303097 Fri Apr 14 13:48:22 -0700 2006 34 29 Not About Food 0 1702018 Warning - this is a bit of a rant: Over on the LA board, someone was complaining that all of the kitchen staff at some Indian restaurant was Hispanic. Somehow this distracted from his or her dining experience. And in the past, some people have complained about Mexican workers making dumplings at a Chinese restaurant. Why does this matter? Does the person cooking the food infuse some special flavor or soul into a dish because of his ethnicity? As Anthony Bourdain has said in one of his books, more than half of the restaurant cooks are Mexican and some of them do a great job. Some of these guys are working even at really high end places. The restaurant business is about the mass production of food (unless you're talking about a handful of restaurants like Masa or Urasawa). Whoever is creating your dish, whether fancy or not, is just trying to get that thing out as fast as possible without sacrificing quality and juggling a whole bunch of other dishes too. Nothing romantic going on here. As long as the workers are being properly supervised and directed, it shouldn't matter whether your chef is Mexican or not. I will allow, however, there is probably some correlation between quality and the ethnicity of the ownership/management. For example, a Chinese-owned/supervised Chinese restaurant will probably be better than an Italian-owned Chinese restaurant. Fri Apr 14 13:48:22 -0700 2006 0 bruthafez 1 1702025 I think Bourdain specifically called out Salvadorian workers. While your point is well taken, there is a danger of falling into exactly the same trap using "Mexican" to mean anyone who looks a certain way. I don't know of any Italian-owned chinese, but Chinese-owned Italian is, in my experience, pretty great for that pre- Big Night italian style of soft noodles, red sauce, and meatballs. Suppose the chef could program a machine to completely prepare a dish, from raw materials to plate. Would that make a difference? Fri Apr 14 17:14:48 -0700 2006 1702018 0 Attaturk 2 1702071 I think Bourdain specifically called out Salvadorian workers. While your point is well taken, there is a danger of falling into exactly the same trap using "Mexican" to mean anyone who looks a certain way. Kitchen Confidential, page 56 "Most of the Ecuadorians and Mexicans I hire from a large pool - a sort of a farm team of associated and often related former dishwashers - are very well-paid professionals, much sought after by other chefs." Sun Apr 16 21:07:51 -0700 2006 1702025 0 Jen 1 1702026 I'd agree that what matters more is the clientele, as long as we're saying that there's a minimum level of experience with the staff in question. If the clientele knows the food and demands the best, the chef(s) will present the best. If the customers aren't as picky, the chefs will never get better than they need to be. They will provide adequate food - but without the true background and understanding of a particular cuisine, they will never present new, unique or specifically authentic dishes. If that's all that's required, any old line cook will do. This is the case with sushi. The best sushiyas are the ones that apprenticed for years in Tokyo Izakayas, learning all the secrets of the masters and dealing with demanding salarymen clientele. They don't have to be Japanese, but they are, because Japanese restaurants in Japan pretty much only bring in Japanese to be apprentices (there are some gaijin menial workers). A non-Japanese person could work under a master in the US, but if he went to open a place of his own, he would have a hard time getting the knowledgable Japanese clientele. Inevitably, his skills would suffer, and he could not afford to maintain the special ingredients that really make a difference at the top of the sushi food chain. Of course, he could open up a burb sushi place or serve sushi in a Chinese restaurant, and most Americans wouldn't know the difference (whether he was Japanese, Chinese, or whatever...). To one degree or another, this will probably apply to any ethnic or specialized food. The best of the best will always be made by the people who grew up with, learned, apprenticed, and experienced that specific food. It's certainly possible to become that level of expert as a foreigner (eg, Rick Bayless with Mexican), but it's rare, and it takes many, many years. I wonder how many Mexican line cooks Thomas Keller uses in the French Laundry - I bet the majority of his assistants are more likely Cordon Bleu grads. But if you're looking at middle tier food - mass produced, as you say, either chains or places that have the same well-tried and tested menu year after