302837 Sat Jan 07 08:08:48 -0800 2006 32 29 Not About Food 0 1698355 after glaring balefully at my housekeeper evry time he breaks a riedel wine glass cleaning it, i managed to do the same - i had to soap it to get some wine stain out, the darned thing slipped and there went another one. i guess i've had oh about 10 glasses break on me in 2005. one solution of course is to switch to cheaper wine glasses and tolerate the breakage. but, psychological or not, i swear that these glasses indeed enhance aromatics and so i'm reluctant to stop using them. how DO you clean wine glasses carefully? how do you get the dried red wine stain out of the bottom of the glass? your guests lipstick stain (pox on her) from the rim? Sat Jan 07 08:08:48 -0800 2006 0 howler 1 1698358 I bought six early in 2003, a real extravagance for me. Now, early in 2006, I'm down to one. (I'm doing better than you are!) I broke one almost immediately, but was really careful thereafter. I did drop the singleton the other day, and the damned thing bounced and not a nick. Reidel says (link below) that you should just rinse with plain water, no soap necessary. But when red wine sits for a while, I can't believe water alone would work. For my one and only glass, I put a drop of dish soap (not detergent) into it and fill with hot water. Let it sit. When I think about it, I go back and swish the water around with one of those sponge things on a stick. I think this is safer than poking a dish cloth inside the glass. Rinse well. Dry it (carefully) right away with some sort of lint free cloth. I'm determined to make this last glass last! Tempting fate, I use if for everything: water, milk, juice, and wine. Happy New Year, Howler! Link: http://www.riedel.com/website/english/frameset/homeenglish/information/cleaning_guide/cleaning_guide.html Sat Jan 07 10:31:55 -0800 2006 1698355 0 Pat Hammond 2 1698359 pat, you are the truly best. happy new year to you too! Sat Jan 07 10:59:15 -0800 2006 1698358 0 howler 1 1698361 We stick them in the dishwasher most of the time using "Stem Saver" inserts. When washing by hand, I fill up the glass with hot water in advance and let it set for about ten minutes. It will break up the red wine scum at the bottom. After that, I do the same thing Pat does. We also have a small Oxo wand that it quite narrow. What type of Riedel are you using? My comments apply to the Vinum line which I believe is sturdier than other lines. Sat Jan 07 12:21:55 -0800 2006 1698355 0 JudiAU 2 1698366 I wash Riedel Vinums in the dishwasher too and use the extra hot water scrub for extra sparkle. I'm loving my new kitchenaid that can fit 24 glasses in the top rack. For a small number of glasses and other Riedels that I wash by hand, I use scalding hot water and a plastic-handled baby bottle brush (from Target). Don't use one with a metal handle and you can scratch your glasses if you slip. Sat Jan 07 12:59:52 -0800 2006 1698361 0 Melanie Wong 3 1698367 If you wash your wine glasses with any regularity in a dishwasher and you don't have incredibly soft water, the minerals in the water will etch your glasses and keep in mind lead crystal is softer than regular glass. The first indicator that your glasses are being etched will be a bit of a rainbow sheen. When you get to that point it is too late. They will develop a haze after that and it is not removable. Sat Jan 07 13:04:09 -0800 2006 1698366 0 Candy 4 1698369 yup - thats how we found out pablo was cheating cleaning the glasses. i have a few glasses that look as if soapy film has dried on them thanks to pablos penchant for the dishwasher. funny thing is, almost exactly the same happened with our normal water glasses. Sat Jan 07 14:11:07 -0800 2006 1698367 0 howler 5 1698375 Oh yes, it will happen with regular glass too, it just happens more easily with lead crystal. The lead really softens the glass, I was at a seminar on Baccarat crystal and the sales rep demonstrated that by squeezing gently he could flex the glass slightly, you could probably do that with your Reidels but it is not something I would suggest you try. I am resigned to hand washing the good stuff 99% of the time, and Cascade diswashing detergent is making a dishwasher detergent that is supposed to protect against mineral etching, but I don't totally trust it and I am resigned to getting new everyday glassware every couple of years. I do have some wines we use as every day glasses and they are etched and unattractive but they are for our own use and have a nice shape and fit perfectly in my dishwasher. Those we will just use up, and darn it theh never seem to break. Sat Jan 07 15:48:47 -0800 2006 1698369 0 Candy 6 1698380 isnt that the truth! the ratty looking glasses go on forever. We have had a major problem with etching in our NY dishwasher even with very soft water - we have downsized to using only 1/4 of a cake of detergent, but even so, I notice that some nice glasses of mine were starting