302760 Sun Dec 04 19:59:18 -0800 2005 61 29 Not About Food 0 1697331 i would like your opinion and advice on a situation we encountered last evening that is continuing to peeve us into today. we were invited to a celebratory dinner at an upscale restaurant. note: the host of the event is also sort of a superior to my better half. the superior's wife ordered three bottles of wine for the table and most everyone had a steak (except me: vegan, who had a salad and a vegetable plate) . the table shared salads and sides. since i was driving, i had about one taste of each bottle. when the bill arrived, the wife took the bill and then proceeded to pass it to us and then to the other guests. what we thought was going to be about a $100 evening in fact turned out to be a $320 evening because the wine she ordered was (from what we estimate) about $150 per bottle, which she did not communicate to us. please know that i am not one of those people that squabble over a bill and in fact, detest that so much that generally my better half and i like to pick-up the tab when dining out with friends. that said, this amount is not within our budget, especially not before the holidays. of course, we paid without a hint of our discomfort and that was that. however, i am curious as to the following: 1. maybe i'm old-fashioned, but we assumed since we were invited to this dinner (celebrating the host) and since they made the reservation, planned the seating and selected the wine, that they would be providing the meal. what do you think? also, does the fact that he is a superior to us mean anything? 2. apart from avoiding dining with them again, what is the appropriate etiquette to avoid this situation in the future? do we discuss wine options/prices before ordering? 3. would you be steamed, too? or are we just being petty? thanks. Sun Dec 04 19:59:18 -0800 2005 0 wow i'm a dog 1 1697332 well you were certainly put in a bad position. to answer all 3 of your questions- 1. i don't think it's old fashion to assume that since the host did all of the planning,etc that the dinner was on the host and you were simply a guest. i believe i would be under the same impression, unless the host communicated to me that it was otherwise. you did mention that you thought it may be a "$100 evening" so did you know beforehand that everyone would be pitching in for the bill? just wondering, but that does not excuse one person ordering 3 very expensive bottles of wine w/o making sure if it was ok with the other diners, unless of course she was the one paying for the meal. 2. if i were in your shoes, i probably would avoid dining with them again, although it might not be the appropriate etiquette, but neither is choosing expensive wine (even worse, 3 bottles of very expensive wine) w/o making sure it's ok with the other paying customers. unless you're comfortable telling them how inconsiderate that was, which i doubt seeing as how it's confrontational and the other person is a superior (boss?), i'm not sure if there is any other solution to avoiding the situation other than avoiding dining with them altogether as it seems they lack common courtesy which you can't teach them. 3. no, you're not being petty. in fact, it sounds like you dealt with it maturely. you paid "without a hint of discomfort" knowing that right now especially with the holidays you don't want to be spending an exhuberant amount of money on dinner and wine. would i be steamed? not entirely, very aggravated but not steamed. you live and you learn. Sun Dec 04 20:24:18 -0800 2005 1697331 0 lotsanivanh 2 1697333 thanks for the input. yes, to your point, i realized after i wrote the post that i neglected to include the fact that though we did think that we were guests, based on some history with these folks, we had thought that perhaps (as an outside chance) we would be picking-up a round of cocktails - or at the worst, maybe a portion of our dinner. so i suppose we were somewhat prescient. :| Sun Dec 04 22:24:54 -0800 2005 1697332 0 wow i'm a dog 1 1697334 Well consider yourself better warned about future situations--with these folks and others. I have learned that the best defense is a good offense. When I am these situations, I have learned to say something right away to indicate I have a question about how the bill is to be dealt with. I try to put it in the form of an unknown rather than an assumption in any particular directions. Once you ask, then it become public domain. Even if raised in a light hearted fashion--which is how I do it. Perhaps I just have better manners and more experience to not