year, where the clientele have expectations of adequate but not necessarily exemplary food, I certainly agree that a competent cook of whatever background could learn to turn out mass quantities. Fri Apr 14 17:30:48 -0700 2006 1702018 0 applehome 2 1702081 I'm going to respectfully disagree. It's a great theory but I'm not sure it holds water. "If the clientele knows the food and demands the best, the chef(s) will present the best. If the customers aren't as picky, the chefs will never get better than they need to be. They will provide adequate food - but without the true background and understanding of a particular cuisine, they will never present new, unique or specifically authentic dishes. If that's all that's required, any old line cook will do. " If this were the case then why are there high-end restaurants that get by on name only with really mediocre food? High-end clients that go and newspapers that gives stars and would say they expect nothing but the best and would never in a million years believe they were getting anything but the very best food: and yet the chef produces so-so food. Chefs get lazy at every level. And yet the dinky mexican restaurant in my old neighborhood with dirty floors and completely dive-y experience where no one expects much of anything has the best mexican food around? I think it's interesting that you bring up the French Laundry: while I have no idea who Keller hires as his line cooks, would anyone say he is not capable of exquisite french cooking because of his ethnicity? Or what about Julia Child? Or does the need to spend one's life learning an ethnic cuisine only apply to the more 'exotic' like Japanese or Chinese? I just recently read where Keller's Chef de Cuisine at Per Se was speaking of spending a bit of time abroad in France training (he mainly learned from Keller) and he said "The skies did not open up. They chop chives just like we do". "A non-Japanese person could work under a master in the US, but if he went to open a place of his own, he would have a hard time getting the knowledgable Japanese clientele. Inevitably, his skills would suffer, and he could not afford to maintain the special ingredients that really make a difference at the top of the sushi food chain. Of course, he could open up a burb sushi place or serve sushi in a Chinese restaurant, and most Americans wouldn't know the difference (whether he was Japanese, Chinese, or whatever...). To one degree or another, this will probably apply to any ethnic or specialized food. The best of the best will always be made by the people who grew up with, learned, apprenticed, and experienced that specific food. It's certainly possible to become that level of expert as a foreigner (eg, Rick Bayless with Mexican), but it's rare, and it takes many, many years." I really think that is vast oversimplification. One's skills are only honed based on others' expectations? A chef isn't great unless his clients expect greatness? That makes every chef a slacker - a person that can only be pushed and never self-started. What about the chefs that work in tiny places in the middle of nowhere and serve the best X around (even if his clients are ignorant of what the best X tastes like) simply because that chef strives to be the very best they can at their craft? I would venture to say it's more than possible to be excellent at a cuisine that you did not sup since birth, but common among chefs. Would we ever say that the Iron Chefs were less capable of French or Italian because they are Asian? I certainly wouldn't it. The best Filipino food I've had was made by an Italian. The best southern BBQ was made by Asians. The best Italian was made by a white guy with a kitchen full of latinos. For me it always comes back to: is the food delicious? If it is, I don't care who made it or where they were trained. Mon Apr 17 09:48:52 -0700 2006 1702026 0 krissywats 3 1702093 "A chef isn't great unless his clients expect greatness? That makes every chef a slacker - a person that can only be pushed and never self-started. What about the chefs that work in tiny places in the middle of nowhere and serve the best X around (even if his clients are ignorant of what the best X tastes like) simply because that chef strives to be the very best they can at their craft?" But this ignores what I said about ingredients - perhaps it's just the Japanese kaiseki roryu that I'm thinking of but without client demand there simply is no economically justifiable way to buy specialized ingredients. You can't charge what the ingredients cost if people aren't interested. I imagine it's true for other cuisines. Why would any place pay $50/lb for foie gras if