to haze, so no more. Sat Jan 07 16:20:58 -0800 2006 1698375 0 jen kalb 7 1698396 Try Trader Joe's powder dishwasher detergent. Very good rating by CU and doesn't cloud glass, at least that's my experience. And no odor (read "Fresh Smell") to boot. Sat Jan 07 22:00:39 -0800 2006 1698380 0 BluPlateSpec 8 1698402 It is not the deetergent that etches and clouds the glass it is the mnerals in the water. Sun Jan 08 13:15:46 -0800 2006 1698396 0 Candy 9 1698405 What are those of us to do who live in hard water areas? In the desert Southwest, our water is very, very hard even with a (saline) water softener. Buying gallon jugs of spring water for dishwashing is not feasible, so what is the alternative, please? Sun Jan 08 15:53:42 -0800 2006 1698402 0 Sherri 10 1698406 Actually, I'm not sure that Candy's correct. I'd been led to believe previously that the etching is more of a soft water problem in combination with high phosphate dishwasher detergents and high heat during the drying cycle. With hard water you have the problem of mineral residues on your glassware. Sun Jan 08 18:30:05 -0800 2006 1698405 0 Melanie Wong 11 1698408 No, it is the minerals in the water. Good glassware needs to be hand washed. In my old days as a China, Crystal, Silver buyer I have been to more seminars and classes on selling and care of these products than you will ever want to know about. If it was a deposit you could scrub it off, carefully, or use something to dissolve it but once the minerals etch the glass you are sunk and there is no repair or return. Also I never use my drying cycle, that is a waste of money. And, I have etched plenty of glasses and use a low phosphate detergent, I have no choice in detergents it is a state mandate. After wrecking some Waterford irretrieveably I learned to listen to what I was benng taught by the experts. The water is heated hot enough in the DW wash and rinse cycles that the stuff dries quite quickly,especially if you will crack the DW open and let the steam out. It will air dry verry quickly. No need whatsoever to use heated drying cycle. Sun Jan 08 20:02:14 -0800 2006 1698406 0 Candy 12 1698409 As I stated in my previous post where tried to correct your misunderstanding about what I said, I have no disagreement with you about not putting fine crystal in the dishwasher. But it seems that most of the references I can find about glass or crystal etching on the web (google for "soft water" glass etching) point to soft water and especially artificially softened water as the culprit in several hundred citations. I couldn't find any similar reference blaming the minerals in hard water --- do you know of any? Link: http://www.instawares.com/LibbeyGlasswareGuide.asp Sun Jan 08 20:48:33 -0800 2006 1698408 0 Melanie Wong 13 1698411 Here's another article in Water Technology that describes first the formation of silica film then etching in the presence of softened water and high phosphate detergents. Link: http://www.waternet.com/article.asp?IndexID=6635677 Sun Jan 08 20:54:59 -0800 2006 1698409 0 Melanie Wong 14 1698431 thanks for the link Melanie-- interesting to note water temp should be BELOW 140 F. I'll get out my thermo and test mine. Despite softened water, I still get etching. Mon Jan 09 13:22:26 -0800 2006 1698411 0 toodie jane 15 1698436 Again, it's soft water and especially softened water as you have that is causing the etching. Mon Jan 09 14:06:06 -0800 2006 1698431 0 Melanie Wong 16 1698448 I think you're on to it, Melanie. Our city (Fresno) until recently was totally dependent on groundwater (hard) and mineral deposits are the norm. In the NE growth sector most of the homes put in water softeners which was fine until we started supplying that area with surface water which is naturally soft. Soft water is also called "aggressive" water, it dissolves minerals (e.g. lead, iron, copper), so we are trying to get people to understand they shouldn't further treat the water they're receiving since running already soft water through a water softener will cause it to erode the metals in their plumbing system at an accelerated rate. Mon Jan 09 19:09:15 -0800 2006 1698436 0 PolarBear 15 1698439 The SOFT WATER is the reason you have the ETCHING. It is an irrepairable situation. With HARD WATER you get MINERAL DEPOSITS that can be removed with a good soaking in vinegar. Mon Jan 09 15:15:20 -0800 2006 1698431 0 Sister Sue 16 1698444 If SOFT WATER is the etching culprit, will getting rid of SOFT WATER correct the etching situation? Granted, mineral deposits will result, but that can be dealt with using acid of some sort. There was comment regarding the dishwasher water temperature and heated drying cycle ........ Since I don't use the dry cycle at all, I can check water temp fairly easily. What about additives such as JET DRY? Does this help or hinder the etching situation? I have already etched many, far too many, lovely glasses and do not wish to do any additional harm to new pieces. I figure the older ones are a lost cause already and an expensive lesson learned. Having said all this, I have only had a soft water system for 3.5 years and have etched glasses for a much longer period. What about the etching that occurred without S.W.? Same detergent, same town, same state, different house. Mon Jan 09 16:18:15 -0800 2006 1698439 0 Sherri 17 1699519 You can find an excellent article on this at http://www.housekeepingchannel.com/showarticle.php?id=266 Thu Feb 09 17:49:37 -0800 2006 1698444 0 Terry Stephens 11 1698410 Melanie, you are correct. Hard water leaves a mineral deposit that can be removed with a little vinegar. People that have soft water don't need to use as much detergent, but they mistakenly think that they must fill up the detergent cup on the dishwasher. That causes the etching. There is no repair for etching. I have lived in towns that had hard water as well as towns that had soft. I have experienced the soft water etching and the hard water deposits. Also, check out the following website www.hometips.com/home_probsolver/ hps03/03_dishwasher/hps_dishwash06.html Sun Jan 08 20:52:37 -0800 2006 1698406 0 Sister Sue 6 1698383 Low phosphate dishwasher detergents are supposed to etch less (in addition to being better for the environment). When you read the labels it's amazing how much the phosphate content varies, even among different products in the same brand. I got a small plastic tub with a slotted inset to wash my Riedels in -- that way I don't risk banging them against anything hard when I'm soaking them. I use a microfiber cloth to "scrub" any soiled spots and another one to dry them. I've been thinking of cobbling together a glass mop made out of strips microfiber (I bet someone has already thought of that and is manufacturing them) for both washing and drying. Sat Jan 07 16:30:11 -0800 2006 1698375 0 Ruth Lafler 7 1698384 Ruth, I've seen a small mop something like that used to wash wine glasses at a friend's house. I think it was from Fuller Brush. If you track it down, let us know. Sat Jan 07 16:32:38 -0800 2006 1698383 0 Melanie Wong 6 1698392 Thank you for this, Candy. I have been scratching my head ever since my sons moved out of the house. Heretofore, I'd blamed the glass etching on their dishwashing habits and chalked it up to "well, at least they did it". Now, there is no scapegoat and I've been perplexed about the hazy smokiness (?) of everyday glasses inc. wineglasses. Just deciding to buy new ones when these get too ugly to use makes my choice of Crate & Barrel open stock even more sensible than I'd hoped. The good stuff will get carefully washed by hand. I'll keep the etched ones available for guests with a track record for breakage. Sat Jan 07 20:26:26 -0800 2006 1698375 0 Sherri 4 1698381 Yes, that's true. Bear in mind that Riedel Vinum's are not crystal. The crystal Riedels I have are washed by hand. We use the Vinums for sit-down winetastings for a dozen or so people and there's no way that I'm willing to wash 150 glasses by hand. Sat Jan 07 16:26:24 -0800 2006 1698367 0 Melanie Wong 1 1698364 the wine stain at the bottom will loosen up if you soak some hot water in there for a bit. then you can just rinse it out. as for the lipstick rim, run a soapy sponge or cloth along the edge and let a little of the soap run in to the glass. rinse and swirl the whole thing under very hot water and let it dry upside down over a towel, hanging if you can. once the glass is dry, or almost dry, buff it with a clean cloth napkin. i like to wet one end of the napkin just a little bit, then give the glass a swipe to get rid of the water spots, then use a the dry end of the napkin to buff it. or you could steam the glass a little bit and buff it with a dry napkin. Sat Jan 07 12:48:50 -0800 2006 1698355 0 rebs 1 1698365 Denture cleaner (fizzy tablet) takes the red wine stain right out. Sat Jan 07 12:57:03 -0800 2006 1698355 0 Melanie Wong 1 1698368 If washing by hand, rubber dishwashing gloves always help in holding on to soapy items and you can use the hottest tap water. Sat Jan 07 13:54:47 -0800 2006 1698355 0 gp 2 1698376 also a rubber mat in the sink or a dishtowel submerged to help guard against chips and nicks when the glass gomes into contact with the sink. Sat Jan 07 15:50:36 -0800 2006 1698368 0 Candy 1 1698382 I used to have a house keeper who also worked at a high end hotel in their restaurant. She would steam the glasses with a kettle and then dry with a linen cloth - spotless every time and no breakage. Have to say I miss her! Sat Jan 07 16:27:57 -0800 2006 1698355 0 MMRuth 1 1698391 I always rinse out glasses as soon as possible. Then I soak them in hot soapy water. After rinsing them, I let them drain upside down and air dry. Lipstick I wipe off with a wet paper towel. A warning, do not wear rings while washing the glasses. That nice diamond will cut the glass. Sat Jan 07 20:10:59 -0800 2006 1698355 0 Janet