want to put off other table mates, who might be wondering about the bill. Personally, I have always practiced that if I direct the meal--in terms of pricing (tasting menu, extra dishes, expensive wines, etc), then I should have the responsibility. Now if someone else does, then I have learned to gently inquire if that other person is footing that portion of/the whole bill. Nearly every time, it relieves stress and uncertainty at the table. I think any offense has been minimal. In your case, once the topic of bill sharing is not discussed first hand, I agree to just divey the bill and move on to the next dining experience. Hope your next experience will be better. I have learned only from my mistakes and others. Sun Dec 04 23:07:40 -0800 2005 1697331 0 pattycake 2 1697358 So, how would you phrase your questions? I was thinking about this and maybe if you must go out to dinner with these people again, before the ordering, tell a 'story' about a horrible dining experience you had recently where the bill was shared and one couple ordered an extremely pricy bottle costing everyone hundreds of dollars. Then in your own words say something like, "don't you think that any bottle over xxx bucks should be discussed with the table? Then pushing it a step further you could relay another horrid experience when the table thought they were invited to a dinner and then asked to share the bill. And if your resume is up to date and you've been interviewing, you could cap it off with ... "It's so nice of Mr. and Mrs. Superior to invite us to dinner tonight. It is so generous of them". The only thing that bothers me about the whole story is the fact that maybe some of these people thought they were being treated to dinner and ordered steak. I never order the most expensive dishes when others are treating. Mon Dec 05 15:47:30 -0800 2005 1697334 0 rworange 3 1697366 Telling a story is indirect. And therefore wrong; indirection guarantees misunderstanding from those who are relying on intimidation. Direct polite questions -- as I outlined in a response earlier today -- are the only sure way to go. Mon Dec 05 16:40:03 -0800 2005 1697358 0 Karl S. 4 1697371 I agree with Karl. Being indirect is a way of being polite and helping everybody save face. These can be good things. However, it's often the fastest route to misunderstandings. That's a bad thing. Direct (and yet still polite--yes, it's possible) is the surest way to achieve the goal of clear communication that is friendly. It won't always get you what you want, but it makes all of the expectations clearer from the get go. Mon Dec 05 18:10:00 -0800 2005 1697366 0 smokey 3 1697372 lol.....I think I already told this story on the South board, but earlier this year I was the honored guest (birthday girl) at a very nice restaurant in Atlanta. We started gossiping about some mutual aquaintances, and I told the story of one who had been invited to a business dinner I'd attended at Bern's in Tampa (where the wine list is wonderful and there are some very pricey choices).....Anyway, this obnoxious person we were gossiping about claimed to know wine, so she INSISTED on taking the wine list from the host (very rude, IMO) and then proceeded to order several bottles in the 300 dollar range without consulting her host.....So I was telling this story, and how horrified I was by her behavior, and just as I finished the sommelier came in and told me I had been asked by the hostess to pick the wine....one look at the menu and there were no reasonable choices under 90 bucks! I was so horrified at the thought of becoming the person I talked about, that I asked the sommelier to discreetly show the list to MY hostess and get her advice.......... Mon Dec 05 18:42:10 -0800 2005 1697358 0 janet of reno 3 1697375 we were dining at a steakhouse. Mon Dec 05 18:55:17 -0800 2005 1697358 0 wow i'm a dog 3 1697382 examples: Before I start looking at this wonderful menu/wine list, what's the plan for the bill? Would it be easier to just do separate checks for each couple/person? If I am paying-it is sometimes awkward to come out and say "pig out, the meals on me". So instead, I will say, "it would be my pleasure for you to treat yourselves well tonite" If someone else has taken the lead and gone overboard with ordering food/wine and I am not drinking, I will say something right away like "oh, I guess you don't have that 8am appt tomorrow. I will skip the wine and let's adjust for this on the tab" I would rather have this than the tensions of not knowing but that is me--not everyone can do this. Also, to be fair, I pick