their clientele never wanted it? Many (most) chefs will stay at a place or keep a place going even if they cannot produce the world's best meal every night. That doesn't make him/her a slacker - just normal and practical - none of us absolutely have to have the most challenging job every day to show up to work. Everybody does the best they can under the circumstances in which they find themselves. But that wasn't the question. It was what chefs make the best ethnic or specialized cuisines, and the answer is that in general, with truly exceptional exceptions, people of a particular ethnicity or who grew up with that food, make the best. The depth of learning a particular cuisine, to understand it's base ingredients, influences, etcetc... demands immersion and virtual assimilation. Of course, it's possible to learn. But the BEST? I have this thought when I read a lot of Chowhound posts - it's snobish, but I know we all think some of this, as it comes out in some posts. Sometimes people don't know the best. When people rave of sushi, I wonder what they've had, what they're comparing it to. If they say a tempura is the best, have they eaten at the places in Tokyo that charge hundreds of dollars per plate and have a special oil that they use only once? Was your best ever southern bbq made by Asians made in North or South Carolina? Memphis perhaps? Kansas City? I think that it's downright presumptious to think that the best of a cuisine can be learned in anything less than not just one lifetime, but through generations of loving and caring and understanding. Going back to the issue of client demand, the point is that nowhere else, except in Japan and in enclaves where Japanese (rich Japanese, or salarymen on expense accounts) live and work do you have such ridiculous levels of excess as a tempura place that throws away their oil after each customer. Nobody else would demand it or appreciate it. When we talk of lesser foods and places - not just the best of the best, but say of the latino line cooks at Les Halles or some other wonderful place (but not necessarily the best) - of course a skilled, qualified line cook is going to turn out plate after plate of expert onglet or pomme frittes or frisee. But is he going to be as qualified to set the menu, to be challenged in substituting something that is going to be as "authentic", to react to changes in the manner that a Parisian who grew up eating at or working in a bistro in Paris would? The best Italian I had was in the North End in Boston, and they weren't talking Spanish in the kitchen. The best and most inventive omakase - some sashimi, some sushi, some kaiseki - were in Izakaya's in NYC and we weren't speaking Chinese or Korean. The best chacroute I had was in Strassbourg, and the best schnitzels were in a Rathaus in Sprollenhaus, in the Black Forest, where I lived for 3 years. French, and German were the languages spoken, respectively. For me it always comes back to the food - but my analytical mind isn't satisfied with "it's delicious". I want to learn what makes it delicious. How can I have this again? Where would I most likely go to encounter this again? My own travels around the world have long since convinced me that I wasn't born with a universal deliciousness detecting palate - I've had to learn to distinguish flavors and smells - I'm more than happy to meat the chef and the local cuisines of the world more than halfway. If something doesn't immediately fit my notions of deliciousness, I'm happy to learn why others perceive the same smells and flavors I do, but interpret them in different ways. Growing in Food is about experiencing and learning. Why would anyone discount the value of the experience gained from growing up in a particular culture or with a specific cuisine? Mon Apr 17 13:28:50 -0700 2006 1702081 0 applehome 4 1702100 "Growing in Food is about experiencing and learning. Why would anyone discount the value of the experience gained from growing up in a particular culture or with a specific cuisine?" I certainly wouldn't. Nor would I discount it to the exclusion of all others except a few I deem rare exceptions. I grew up in the south. That best BBQ was in Boston. Having lived in Boston and been to many restaurants in the North End - are you SURE that the kitchen staff wasn't latino? Not the chefs, but the staff?? Thomas Keller has trained many French chefs that are running his places around the country. Are they less than the best? What about Julia - she wasn't french and many of those she taught weren't french .... And if only those that grow up with the richness of the culture really understand the cuisine and it cannot be taught (with rare