302918 Mon Feb 06 19:53:31 -0800 2006 29 29 Not About Food 0 1699370 Ok, another discussion about authenticity, appropriateness, and food preferences. Here’s the deal. A real lobster shack opened up near San Francisco. A small group of New Englanders on the board celebrate any chance to have a real fried clam roll every now and then. On almost every single find of East Coast shellfish, there is a post that says local seafood is good enough. Stop wasting precious oil flying them lobsters across the country. The discussion ended with this statement: “There's a charming, delightful place near Puerta Vallarta. It's a thatched-roof pavilion right on the beach and they feature fresh-caught lobster. How do you think that concept would play on the seashore in Maine, complete with flown-in spiny lobster? “ Well, my thought is that the only thing that should matter is that the place serves delicious food. There might be all sorts of reasons that someone would appreciate a place like that in Maine - that was their home - it reminds them of a wonderful vacation - it is something different and delicious - reasons I can’t think of I probably should have moved the discussion to this board myself, but I’ve been interested in cleaning some things up and was just on the board to see if there were any questions about the lobster shack that I could answer. I’ll repeat some of discussion: - There are few restaurants anywhere that serve strictly local food - Following that logic, California produce shouldn’t go to the East Coast - Should we give up tea, coffee, bananas etc because they can’t be locally produced? Should the delight of sipping European wine and beer be restricted to overseas vacations … and on and on - It does a disservice to the restaurant being discussed. A few people might decide to go with the moral argument. In this case it is a small place, in a bad location, serving something different and doing a fine job. If the fuel is going to be wasted, isn’t it better to blast someplace like Red Lobster that doesn’t treat the seafood with the proper care. - It discourages discussion about specific foods no matter how long a poster has been on the board. Most of us have our pet food causes which I won’t mention because it will divert this discussion to that. There are certain foods that make me grit my teeth when I read people drooing about them, yet I don’t respond because, well, I’d get deleted or told that it wasn’t in the narrow focus of Chowhound’s scope. This is was the poster’s other comments in that last post: “ Sorry if folks who happen to have East Coast roots take things personally when someone criticizes those eateries with bogus New England ambience located on our Pacific shore and which add additional inappropriateness by featuring jet-lagged seafood taken from Atlantic waters. Anyway fellow hounds, this discussion is not about roots, it's about authenticity, appropriateness, and a preference for food that doesn't consume unnecessarily amounts of fossil fuel to get to our tables. “ Isn’t the bottom line ... does the food taste good? Mon Feb 06 19:53:31 -0800 2006 0 rworange 1 1699375 I'll let you know Thursday night! Mon Feb 06 20:52:21 -0800 2006 1699370 0 Renee 1 1699376 rworange, will you marry me? I can't thank you enough for starting the ball rolling on this VERY important discussion. I've been meaning to all day because it has been a topic of conversation for the past week with me. This authentic vs. not but still good thing is important when recommending places. Let's start with authentic. I totally get the desire for authentic. Someone maybe grew up in country X and misses that food and will only really be happy if it is "authentic." I want to learn more about Jamaican food so would like a rec for an authentic restaurant w/ which I can use as a base of comparison when I try other Jamaican places. The reasons can go on and on. Nothing wrong with wanting "authentic." But something can be inauthentic AND still be good! I'm no Rick Bayless; all I know is that I really like the salsa verde at Pastores. Is it authentic? I don't know. I just know that I like it. I have never been to Russia but I do know that I have had borscht I like and some I don't. For all I know, I am rejecting the real deal and liking the inauthentic stuff. And another part of this debate that really has my head scratching is that simply being say Chinese somehow by default makes one an expert on Chinese food or even knowing what *good* Chinese food tastes like. Just because Gianni Doe is Italian doesn't mean he necessarily has a good palate or would even know a good pizza if it came up and slapped him. And perhaps even more infuriating is the I'm X and that rest. isn't authentic Y. For example: I'm Asian and that is NOT authentic Vietnamese food. That's sort of like saying I'm Italian and that is not real Swiss food. Geographic proximity of countries does not equal one's expertise w/ said cuisine. Maybe as a Brazilian you DO have a wide range of experience w/ Argentinean food based on your own culinary experiences. But not by default! Look, ask 2 people from Bologna how to make an "authentic" Bolognese and you will get 3 answers. I think knowing if my favorite taco place is authentic or not is good to know. But it is not going to affect my judgement. And using the "it's not authentic" card to dismiss a restaurant out of hand is not conducive to my search for good food. Mon Feb 06 20:53:07 -0800 2006 1699370 0 CH Addict 2 1699377 I just this second posted the above and realized this (my above posting) was NOT really what you were talking about at all. Just a tangential. So I'm sorry. I *do* get what you are saying about local vs. import. I just went off in another direction. Mon Feb 06 20:58:50 -0800 2006 1699376 0 CH Addict 3 1699539 But there HAVE been two threads that discuss this subject intelligently and at length. One is linked below, and I've included a link to the other in my reply above to the post on does a great restaurant have to be innovative. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/301046#1677024 Fri Feb 10 12:19:46 -0800 2006 1699377 0 Brian S 2 1699427 "...ask 2 people from Bologna how to make an "authentic" Bolognese and you will get 3 answers." I love it, will have to use it on my dear Italian FIL. Thanks for the chuckle. Tue Feb 07 20:51:21 -0800 2006 1699376 0 PolarBear 1 1699378 hmm, i don't get what else there is to say about this. you're absolutely correct. case closed! Mon Feb 06 21:05:33 -0800 2006 1699370 0 mrnyc 1 1699383 On the LA board, the discussion is almost ALWAYS about pizza and it's almost always the reverse. Someone posts, "I had the pizza at Albano's and it reminded me of home growing up in Canarsie," and four people reply and say something really helpful like, "No, it sucks, there's no real NY pizza in LA." (Since there's no terrible pizza in New York at all.) Of course there isn't. There are a million things that make NY pizza different, down to the humidity in the air when the pizza gets made. That doesn't mean that Albano's (or Lamonica's, or Dino's, or whatever) isn't good pizza, or even great pizza, but because it's not whatever "NY pizza" means to someone, it's not worth eating. Whaaaat? I never troll the NY boards, but I imagine it's much the same with LA transplants looking for produce or for great Mexican food. The cheesesteak thing is an even better example. There's a place that flies in rolls from Amoroso's and everytime somebody reviews it there's a chorus of "Who needs the hassle of trying to park there, our rolls here are just fine!" Who cares, as long as it's tasty? Ultimately, it's only a waste of fuel and effort if no one will pay for it. If no one pays for it, the restaurant goes under. SOMEBODY is buying the Maine lobsters in San Francisco or the restaurant wouldn't be there. SOMEBODY is paying for the rolls to be flown in from Philadelphia or they wouldn't bother, they'd get their rolls from Eagle Rock Bakery or wherever like everyone else. One wonders if the same SF posters, having been transferred to Boston because of work, complain about the absence of great burritos and improbably good produce in the winter and oh if only someone would open a French Laundry-type place in Cambridge! I'm as much a proponent of trying to eat locally-produced foods, but frankly, if you think a restaurant is inappropriate, just don't go there. Mon Feb 06 23:45:05 -0800 2006 1699370 0 Das Ubergeek 2 1699395 Life can be full of surprises, and stereotypes are just simply stereotypes. There is a place in Cambridge that I like more than the French Laundry. It doesn't have all the "Michelin-starred" bells and whistles, nor is the standard meal there a 16 course affair, but on the plate, the refinement and technique is exceptional and much more to my taste. No, I haven't found pizza in the East Coast like the one I had in Naples. I'd take lobsters from Brittany over the Maine ones any day (although I might have been biased by the quality of the preparation I had in France). Tue Feb 07 09:10:40 -0800 2006 1699383 0 Limster 3 1699398 I think the original point was, though, if suddenly in Boston you found a restaurant that flew in Brittany langoustes and prepared them like they do in France, would you call it "inappropriate" and "a waste of fuel"? Tue Feb 07 10:17:57 -0800 2006 1699395 0 Das Ubergeek 4 1699439 Wasn't responding to the original point, but debunking some stereotypes e.g. NY pizza is the be all and end all, and ex-SF hounds complaining about produce, burritos and the lack of French Laundry-esque places in Cambridge. Wed Feb 08 00:40:54 -0800 2006 1699398 0 Limster 5 1699440 what's the name of the place in cambridege limster? Wed Feb 08 02:36:24 -0800 2006 1699439 0 kevin 6 1699441 Salts. It's seems to be well liked by the Boston Board (although there is some healthy dissent), but definitely under the radar compared to other places that are more "downtown." Love to discuss it more on the Boston board if you like. Wed Feb 08 03:22:31 -0800 2006 1699440 0 Limster 7 1699444 will do, did you used to posts on the sf boards?? Wed Feb 08 12:33:40 -0800 2006 1699441 0 kevin 8 1699447 Yes, I used ot post on the SF Boards back when i lived there. I still browse through it once in a while. Wed Feb 08 13:15:48 -0800 2006 1699444 0 Limster 2 1699540 "Whaaaat? I never troll the NY boards, but I imagine it's much the same with LA transplants looking for produce or for great Mexican food." Ohhh you have no idea how many people post "Visiting NY from city X and ALL I want is pizza and pastrami because we get far better of everything else at home, especially Mexican and Asian." Well, they're missing a lot. And I do look at the LA board because it gives me a standard of judging NY Chinese restaurants, and suggests new dishes to look for. Fri Feb 10 12:30:04 -0800 