up more than my fair share of bills since I like to do this, make more than others and have an expense account. I would likely feel different if I did not. Mon Dec 05 23:24:54 -0800 2005 1697358 0 pattycake 4 1697421 Thanks for sharing. Those are very tactful ways of bringing the money issue up. Thu Dec 08 02:29:21 -0800 2005 1697382 0 boltnut55 5 1697451 You are welcome. Fri Dec 09 00:08:55 -0800 2005 1697421 0 pattycake 1 1697335 You are completely in the right. Your "hosts'" behavior was outrageous. It is perfectly reasonable to split a bill into the alcohol portion and the food portion and divide it accordingly. If you did not drink you should not be subsidizing other people's hundred dollar a bottle alcohol habit. Many restaurants will happily split the bill this way for you (a lot of Tapas bars do it automatically to avoid these problems). If your hosts object they are being selfish jerks. If your "hosts" consumed substaintially more expensive food and drinks there is no reason why they should expect the bill to be split evenly. If these people are at all decent they would recognize how rude it is to ask a guest to pay for part of their meal, which is essentially what they were doing. I would never force such a discomfort on a guest of mine. I always make sure that dinner guests are aware of the expected cost of a meal ahead of time. If I order the steak and my guest orders the salad I will not expect him or her to help pay for my steak. It's almost as if they're taking you out in order to reduce the cost of their own meals! You have every right to be steamed. I would only dine with them again if I made the billing terms completely clear in advance. Unfortunately, as it sounds as if one of them is your superior, you don't have that sort of flexibility. Perhaps it's time to start changing the subject when talk of eating and dinner comes up. Of course, they're sure to be eager to take you out again, because it's so much cheaper for them. Mon Dec 05 02:59:15 -0800 2005 1697331 0 Morton the Mousse 1 1697336 I do not believe you are being petty (and like you, generally we pick up the tab or split it with friends and if anyone gets the short end of the deal, it's us)and I do believe the "host" should have picked up the tab or at least the cost of the wine. I wish I knew of a tactful way to bring this up (especially since the host was a 'superior' of a sort) without offending anyone. Mon Dec 05 08:10:38 -0800 2005 1697331 0 Janet from Richmond 1 1697337 1. Your assumptions were well-founded. The superior and his wife behaved very improperly. It was the dining equivalent of bullying. Atrocious. 2. People need to be much more frank about talking about money. Silence around money issues gives it mythic powers that can really destroy social situations; given that chance, I think it is better to take the risk of making people slightly uncomfortable about being up-front about money than the reverse risk, which is what happened to you and happens to many other folks because of seemingly polite silence. 3. And, no, you are not being petty. Mon Dec 05 08:45:27 -0800 2005 1697331 0 Karl S 2 1697338 One example of dealing with situations up-front is clarifying the nature of an invitation. An invitation by a host usually conveys the sense that he/she is asking you to come to something he/she is arranging. An invitation by a non-host usually conveys the sense that he/she is trying to come to agreement with you about arranging something to do together. Subtle, but important, and something many folks botch. Hence, to avoid misundertanding where the intent is clear, you can clarify in advice. "Are you inviting me/us as a guest?" "Are you (or is someone else) hosting?" "Is there no host, and are we thus going dutch?" "If we are going dutch, am I correct to assume everyone will be responsible for his/her particular share of the meal, rather than splitting the costs equally?" Et cet. as needed. Gets much easier with practice. All of these questions are perfectly reasonable, and offense at being asked them would be misplaced. Mon Dec 05 08:51:16 -0800 2005 1697337 0 Karl S 3 1697342 All of the above is true still the offense maybe misplaced but it is the superior who is misplaced! Mon Dec 05 10:03:43 -0800 2005 1697338 0 1 wiener hound 2 1697345 re point 2: I learned the hard way about this just this weekend. I traveled out of town to attend a workshop, and the teachers had made reservations for us all at a local eatery. I had already used most of my budget on the class and my hotel room, and had very little to spend on dining out (tho