exceptions) then perhaps only an Italian can really appreciate the taste - perhaps we have no right eating other cuisines at all!!! We cannot possible understand the culture - I should go back to potatoes and sausage IMMEDIATELY. My point wasn't that cultural background cannot bring a richness to the artist....my point was that it doesn't exclude MANY others from the art form, not just a rare few. Mon Apr 17 15:02:18 -0700 2006 1702093 0 krissywats 5 1702117 ooh ooh... great q by Asians (or anyone else) in Boston? Where? (No disparaging or ironic remark here - I'm just honestly interested in any good q.) Tue Apr 18 00:59:16 -0700 2006 1702100 0 applehome 5 3427774 "I grew up in the south. That best BBQ was in Boston." Where did you grow up? I agree with the point that one doesn't have to be of an area to master its cuisine...but I find that one a little hard to swallow. Sat Feb 23 13:32:43 -0800 2008 1702100 67610 Suzy Q 1 1702034 My high school principle use to say "I don't care if your white, black, blue or purple..." Likewise I just want well prepared food. Frankly I could not even venture who has cooked my meal over the years. That being said, I have an annual ritual of the Carnegie deli for my Pastrami fix (getting too old for the Woody Allen combo). Over the years I became accustomed to the "Catskill borscht Belt Humor" thrown at me by the waiters (yes, I just finished my Sedar). Recently the old Jewish guys have migrated to middle aged Asians. The ambiance is definitely different. Likewise if I am in a Chinese restaurant and was subjected to the Catskill humor it would change the experience (notice I do not use the word better or worse, just change). Fri Apr 14 21:11:05 -0700 2006 1702018 0 ncchowdog 2 1702037 Speaking of pastrami, you might want to take a look at my old post below. When my parents lived in East Los Angeles in the '40s, according to my father, the cooks at Canter's, the venerable Jewish deli were nearly all Chinese. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/189901#1014710 Fri Apr 14 23:22:28 -0700 2006 1702034 0 Melanie Wong 3 1702039 I noticed the other day that one of the better Mexican spots in Madrid has a Chinese workers in the kitchen. Most food is a sort of oral tradition (in more ways than one) passed from one generation to the next. Restaurants can be like big families and I don't see any reason that people from different cultures can't exchange this information. Sat Apr 15 05:36:10 -0700 2006 1702037 0 butterfly 3 1702042 Mazel Tov. I love the idea that people cook food from different ethnic backgrounds. I love cooking as many ethnic cuisines I can find and love the flavors all cultures have brought to my palate. My point is that I couldn't care less about the background of the chef and staff, but the front of the restaurant is more Broadway than the kitchen. It's like going to see Miss Saigon and a tall blonde is playing Kim, or Fiddler on the Roof without a cast of beards. May be different and cool but definitely changes the experience. Sat Apr 15 10:11:11 -0700 2006 1702037 0 ncchowdog 4 1702096 But if all you're going for is what you perceive to be looks, do you care that Miss Saigon is actually Mongolian, or just that she appears Asian? Does it matter that the geisha's in Spielberg's latest were Chinese? Did Spielberg cast any goyim as factory workers in Schindler? I remember going to a throw-the-spatula around tepanyaki place in Atlanta in the early 70's, turning to the waitress and speaking in Japanese - and her being awfully embarassed that she was Thai. That was my first such incident, but these days I'm totally used to going to all kinds of Japanese places and finding out that they're anything but Japanese. Does that affect the food? No - the FOH is the least important. The BOH, on the other hand, has got to have the chops. Hey Natalie Wood did a pretty durn good Maria, but thank goodness for Chita! Mon Apr 17 13:44:52 -0700 2006 1702042 0 applehome 5 1702110 This is beyond the food... My very first post on CH years ago was against equating authenticity (of food) with ethnicity (of the cook). But in terms of movies, does it bug me that a geisha is played by the rather Chinese-looking Ziyi Zhang? Yeah, actually it does. That movie is supposed to be a tableau vivant of (an American's romantic portrayal of) Japanese culture, and the lead is Chinese. It's like saying that since all those Asians look the same, it doesn't really matter. But that has nothing to do with food. Mon Apr 17 18:54:34 -0700 2006 1702096 0 Sir Gawain 6 1702115 But how far will you go down this line? What kind of person should play Jesus in movie? How about Christopher Columbus? By an