31757 Tue Sep 28 22:49:56 -0700 2004 42 1 San Francisco Bay Area 0 139554 Signs of fall and lots of new-to-us dishes on the menu at Incanto the other night: - parmesan brodo (thin broth made by simmering reggiano rinds) with white beans - spicy Sicilian-style lamb tripe - salad of shaved celery root and roasted grapes - cockles in a briny broth with lemon vebena - agnolotti filled with rutabaga and apple Great meal as always. I highly recommend the Le Cupole de Trinoro '01. Tue Sep 28 22:49:56 -0700 2004 0 Robert Lauriston 1 139582 I had the agnolotti the other night. Very delicious; a nice blend of root vegetable and apple flavor with cinnamon and other spices. Would have been a great match with a glass of Alto Adige Gewurtz. Only problem was that the pasta, like most of Incanto's, was a wee bit overcooked and not as al dente as I prefer. I also had the charcuterie platter that included an Italian-made pork loin wrapped in bacon, and house-made mortadella, coppa de testa, and a pork pate. But I found most items quite bland, about the only thing on the plate that was interesting was the fiery hot and tangy house-made mustard. The maccheroni with ground pork and rabe was the only pasta dish that was the right level of al dente for me. The pork and broccoli were great, but somehow the dish just didn't come together; distinct tastes without a cohesiveness. I enjoyed the few bites I got of another pasta with an unusual combination of chantarelles and mint. The braised pork was simply fantastic. Not greasy, pure pork flavor. It was aggresively salted--as are most of Incanto's better dishes--but hadn't yet crossed into the realm of unpleasantly salted. I also enjoyed a few bites of Venetian-style skate with capers, currants, and lemon. This was probably the best cooked skate I've ever had. The outside was crisp and brown and the inside was moist and flaky rather than a bit stringy or slimy like other skate I've had. But the part of the meal that made me stop in my tracks and moan was a dessert: bay leaf panna cotta with black pepper and saba reduction. The slightly sweetened, soft cream had an amazing flavor of resinous herb and piquant pepper. Erika suspected additional ingredients of Indian origins--cardamon or rose water perhaps--but the waiter confirmed that it was only bay and pepper. One of the best dishes I have eaten in a very long time. We also had the cookie plate, but I think all I got of the cookies was small bite of a ganache truffle. They came with an espresso cup full of lemon verbena syrup with whipped cream that was to be sipped like a cappucchino. The other three liked it, but I thought it was too sweet and medicinal tasting. -nick Wed Sep 29 12:07:58 -0700 2004 139554 0 nja 2 139601 Great post. The dessert sounds incredible. I need to get there to try it. Wed Sep 29 13:57:46 -0700 2004 139582 0 ciaogina 2 139602 Incanto hasn't served me pasta that was overcooked to my taste, in fact the thicker ones (like the agnolotti and tagliatelle) are often a little more al dente than I'd cook them at home. I suspect that "pork loin wrapped in bacon" was porchetta, which is wrapped in skin. (In Italy it'd be a whole pig.) The porchetta, head cheese, and mortadella are all relative delicate items, more about the pork and the texture than the seasonings. Wed Sep 29 13:57:50 -0700 2004 139582 0 Robert Lauriston 3 139612 Is porchetta a cured meat (a "cold cut" if you will)? The info I found on google leads me to believe that this was not porchetta. What I had at Incanto was a loin of pork, about 3" in diameter, encircled with a slab of streaky pork belly. The whole thing was cured, sliced thin, and served cold. No skin or casing as far as I could tell. It basically looked like a disk of raw rolled pancetta, but rather than the pancetta spiraling all the way to the center, the pancetta instead formed a circle around a disk of homogeneous pink pork. The waiter said it was imported from Italy and told us the name, but unfortunately I have forgotten. Wed Sep 29 14:45:45 -0700 2004 139602 0 nja 4 139616 Hmmm... Well I just checked their website and the sample menu posted was from the night I was there...and it says porchetta and house-made salumi. So perhaps it was. But I couldn't find anything on the web that described this kind of porchetta. Link: http://incanto.biz/sample_menu.html Wed Sep 29 14:52:05 -0700 2004 139612 0 nja 5 139639 Traditional porchetta is a whole pig. I presume this is a variation they developed for export. Wed Sep 29 16:22:24 -0700 2004 139616 0 Robert Lauriston 4 139762 Here's a photo of imported porchetta - the cold cut kind. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/25211#100839 Image: http://home.earthlink.net/~melainewong/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/porchetta.jpg Thu Sep 30 22:48:07 -0700 2004 139612 0 Melanie Wong 5 139775 That's pretty close, except that the stuff I had contained just one solid, homogeneous piece of pork loin in the center, whereas this photo shows what looks like several pieces of meat cobbled together. Fri Oct 01 12:46:24 -0700 2004 139762 0 nja 6 139777 Also just noticed browning on the outside edge, which I'm guessing is due to smoking. The stuff at Incanto didn't have that brown ring and didn't tasted smoked at all. Fri Oct 01 15:01:59 -0700 2004 139775 0 nja 7 139778 The outside of real porchetta is (since it's a whole pig) crispy brown skin. Makes sense that these little mini-porchette would have the same. Fri Oct 01 15:33:09 -0700 2004 139777 0 Robert Lauriston 2 139605 Am I missing something with this place?! I just ate there on Monday and have to agree about the house-made mortadella, etc. I found it surprsingly bland as well. This was my first meal at Incanto and it was quite disappointing, especially after reading so many raves here. The service was fine, and I like how you can order 1/2 liters of (good!) wine. But the food sounded better than it tasted. The only exception was the Braised pork with red kuri squash- it was indeed divine. But the agnolotti were overcooked and too sweet- not balanced. The tagliatellie with chanterelles was downright bland, although perfectly al dente. The steak was overcooked...and the desserts were less than delicious. The gianduia torte was dry, the watermelon budino sounded exciting and original, but turned out to be distractingly gelatinous. It came with a pickled rind that did NOT help the overall effect of the dish. The strong vinegar was incredibly harsh. Only the cider-poached apple delivered any satisfaction. I live in the neighborhood, so will probably give this place another shot, but in my opinion it's not a good value. I'm bummed. Wed Sep 29 14:09:51 -0700 2004 139582 0 Tuberose 3 139617 Authentic Italian food is not supposed to hit you in the face with explosive flavors. I find Incanto's seasoning to be in line with the level of seasoning you find in Italy--higher on the salt and lower on the garlic, herbs, and other flavors. Most Italian restaurants in the Bay Area have made concessions and have upped the level of seasoning of their food. Olivetto, Incanto, Delfina and A16 are the exception to that. I think that is why they often get mixed reviews. Die hard Italophiles like myself love them, but others find their cuisine bland or not exciting. Fresh pasta should have a different texture than dry pasta, which translates to softer and less al dente. The texture of Incanto's fresh pasta has been quite good and the cooking point about right. I prefer the more supple and silkier fresh pasta at Delfina, but only by a nudge. Italian cakes are drier and less sweet and Incato's gianduia torta follows that rule. The watermelon budino sans the pickled rind was very similar to one I had in Sicily. Again, I think it is a matter of personal taste and not everyone will like the more authentic Italian restaurants. Wed Sep 29 14:53:11 -0700 2004 139605 0 Javier T 4 139621 Here's a discussion point: does authenticity equal quality? I don't think there is something wrong with me for feeling disappointed in a $15 bowl of pasta that has no flavor, authentic or not. I trust my palate and I understand the difference between delicate flavor and no flavor. For example, I recently enjoyed a very subtle pasta dish at Quince: simple threadlike noodles, butter, and sage. It was indescribably sublime. I absolutely did not expect Icanto's food to "hit me in the face with explosive flavors". Rather, I expected the true quality of the ingredients and expertise of preparation to shine through. My remarks only address the fact that this did not happen--for me. Just as my opinions are mine, yours are yours. Bon Appetit! Wed Sep 29 15:33:27 -0700 2004 139617 0 Tuberose 5 139632 Good point, although we should probably discuss it on the Not About Food board. But I agree: "authentic" and "high quality" or "delicious" are not necessarily synonymous. There can certainly be "authentic" dishes that are poorly prepared and/or use substandard ingredients. In fact, since in many regional cuisines dishes are created specifically as a way of using the cheap/poor quality ingredients available, sometimes when it's really "authentic" it's not very good from an objective aesthetic standpoint. Wed Sep 29 16:09:04 -0700 2004 139621 0 Ruth Lafler 5 139640 "Authentic" means different things to different people. I sometimes use it as shorthand for "food prepared in ways similar to what I got used to living in Italy," which Incanto's food does like very few other places around here. Quality's a separate issue, but real Italian food must start with top-quality ingredients. Wed Sep 29 16:29:09 -0700 2004 139621 0 Robert Lauriston 4 139645 Incanto's watermelon budino is pretty much identical to one I had in Sicily, too. The unusual texture comes from the use of the traditional thickener, cornstarch. The watermelon pickle (a nod by the pastry chef's to his southern background) is jarring but it's actually quite nice with the brachetto. Wed Sep 29 16:47:58 -0700 2004 139617 0 Robert Lauriston 4 139706 "Most Italian restaurants in the Bay Area have made concessions and have upped the level of seasoning of their food. Olivetto, Incanto, Delfina and A16 are the exception to that." I don't know which dish at Delfina you refer to. I've always made it a point to squeeze in a dinner when I'm in town and I've never found a bland dish at Delfina - from pasta, the squid on beans (I like theirs better than the bland ones I had in Italy), the tripe (the sauce alone can make a piece of dipped cardboard taste good) and the fish dishes. Wed Sep 29 23:48:37 -0700 2004 139617 0 rcc 5 139726 I think what he meant was spicing up the flavors with more garlic, which many "Italian" restaurants do in response to what many Americans think of as Italian food (what I have experienced in Italy, even in the south where I have spent a lot of time, is not as garlicky as what I have eaten here). It also could mean just adding extra elements to the dish. I find that some dishes Italian restaurants I've been to here tend to have one or two extra things in them whereas in Italy the emphasis is more on letting fewer, top quality ingredients shine. This latter type of cooking is what I've experienced at restaurants like Delfina and A16, which is why some may characterize the food as "bland." Thu Sep 30 13:03:41 -0700 2004 139706 0 farmersdaughter 6 139735 Thank you. That is exactly what I meant. For me, Delfina and A16 are not bland, but some people I know don't like them and complain about the lack of garlic, and lack of color of some dishes. Thu Sep 30 14:22:27 -0700 2004 139726 0 Javier T 7 139740 I stand corrected and actually realized the intent behind the statement immediately after clicking on my "Submit" button. However, I still believe that even with the deliberate usage of less seasonings, I still feel strongly that Delfina's dishes provides that extra oooomph in flavor than other establishments that claim to do the same with less seasoning. That is why I like dining at Delfina - because their dishes exudes the right flavors that I like. Thu Sep 30 15:40:54 -0700 2004 139735 0 rcc 8 139741 The food at Delfina is wonderful, but I don't think of it as an Italian restaurant. Thu Sep 30 15:57:01 -0700 2004 139740 0 Robert Lauriston 9 139745 Hard to disagree with you. Perhaps, then all these Italian-wannabe restaurants mentioned in this thread should really just be branded as "Italian-style" restaurants. Thu Sep 30 16:55:15 -0700 2004 139741 0 rcc 10 139747 There are lots of restaurants I think of as Italian that are nothing like you'd get in Italy. To me, Delfina is more pan-Mediterranean, in the Chez Panisse / Zuni vein. Though I definitely have to do more research to refine that opinion. Thu Sep 30 17:07:10 -0700 2004 139745 0 Robert Lauriston 8 139752 I also love the food at Delfina, but stay with the clearer Tuscan dishes, e.g. the beans with calamari, their fresh pasta specials, their rabbit or wood oven roasted meat specials. I find that the balance of flavors and quality of ingredients also shines through at A16. I like Incanto too, but sometimes, the chef adds an extra ingredient or two when it really isn't necessary. For example, he put some uncooked arugula over an agnolotti in brodo which was not necessary and he served burrata with caramelized onions and pesto whereas A16 just serves it with top quality olive oil and sea salt. Thu Sep 30 17:40:20 -0700 2004 139740 0 Javier T 3 139699 I haven't been a huge fan of Incanto either, though I also live in the neighborhood...however, in my case some of my lack of enthusiasm was generated by service issues (e.g. delays in service, a server who never asked me how anything was, but always instead said: "Isnt the xxx PERFECT?"; bringing and leaving dishes when some (or in one case all) of the party was away from the table, trying to clear too soon, etc. The later aren't big issues, but they have never happened to me, ever, at, say, Bacco, despite it's somewhat lower prices...)