I'm happy to make the most of cheap eats), so this posed a problem for me. But instead of being upfront and dining on my own, I aquiesed and then fretted about the cost. The bill was split evenly, and I ended up paying for almost exactly my share of meal, wine, tax and tip. The next lunch was also a communal meal, and I ordered a $3.50 bowl of soup as I almost was out of funds, and still had dinner to buy before driving home. Again the bill was split, and as I was low on cash, I offered a credit card, while everyone else was tossing out cash. I was given a cold look, and told to put my card away, they would buy me lunch. It was very uncomfortable. I wish the teachers had explained that it was custom for everyone to dine out together, and I could have told them in private about my situation. Instead I went along, and fretted. I won't do that again. I'll explain my situation, and who knows, maybe the others would join me. Mon Dec 05 10:52:51 -0800 2005 1697337 0 toodie jane 3 1697367 This was a special situation and you handled it very well. You are right: why not talk with the teachers? If you read my other post (about 2005 and North America) you'll see there is no reason for you to feel uncomfortable. It is your life -- and your finances. Don't let anyone push you in a corner. Mon Dec 05 16:46:45 -0800 2005 1697345 0 Lamaranthe 1 1697340 Steamed. But since it was your better half's superior you probably didn't have much choice anyway. Mon Dec 05 09:41:57 -0800 2005 1697331 0 Tom 1 1697344 We've all been in similar dining situations at some point or other. You got burnt for some serious money but I believe you handled it well because your wife has to work with the man who was celebrating and if you had said something about the cost, it would have ruined the evening and made you look petty. From your post, it seems the celebrant's wife was really out of line in ordering three $150 bottles of wine. She should have consulted with the table beforehand or asked for a separate check and passed it to the main wine drinkers. I never assume anyone is picking up the check beforehand unless they actually say I'm their 'guest' or tell me to have anything I want as it's on them or something to that effect. I've gone out to these so-called celebration dinners and my cheap bosses have let everybody go dutch and yet they've picked the most expensive restaurant because they're 'known' there and want to show off both to their underlings and to the restaurant staff. My advice: it was an expensive lesson and don't go out with them again for dinner. Mon Dec 05 10:49:44 -0800 2005 1697331 0 Flynn 1 1697346 Agree with everything posted. It's been my experience that there is no way to bring this up tactfully AND also have the offending parties recognize themselves. (Rude people, like this woman with her $150 bottles of wine and her husband, never recognize themselves because they are jerks.) Better to never dine with them again if that's possible. Mon Dec 05 12:14:29 -0800 2005 1697331 0 Jonathan Saw 1 1697348 Agree with everyone's point. But as Tom pointed out, it's not just "friends" you are going out with, but your wife's superior. So you are put in a no win situation. I doubt that you can avoid similar situation with these people again, unless your wife wants to find another job. Maybe you can send a letter to Dear Abby and hope these people will recognize themselves. But I doubt it. To add more irritation, they probably put the whole thing on their credit card to get the points, while everyone else had to pay cash, right? Mon Dec 05 12:25:07 -0800 2005 1697331 0 Peter 2 1697365 You are right, it is a no-win situation, but please don't make these nice people feel worse than they already do! I agree with the chowhound friend who suggested they both call in sick at the last moment. This is called the "silent punishment". No use to email flames or spread the news around. Mon Dec 05 16:38:52 -0800 2005 1697348 0 Lamaranthe 2 1697374 we actually all used credit cards, but that would have been the topper! we also once had a "friend" who had us pay her cash for a meal while she put it on her company credit card then said, "great! now i can expense this!" we were aghast. methinks we need new friends. Mon Dec 05 18:53:35 -0800 2005 1697348 0 wow i'm a dog 3 1697396 No kidding... that's about as low as I can imagine. Wed Dec 07 10:28:26 -0800 2005 1697374 0 Sir Gawain 4 1697431 same thing happened once here. it was basically the end of the friendship. Thu Dec 08 12:43:12 -0800 2005 1697396 0 sara 1 1697349 Were there enough people there that you