Genoese (supposedly)? And Napoleon? A Corsican only? Let's just forget that it's called acting and that little bit about suspending disbelief. You know. People talk about authenticity as if it were the gold measure. It isn't. Two taquerias in Mexico City, both equally authentic. One is terrible and one is supreme. I'm not going to presume that the cook for the better taqueria is more Mexican--or at all. And that laughable notion that a ethnic place must be good if you don't see any "white" people in it. Trust me. Most people in this planet don't know good food and don't care about good food. It's a safer bet the place is just cheap and conveniently in the nabe. Mon Apr 17 23:20:26 -0700 2006 1702110 0 mod'ern 7 1702122 "And that laughable notion that a ethnic place must be good if you don't see any "white" people in it. Trust me. Most people in this planet don't know good food and don't care about good food. It's a safer bet the place is just cheap and conveniently in the nabe." Reminds me of all those places in NYC serving Indian food to cab drivers. Cheap, cafeteria style stuff sold dirt cheap. Completely ordinary but touted all the time as being great. Tue Apr 18 09:13:33 -0700 2006 1702115 0 Bob Martinez 7 1702136 To answer your question, I'd say I would not go very far in this line. :-D But Ziyi Zhang just looks so un-Japanese to me that I would be willing to suspend disbelief only if she was a great acress, which in my opinion she is not. Unlike, say, Michelle Yeoh or Maggie Cheung, neither of whom are young enough for the role (and then they probably wouldn't want it either.) Tue Apr 18 14:39:28 -0700 2006 1702115 0 Sir Gawain 3 1702048 The NY TImes had an article about this phenomenon last year... if you eat pizza, the chef might be from Tibet. Link below. Link: http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:D_IHNNtEtjUJ:forum.skyscraperpage.com/printthread.php%3Fs%3D1c5f459fe2dd4930b54e7310ea34fcf6%26threadid%3D83182%26perpage%3D26+%22New+York+City+that+classic+ethnic+foods+and+drinks+%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=10&ie=UTF-8 Sat Apr 15 12:27:06 -0700 2006 1702037 0 Brian S 1 1702050 Some New York top chefs, including Bourdain, as I recall, would rather hire Mexicans and Ecuadorians than CIA grads. Why? Well, that CIA grad is probably going to devise ways of "improving" your dish, whereas the Mexican will, even if he knows ways of improving the dish, which he well might, prepare it exactly as the boss tells him to. Whenever I see Mexicans working at an Italian restaurant, I tell the owner, talk to these guys, they might give you good ideas. If you throw a few chipotles in your red sauce, it will be better than pancetta. I once caused an explosion of joy at Lombardi's pizzeria by telling the guys working the oven, there would be no pizza, if not for Mexico (and tomatoes). Sat Apr 15 12:43:17 -0700 2006 1702018 0 Brian S. 1 1702057 This rant is directed to all readers, not anyone specific. I'd love to know how a patron can tell by looking, that the staff is Mexican, and not Chilean, Peruvean, Bolivian, Ecuadorian, El Salvadorean, Guatemalan, American, Portuguese, etc. Anyone who presumes that they can tell where someone is from by looking is ignorant. Also, do they not allow Mexican's into the Cordon Bleu Academie? Sat Apr 15 18:03:11 -0700 2006 1702018 0 kiwi 1 1702059 There was an interesting article in the LA Times a while back about a Latino guy who was very seriously training as a sushi chef. Now, nobody is less likely to believe that a non-Japanese can do this properly than a traditional Japanese sushi master, but this fellow was progressing steadily in his craft, and his tutors/superiors were giving him more and more responsibility and acknowledging his abilities. Here in LA, though, we're SO used to almost all of our food of any kind, except usually Asian, being prepared by folks from any number of Latin American backgrounds. Fine by me. Sat Apr 15 18:49:27 -0700 2006 1702018 0 Will Owen 1 1702061 It shouldn't matter, but in my experience milkshakes made in a coffeeshop run by Greeks are consistently better than those made in a coffeeshop run by Italians. It's a mystery. Sat Apr 15 23:05:42 -0700 2006 1702018 0 Fida 1 1702073 In theory it shouldn't matter one bit. But..... I have found that really great pizza is made only by Italians. Certainly in NY that is the case. A few days ago we had extraordinary pizza baked in a wood fire oven in Bensonhurst. Made con amore and it shows! Mon Apr 17 06:00:58 -0700 2006 1702018 0 Fleur 2 1702106 Are you sure the pizza was made by Italians? Could you look into the kitchen and see who was behind to counter? Same question goes