..However, what really bugs me is the fact that it is noisier than it should be, (the noise level was actually painful on a recent visit: ringing ears, etc) and the fact that I always feel too crowded when two of us dine: it is a pet peave of mine to have no choice but to hear neighbor's conversations when I pay close to $130, (or more,depending on wine ordered) per couple for dinner. So, I don't find Incanto to be particularly comfortable, but not because of the chairs...for that reason alone (close together two-tops), I'd be more enthusiastic about going there in a group of four then on a date with hubby. Besides, the wine list really is lovely, which perhaps one could take better advantage of with a larger group. As for the Chow: while my enthusiasm for the food has varied, I've only had one truly poor entree: a poultry dish (can't even remember know what type it was; some sort of quail or hen) with skin so rubbery it was difficult to eat. That is just poor preparation: nothing 'authentic' or 'truly Italian' about that...(and in retrospect I really wish I had said something, but I had that waiter who said, "isn't the (whatever type of bird it was) WONDERFUL??? and I just wasn't in the mood to argue that particular night...) However, I also have to say that, having eaten at Oliveto recently (it was my daughter's choice for a special birthday dinner), that I've upgraded my opinion of the food at Incanto: better than I had at Oliveto,at a better price...but I think I will post on that seperately.... Wed Sep 29 21:09:58 -0700 2004 139605 0 susancinsf 4 139703 "... bringing and leaving dishes when some (or in one case all) of the party was away from the table ..." I think that's the second-strangest complaint I've ever heard about a restaurant. Wed Sep 29 22:50:57 -0700 2004 139699 0 Robert Lauriston 5 139713 why is that strange? In one instance, I was dining alone, and the wine was brought to the table and left on it while I was in the Ladies room....I find THAT strange: no opportunity to taste it with the waiter present, and no opportunity to verify in the waiter's presence that it is what I ordered.... another instance, both dishes brought to the table for a party of two while one was again in the ladies room...so the person at the table either has to start eating their main course alone, or sit there and look at both dishes get colder till the companion gets back... I find both examples contrary to good service, and again, fail to understand why you find that to be a strange complaint (though, as I acknowledged in my original post, while it is not a major service flaw, it is a flaw in a restaurant that purports to have professional service, IMO. Thu Sep 30 02:37:06 -0700 2004 139703 0 susancinsf 6 139716 When I was dining at the French Laundry--the most profession service I've ever experienced--I noticed on a few occasions that waiters would emerge from the kitchen with a round of dishes for a table and upon noticing that at least person from the table was absent, return to the kitchen with the dishes. This usually occurred behind the diners in question and likely without them even knowing what was going on. Only after everyone was present did the dishes come out. It's along the same lines as putting an empty plate in front of a diner when others at the table are being served a course but s/he is not. Boy was I confused the first time that happened to me. Anyway, if a waiter brings my food when I'm away it wouldn't bother me. Heck, it makes me happy to return to a table of food so I can dig right in. But it does put me in a slightly awkward position if I'm the one remaining at the table, as I'm not sure if I should begin eating or wait for everyone to return. Completely professional service would deliver the dishes so as not to create any awkwardness among the