2006 1699383 0 Brian S 1 1699386 This sounds more like the "globalization" issue, rather than the "authenticity" one. At one point in time, the idea of having the best food was to have the best food of the area. You looked forward to Dungeness in SF, Stone in FL, and an Atlantic Lobster in NE. Specific items were only available in particular areas and it was a wonderful event to take a trip somewhere to get that special treat. That era has gone. Today, jets fly foods everywhere. We grow and raise so much food in so many ways that doing without something, either seasonally or because it is too expensive, is less and less of an issue. So if someone wants the honorable Homard in Frisco, why not? It's not any different than having a stone crab claw in Boston. It's not a matter of comparing one to the other - they're all available - everywhere. Beef is better and more available to us than ever before. The result is that the run-off from the grazing and massive amounts of cattle sewage are destroying the land. Chilean fruit is most certainly using up petroleum. Supply and Demand... But this relates to authenticity: People native to one area settle in another. In the past, the lack of particular ingredients forced these folks to alter their menu - this is part of the normal evolution of foods. But today, if a Vietnamese family in Boston can get everything they used to get in Vietnam, they can serve exactly what they used to have - authentic and unevolved. I'm not saying this is good or bad, just that it's different. Tue Feb 07 01:20:17 -0800 2006 1699370 0 applehome 1 1699392 I think that your beef is with people who are serious food snobs. Billions have been made on transporting local food experiences from one location to another. Following that line of logic, there would be no Thai, Chinese, Japanese, Italian or other ethnic restaurants. People would basically be at the mercy of what could be grown, harvested, caught, slaughtered in their immediate area. Tue Feb 07 08:42:06 -0800 2006 1699370 0 BlueHerons 2 1699557 ....which is what California Cuisine is all about, right? Sharuf = Alice Waters, for the sake of this argument. And FWIW, I think he's right. His coals-to-Newcastle argument is spot-on. As we say in Chicago, I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'. Fri Feb 10 21:57:15 -0800 2006 1699392 0 sdp 1 1699394 There's another problem, just because your served a lobster in Maine doesn't mean it comes from Maine. A "Maine" lobster could very easily come from Nova Scotia. I also don't believe seafood travels very well. A Dover Sole in Toronto has never tasted as good as one in London. Hard to tell whether that's due to my defective taste buds, the influence of the location or if the fish in Toronto suffered in transit. At least with a Dover Sole or a Spiny lobster you can tell what you are being served as compared to a Maine versus Nove Scotia lobster. Tue Feb 07 09:02:52 -0800 2006 1699370 0 Tom 1 1699402 As a self confessed food snob and a strong proponent of local cuisine, I must say I found the "eco-trolling" on the SF board to be downright offensive, and counterproductive to our cause. You don't get folks to start eating local by insulting them. You get them to eat local by showing them delicious local foods. One bite of an heirloom peach fresh from the tree will do a lot more in converting someone than an extended diatribe against New England seafood. In this case, what made the trolling truly offensive is that the OP is a huge fan of local produce who has spent hundreds of hours shopping at Farmers' Markets and regularly dines at "green" restaurants but happens to enjoy the guilty pleasure of New England seafood once in a while. This exclusivity, this "if you are not 100% local and organic you are part of the problem" mentality is exactly what creates all of the animosity towards the organic movement. By being pedantic jerks we are actually discouraging people from eating organic. Good chow is good chow and Chowhound has no political creed. It is my personal goal to turn people on to good chow that is also "green" and I can use Chowhound for this purpose. If I can show someone who is skeptical about local food just how delicious an artisinal salami or an organic jam can be then I've accomplished something, even if the person goes out for lobster rolls the next day. And if that lobster roll happens to be a fabulous dish at a reasonable price then I want to hear about it on my regional board! After all, no one is completely ethically consistent (if we were, there wouldn't be a coffee house on every corner in the Bay Area.) Tue Feb 07 13:25:13 -0800 2006 1699370 0 Morton the Mousse 2 1699408 Thanks Morton for getting it. Sometimes a little validation and understanding help alot. It isn't a hot button issue like ... from looking at the board recently ... something like Kosher food. Who cares if someone hounds you, so to speak, about liking New England shellfish. It just gets to be a drag to have to address the issue almost every time posting about something as simple as seafood. My initial reply was the height of ineptness. I wanted to wrap stuff up and knew giving a reply that the restaurant served only New England seafood as far as I knew was going to elicit the usual, as you put it, "eco-trolling" reply. So I thought I'd just give the answer up front and, if the poster was really interested in the issue, to continue the discussion in the appropriate place. This was someone who has posted as long as I have, if not longer. Despite that, the conversation was continued on the board even after a friendly Chowhound request about moving it to another board. So while my post was inept, that final post was just a little in your face. "Eco-trolling" trolling indeed. And the poster elicited yet another response to that. So that is when I moved this down here. I can take alot. However, my concern is that someone with a less hard shell than mine is going to be chastised for their taste in in whatever unpopular issue, in their opinion. And it just looks bad. I'm surprised to see that discussion still on the board. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/boards/sitetalk/messages/18568.html Tue Feb 07 15:05:18 -0800 2006 1699402 0 rworange 3 1699411 Just wanted to add that that comment about bogus New England ambience was a little unfair. The poster has not been to the restaurant. It is the same decor as any California seafood restuarnt. Fish. in Sausalito which serves the most ecologically correct local seafood has the exact same setup - order at the counter and sit at a picnic table. The same type of decor in Sea Salt, that crab shack in Half Moon Bay, etc. etc. Would any ethnic restaruant be singled out for decorating in a specific way? And so what if the food tastes good. Sometimes when you post a lot, people feel they can take the kid gloves off. I'm sometimes guilty of that. I don't try to incite anyone, but I know I can be a little more direct with long time posters than someone who is new or posts infrequently. Even then, unless I hit the post key before thinking, I try to phrase those discussions not to turn off someone reading the board that might get scared off. You try to do the best you can on the board to keep it the friendly place you love. It's a learning experience. Mistakes are made. It is just not pleasant to get negative special treatment. Tue Feb 07 16:08:17 -0800 2006 1699408 0 rworange 4 1699416 Please don't worry about the negative special treatment. Some posters like to espouse their political/idealogical views. I find the posters who do this, usually espouse these views in a venomous ( or at least hostile) attitude towards the OP. And I believe that some posters really want to start a flame war. Just let it go- and remember- for the one poster who slams your ideas, there are probably four or five who like your suggestions, but are afraid of the poster who is so negative. Tue Feb 07 16:49:50 -0800 2006 1699411 0 macca 5 1699426 You've brought up an important point here: not everyone posts who reads your reviews and questions. So keep on keepin' on posting, because you may never know whose day you make, despite the negative posts. Non illegitimi carborundum, or whatever they say. Tue Feb 07 19:29:36 -0800 2006 1699416 0 Das Ubergeek 6 1699541 Shouldn't negative "eco-trolling" posts be deleted? Just as vegetarian posts that intrude themselves into a steakhouse discussion would be? Fri Feb 10 12:37:38 -0800 2006 1699426 0 Brian S 2 1699409 Well said. Plus it's not like they're chartering a plane to fly a crate of lobsters, then it would be prohibitively expensive. My understanding is when they fly fish or chocolate over the oceans, they use cargos of the commercial flights that are going that way anyway. California may be blessed with all the high-tech and intellectual industry, but it is also a number 6 agricultural producer in the whole world and I think is a leading produce supplier in the US, what if we all stopped buying californian produce? Tue Feb 07 15:15:42 -0800 2006 1699402 0 welle 3 1699428 There was a book published decades ago (1977?) called Last Days of the Late Great State of California, by Curt Gentry, written IIRC from the geologically impossible theory that CA west of the San Andreas collapsed into the ocean. It was a fun read, at least for us natives, but the one sobering point brought forth was what the impact on the US and the rest of the world would be from the loss of our state's agricultural productivity. Needless to say, it was largely ignored, you can get used copies on Amazon for $2.50. RE chartering a plane, not necessary, a close friend was a physician in Santa Barbara not long ago, a select group once a year would throw a party and serve Maine lobster and other goodies from NE packed in ice and shipped (FedEx?) overnight. IIRC, the cost wasn't that dear when split between a dozen or so people. Tue Feb 07 21:16:09 -0800 2006 1699409 0 PolarBear 4 1699526 Back when I was making about $200 a month at a Silicon Valley graphic arts shop, a bunch of us got together and ordered live Maine lobsters, to be flown out at what for us was the astronomical price of $15 apiece. I got reckless and ordered one EACH for me and my girlfriend. Someone in the shop lived on what had once been a small church camp outside of Los Gatos, with a giant PG&E cable-spool table and a firepit with a giant cauldron, and we all brought corn and potatoes to boil as well. My good lord almighty DAMN, what a feast...! Thu Feb 09 19:43:46 -0800 2006 1699428 0 Will Owen 1 1699442 this site is supposed to be about the food. period. that's what we're here for. food miles are a legitimate food-related concern, but it should be a peripheral concern here, like vegetarianism or organic v. non-organic. Wed Feb 08 05:36:21 -0800 2006 1699370 0 hobokeg