could send this thread to them anonymously? ;-> What jerks - sorry this happened. I'd be p*ed off, but guess it will have to be a live & learn situation. Mon Dec 05 12:38:43 -0800 2005 1697331 0 torta basilica 2 1697354 no, unfortunately not. :| Mon Dec 05 14:55:13 -0800 2005 1697349 0 wow i'm a dog 1 1697351 The only recourse your wife has is to start stealing office supplies. The market for new Swinglines is great. Image: http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:S8Yc1Oxl-UUJ:img.photobucket.com/albums/v411/SDBoneFisher/swingline.jpg Mon Dec 05 13:50:06 -0800 2005 1697331 0 MidtownCoog 1 1697352 I ended up in a similar situation with my parents and in-laws at a dinner with friends. The inlaws and my parents ordered inexpensive appetizers as entrees and drank water. My friends and I ate appetizers, entrees, and had wine with dinner. Since our group of 22 was one long table and the parents sat at the very end, no one noticed they didn't really eat or drink. Only days afterwards was I horrified to learn that they contributed $80 per couple while only eating around $20 per couple. I guess my point is that maybe the superior and his wife just didn't notice. Mon Dec 05 13:51:13 -0800 2005 1697331 0 BlueHerons 2 1697353 Somehow, I suspect it is a habitual M.O. that relies on people being quiet. I've met folks who operate this way, and this situation has a distinct ring to it. The best way to handle such things in the future is to become ill before the meal.... Mon Dec 05 14:08:04 -0800 2005 1697352 0 Karl S 3 1697355 I just find that so difficult to comprehend how someone could be aware of doing this! My husband and I were completely aghast we had done this to our parents! Mon Dec 05 15:22:38 -0800 2005 1697353 0 BlueHerons 4 1697360 I find that a lot of people choose to be "clueless" about what they've done. That is, they know darned well that most people don't drink $150 bottles of wine, but they don't feel like they should change their desires or drink something cheaper to accomodate others. If you had said something when the wine was ordered, they might have felt "caught" and probably chosen something cheaper or wave it off as their treat. But you didn't, so they got away with it. Most people I know who operate like this will play dumb when confronted. "What? I didn't know! Why didn't you guys say something?" etc. etc. You just need to be firm. When I finally worked up the courage to be more confrontational with people, I found they were more respectful and thoughtful in the future. People act the way you let them act. As for Blue Heron, that's totally different. Thank goodness they were your parents; parents are oh so forgiving of our horrible little faults, aren't they? Bless them all. They were probably just happy to see their babies were all having a good time. Mon Dec 05 16:05:42 -0800 2005 1697355 0 nooodles 5 1697368 Sounds very passive aggressive (not Blue Heron's situation, the OP's) to me. . . almost bordering on bullying or at least deliberately trying to see just how much they could get away with. I'd avoid socializing, or at least, going out to dinner with these folks. Mon Dec 05 17:06:00 -0800 2005 1697360 0 phoebe 5 1697373 well stated. if we had a chance to look at the wine list, maybe we could have done as you suggested, but she just took it and ordered away. for next time though, yes. i totally agree that they are probably the type of people you are describing and that people act the way we allow. Mon Dec 05 18:51:17 -0800 2005 1697360 0 wow i'm a dog 4 1697362 Please, don't feel bad. Not your fault. If I were you, during the end-of-the-year festivities I would take my parents (and my parents only) to the restaurant of their choice, and I would do my best not to talk about that "dreadful evening". At least they did not have to foot the bill for $150 a bottle wine... Mon Dec 05 16:30:48 -0800 2005 1697355 0 Lamaranthe 4 1697363 You are the exception; but with business associates (especially superiors), I think a different scenario transpired. Mon Dec 05 16:35:40 -0800 2005 1697355 0 Karl S 2 1697357 i can see how this would happen with a large group, but our party was quite small. they knew i was the designated driver because we drove them and asked me what i was going to eat since they know i am a vegan. Mon Dec 05 15:47:03 -0800 2005 1697352 0 wow i'm a dog 3 1697390 they invited you... but you were the DD and drove them to dinner? sheesh... for that they should have bought YOU dinner. or at least let you pay for your meals and NOT the alcohol you didn't drink. but given it was a work