diners, though I'm not sure this is a level of nuance that I would expect from a restaurant like Incanto. -nick Thu Sep 30 03:26:44 -0700 2004 139713 0 nja 7 139764 Please continue this tangent on Not About Food, let's keep the focus of this thread on the food at Incanto. Not About Food is the place to discuss restaurant practices or service in general. Thanks. Thu Sep 30 23:08:33 -0700 2004 139716 2 The Chowhound Team 6 139731 It was the notion of the whole party being absent that seemed strange to me. I saw that at the original Valencia St. Slanted Door once. A well-known rock musician and his pals all got up and left. The bussers cleared the table and the host was about to seat another party when they came back. Thu Sep 30 13:50:13 -0700 2004 139713 0 Robert Lauriston 5 139714 In puzzling further about why you would find my complaint to be strange, it occured to me that perhaps you read my post literally to mean that I had a problem with dishes (ie the butter dish or whatever) being placed on the table when I wasn't there. Just to clarify: by "dishes" I meant "courses" or in one case "Wine" (ok, it isn't a course, but it is an integral part of the meal :-))....not literally "dishes", if that lessons any confusion.... Thu Sep 30 02:44:45 -0700 2004 139703 0 susancinsf 2 139757 Thanks for this posting! We had the bay leaf panna cotta last night and it is indeed manna from heaven! The flatiron steak with eggplant was also exceptional. But, it was the panna cotta that elevated the evening for me! Thu Sep 30 18:51:14 -0700 2004 139582 0 Cynthia 1 139597 How much for the Le Cupole? Wed Sep 29 13:53:10 -0700 2004 139554 0 East Point Cook 2 139607 The 2001 Trinoro Le Cupole was $69 (2.3 times retail, not that there's any left). Wed Sep 29 14:13:53 -0700 2004 139597 0 Robert Lauriston 3 139609 Is there a corking fee at Incanto? Wed Sep 29 14:27:52 -0700 2004 139607 0 East Point Cook 4 139638 I'm sure they charge corkage, but the wine list has so many hard-to-find items I'll probably never have occasion to ask. They have something like 30 wines by the taste or glass plus a fat list of bottles. Wed Sep 29 16:21:15 -0700 2004 139609 0 Robert Lauriston 1 139647 I tried Incanto for the first time last week and ordered the cockles with lemon verbena. I didn't like the dish at first but it really grew on me after a few minutes, and by the end I loved it. The flavors were so different that it took a few bites for my palate to calibrate. My only complaint was they did seem to skimp a bit on the cockles. Wed Sep 29 17:02:41 -0700 2004 139554 0 MikeW 2 139649 We got a pretty big pile of cockles for an appetizer portion. Maybe they're fine-tuning the portion. Wed Sep 29 17:14:32 -0700 2004 139647 0 Robert Lauriston 3 139653 Maybe. The size of the pork and skate wing entrees made up for it. You seem to eat there often. Is it just me or are the chairs incredibly unfomfortable? My wife and I both had backaches by the end of the meal, and that never seems to happen anywhere else. Wed Sep 29 17:22:10 -0700 2004 139649 0 MikeW 4 139659 I once ate at one of the high two-tops in the bar. That was uncomfortable, primarily because the foot rests under the chairs were at an awkward height. But I've never been uncomfortable in the main dining room. Wed Sep 29 17:43:41 -0700 2004 139653 0 nja 4 139666 I've always been comfortable at Incanto, never thought about the chairs except I find the seats at the bar very comfortable. I don't think we've ever sat at one of those high two-tops by the bar. Wed Sep 29 18:09:03 -0700 2004 139653 0 Robert Lauriston 1 139833 We finally made it to Incanto, and it's the most Italian-from-Italy type restaurant I've been to around here (not that I've tried them all!). The Sicilian-style lamb tripe was especially magnificent, but all of the appetizers, pastas, and main courses we had were wonderful, including the flatiron steak and the handkerchief pasta with pork ragu. Desserts didn't do as much for me, but that too is just like Italy! As I had heard, the wine list and service were just wonderful. We wanted to try something from Southern Italy and wound up with the Cottanera L'Ardenza 2000 from Etna in Sicily. It's a Refosco (Mondeuse) which one usually finds in Friuli, so the high-altitude Sicilian version was both unusual and most delicious, making a great match with our different dishes. Mr. Villoni is a San Francisco treasure. We shall return! Tue Oct 12 02:49:11 -0700 2004 139554 0 mdg