to the Greek diner guy, did you see who made your milkshake? Mon Apr 17 16:57:40 -0700 2006 1702073 0 welle 3 1702158 Yes, I am sure. Our local pizza place is Italian owned and run. The two brothers have had the place for over 40 years, and one of them is always there. There is a difference when the other people make it. Since pizza is something made out in the open, it is fairly easy to tell. We also drive 40 minutes into Bensonhurst,Brooklyn, an Italian neighborhood. The pizza is made by Italians. Con amore! Wed Apr 19 00:20:50 -0700 2006 1702106 0 Fleur 1 1702077 As long as my meal is good, I could give a rats patootie who is the cook. After all, one person is cooking my main dish, another the side, another the salad, and yet another the dessert. Mon Apr 17 09:06:46 -0700 2006 1702018 0 BlueHerons 2 1702082 Actually, BlueHerons, there is probably a hot line and a cold line guy making your app, a grill, saute and saucier guy making the entree, an at least one pastry person making the desert! I wanted to put my 0.02 in on this converstion but didn't want to sound like I'm specifically attacking anyone else here. I AM a Cordon Bleu trained cook and have been a chef. My Latino co-workers have been 90% Mexican, 8% Gutamalan, and a few miscelaneous other Latin cultures. My co workers also include several African Americans, Some Irish Guys a pile of Italians, some Germans, a few other Jews here and there, and of course a bunch of women. Do you know how absurd I find prejudice in the kitchen? I know the food I make with my own hands is good, and I know the food my co workers make is good. I may grill a ribeye one degree more perfectly than Jose, but Jose grills Salmon more beautifully then I ever have. The Best cook I have ever met in my entire life was a Mexican- he has an almost supernatural ability to combine ingredients quickly, effortlessly, damn near perfectly- and he worked as a breakfast cook in one joint down town and as our saute guy at an upscale pub. The fastest cook I ever worked with was a Mexican- and despite what one of the previous posters mentioned- his "otherness" & lack of formal training didn't prevent him from improvising and improving techniques for the benefit of the company. The smartest cook I ever worked for was Half English- but he made better Paella than I ate in Spain- He knew more about World cusines than I an imagine it is possible to learn in a lifetime- and he never used "fusion" techniques- he cooked as authentic as possible as often as possible. The best sushi chef I know is a Latin guy- i don't know where he's from and frankly, I cdon't care- he buys excellent fish, makes damn near perfect rice, and creates some of the most beautiful displays of presentation and knife skill as I've ever seen. The worst cook I know is my former roommate- an Italian guy who burned garlic, and could ruin a tomato sauce in the blink of an eye. ETHNICITY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH KITCHEN SKILL I went to school because I din't have good cooking role models in my home. Jesus (the "best cook" i mentioned before) never had a day of fomal trianing in his life- not on the job, not in a school, not in his home- and he was AMAZING. Good cooks are good cooks because they have skill, practice and a well developed palate- if a cook is missing one of these things, they either learn to compensate or they find a niche that works for them. If your meal at the French Laundry is made by Claus, by Mickey, by Ellen, or by Jose- IT WILL STILL BE GOOD BECAUSE THE COOK IS GOOD. I don't work in kitchens any more because I needed to make more money and get off of my feet. Cooks are paid badly- and like many other ill-paid jobs, you find a lot of immigrants in the profession- trying to do the best they can. Just because they're a different color or gender has almost NO impact on their ability to cook, learn new recipes & techniques, or improvise. If a Japanese man spends 3 years making rice, I don't disagree that he probably makes some pretty freaking great rice, but why couldn't an Irish woman who spent an equivalent time excell as well. I refuse to touch the horribly sexist ideas that certain kitchen personel carry with them. If every immigrant vanished from supplying us with food in general, and became ghettoized into their specific culture's cusine, we would all be the poorer for it. /END RANT Mon Apr 17 10:36:17 -0700 2006 1702077 0 jdherbert 3 1702120 Thought you might enjoy this recent article about the three line cooks at San Francisco's Zuni who keep the place humming. Link: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/09/07/FDG9IEIG6P1.DTL&type=printable Tue Apr 18 04:23:48 -0700 2006 1702082 0 Melanie Wong 4 1702123 Thank you, Melanie- That is EXACTLY what i meant. I'm sure there's a story out there somewhere about that kind of comradarie on the line, too. Cooks are cooks. I love articles like that one... :) Tue Apr 18 10:15:16 -0700 2006 1702120 0 jdherbert 5 1702129 You wrote above, "ETHNICITY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH KITCHEN SKILL" I don't think anyone here disputes that ancestry is totally irrelevant. Look at Marcus Samuelsson. He's Swedish, and one of the top New York chefs. But his ancestors are African. He was born in a tiny village in Ethiopia, adopted while an infant by a Swedish couple, and raised in Sweden. Would he be a better cook of Swedish dishes had his ancestors been Swedish? No, he couldn't be better, and I know because I've eaten his food. Tue Apr 18 11:52:48 -0700 2006 1702123 0 Brian S 3 1702146 What a misguided lovefest. There's no issue with ethnicity in terms of working in a kitchen as a line cook - anybody can learn to do anything within whatever range of talent they were born with and how hard they're willing to work. That's not the same as saying that ethnic foods mean the same to everybody, are eaten or appreciated with the same sets of judgement or values, or are equally understood - ultimately by the clientele, but also by any chef. When the same line cooks open their own place and serve whatever they were trained to make, will they have the memories of their childhood to create the appropriate new menus and to replicate special items from the countries that their place now represents? From our street foods to our day-to-day eateries to our specialty houses, foods, service, presentations - everything is different here than in the countries of origin of these foods. Yes, of course, there's bad food all over the world, but the really great stuff that you only find out there when you get out to the world is rarely replicated here, and when done right are rarely indeed replicated by people who did not grow up with that particular cuisine. And that's the way it oughta be. The idea that the whole world ought to now be homogenized to the point where we can find the best of all foods anywhere is ludicrous. Outside of maybe Little Tokyo or NYC, where is that great Tempura that is so fresh, that is so zaku-zaku that your mouth just thanks you for putting it in there - and stays that way, all night, by the way, since the oil is always fresh? And if you do find it outside of Japan, you will not find a Gaijin making it. How many of the schnitzel or the fiorellen or herrings brot vans, I used to frequent on the side of the road in Germany do you find here? Not that these are necessarily so hard to make (as hard as the tempura) - but there's no clientele - nobody here grew up with these things and thinks of them as being worthwhile pursuing. So where do you think you'll find the best cold smoked trout? (Where the heck can you find a real brotchen?) How many Americans go to Izakaya's after work and drink and munch through some truly unique creations that far exceed the best sashimi boats, americanized maki's, all the standard junk stuff that Americans think of as being judged by the freshness of the fish, or the alignment of the grains of rice on the nigiri. Sushi goes way beyond that - but it's not in our culture where this is appreciated - it's in Japan, by Japanese. The key to acceptance and non-descrimination isn't making everybody the same. As offended that one might be when a Latino is treated worse (or subjected to greater scrutiny) for his sushi than a Japanese, the solution isn't to say that the sushi products always have the same potential of being equal. The justice and equality comes in the understanding that the Latino's empanadas are nonpareil. Yes - latinos are cooking everywhere and doing a great job. Some are learning sushi. Some may actually become sous chefs at great places. But my bet is that these latino sushiya's will never run a place like Nobu or Morimoto - that they will never get the clientele and become world-famous. Of course, it will be because of the prejudice against them - and if they are one of the few that really, really understand the ethnicity (culture and food), that's too bad. But I also think that most will never actually be at the same level as the best of the native-born and raised, and that there will have been a good reason, not to pre-judge, but to judge harshly. Ultimately, you have to ask, why didn't that person take his childhood memories, and take those to the heights they deserved to be? I suspect that many people simply have never had the best. I absolutely do not think that the best