related event, I think it'd be best to let this one go.. and just avoid these situations in the future. Tue Dec 06 15:09:29 -0800 2005 1697357 0 withalonge 1 1697359 i won't bother repeating everyone else's expressions of outrage and sympathy, but i will tell you that not everyone with expensive tastes like your "hosts" have behaves as boorishly as your hosts. i have one dear friend who has a big appetite for both food and drink and rather expensive tastes. at the end of more than one group dinner when someone suggests splitting the bill evenly she's spoken up and said "no, that's not fair - i had more drinks than most people, and the most expensive entree, and my own dessert. other people had a lot less." then she'll pick up the bill, total up what she had, add an overly generous amount for tax and tip, and pass it on to the next person to do the same, thus saving the people who ate and drank less any potential embarassment. once when we talked about handling this type of situation she said "it's very simple - i'm not going to feel guilty about what i order, but i also don't expect anyone else to pay for it." Mon Dec 05 15:51:16 -0800 2005 1697331 0 SH 2 1697361 Yes! That's the way to go. There is no shame for being open about it: this 2005 and North America. Let's say Good-bye to the Old World and obsolete manners, when and where talking about money was indecent. Why not discuss it frankly with the others at the time you are planning a reunion? So everyone is free to choose what they like, drink as much as they like. Then each of you pays for what they ordered; all is fair and you are all happy, with no bitter feelings. Mon Dec 05 16:22:31 -0800 2005 1697359 0 Lamaranthe 2 1697364 That is my preferred approach when I am such a person. Another approach is simply for me to pay my fair (NOT equal share) and let others who ate/drank more or less equally (within $5 of each other, let's say) divide their remaining portion equally (this approach also works if I happen to be eating/drinking much less than others, too). Mon Dec 05 16:38:11 -0800 2005 1697359 0 Karl S 2 1697369 Yup, I have friends like this, and have sometimes been that person, and occasionally we have actually fought (in a friendly way, of course) over them paying too much. Actually, it says a lot that in my group of actual friends (as opposed to forced "friends"), overpaying is the norm. Obviously, you were in a different situation. You could take the direct approach, as suggested by the other posters. One thing I have done is when the bill gets passed around I tally up what I've ordered, add tax and tip and then contribute that amount. If someone says I didn't put in enough, I just say "Oh really? My food total was x and my drink total was y, and I added tax and a 20% tip. Did I do my math wrong?" Since I have effectively stated that I am only paying for my share and they have only implied that everything is being split equally, it makes it more awkward for them to then say that I need to subsidize other people. It has worked in every case so far. I suppose if I ever did come across a situation where someone still challenged me after that I would pay more without another word, but I certainly would use every excuse in the book to never go out with them again. Mon Dec 05 18:00:55 -0800 2005 1697359 0 Jujubee 3 1697376 Well said! Mon Dec 05 18:59:32 -0800 2005 1697369 0 ricepad 2 1697378 YES! Could not have said it better myself. Perfect. That's what I do too in similar situations. I don't eat in really expensive restaurants unless it's a very special occasion, but regardless, if I'm with someone I care about, a friend, someone who has less income, I always try to pay even more than my share. One of my favorite sayings in that situation is, "There's an unequal distribution of resources in this society..." Mon Dec 05 20:03:05 -0800 2005 1697359 0 Niki Rothman 2 1697383 I hope you are describing me. If not, your friend is my kind of person. I concur. Mon Dec 05 23:27:52 -0800 2005 1697359 0 eve 1 1697377 I definitely would ask about the payment arrangements in advance the next time you are approached by these people. It's very creepy, I have to agree with you. What makes it even creepier is the imbalance in the power dynamic. Excuse me, but in a situation where a boss invites an employee to celebrate along with the boss, my assumption is the obviously more prosperous boss is the HOST. And the fact that they ate and drank like kings while you abstained, well it steams me too! You imply there are other people beside you who also had to pay-up big time to "honor" this inconsiderate person and inconsiderate spouse. Can you approach the other "guests" and discuss your feelings with them discreetly? Mon Dec 05 19:57:56 -0800 2005 1697331 0 Niki Rothman 2 1697385 thanks for the reply. you hit it on the head. i am dying to talk about it with them, but they work for the same company and don't feel it's appropriate. (did i mention i'm *dying* to?) Mon Dec 05 23:45:55 -0800 2005 1697377 0 wow i'm a dog 2 1697387 You need to make some new friends. Tue Dec 06 09:32:36 -0800 2005 1697377 0 Beevod 3 1697402 Wow, that was a helpful post. ( as I guess is this one, sorry for the bandwith usage Chowhound site) She didn't say they were exactly "friends" more...."company dinner" sort of thing. Dinner with the boss and such. Wed Dec 07 13:36:37 -0800 2005 1697387 0 a 1 1697379 you're definitely not being petty, and i don't blame you for being peeved. maybe if you get invited to dinner again by these people you can tell them that you would love to and appreciate the invite, but the last dinner ended up being pretty pricey and put an unexpected dent in your finances, and you and your significant other are in the process of trying to save up for a *insert big purchase here*. maybe this will passive-aggressively get your feelings across that you had to shell out more money than you thought was right and more than you could afford. it might even get them to think twice about splitting the bill evenly the next time they go out and order expensive items. or maybe your SO's superior will realize that she's not paying your SO enough and will give him/her a raise!! ok, maybe not. Mon Dec 05 21:49:20 -0800 2005 1697331 0 rebs 2 1697388 >>maybe if you get invited to dinner again by these people you can tell them that you would love to and appreciate the invite, but the last dinner ended up being pretty pricey and put an unexpected dent in your finances, and you and your significant other are in the process of trying to save up for a *insert big purchase here*. >> Agreed. Except, you don't even need to justify it by saying you're saving for a certain thing. That makes it sound like it's partly your problem. Just say dining out at that level is not in your budget and don't go out with these people again. If they are like my relatives who do this, the less discussion the better. Otherwise they will persuade you to go out with them again and find some new way to stick you with the bill. It is tempting to explain to these people what they are doing, but on some level they already know. If this is a work colleague with whom it would be rude to refuse to dine altogether, invite them to come to your house instead. If they ask if they can bring anything say, sure, bring the wine. Tue Dec 06 09:39:44 -0800 2005 1697379 0 bibi rose 2 1697399 No. Bad idea IMO. It sounds VERY passive-aggressive, and also way too submissive. No need to broadcast what you're "trying to save up for", etc. Just don't go next time, make use a polite but firm excuse. If you want to be open about the issue, just say "I can't afford it" and let it rest at that. Wed Dec 07 10:41:10 -0800 2005 1697379 0 Sir Gawain 1 1697384 the situation is complicated by the sharing of bottles of wine. Actually, anything shared. too often, it is never shared equally. (my pet peeve is the person who orders another bottle of wine or dish when the table really doesn't need it and it goes to waste--if you can take it home, who get's it?). I admit, I am guilty of doing this--ordering a second bottle which I had to drink myself pretty much. It's a mistake I won't be making again. We split the bill and my sister has never let me forget this mistake--thus my new pet peeve. When you order your own entrees or drinks, the splitting or allocating is easier. Mon Dec 05 23:34:09 -0800 2005 1697331 0 eve 1 1697391 Buy this (see link) or something like it, wrap it, put their name on it and leave it under the Company Christmas tree. It would have to make them wonder. Link: http://www.westernsilver.com/etiquette.html Tue Dec 06 15:19:59 -0800 2005 1697331 0 Bobfrmia 1 1697392 You're right to be peeved, but there's is damn little you can do about the past. What they did was in poor taste, and in the future you'd be justified in being too "busy" to attend functions they "host". I've been hurt a couple of times in these situations, I chalk it up as an education in human nature. Tue Dec 06 15:55:14 -0800 2005 1697331 0 Larry 1 1697395 She was not a "host" if you had to chip in - she was an "organizer." Hosts don't charge their guests. I'd be plenty unhappy, like you. Want to avoid