302914 Sun Feb 05 18:05:32 -0800 2006 15 29 Not About Food 0 1699331 With all the negative stories about Teflon going around, I was wondering about the other non-stick surfaces for cooking. Are they all equally horrible (carcinogenic) or is it just Teflon? thanks Sun Feb 05 18:05:32 -0800 2006 0 Rita 1 1699338 A major myth Sun Feb 05 22:38:33 -0800 2006 1699331 0 DAG22 2 1699345 Not a myth at all. 2 areas of issues with teflon - the older, well known problem is the release of harmful compounds if overheated (above 500), but the more recent issue is that even at lower temps it releases CFC's which are contributing to the damage of the ozone layer. All you have to do is type in Teflon in Google and you will see article after article about the dangers of Teflon. See example below. To the OP - my understanding is that all non-stick coatings are PTFE and Teflon is only a trade name for one manufacturer (DuPont - the original). I haven't heard of a non-stick coating that is not PTFE. I use Teflon pans for quick saute or pan-fry, but only on the stove-top (never in the oven) and never for extreme temps. I guess I'm not as convinced that the CFC issue is so severe that I should stop using it altogether. Link: http://www.mercola.com/2001/aug/1/teflon.htm Mon Feb 06 02:17:10 -0800 2006 1699338 0 applehome 3 1699349 All the most recent reports I've heard here in NYC on the news have been about carcinogens concerning a specific chemical used in making the teflon: "A federal scientific advisory panel released a draft report last year that said P-F-O-A has caused tumors in rats and is a "likely carcinogen in humans."" Johns Hopkins is now studying it's affects on newborns. Like the OP - I'm interested in knowing about other nonstick surfaces, specifically how enamel covered pots work as nonstick and if they have similar possible carcinogens? Link: http://wjz.com/topstories/local_story_037075840.html Mon Feb 06 08:55:55 -0800 2006 1699345 0 krissywats 4 1699433 That may be of concern to those working in plants that produce Teflon, but not to the rest of us. It's like saying that table salt is poisonous because it's composed of the noxious elements sodium and chlorine. Tue Feb 07 22:51:46 -0800 2006 1699349 0 porkbun 3 1699356 Something is fishy about your linked site. It claims CFCs are major greenhouse gases. Wrong. (Note that that site appears to be anti water fluoridation.) The major greenhouse gases are carbon dioxide, methane, and water vapor. They increase the earth's temperature by blocking the outward longwave radiation (infrared). The CFC problem is different - they are stable compounds that are blamed for destruction of the high atmosphere ozone layer, primarily over the Antarctic. Since ozone blocks UV radiation, less ozone means more UV radiation at the surface, and possible increase in cell damage (i.e. skin cancer). Even if CFCs block longwave radiation like carbon dioxide does, the levels of CFCs in the atmosphere are no where as high as the major greenhouse gases. The big sources of CFCs have been refrigerants and industrial cleaners. I'd want to do more reading before believing that Teflon (or its manufacture) is a source of CFCs high in the polar atmosphere. paulj Mon Feb 06 14:00:12 -0800 2006 1699345 0 paulj 1 1699391 I've not done much research on it, but I'm very happy with my Swiss Diamond frying pan - I always use a little oil though. It browns wonderfully and can go in the oven as well. Link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006DWIEM/002-8011082-9251203?v=glance&n=284507 Tue Feb 07 08:19:38 -0800 2006 1699331 0 MMRuth 2 1699403 I would be concerned about putting this in the oven or stove-top cooking at high temperatures. It may be diamond impregated, but it is still non-stick, and therefore PTFE. The company (see link below) says they're safe up to 500F, which is the same for all PTFE/teflon products. Link: http://www.swissdiamond.com/ Tue Feb 07 13:35:15 -0800 2006 1699391 0 applehome 3 1699405 If the company says the pan is safe to 500°, why would you think putting it into an oven would be a problem? The oven temperature is likely to be no more than 400°. Tue Feb 07 14:30:39 -0800 2006 1699403 0 Jeremy Newel 3 1699410 It is hard to find mention of PTFE or Teflon on web sites like Swiss Diamond. However, it appears that most of the innovation in nonstick coatings lies in the use things like ceramics and diamonds. They don't provide the nonstick quality themselves, but appear to make the surface more durable, either by protecting it from abrasion, or improving its adherence. IF one of the dangers ingestion of PTFE particles with the food, then a more durable coating would be safer, even if it still uses PTFE. I stress the 'if' here, such ingestion may not be a problem. paulj Tue Feb 07 15:29:50 -0800 2006 1699403 0 paulj 4 1699412 I don't find the specific references right now, and I'll keep looking - but I don't believe that there's anything