if you try once and can't get in then the second time is a shoe-in. There is always the thought that Thomas K. is getting his restaurant in Las Vegas situated and therefor may not even be there; I hope that I am wrong. Nevertheless, my point is that they obviously exude class so I am eager to encounter all that this evening has to offer:)

Ps. I'l keep you posted as well.

[Morgan]

Are you sure they were booked four months in advance? They don't take reservations until exactly two months in advance of the date. I.e., if I called today it would be to try to get reservations for two months from today. I couldn't get them for the day before or the day after. (Unless there was, by miracle, a cancellation, but I believe they have a waiting list.) Maybe they've changed the policy since last year?

In any case, congrats on the reservation, and I hope you have as good a time as I did!

[rcc]

Sometimes it doesn't have to be exactly 2 months in advance to the date.
In May this year, my wife was able to talk to them and reserve a table for 4 in about 3 weeks time. It could be that a table opened up at that time due to a cancellation. Also, granted that it wasn't our first time, they already have our records on file.

[Morgan]

Lucky you!

I also heard that they were no longer going to take reservations from people who went there in person. Does anyone know if this is true? That's how we got the reservation last time--my friend in Napa went over in the morning.

[Paul H]

You heard correct. Phone only.

[Morgan]

Bummer. Thanks for the info.

[Limster]

Ate there last year, found it quite nice. I wouldn't call it overrated, but I would never fly cross country for it and would not care to deal with the difficult reservations. I live in Boston and if I ever had that kind of money to spend again, I'd prefer to head out to France (approximately same or lower airfare and flight time). One could eat as well or better (check out the Intl Board) and score a reservation a few days ahead at some of the finest restaurants there.

[Celia]

One caution -- if you book one of the later table times you will be forced to wait if the previous party chooses to linger. And the waiting area isn't good. The last time I was there we had the last booking of the evening and we, along with two other couples, were kept waiting for well over an hour. We didn't sit down until past 10 pm. If this kind of thing bothers you try to get an earlier seating. I didn't think the food was good enough to put up with this, although my companion disagreed.