this in the future? If you can't beg off the invitation, and these antics continue, I would take this treatment into serious consideration when evaluating my future at wherever this person is a "superior." The attitude will, I promise, be reflected in the company's attitude toward your husband at bonus time, retirement time, advancement time. You could just ... uhhh ... not go. I'm from the South, and I have managed to convince my Northener wife to employ a little Southern strategy when I just can't stand going somewhere: as a great kindness to me, she gets on the phone, smiles and says (picture Scarlett O'Hara reading this speech) "I know you were counting on us, and we did so miss every one of you, but I came down with a case of the vapors and had to take to bed, and Wayne simply couldn't tear himself away from my side out of concern." Tue Dec 06 23:42:35 -0800 2005 1697331 0 Wayne Keyser 1 1697400 I read about half these responses. You are not being petty, but only you and your better half can decide how much these socializations with the "somewhat superior" and his wife are "worth" to you. You imply that opting out of dining with them may not be a choice, so only you and your spouse can make a determination of what the repercusions may be if you follow thru on some of the suggested remedies at the next get-together. Wed Dec 07 12:33:16 -0800 2005 1697331 0 Hal S. 2 1697404 I would just pleasantly say "We can't afford it!" If they want to ask you about that, great. If they want to pick up the tab for the wine in the future - which is what I think should happen when someone orders something specially expensive without permission from the assembled diners - even better. But I would never expect people to act any differently than they have shown you is their way . . . so expect a repeat if you go again without saying anything. Wed Dec 07 14:04:09 -0800 2005 1697400 0 pitu 1 1697455 i like "no but thanks very much." -- you're not obliged to explain anything. Fri Dec 09 07:13:12 -0800 2005 1697331 0 hobokeg 1 1697490 1. maybe i'm old-fashioned, but we assumed since we were invited to this dinner (celebrating the host) and since they made the reservation, planned the seating and selected the wine, that they would be providing the meal. what do you think? also, does the fact that he is a superior to us mean anything? Well, you may indeed BE old fashioned, but good manners never go out of style, and bad manners will never be stylish. I tend to ask outright about the payment arrangements: “Wow. You’re going to be treating all of us? That is so generous!” This would allow the “host” to disclose that in fact, he was not hosting anyone. IMO, the fact that “he is a superior” means a lot. In many workplaces this behavior would be considered not only boorish but also abusive. What is the company policy about giving and receiving gifts? 2. apart from avoiding dining with them again, what is the appropriate etiquette to avoid this situation in the future? do we discuss wine options/prices before ordering? I think that Miss Manners might say that in the future you should just say something like, “I’m so sorry, but we are not able to attend.” If the offender offends again by asking you why you can’t attend, I think she’d say to respond with something like, “Oh, I would never dream of burdening you with my personal concerns.” 3. would you be steamed, too? or are we just being petty? Yes, I’d be steamed, and no, you aren’t being petty. You are have been abused by a person in authority who really has no business being in authority. I’m in an unprecedentedly (is that a word?) luxurious place in life, so take what I’m about to say with a grain (or a shaker) of salt. I would personally be very tempted to print out this entire exchange and send it to the president or CEO of the company (I’m assuming that the offending party is not the president or the CEO). Or, maybe, create a free email account and email a link to this discussion to that person. Being that you are not the actual employee, if there is any integrity there (again, apply the salt), that president or CEO will take someone down to parade rest. If I were that president/CEO, I would really want to know about this. I think that the respondents on this thread (I’ve read every one so far) would also want to know if their middle manager was abusing employees in this way. Again, I have the luxury of being able to walk away from my job. This kind of thing just isn’t right. It p!sses me off. Not that I'm the least bit opinionated, mind you. Fri Dec 09 20:26:23 -0800 2005 1697331 0 BeaN