else out there. When a manufacturer says "non-stick", it's Teflon/PTFE - whether Dupont or otherwise. This isn't the same as seasoned cast metal or anodized metal or ceramic over metal or enameled cast iron - none of those are specifically called "non-stick". My understanding is that there are more modern derivatives of PTFE, with improved adhesion and lasting capabilities, but the basic material is the same, and that they all share the same toxicity. If Swiss Diamond (or anybody else) is specifically attempting not to say Teflon or PTFE in their ads/site it's probably not because they don't use it, but that they're well aware of the negatives. Like I said, I use teflon - what I've read hasn't kept me from using it. I have 2 commercial grade fry-pans, 8" and 10" that are used for lots of day to day sauteing. I am very careful about inspecting these - any sign of the coating coming off in anyway, or becoming deeply scratched, and I junk them and buy new ones at the commercial supply store. I do think that I need to take extra care to not leave the pan on or do something foolish to bring the temp anywhere close to 500F. I think the dangers are real - there's just too much written about it, including something in the news from one of the original Dupont engineers last November, saying that they were fully aware of the dangers even in the 60's. As to the oven thing, I actually have not run into a situation where I want to put my teflons in the oven recently. My stainless steel all-clad is what I normally use for pan-frying chops or steaks that need to be finished off with some pan-roasting - especially since I would normally want to use the fond, and that's impossible with teflon. Obviously if you feel safe that the manufacturer has tested the coating and as they say, it will not be affected by prolonged constant heat below 500F, then you should certainly use it in the oven. I had a Bourgeat non-stick evasee that I had fallen in love with and used everywhere for everything, including in the oven. When I found that the non-stick surface had worn and that food was sticking, I got to wondering just how much of this stuff I had been feeding to my family for how long. I felt that putting it in the oven contributed to the wear, even though I had never roasted at anything close to 500F, and I had never scratched it deeply. Probably just a combination of being superstitious and reading the "teflon is bad" articles. Question is, if you don't have to, why take the risk? Tue Feb 07 16:18:28 -0800 2006 1699410 0 applehome 5 1699423 I wonder how much of the wear that we experience with nonstick pans occurs during cooking, and how much during cleaning. Coating that comes off in cooking would be incorporated into the food. Whether those particles are actually absorbed into the bloodstream is another question. They may just pass on through, ending up in the sewer (with the cleaning water). It is possible that any Teflon particles, or derivatives, that are in our bodies, have come from the environment via food and water, rather than directly from pans. paulj Tue Feb 07 18:53:28 -0800 2006 1699412 0 paulj 6 1699434 While it is perfectly possible, but highly improbable, that PTFE is safe for us, I prefer to be skeptical, particularly after I see the full-page ad referred to by an earlier Hound. Problem is, the FDA is so risibly bad at doing its job, so compromised, as it is, by outside interests. Let me give a case in point. Aspartame (artificial sweetener) had been known for over ten years to be a carcinogen. In Europe it is now banned. But it is still available here - indeed, it is ubiquitous. With a little research, I'm sure I could come up with many similar examples, where the FDA gives a substance a green light, contradicted by contemporary science. So it is with PTFE. If DuPont is worried, it is because the public is worried. Why is the public worried? Because foodies like we Chowhounders are worried. It follows, then, that the FDA should be worried. But they are not. We are right to be skeptical. Stick to stainless, like All Clad's examplary pans. All we need is a little elbow grease to keep them clean. And the food cooked in such pans even tastes better! Tue Feb 07 23:33:35 -0800 2006 1699423 0 Sean Dell 7 1699435 But aren't you worried about the chromium oxide that forms the (invisible)rust resistant layer on stainless steel? Is it a good thing to be exposed to chromium? paulj Tue Feb 07 23:56:55 -0800 2006 1699434 0 paulj 8 1699450 I think that I'll just slit my wrists and get it over with now! Wed Feb 08 13:35:54 -0800 2006 1699435 0 rudeboy 1 1699451 Interesting piece in today's New York Times, Dining In section, about Teflon, and DuPont's defense of it. Required reading. Particularly for those of us who prefer Chromium Dioxide (Stainless) over PTFE or PFOA! Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/08/dining/08teflon.html Wed Feb 08 13:48:36 -0800 2006 1699331 0 Sean Dell