BBQ is in Boston, the best sushi is in the US, the best Paella is in California, etcetc... The best food of whatever ethnicity is somewhere in that country or area of origin - which means that the best chef of that product is most likely from that country. The only exceptions are bound to be the people that spent a lot of time in those countries. Of course, there are bad Taquerias in Mexico - that's no revelation. But where's the best one? (I mean besides LA.) Tue Apr 18 17:36:19 -0700 2006 1702082 0 applehome 4 1702183 My point has always been the same- the color of your skin or the address of the hospital you were born in has nothing to do with your ability to make food. What does matter is the desire. I don't doubt that Japanese Chefs raised in Japan working in Japanese restaurants probably make great Japanese food. But saying a Japanese man can't make a good paella or a Japanese restaurnat is good just because it employs Japanese people is flat out silly. I ask this question of everyone interested in this discussion: What is your background/culture/ethnicity/country of origin? I'm a caucasion Jew from the suburbs of Chicago. My family is about 3/4 Russian and 1/4 Romanian all via NYC. Neither of my grandmothers cooked, and my mom is a self professed terrible cook. Does that mean the only thing I am destined to accomplish is to make mediocre pickled herring and bland matzo ball soup? Maybe a brown betty for my midwest roots? HELL NO! I will learn to cook whatever the hell I want and keep practicing until I get it right. More to the point, just because my roots are Eastern European, does that make me any less capable of ENJOYING cuisines from other cultures? From a customer perspective, I understand wanting to eat the best and expecting those raised to prepare food in a particular style might be good at it. But as a culinary professional- I'd rather meet the cooks as cooks instead of as stereotypes. To me, that's what chowhounding is really all about- it doesn't matter if the place is called Joe's Taco Shack or Le Francaise- If I want a good taco, I'm looking for one that tastes good. If I want a perfect bearnaise, I don't care who made it, just where I have to go to get more. Sure, if personality is important to you- go to a place with a recognizable name in a trendy neighborhood. There is nothing wrong with places like that- great chefs get paid a lot of money to work there. But Chefs don't make every morsel of food in every course on every plate that leaves the kitchen. I have no problem trusting a chef to hire the best candidates for their kitchen regardless of ethnicity or gender. Wed Apr 19 15:21:37 -0700 2006 1702146 0 jdherbert 5 3425332 I think it matters if the goal of the restaurant is to serve authentic food. Most restaurants in this country don't however serve authentic food, therefore, it doesn't matter who is cooking it. What I mean is the taste palette in Italy is very different than in the US. Italian restaurants (not the touristic ones) in Italy serve totally different food than the ones in this country. Here pastas are submerged with sauce and the more sauce you have and the bigger the plate is, people think the more authentic it is. Real Italians (that were not born in this country) hate Italian food served here. It's too big, too heavy, just not right. Same thing with true french cuisine. How can you expect a Philipino cook who grew up eating soy sauce and fish sauce, understand the flavor of tarragon, saffran, etc. There's a training period. The head chef neads to train the cooks on what the dish is supposed to taste like and get them used to thoses aromas and flavors. So if your goal when eating at an ethnic restaueant is to have authentic food. then your best bet is to stay away from big corporations and go for more the mom and pop shops. Fri Feb 22 14:30:02 -0800 2008 1702183 124967 foodlover3 4 3426348 I have to say that I disagree with your opinion if you are referring to very specific foods (say paella or nigiri sushi or spring rolls), When I was working at an Indian restaurant the Indian owners told me I made the best naan (trust me, I'm not Indian), however I rely in the bread sense I've developed simply by learning much about European style breads (I also never ate European style breads when I grew up) and a good feel for the best consistency of dough. However, when you refer to a broad range of food from the native area (say Cantonese or regional BBQ or Alsacian food) then most certainly the person (regardless of skin tone) will have the advantage of reproducing traditional flavours simply because they've been born with it. Fri Feb 22 20:48:10 -0800 2008 1702146 10980 Blueicus